This is the only thread on the blog that will be moderated for hassling and bickering, because it serves as a sort of welcome mat for new people, who are interested in reading other people’s stories, and who would like to post their own stories. Of course, this thread is open for wide-ranging discussions, but, if you want to brawl, and don’t know where else to go, you can choose another thread — any other thread — or go pick a fight in the Neverending Thread.
One common theme I have seen with former AAs is that there is often a moment of clarity when they finally agree with that voice in their head that 
something was amiss, and that the program that they had signed up for – a quit drinking fellowship – was indeed much more. Sometimes it is a single incident, like the actions of a sponsor, or something said by another member that was particularly absurd, that gave their head a shake. With others, it was simply the totality of it all, and they knew that if they were subjected to one more aphorism, or one more trite slogan, they felt like their heads might explode.
What was your moment? When did you finally have enough? Was it a particular event, or was it a process. I would be interested to hear from those who have left AA. A reverse drunkalog, if you will. What caused you leave, and what difference has it made for you.
[This thread was published by MA on March 16, 2010. The stories that people have posted in the comments shouldn't be buried, so we're making this a permanent page. Please go read the comments on the original thread, and if you're inspired, post your story here or in the original thread.]
After reading Orange Papers for several months, I refused to believe the “hyperbole”. I thought Orange was missing the point. I was still convinced that 12 Steps, no matter what the controversy, offers a path to wholeness. Then, after 2-3 years of marriage issues, to include tons of verbal abuse, my sig other threw in the towel to Al-Anon to get help/support dealing with issues stemming from her Mom. She was followed out to her car alone, on 2-3 occasions by same perpetrator. I went to an Al-Anon meeting to confront this man. I told him what he had been doing. In all empathy, he was in a stage of grief because his wife had been on her deathbed. His legs folded to the floor. He did not know what to think, or say. He was so pathetic. At that point I walked from the 12 Stepp rooms forever after 10-12 years as a very vocal (and sometimes disturbing!) member. I haven’t returned in about 4-5 years. I am 20 years sober. About that..I stopped counting. Doesn’t matter. I wasn’t a drunk to begin with, yet AA said there are no accidents. I
i know this is prolly obvious to the owners, but “the original thread” is gone, i think? i loved reading it. though, i also loved reading michael’s comment, too.
Thanks, violet. Fixed!
I feel I am now on the point of quitting AA. My last “chair” will be on Wednesday and I have given meetings a good and fair chance. Last Wednesday I saw a poor woman told off along with other group members, because they were “not confining their discussions to their own drinking problems”………apparently as per the blue card. They were discussing this woman’s husband, also an alcoholic, and how she should cope with his behaviour in her sobriety. This is just one of many incidents typical of AA where the big book thumpers try to control the others under the guise that they understand the programme better.
In my 2 years of sobriety my own personal situation and happiness has not improved even though I never feel like drinking. My rational thoughts tell me my drinking behaviour got me here and that is enough really. When I look around the rooms, even those with the strongest AA message have nothing I want. I really mean that. They sound like the meaning of life is understanding a 12 step step programme. For me it’s not and this is not a way to go forward in life. It may be something that keeps others from drinking but in truthfulness there is nothing more likely to send me back to the bottle than doing AA any longer.
I feel genuinely sad that I have arrived at this conclusion but I’m not a quitter and you can only try something for so long before you have to change. This is exactly like my drinking. I had to change. It’s sad for me to see so many other folk wasting their lives here too but I need for once to look after what’s best for me.
I think it was the third friend who committed alcoholic suicide because he believed his only options were jails, institutions, or death. They all had other options but had accepted the cult doctrine through repetitive brainwashing and the acceptance of the AA alternative reality.
Or, it could have been when my sponsor told me who I could talk to.
Or it could have been being attacked physically by mentally deranged AA members that didn’t like what I was saying.
All that matters now is that I know the truth, AA is dangerous.
I was in and out for a while.
It was difficult for me to break away.
Jack Trimpey first introduced me to the idea that AA was a cult. I think that someone in a yahoo chat room may have reccomended “The Small Book.”
It was like a veil was lifted. After years of relapse and blaming myself, I finally understood that faith healing is not a valid treatment for alcoholism.
I discussed my concerns at meetings and people did their best to convince me that I was crazy, and that I was gonna die.
I left for a while… I relapsed and went crawling back.
Tried their steps again and again.
Then I started noticing how disfunctional the whole thing was.
I was four months sober at one point, and a former sponsor (one who had insisted that I stop taking depression meds, leading directly to a suicide attempt) insisted that I needed hospitalization, because I was homeless and living in my truck.
I told him I was gonna quit smoking and he scolded me saying… “You are one fucked up alcoholic! Next you’ll try to quit jerking off!”
I had a job selling tickets in the hallway at a Saturday night meeting in Franklin Massachusetts. I was just outside the door in the hall when a guy approached with tears in his eyes. He asked if he could speak to me in private, so we stepped outside the door and he burst out crying, “I am bicurious and I was wonderign if you are too! I was hoping we could get together!”
On another occasion, I had been attending a mixed ALANON and AA meeting every monday night. It was a Big Book meeting with usually around a hunderd people in attendance. I had asked my mom if she’d like to come along and learn more about AA. Halfway through the meeting a guy raised his hand and began to speak. He went into gret detail about how he was having urges to have sex with his mother and what positions he’d like to get her in. My Mom was shocked.
I tried AA over and over… It never worked… They always blamed it on me… and I had little reason to doubt them.
I’ve been sober for three and a half years now without AA. Dumping the doctrine was the best thing I ever did.
I had to work real hard at deprogramming.
Thank you all for your participation in moving to expose AA for what it really is… A dangerous religious cult.
WOW I feel like I have been living behind the Iron Curtain and through the internet just contacted the outside world for the first time!
god is love but it wont keep you sober.
My moment would have to be when a so-called friend told me to beware of my six year anniversary. He said, “people get their minds back.” All I could think was, you mean I lost my mind in AA? Uh oh! From that point on I noticed how people were always talking about “dedicated” members that disappeared somewhere between six and eight years.
Interesting, I stopped going to meetings completely in year seven. I got my mind back, and boy had I missed it!
Interesting, I have heard this same thing. I have heard this referred to as “The Twilight Years.” I have heard other names, too, I just forgot them, is all. I have also heard–as I am sure you have too, that you get your marble back at five years. Um? Just a trick to get people to stay. Te miracle happened, and it continues to happen more and more upon LEAVING AA.
The cult of suggestive threats.
Examples include: Dont work the steps and you will not lead a fullfulling life, Dont become rigorously honest and you will drink, Do service work if you wish to gain acceptance, Stick with the winners if you want to become a winner, Study the big book if you want the answer to all your problems, Leave AA and you are doomed.
One thing I have noted however is that AA does condone seeking outside help. I asssume this is its attempt to have its cake while eating it.
I did feel extremely guilty about taking anti depresssants while in AA but luckily my sponser was on meds as well. It was our dirty little secret
Peace out
AA owes its origin to Christian fundamentals (except for 12 Steps influenced by OxFord cult and Ouija boards). The irony is that AA does not thank the Lord Jesus Christ anywhere in any of its literature. It will thank doorknobs, Allah, Bhudda and motorcycles, but not Jesus Christ. Odd for an organization who owes so much of its beginning to the humility and grace of Sam Shoemaker. What does this say about the intent of AA?? It says that AA Pharisees will appease to hedonists and pagans, but to legitimize Christ in a single sentence is unacceptable. Yet, billions have found peace and serenity through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
I was a devoted member of AA for 7 years. I went to 1-2 meetings every day for 4 years and then cut down to 3-4 meeting a week. At 7 years of sobriety I gave up my service positions and cut back to 1-2 meetings a week and returned to study. I became isolated in AA and I felt used up. I would feel depleted after going to a meeting. I would hear things being said about me like “stay away from her she doesn’t go to enough meetings” Or “she’s dangerous”. Members would say to me comments like “what meeting have you been going too” “How’s your head” ‘Be careful” “You know what happens to people that don’t go to meetings, they end up busting, going insane, committing suicide or in prison.” After 9 years of AA and not drinking or taking meds I felt like I was going insane. I was still was suffering from panic disorder and chronic anxiety which I had been diagnosed with as a child. I had been acting “as if “ in AA for so long I had lost touch with my true feelings and emotions. I was told by members I wasn’t working the steps hard enough that’s why the miracle hadn’t happened yet. “meetings meetings meetings”. I had had many sponsors over the years and I slept with the big book by my bed for 9 years and had a small one in my handbag. I would read it on the bus and almost every night, I would say the serenity prayer obsessively (and still do) and then say the step 2,3, 7,11 prayers and then write on step 10, go to my home group, and share every thing with my sponsor at the time.
If I spoke my truth about my anxiety and phobias AA members would say “go to another meeting” “Your level of anxiety is the distance between you and God” “do another 4 & 5 step” “do more service” “If you don’t have it you can’t give it away” ” you don’t have emotional sobriety” etc..and the list goes on.
In the end I felt I burnt out in AA. I dropped my meeting down to 1 a month out of fear of leaving. Then in a space of 4 months two members from my home group died, one from suicide at 20 years of sobriety and service in AA and the other devoted member from falling over drunk. And then two other respected members died, one from binge drinking and the other shot himself in the head.
That was when I realized how depressed I was, how desperate I felt, and I realized how unsupported I was by my fare-weathered friends in AA. I felt like I had hit a brick wall and had no one who would listen to me. I stared paying attention to my feelings and notice how much fear I felt around people. I dropped my study’s and I started seeing a drug and alcohol counselor at 9 1/2 years sober and sharing my truth, without being judged as someone who is dis-eased, immoral or not working the steps. I then ended up taking mindfulness meditation classes, art therapy and stopped going to AA.
My sponsor freaked out and told me my head was setting me up to bust. “You don’t need counseling” she said “you shouldn’t be feeling this way, you’ve come to far in your recovery” “I know you better than you do” she said. “Your not your self”. “You know what your problem is ?” “Your too shy, insecure, and you have low-self esteem.” “I can’t be friends with you if you don’t change.” “You need to change.” ” You need to work the steps” “Oh my God, your at a rock bottom”"This shouldn’t be happening”"Get back to AA and pray for your defects of character to be removed right now.” then she yelled” Get on your hands and knees now and pray, pray for your defects of character to be removed now.” “You are going to bust if you don’t change” “I’ll call you back tomorrow to check in to see if you’ve busted.” I’m now over 10 years sober and I’ve cut all ties with AA.
I
Powerful testimony to the dysfunction in AA. I’m grateful for so many insights and the opportunity to write about my own regrettable experiences in AA. Ex-SOB’s saga of mind-control abuse from her sponsor sounds like the kind of stuff I heard over and over again from people who needed my help, not the other way around.
My first sort-of sponsor ended up leaving his wife for some gal in the group half his age, and the second sort-of sponsor reminded me at once of Rasputin. The latter’s main job in life appears to be sponsorship, and he’s got the time since he lives off his wife’s family’s money.
There are a lot of very seriously troubled individuals in AA, and the most troubled of them all comprise that cadre of true believers who pounce on newcomers to be their sponsor. The incessant drama and intrigue, servile praising of the program that takes up half the meeting, inane slogans, and abuse and indoctrination of newcomers “keeping it green” for the oldtimers was enough to leave me feeling depressed after just about every meeting.
After one meeting where I’d raised objections to some nonsense, one old creep with 40+ years gave me the evil eye like he’d kill me if he could, and another brushed into me on his way out. The fellowship in AA is pure bull, and relies on nothing less than instilling the fear of death in people. Some “fellowship”. They never got to me, and so I payed the price by being effectively marginalized despite all my time.
As they love to say, “If you want what we’ve got…,” and all I can say is they can keep it. I now look forward to meeting these people outside the rooms to make a particular point of telling them how well I’m doing without them.
Another reason why I left AA was the 5th step.
After doing it(fearlessy and thoroughly) I realised all the fluffy promises that were mentioned were definately overrated.
To be honest I felt cheated and would really like to know what you guys felt like after doing this life changing step. (if you got that far of course
OMG that is very scary! Love and tolerance is our code for a reason. It I quite going to meeting because the members are still sick then I am not practicing the 12 principles.. even if I think I have recovered.. I am wrong. If I have true love and tolerance for the members of the group then i will have serenity even if sick shit happens. On the days I am irritable and discontent.. I pray and do what I can to model a good recovery program. And I remember that love and tolerance is my code! the 12 step programs works!
I have read all of the above comments. To all of the posters, except the last one, I will say, the 12-steps didn’t let you down, people did. It’s all about the message, not the messenger. Principles, not personalities. People are not perfect, therefore they will let you down. How about focusing on the universal message of “spirituality.” And to the individual who posted about suicide and death: People in all walks of life who have never stepped foot into a 12-step meeting have committed suicide or died from drinking. So, what are you talking about? The whole world is filled with chaos. Are we going to blame 12-step programs? How silly! Think about it!
To each his/her own on their spiritual journey in life. Whatever it takes. Some of those who have decades of sobriety are out working and living their lives in the “real” world, setting examples and planting seeds, thus not in meeting rooms. And some spend all their time in meetings. It doesn’t matter. Whatever works! Live life and stop complaining! It’s not about the “blame game.”
Sorry for the double post. It was there, then disappeared. I hit the submit button again and now it’s there twice. Must be a lag in the system.
Hi filmrevu, I deleted the double post… Sorry about the delay. We have it set up so that a new IP address goes into the pending file automatically — just to make sure we’re not letting spammers through. Once your first post is approved, all your future comments will appear immediately.
filmrevu
that is a distinction without a difference. AA is AA. The people are AA; 12 step is AA. They are indivisible.
@tintop – I don’t think so. That is the same as saying all people representing every organization or religion in the world “are” the religion. There are convicted murderers, rapists, thieves, who claim to be Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. Are you saying they define their religion? That’s called prejudice and stereotyping. Written doctrines and philosophies are practiced differently amongst all of us. How can you label a whole group by a handful of individuals?
The principle is that of calculated risk. I am very aware that most AA attendees are harmless. It would have been far better for you to have accepted the truth of their stories. Instead, you used the old “not AA” line. Sorry, but I do not buy that line. AA is what it is.
I was introduced to AA in 1975 and had a lot of the experiences the posters above have had. I went on to 23 alcohol and drug treatment programs none of which brought me any long term sobriety. in 2001 after over 7 years on the methadone program I gave up and went to my last treatment program of which AA was it’s main focus. The main difference between AA and treatment is; treatment wants you think your way into a better way of living and AA wants you to act your way into a better way of living. Today I have 9 years of sobriety and am free of bi-polor meds and my ptsd is manageable, I have pain issues but as of yet don’t require medication for my problems. Did I do this all through AA expletive-no. Did I use the principals laid out in the big book, which are the same principals laid out in the bible, the Koran or learned by the lucky in kindergarden yes. Will I stay in AA don’t know. I applaud anyone working on recovery and wish them success how ever they get there if cutting the heads off of chickens and dancing around the fire naked had a large provable success rate move over I’d be there. The bottom line is I am responsible for the choices I make and I am the one who will suffer the consequences of my behavior and the results are an indication of what course corrections I will need to make. Thanks for the thread and all the comments here all food for thought.
@Stoneseeker – Thank you for your story. You made an important point:
” … responsible for the choices I make …” I’m all for what ever method it takes for all to be (excuse the cliche’) “happy, joyous, and free,” as long as we don’t step on other’s toes along the way. I am enjoying my ride through life with all it’s challenges and ups and downs. I was given what I call a gift of the 12-steps 25 yrs. ago and am grateful that I can cope differently than I did when I was younger. It’s my journey and I take full responsibility for it. Do I still make mistakes. Of course! I think none of us would be human if we didn’t. The difference now is that I make less wrong choices and have a higher since of awareness. My motto is: Focus on the solution, not the problem. I wish nothing more than happiness for all posting up here and hope everyone finds their way. Happy Friday and Happy Earth Day week to all. Peace!
I did all that without aa. I did not need soul surgery or moral rearmament or a sponsor or the 12 steps or good orderly direction [ aka "god"]. I am as happy joyous and free as I decided to be. I have been ‘recovered’ for years. I determined what I needed to do and got on with it. You can do the same any time that you decide to. Your call.
filmrevue–suggestion: as you are clearly a 12 step zealot, try alanon. you will learn there to focus on yourself and not to focus on others. try focussing on your own ‘”spirituality”‘ and and not worry about ours. i am not sure i am really blaming aa; i am pointing out how sick of an organization it is–the people and the program. the very 12, religious, not spiritual steps, are not ok as well. they might be for you. have fun with them. and gosh golly, well, i will try to refrain from callin’ ya silly.
filmrevu writes, “To all of the posters, except the last one, I will say, the 12-steps didn’t let you down, people did. It’s all about the message, not the messenger. Principles, not personalities. People are not perfect, therefore they will let you down. How about focusing on the universal message of “spirituality.”
It’s interesting that the “principles before personalities” card only seems to get played when discussing negative attributes of the membership. AA’ers rarely bring that up as long as they deem the ‘message’ to be positive.
It seems you don’t even hear many complaints when tradition-busting puff pieces get planted in the media, but as soon as a negative story appears, we get reminded about “principles before personality”. Apparently, it’s okay to share your experience as long as it follows the script, but if not, then people should shut up and focus on ‘spirituality’…
I stopped going to anything AA after 9 yrs. People in AA tend to stay sick. I mean really, why would you want to talk about alcoholism for the rest of your life. The last time I attended an AA anything it was a group anniversary and I thought I would stop in to see my ‘ old friends’. I had been an active member of that group for 4 years but i moved out of town so I couldnt attend there anymore. I sure wasnt greeted with open arms (or even many handshakes ) . A woman there who I knew pretty well over the years came up to me and looked at me and said “didnt you used to attend this mtg?’ I remember you. You better keep going to mtgs, remember the guy in the BB that was successful for 35 years then put his slippers on and drank himself to death!’ I couldnt believe it. She didnt say Hi Johnny how have you been’or anything like that. I guess thats what happens when your whole life revolves around AA for over 20 years. So sad.
filmrevu,
I want to make our position clear here: AA has no accountability. AAWS, Inc. has no interest but its bottom line. It’s a publishing company, and its concern is its copyright and its profits. The GSO does not take any responsibility for what happens in AA meetings. It is the public face of AA, but it denies accountability for anything that happens in AA. AA members are not representative of AA. Legally, they cannot speak for AA.
See how that all works out? AA answers to no one, and answers for nothing. The organization and the corporate entity do not involve themselves in AA meetings. And AA members are not representative of AA. But all of these entities support each other in their lack of accountability (co-dependent?) And so if anything unethical or irresponsible or abusive happens in an AA meeting, no one is responsible. It’s pretty nifty! Not only that, but AA doesn’t have to hold itself to any scientific or medical standards. Nothing: it doesn’t have to prove that it works and it doesn’t have to acknowledge any abuses and it is not legally accountable for anything.
Sweet!
But just because it all works out that way legally doesn’t mean that no one is actually responsible for what happens in AA. People are responsible, and, here at Stinkin Thinkin, we hold the very people on the front lines of AA responsible, the people who are either treating others abusively or covering for those who are. You are one of those covering for the abusers by making that “but isn’t that bigotry?” argument.
“That’s not AA” doesn’t wash. The legal structure makes sure that nothing is AA.
Just because you AA people, from the corporate level down to the lowly meeting-maker, have it worked out so that no one is legally liable, that doesn’t mean that no one is actually responsible. And because AA members are just as human as we are, we hold AA members responsible for what happens in meetings. If this shit happens in meetings, then the people who do it, and the people who whitewash it, are responsible.
You can either not give a good goddamn and continue to blow smoke up your own butts about your spirituality and your serenity and your success, or you can acknowledge that there’s a big freakin’ problem and do something about it. But, as long as you’re not doing anything about it, we will hold you responsible.
It’s pretty interesting that you’d compare AA to a religion, considering that AA denies that it is one. I don’t acknowledge the taboo against calling someone out for their retrograde beliefs. So, yeah, indeed, I would, and do, for instance, hold a Catholic person responsible for the abuses that go on in the Catholic Church, if they make a decision to deny fallibility — if they blame the victim, make excuses, or turn a blind eye. I do. The dysfunction and the abuse thrive because of the blind-eyes and the defenses of actual people. They are the only ones who can inspire change, and so they are the ones I hold responsible.
If you have a problem with being held accountable for the abuses that characterize AA, then you can either leave AA or you can work for change.
Well said.
To critics of our muckracking, I think this site provides a fantastic educational tool for people unhappy in AA and scared to leave due to the brainwashing policies.
Without this site i would have still clung to the belief that turning my back on AA would spell certain doom for me.
Well said Friend.
Murray says
Another reason why I left AA was the 5th step.
After doing it(fearlessy and thoroughly) I realised all the fluffy promises that were mentioned were definately overrated.
To be honest I felt cheated and would really like to know what you guys felt like after doing this life changing st
When I did my 5th step I felt nothing. There was no big release, i didnt feel at peace and 1 with the universe (laughing). To be completely honest all the steps were a letdown. I mean Bill W never had a spiritual awakening after doing his own steps (if he did em) . Dr Bob never had one either according to his daughter Sue. But yet 70 some years later people still tout that they are happy joyous and free all the time from having worked the steps. I say its from not drinking anymore and has nothing to do with the steps. Stop drinking and your life should improve.
filmrevu
And to the individual who posted about suicide and death: People in all walks of life who have never stepped foot into a 12-step meeting have committed suicide or died from drinking. So, what are you talking about? The whole world is filled with chaos. Are we going to blame 12-step programs? How silly! Think about it!
filmrevu
Please have some compassion.
I don’t believe I blame AA for the suicide and death of my friends. I’m just sharing my experience in AA.
I had found it devastating that my friends had died. I’m not blaming AA for their deaths. They were in my AA group for many years and had been of great support. What I found disturbing was peoples reactions to their deaths. People’s attitudes were “they weren’t working the steps” and “they are not at fault, they were incapable of being honest with themselves.” I was grief stricken and need someone to talk too, I had no one left in AA I could talk to therefore I sort outside help from a counselor.. And thank God I did…
FTG, I wish this site were more popular than it already is. What I mean by this is that I wish there were more acclaimed literature out there that is anti-aa. I think your writing is good. This is saying a lot, as I am super picky. I cannot even bring myself to read what is on the best seller list much of the time, as I think it crap. I wish you would publish something. Just saying. I mean, your arguments are strong, you are not verbose, you have a definite voice that is interesting and easy to read. Have you thought about making your writing more public? It is better, in my opinion, than much of the published anti-aa stuff that is out there–not that I do not appreciate all the work that is out there already. Just saying is all.
@ jcal re: murray and his fifth step. i felt the same. then i worried that i did the fourth and fifth wrong! a few people told me, we;;, you need to do the steps right outta the big book. i knew on a deep level that there was no way to really do the steps perfectly and to try this hard was in fact ridiculous. i mean, i spent hours, and hours writing resentments–at age 22. what a shitty way to spend my time. i hate to say it, but i would been better of at some ridiculous party, drunk, making out with some nameless guy. ok, well, maybe not. i realized gradually that the way i did the steps was fine. i did the best i could. it is my belief that people who go on and on about being rocketed into another dimension after doing the steps are exaggerating and also are not that deep or smart. they are prolly people who have never been to therapy and who have been super tigh lipped all of forever. i am not this way. the stuff in my fourth step was just repeating what i had said in therapy. a lot of people with ptsd (like moi) feel resentments basically in a scary way, um, cuz we have ptsd. this is NOT something aa can fix. for me anyway. i did feel cheated at times. but i look at who was making this promise. i feel sad that i was naive enough to believe it.
Hi violet. I really appreciate that! Thank you.
I sometimes think that the subject would be perfect for an expose in a magazine, like Harpers, but then I think it would be like trying to sell them a hit piece on Mr. Rogers.
Yeah I think my rocket was a bit faulty when i was trying to rocket into another dimension.
I ran out of fuel next to some poxy roadside diner inbetween dimensions.
Man this inter dimensional travel is tough.
@Ex-SOB
Dear “Ex-SOB,” I would like to offer you a sincere apology regarding how I addressed your comments. I am truly sorry for the loss of your friends, and I can clearly see that you did not receive the kind of support that one would expect when losing a loved one. I’m glad for you that a counselor could help and hopefully ease the pain that you were or are going through. Again, my apologies.
why i left the a-of-a
by speedy (pete)
i left the a-of-a so that i could re-join the human race. my life is infinitely happier & full of love, friendship, & genuine NON-CONTIGENT support — support i’m humbled & honored to give in return.
the end
My experience was with ACOA and Al-anon. I belonged to the same group since 1997. It was a help in the beginning, but the group got hijacked by this very controlling woman who took over the meeting in steps. She became the meeting guru and basically thought she owned it. Chairing all the meetings, giving unwanted advice, and basically dictating to everyone that was present.
She gave advice on meds., family issues, finances, just about everything. She got worse as time went by. She was the treasurer for 8 years and I never saw a financial report. Finally, enough was enough when she started taking attendance at meetings. I stopped going, but then talked to her about my concerns. She went ballistic! Said she was the meeting leader. I called WSO, which was useless. Then said I was coming to the meeting myself to raise these issues of dominance, control, and anonymity. She called a family member (she knew my last name, big mistake don’t think you have anonymity in these groups) and told them of her “concern” for me. Fortunately this person knew the story and cut her off. Bottom line: when I pushed it, she left the meeting with the treasury (200-300) and refuses to have any contact with anyone. I have since graduated (I was questioning a lot of the BS anyway). Feel much better, and more positive.
There are a lot of control freaks in these groups. Anyone have any similar stories?
Randy
speedy — aa is not the real world. Most normal people are fine 99%+ of the time. They provide aid, support, friendship , good advice, etc on a regular basis. That is the way people act most of the time. And, when they do not, there are reasons which can be discerned.
After reading the comments, I can’t help wondering if you all went to the same program I did. No one ever told me that AA was the *only* way to stay sober. In fact, it was my sponsor who suggested I find a therapist, telling me that when you need help, you get it.
AA works for some people and not others. It didn’t work for most of you, and you left. That should have been the end of the story–you found something else that worked for you and went on with your life, right? Except you didn’t–you spend valuable time sitting on line talking about how much you dislike AA. What do you hope to accomplish here?
AA is not the real world. Being a sportsman (yes!) I tend to start playing more tennis at this time of year in preparation for our league matches. Invariably this gives rise to much consternation within the rooms about how I could possibly chose tennis over AA! Well it’s quite simple really. One of the fundamental flaws I see within AA is people don’t have normal lives. They do AA in everything they do and forget everything they ever did before drink took over. No wonder they seek a Higher Power and spiritual guidance to relieve the boredom that prevails……………
JPR — quite so.
I’m trying to figure out why I stayed in AA for so long. My mind was made up, and conclusions arrived at many years before I finally left for good.
@Heather says:
Are you kidding, Heather? Did you just drop in here, insult everyone and then demand an explanation written just for you?
Hi Heather
There are countless explanations all over this website. Take the time and have a look if your interested.
Regards
Heather,I’ll stop coming to these sites when they stop forcing people into your religion. But then again maybe not. I will still probably bash your dipshit religion unmercilessly because it’s stupidity demands it.
That was a “typical AA” answer from Heather………I can’t help wondering if you all went to the same program I did. Yes I did, Heather. The same one that has no factual basis and which has let most of us down. Same old drivel, dressed up slightly differently, if you can’t get the programme it’s your fault blah blah blah.
As for that Sponser suggesting a therapist, he obviously wasn’t working the steps hard enough as I thought all you ever needed was a Higher Power. I knew the programme was too complicated for me. Oh no…..it’s a simple programme for complicated people…….there I go again.
It is utter crap!
Here is a suggestion on worked for you Heather 1. you stopped ingesting alcohol 2. You got to relate with other alcoholics and 3. you went to therapy.
Guess what. you can take that and leave the rest(meaning 12 step drivel )
All the best
Off topic a bit, but I am a little vexed. Id like to know if the old christian saying “god only helps those who help themselves” is a paradox.
To me this really sounds like a mind f**k.
If I helped myself I guess I wouldnt need Gods help.
If we were to put this into an AA context asking God to remove our dastardly defects would fall on deaf ears. Perhaps the big G would want us to help ourselves by seeking therapy etc thus absolving him from needing to take these defects away in the first place. As we all know he has alot on his plate what with creating planets etc. Perhaps this saying is just a simple memo to say I dont have enough time in the day to micro manage your lousy drunk ass.
I wish he could have told me direct via a spiritual experience.
correction Here is a suggestion on what worked for you Heather
Also a note to the editor:
I resent the fact that my visual representation here is a purple mutant crab with green dreadlocks, red clammy pincers and what looks to me like ducks feet.
Actually after seeing some of the other ones I think I could get accepted on beautifulpeople.com
To filmrevu Apology accepted
Mikeblamedenial says I’m trying to figure out why I stayed in AA for so long.
Same here, I stayed in AA for 2 years miserable and not realizing I had a choice to leave, other than death, or insanity.
To friendthegirl, Thank you for this site, I’ve found it freeing to share my experience with AA on this site and to let it all go.
Since I’d started to question things in AA, as you can imagine I hadn’t been asked to share in AA for quiet a long time. It’s been a long and not so easy transition to leave my life in AA and start over on the outside. I have no regrets, I’ve learned a lot from my time spent in AA but I’m now ready to move on to new experiences.
@friendthegirl: Generally speaking, I don’t see the point of wallowing in misery. It’s like what some men do after a divorce. Their wives were awful people–they cheated on them, ran up debt, kept a nasty house, etc. So they got divorced. BUT–when you talk to those guys, they go on and on and on about how awful their ex-wives are. Some of them go on for *years* like this. If she was that awful, why in hell would you keep talking about her? She’s gone and it’s time to move on with your life.
Same idea with AA–you’re free! You never have to go to another meeting, read the big book, etc. again in your life. You must feel a great sense of relief and want to put that behind you, right? To judge from this site, no. You want to wallow in it. Your mileage may vary, but that’s never seemed helpful or productive to me.
@JPR:
That’s why I mentioned the fact that my sponsor was the one who suggested therapy–she certainly did not suggest that if I worked the steps “all I needed was a Higher Power.” She understood that sometimes help outside of AA is necessary. If you need psychiatric help, you get it. You need medication, you get it. I’m sorry your sponsor was a zealot, but that doesn’t mean everyone else’s is too.
In life in general people assume that their experience is representative. It isn’t. Yes, people have negative experiences in AA. Some have positive ones. Mine has been positive, but I *don’t* assume that means AA works for everyone. You and a relative handful of others had a negative experience and conclude from your experience that the program as a whole is horrible.
In all seriousness, I hope every one of you finds what you need to live a less angry, happier and more contented life. I probably won’t be back, so God (or the Great Spaghetti Monster, or the universe or whatever) bless you.
heather — see ya
Hey, Heather, I have been hearing the same “why don’t you just shut up and leave” admonitions from the indoctrinated since I first began questioning steppist dogma, methods, religiosity, outcomes, and contradictions. Similarly, the “you seem really angry” chidings grew wearisome years ago. Here are three more pertinent ideas for you to mull over:
a) I did leave AA, as do most others who find themselves there for whatever reasons.
b) I am angry, since nothing AA promised was actually delivered, to me or anyone else.
c) I’m not going to shut up about my experiences there, so you might just as well get used to the fact that AA’s critics are becoming more numerous, and more vocal.
In all seriousness, happy trails.
@heather says:
To judge from this site, no. You want to wallow in it.
Heather, don’t you people have a slogan about contempt prior to investigation? You simply have not read the blog and you don’t have the remotest understanding of what we’re doing here. Your analogy is just plain bogus.
I probably won’t be back.
How very passive-aggressive: Drop in with nasty insults and ignorant mischaracterizations couched in serenity and blessings, and then split before anyone engages you.
Hi, Heather.
We answer a lot of questions, including yours, in the FAQ tab on the top of the page. Many other questions are answered in the posts themselves.
I did want to add that the reason we created this blog, was to help others who are struggling with AA, and are led to believe something is wrong with them when they question AA, like you are doing with us right now. If AA were a benign organization, we would just leave it and move on. The problem is, and this might be difficult for you to understand if you are currently under the spell of AA, it does a great deal of harm. It is ineffective as treatment, and regardless of what anyone in AA might tell you, no brain needs washing. This site raises awareness, but more than that, it helps people get out from under AA, and helps them to de-program. Hopefully, you will be among them sometime in the future.
We have had a tremendous response from people thanking us. More than we ever imagined. What started out as a lark, has turned into something more. We do appreciate you being here, as well as your comments. Stick around!
people like Heather do not matter very much. What matters is the people are able to debrief and clarify their experience in AA. The attitudes expressed by Heather belong to her. I do not want anyone here to detained by them for long.
Heather,
People who have been subjected to mind control tactics of AA may need to justify leaving AA by interacting with others who have suffered in similar ways.
Personally, I think it’s important to warn unsuspecting newcomers about the damage that one can suffer through the self-defeating recruitment process of your twisted little cult. As time goes on you will see that more and more of us are getting together to speak out against your outrageous religion.
I don’t know about the others here, but my goal is to bring AA down… to force Alcoholics Anonymous back into the church basement where it belongs. I have no intention of being polite about this. This cause is as important to me as writing that bogus AA bible (The Big Book) was to your patron saint Bill Wilson.
Exposing AA as a religious cult helps me to regain a sense of who I am. I care about people who have no clue as to what they should do about their drinking problems. I’ll always be here with my keyboard and the knowledge of what actually happens when an unsuspecting newcomer gets sucked into the AA mindtrap. I have a big fat soapbox now, and I intend to use it.
My goal in confronting AA is to regain my sense of who I am while relieving myself of those notions that were forced on me in AA.
AA was like mental rape. No one will ever scam me like that again. You are right… I’m free! I’m free to rant and rave… I’m free to live life without AA and the mental masturbation that goes along with it. I’m free to hate the frigging guts of sick people who ruin the lives of others. I’m free to share my experience, strength and hope with people who may have never known what you and your gang of religious thugs were up to.
You are also free… Please remember… No one forced you to participate in this discussion… You’re free! You never have to visit this blog, or read it, again in your life. You must feel a great sense of relief and want to put that behind you, right?
Other than that… I have no strong feelings about Alcoholics Anonymous.
@Donald Quinn
Ha. She split. That was a Serenity Bomb: “Why are you so angry?! I’m happy! Namaste! Bla bla bla bla I can’t hear you!!”
friendthegirl,
Maybe she’ll come back and bless us again.
Heather please come back. We need someone to bitch slap
@ heather
“After reading the comments, I can’t help wondering if you all went to the same program I did.”
somebody isn’t paying attention when the preamble’s being read.
it’s a ‘fellowship’ where you go to ‘meetings’ in order to share & enhance your ‘program’.
errr … wait a second …. .
is it THE ‘program’ or THE ‘solution’? (hold on. how’s it go again? … ain’t nobody too dumb … for … this … PROGRAM … right … it’s all coming back to me now. kinda like riding a bike — only it’s a bike that really, really sucks & the majority of people who ride it are empty & fatuous or loud & criminally stupid.)
yeah, we probably went to different ‘programs’. as evidenced by your fluent use of the ‘steppish’ tongue, apparently you stayed programmed.
peas, wuv, discrete logical operands,
speedy
real live recombinant angeraholic
Heather, you wouldn’t happen to be Mcgowdog. The 12 step dog,even though permanently banned from this blog has a running commentary about this site on his blog.If you’re not Mcfry, why don’t you go to his blog-maybe it will be more to your liking. You can read about how this site is going and spout platitudes with the five other people there. You can also read his post about being unemployed for the last 8 or so months and how fellow steppers call him a bum. You know times are tough. I have two part time jobs and go to professional school full time. No time for a meeting. I do have compassion for the unemployed but Mcdowg was such an asswipe when he was here that I can’t help but say this: Hey Mc Puppy how is that happy,joyous and free shit working out for you? Promises come true yet?
Ben F, real live relative free thinker
Heather wrote, “Same idea with AA–you’re free! You never have to go to another meeting, read the big book, etc. again in your life. You must feel a great sense of relief and want to put that behind you, right? To judge from this site, no. You want to wallow in it. Your mileage may vary, but that’s never seemed helpful or productive to me.”
I guess Heather has moved on, but I wanted to thank her for the lol I got from this comment. Steppers don’t do irony. Wallowing in the past isn’t just a way of life in AA, but ones very identity as a recovering alcoholic in AA demands constant comparison to the past, it’s the only way to make the idiocy seem reasonable. Steppers are constantly reminding each other of the importance of remembering “what it was like”, or the importance of not forgetting “that last drunk”. I sat through hundreds of meetings listening to people complain about the same things over and over again, I guess they weren’t so good at “letting go” either. Nearly every drunkalog I ever heard involved a good deal of wallowing in the past, at least until they got to the infomercial part. I know I reached a point where I got good and sick of rehashing my past because I really did want to let it go. It is a relief to be away from AA, and even more of a relief to be able to freely express a perfectly normal human emotion like anger.
Rick, (formerly Littlebuddy)
World of warning. Alcohol does want you to die. Death of religion, socially, professionally, etc. I went to meetings for 12 years. Been free for 5 years. Everysooften I fantasize about what it would be like to drink a cold beer. It doesn’t take willpower to stay from a drink. It’s a simple decision making process. Am I willing to lose whatever it is that I have done in life to life the life of hypocritical hedonistic pleasures?? Or lead a life of stoicism and have an opportunity to draw closer and nearer to G-d at will? I choose the latter. Because man is able to choose.
I quit drinking 16 1/2 years ago and I am more than happy to say that I have not stepped into a meeting room for 3 years now. I began to wane from my regular meeting schedule in 1999 when I discovered that there is a real world beyond my AA circle. Looking back, that was my initial moment of clarity when I made a decision to participate in a non AA activity and wanted to meet regular people that did not spout cliched slogans and rambled on about past dunkalogues ad naseum. As I progressed in weaning myself off of meetings, I began to question the dogma that was being spouted in meetings and realized that the subjects that the know nothing 12 steppers treated as taboo were nothing more than ways to shield me from seeking the truth. As a free thinker, I realized that the best thing I could do was to sever myself completely from the AA meeting rooms altogether. Needless to say, I’m not drunk or in jail but am a productive member of society. I am living true freedom today and that is freedom from conformity, collectivist group think and a stale cliched life.
Welcome, MGM. I’m really glad to hear that you are living free of all that.
Hey guys
I was wondering if there was any chance of letting those angry aa guys back on the forum? Its just I found it more interesting when we had aa zealots to debate with. I know that they got very unserene like when they were here last but maybe in there absence they have been working steps 6-9 really hard. Maybe they had a spiritual awakening and we can all just get along and trudge the road of happy destiny together.
murray, I am real weak on that.
they are boring, fatuous and take up space. my 2 cents
I sort of agree with Murray’s comments here. It’s interesting to see AA steppers have their say. I do actually believe that for some alcoholics the brainwashing, AA big book method is the only way to stop drinking. For the vast majority here, it wasn’t and certainly not a way to lead a balanced and happy life.
As I’ve mentioned here before, I got sober in AA. I don’t know what would have happened without it, but it has given me the knowledge to let others know it’s strengths (it has a few) and shortcomings. Luckily I now have the choice to avoid meetings and seeing some of the stuff posted on here just reinforces that view.
The problem was not what they said. We know what they believe, and we want them to give their opinions. We even invited them to post on the blog, and we still would allow that. The problem was their shutting down any reasonable dialog with racist tirades and name calling, in comments which had nothing to do with the topic being discussed. It caused others to respond in kind (only not so vitriolic), and created a pissing contest. It ran off other, thoughtful AAs. Even after we cut them off, they tried using different IPs and proxy servers to come back and spew their filth. We are not the only site that has banned them, and whenever they get run off from somewhere, they project the idea that they are victimized and misunderstood. It is a common character trait of sociopaths, actually. So is their sense of entitlement. They have an inability to look at themselves. My guess is this is how they conduct their regular lives.
We know that not AAs are like this. We have a lot of really nice, thoughtful AAs who read here, and I don’t want them to think that they are unwelcome. These guys are simply internet trolls. We also know that the tone of our site has a smartass tone, and it can cut to the core of what people understand about themselves. Coming to the understanding that the belief system from which we operated, is simply manipulative, cult-like dogma; is an uncomfortable experience. It is going to provoke an angry reaction, because it is impossible to use reason against the unreasonable. So we know we will get anger, name calling, meaness. That’s fine. All we want is some reasonable dialog in the process.
Not
@ murray -
“Maybe they had a spiritual awakening and we can all just get along and trudge the road of happy destiny together.”
ummm … not very likely. having tussled more than a bit with the banned ‘commenters’, my opinion is that they would simply look to drag the dialogue down into witless ad hominem invective, circular reasoning, & endless ‘steppish’ drone.
it wouldn’t be congenial, civil, or terribly informative.
the odd 12×12 advocate does stop by to evangelize in a semi-lucid way before turning tail and running back to the sanctuary of the rheumz (e.g., heather). heck, as far as i know neither danny nor dick b. — both unapologetic ‘real AA’ proselytizers — have been banned. they, like heather, just took their toys and went back home. maybe they’ll be back, maybe they won’t.
go re-read ma’s “The EstAAblishment Clause” post if you need a reminder of just how uncivil, uninformed, & downright hateful those banned individuals can be.
the 1st amendment does not extend to my standing on your front lawn with a bullhorn shouting insults and bizarro world quasi-theology at you. that’s harassment not free speech.
don’t mean to be snarky, but i’d suggest you take yourself to a meeting, raise your hand come ‘sharing’ time, and share even the slightest a-of-a critique. you’ll be trudging that road of happy destiny alone right quick.
i’ve gotten myself banned on both pro- and [ugghh] anti-AA boards & blogs for taking their respective administrators to task on obvious absurdity. no big deal — you just move on.
on the web, debate and inquiry tend to emerge organically. heck, there’s debate right in this very thread. and i’ve read plenty of things on this blog & on other sites that have — at the very least — shifted my thinking on the subject (e.g, ftg’s “keep comin’ back” series).
the extremely small group of commenters who’ve gotten the boot here at ST are not interested in debate, dialogue or inquiry. this blog is one of the few “safe places” where people (steppers and ex-steppers alike) can write and read open, honest, and informed criticism of the hallowed a-of-a.
i for one can live just fine without the throbbing headache that comes from merely looking at a comment by mcgowdog or cuda.
let the debate begin,
speedy
Speedy, I took an anti AA cake the other day and got more love bomb than a true believer. Lots of folks hate the BS, but like the people. No one has the courage to stand up and call the bull shit what it is. EVERYONE says they are an alcoholic whether they are or not, NO ONE has the courage to say anything different! My X-sponsor hates me because I took his prize. His little opposite sex sponsee that he threw me under the bus for does not listen to his crap any more. Life’s a bitch when someone tells the truth and you can’t find anymore suckers.
It is quite funny this! I don’t think you are quite right in saying “no one has the courage etc”……..I did and I would say 50% of the room looked very uneasy as if they totally understood and yet didn’t want to accept it. I’ve heard people say things like ” I don’t want to upset my sponser” also.
I understand the site cannot tolerate racism etc but I do think the AA’ers should have their voice. There is something in me which wants to argue our message as they do theirs. It would be pretty boring if we just agreed AA was useless all of the time. I didn’t think I was particularly affected by AA until I came on here and realised actually I did have a point to prove. It’s the same with some of my friends, who are still friends, who are in AA. Inevitably we end up discussing AA even though I don’t want to because it’s such a massive part of their lives. Almost always my heckles go up as the ridiculous comments come out………and I just can’t help myself from launching into an attack.
So maybe this site gives me some freedom to speak my mind about AA, it’s shortcomings and how it made me feel without punching someone!
JPR – We haven’t banned all AAs. We have had a number of AAs who believe we are full of shit, and do not mind sharing that belief in harsh a colorful language, and that’s dandy. I really like them. We just banned three who were working with the same brain in order to shut out dialog completely. They just happened to be horrifically mean in the process. It was not because one of them is racist or any specific things they said that got them banned. I’m not sure if you were around then. Just for the record, if any non-AA were to pull the same nonsense, we would have to shut them out. Anyone has to be a class A prick, to a very high degree, to get banned from here. I actually thought it was impossible to meet the standards we set, but I’ll be damned if it didn’t happen anyway.
MA For what it’s worth, I think it’s good policy, and I for one have viewed this site much more since those individuals were banned. Of course no-one objects to AAs having their voice – as we all know, there are some good, decent people in AA and any thoughtful responses from them are welcome. But there’s no reason why a forum like this should be hijacked into arguing within an AA/12-Step frame of reference or have to get into minute arguments about its doctrine. Some of the banned people just came across as bigoted bullies, which is not what I imagine this forum is here for. I’m sure many of the people who post on here are mightily relieved to have somewhere to be able to talk about their experiences freely and in a supportive environment, without being drowned down by the 12-Step nutters – who presumably are exactly the kind of people they’re trying to get away from.
Murray says
“Also a note to the editor:
I resent the fact that my visual representation here is a purple mutant crab with green dreadlocks, red clammy pincers and what looks to me like ducks feet.”
I actually quite like my “angry crab” representation. I look so much cooler than I do in real life. And I couldn’t get away with wearing a mini skirt like that in normal circumstances . . .
I just started the topic and moved this discussion to the message board… My response to the subject of the ban is there.
Hey
did not realise the little trolls had gotten that bad.
I guess I just missed the glaring evidence of AA not working in the ramblings of its members finest. It reminds me I dont want what they have.
I’m glad they got banned. They were nasty and I felt that I couldn’t express an opinion for fear of personal attack, not just debate.
MA………I wasn’t saying ban AA’ers…….I think tintop said erlier he didn’t want them full stop, or did I misunderstand? “they are boring, fatuous and take up space etc.” That was what I meant in my reply, let them speak so long as they’re not doing stuff they shouldn’t!
Administrator – this is off topic, but relevant to the website generally. Shift it somewhere else if you want – I just don’t know where to post it. Trying to give the point of view of the Al-anon unfortunate . . .
My name is humanspirit, and I’m not an alcoholic. But I am appalled at the way the AA 12-Step program is allowed to stand in the way of anyone’s attempts at get real help for alcoholics or addicts. It is disgraceful that AA, with its worse than useless program and cod religion, has managed to establish itself as the only organization to help alcoholics or addicts.
So, not being an alcoholic, why do I feel so passionately about this? It’s because the man that I love descended so deeply into chronic alcohol addiction that he could hardly function. Because he knew he was dying, and would die if he carried on much longer and was crying out for help – any help – which wasn’t forthcoming despite our best efforts. It’s a long and very sad story. I moved out of our mutual home because there was no way I could cope with it and could still carry on going to work, etc. He wasn’t violent; he wasn’t nasty – just hopelessly addicted. The sight of him, sitting in the garden in the early morning light, clinging to his bottle of wine in a silent, confused daze, day in, day out, absolutely broke my heart.
I went to an Al-anon meeting, naively hoping to find some support, and maybe some practical suggestions. Forget it. The first 20 minutes were spent with each attendee reading out one of the 12 Steps and 12 traditions in turn, as though we were 6-year-olds just learning our ABCs. There was no discussion or questions allowed about the 12 Steps or traditions themselves. Then there was an incredibly trite reading about ‘live and let live’ (in my case, and at that point, it was literally ‘live and let die’, i.e., if someone didn’t do something soon, my partner would die). And then there was a discussion in which each person was allowed exactly five minutes to whine about how hard it was to live with the drinker in their lives and then to declare how the 12-Step program had made them incredibly happy. Fine, but it was all TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the issue of helping people overcome addiction.
I talked to some Al-anon people on the phone, out of desperation. My concern for my partner was dismissed as either ‘controlling’ or as ‘co-dependency’ (whatever that very odd concept might be). ‘Live and let live’, I was told again. Well, this is a reasonable principle to follow in everyday life and in normal circumstances. But in this case, such an attitude was hugely unhelpful. I tried to do all the mind-fuck rationalizing I could for a short time, hoping that in some way it could make any sense and could help. But then I just cut through the crap, did the age-old trick of putting myself in the other person’s shoes, and asked myself: If it was me in this situation, where I really couldn’t help myself, wouldn’t I appreciate having some loving people around trying to do something? Instead of those people just having the indifferent attitude of ‘live and let live’ and then leaving me to die? The answer is obvious to any normal person with an ounce of humanity.
But clearly, this is also a hugely dishonest attitude on the part of Al-anon. The idea of anyone trying to ‘help’ an alcoholic is treated with absolute derision, unless your desire to help leads people to AA and their ridiculous programme. You’re definitely allowed to ‘help’ in those circumstances – none of this ‘let and let live’ crap applies then. And once you’re in their clutches, absolutely no-one allows you to ‘live and let live’. You are not even allowed to define yourself or your loved ones in any way that makes sense to you or gives credit to your own experience. I was told I was ‘in denial’ about my partner being an alcoholic (er, no, actually) because I mentioned what a great guy he was in the majority of years I’d known him when he wasn’t drinking too much. I was assured I was kidding myself. He was an alcoholic who hadn’t found the 12-Step program and hadn’t had a spiritual awakening, so how could he ever in any way have ever been a ‘great guy’? Ever. In his whole life. (They didn’t think to ask why on earth I would have been in a relationship with him in the first place if he wasn’t.)
I was told by Al-anon members that I should ‘detach’ myself (as if moving out, at huge regret and extreme sadness to myself, wasn’t ‘detachment’ enough). But the thing that really got me about this mind-fuck was that I was told that if I still cared about my partner, I had an ‘obsession’ myself. Whatever happened to the idea of pure natural human love and compassion for a fellow human being? AA defines such love and concern as a ‘disease’. If the person you care about is an alcoholic, you are as ‘diseased’ as the alcoholic himself, the line goes. And the only way you can cure yourself of this disease is by (surprise, surprise, folks!) entering into the 12-Step programme and practising the steps for life!
Which would all be absolutely fine if it had any effect whatsoever on anyone’s drinking and would help them overcome their addiction, but it just DOES NOT.
Where exactly is the bit in AA’s big book or in the 12 step programme that gives any advice on how to stop drinking? Please let me know, because after several readings I still can’t find it.
I’m sorry about this long rant, and thanks for anyone for reading it. I’ve posted at other times about the rehab place we eventually managed to get my partner into and how I was absolutely terrified that, after all we’d been through, all the religious rantings he was then subject to would seriously hamper his chances of recovery.
And yes, I’m fucking angry. Because this was to me a serious matter of life and death. Far too serious a matter for it to allow a bunch of fringe religious nut-jobs to even get a look-in, let alone rule the show.
HS, I am going to leave this post here, but I’d also like to post it right on the front page. This is a perspective we have neglected on this blog. Thank you.
those three comedians earned being sent off. If some other comedian appears to romp and play, send them off as well. But, the great majority of AA members are OK. So, most would behave well. But, I do not see the point of inviting any aa person, whether they be OK or not. I consider afflicting the comfortable futile. I find it much more useful to comfort the afflicted.
Just wanted to write to say no meetings now for 3 weeks and I haven’t grown horns or any of the other things I once thought would happen. It feels truly great to be out of AA even though I seem to be receiving quite a few phone calls asking whether my relapse was as bad as I thought?
It’s great to be free, great to be sober and to have direction back in my life. I sort of compare it to having had a headache for the past 3 years and now I’ve had an asprin. (probably not the best analagy but there you go.)
great stuff JPR
I think we should start a forum on the message board for people who are out of AA and want to talk about lifes ups and downs. Would be nice to have a sounding board for anyone who is struggling or just wants to vent.
Anyone got any ideas for a name?
Ill throw out “Hows your sobriety?” as a starter for ten.
good.
I have been thinking the same thing. “How is your sobriety?” is a good idea.
Great idea! How about “Happy, Joyous & Free”
(Maybe not — that mouthfulla words makes me want to spit).
Anyway, let me know what the consensus is and I’ll create the forum on the board.
ftg
make it so.
“Life afterAA” sounds useful.
One life at a time? snark
all,
“life after the a-of-a” is just plain life. it sucks; it doesn’t suck; it kicks ass; it bores you to death.
the “happy road of destiny” is hyperbole i’d give anything to force-feed down its author’s throat multiple times. EVERYBODY trudges the “happy road of destiny” & f**kface the “inside trading machine’ was well aware of that.
the a-of-a is the modern equivalent of applying leeches to alleviate disease. the medical/therapeutic community should hang their heads in shame for endorsing it — however weakly.
if you’re new to this blog & you’re questioning the bulls**t dogma you’re being force-fed by the a-of-a-bots, you are right to trust your intuition. AA does not want individuals seeking ‘recovery’; It wants cannon-fodder to spread the great good news of the disastrously ineffective a-of-a.
i kid because i love,
speedy
real live infringer of ‘real’ alcoholic signatures
“Life after AA” sounds good to me (-:
Dear humanspirit
Thank you for sharing your Al-anon story with us. I really enjoyed reading it.
My AA sponsor had the same Al-anon attitude concerning my family. She said that since they didn’t have the program (12steps) they were dry drunks and I should have nothing more to do with them. That I would have to make a choice between her and AA or my family, because my involvement with my family was hindering my recovery, and as long as I continued to stay in contact with them, I would never achieve emotional sobriety. My family may have there issues, create a bit of drama, and at times drink too much but they have always been there for me. They are loyal and supportive of me in what ever I choose to do. They are not bad people. I was looking after my mother at the time when my AA sponsor suggested this. My mother was going though a tough time and was very emotional. She’s a non drinker. My AA sponsor told me I had to kick her out because she was acting as a emotional vampire. I stuck by my family. I was an easy choice. My supportive family or a random phone call from my AA sponsor to tell me how I was traveling. As it turned out the doctor had changed my mothers diabetes medication and this was part of the problem. Since her medication has been sorted out she is now back to normal again.
Ex-SOB Thanks for your reply. What kind of person or organization would tell you to abandon your family because they weren’t following some weird religious program? What on earth is ‘emotional sobriety’, for heaven’s sake? (It’s a new one on me.) There is no such thing as a ‘perfect’ family or a ‘perfect’ relationship. We’re all flawed human beings; we all have our ‘issues’ – which is exactly what makes us human. Did your sponsor never think about the lifelong hurt and grief it would have caused to your mother if you had completely rejected her? (I say this as a mother myself.) She was a ‘dry drunk’ even though she didn’t drink? This is outright lunacy. What IS THE MATTER with these people?? What right do they have to advise such things, and on whose authority? I’m so glad you saw through all the bullshit and sheer malevolence of all of this.
Sometimes I think AA are just a bunch of harmless, deluded, happy-clappy god-botherers who should be left alone to get on with it. But testimonies like yours reveal the very dark flip-side which can’t be dismissed so lightly. So you got addicted to something – that doesn’t make you or your family bad. It sounds like you’re a whole lot better as a person than some of the nutters you got involved with.
Good luck with it all (and best wishes to your family too).
Oops – random repetitive paragraph posted by mistake there . . . Possible to get a facility to view posts before submitting?
sort of half serious: my definition of ‘god botherer’ is: he who bothers god by praying to it incessantly.
humanspirit, I deleted that extra paragraph there… I’ll check to see if there are any plugins that allow you to edit after hitting submit. There must be. I’ve seen some blogs that have a “timer” on the comments, so that after you hit sumbmit, you have a window of a few minutes in which to edit it.
I wasn’t welcomed in AA and went to NA and CA in the beginning. I walked away from CA in ’89 and only did NA until 2000 when I walked away from them all with 12 years clean. I went to maybe 1 meeting a year for the next 6 years. I was just too busy living my life and was no longer interested in being a part of the fellowship.
I spent a month back then going to meetings and asking myself after wards if attending was worth my time. The answer was no, and I stopped going.
Today 8 years later I do go to meetings. One most weeks that is filled with people like you, and now and then other meetings to look for people like you. I don’t speak or share in the meetings, I just sit and do my best to listen.
I am the disruptive guy who doesn’t buy into the dogma. I’m the guy who doesn’t ask for validation and refuses to give validation to anyone in the rooms with more than a few months clean. I don’t assume people with time have value anymore than I’d assume a hot looking woman has value because of her looks.
I’m the old-timer in the rooms who won’t be told what to do or how to act. I’m the pied piper leading people like you to a new paradigm.
I specifically look for people like you all. People who have seen behind the curtain. There are choices to make when the curtain falls. Some get angry at the fellowship, some get angry at themselves, some get busy with their lives.
I work with people caught in the anger. I don’t sponsor them – most have sponsors they don’t call anymore. I talk and listen to them and help them build a new paradigm.
It’s a paradigm shift. I never joined anything in my life until I went into the rooms. They say to surrender, and I did. Later I realized I’d forgotten who I was and what I wanted out of life.
Cheap Trick has a song called surrender. The chorus is “Surrender, Surrender, but don’t give yourself away.”
You are at the point where the curtain is falling. This site seems like a good resource as you build yourself a new paradigm. Build a vision of your future and move toward it.
Terry
i cannot decide if this was well meaning or creepy.
I vote creepy.
I vote: twee
Wow! What a great site! I wish I would have found this sooner, but better late…
My experience was with NA and it was short lived, but still thoroughly upsetting.
The short story is that I went to outpatient rehab for an opiate/benzo problem and was forced to attend 12 step meetings. I completed my 90 in 90 and was ready to start the step work. I actually really wanted the program to work as I couldn’t wait to experience the joy other members talked about after completing certain steps. I truly believed that the only other option was jails, institutions and death.
My first sponsor who had 10 years clean was a very controlling woman, who ended up abandoning me in what was my greatest time of need (attending my first Phish show which was also out of state with only 3 months sobriety) because she actually started using again.
So then even though I had some doubts I still believed and continued attending meetings and reading just for today, and the basic text, and I was excited to start my step work. I found a new sponsor this one had 17 years clean.
When it was time to start my step work I called my sponsor, because I was having serious problems with the language in step 1 and told her that since it was indeed my choice to get help and that I am able to control my use of some substances that I did not feel comfortable in saying that I was powerless. My sponsor responded by laughing at me and recounting all of the terrible stories I told her about my previous drug use as ammunition. She said that I have no idea what I am talking about and that I cannot trust my own thinking, because it got me here and that I am an addict.
I was upset, but decided to give this woman the benefit of the doubt and decided to put my stepwork off for awhile. I was feeling pretty miserable and I decided that I needed to do something else to help myself, and I joined a coed soccer team. I was excited abou this decision and thought my sponsor would be proud so I called her up to tell her and she ended up yelling at me. She said that I had absolutely no business making major decisions without first consulting her, because I cannot trust my own flawed thinking.
This really shot up some red flags for me, and I looked at the step work again and told her that I found it to be very unempowering. We got in an argument where she insulted me again, and I hung up the phone and googled NA and unempowering and I discovered the orange papers.
The next couple months after that I was completely consumed with reading about how NA is a harmful cult. I read a wonderful book called the truth about addiction and recovery by Stanton Peele, and this reinforced my great dislike for 12 step groups.
I find it now to be my personal mission to let all of those scared and confused people in early recovery know that NA/AA are not the only way to recover and that actually alot of times it does more harm than good.
Thanks for making this sight. I plan on sticking around!
I finally finished with aa in june of ’10 shortly after a 10 day retreat in the county jail for an alcohol related arrest. I was introduced to aa back in ’90 or ’91 by a rehab center (is that attraction or promotion?) . I was uncomfortable there imediately, but I was kind of desperate, and there was no other game in town that I was aware of. I was told that I was powerless over alcohol, and that I had a disease that would only get worse. I believed that steaming pile, and promtly set out to prove it.
1996 found me looing at felony assaulting an officer charges. I wasn’t kinda desperate anymore, it was the real thing now. Once again I sought help in rehab, as instructed by my probation officer. Once again I was taken to aa/na and told the same lies ie.. I’m powerless over alcohol, some sky fairy is my only hope,…. the list is long.
At that time I grabbed ahold of the lies and embraced them, as I said I was desperate for real this time.
A little over five years later I picked up a drink with the guys after work, I mean what the hell right? We just got through doing a hard days honest work and everyone was having a beer, why not join them. This is after being a “true believer” for over 5 years. hmmm??
2002 finds me once again seeking external help for what I now know is an internal problem. Back to rehab, yet again, told a lot of lies about the nature of my problem yet again. And yet again told the solution is the aa/na 12 craft lies. I was at that point still unaware of any other trains of thought concerning alcohol/drug abuse. Only that I had defects, and I’d get worse over time, and that the only solution was the god delusion. hmmmm.
I now know that my problem was delusional thought, and that the god delusion would/is only more of the same problem, delusion. I no longer by into the BS about a blank spot, I mean come on people we all know that’s BS. I know I’m not powerless over an inanimate liquid. I’m drinking as I write this, but guess what I do indeed have control over my appendages, and each drink requires me to make a conscious decision. Is there a god, I don’t know, maybe. But those of you aa/na who claim knowledge of such a thing without any evidence are quite simply asking people to follow your direction not any gods direction.
The simple truth of it is that if I drink too much, problems often follow. There is nothing mysterious about it. Too if I choose to put the drink down, it requires no special treatment by an imaginary sky fairy. It’s simply a rational decision.
I listen to what Terry has to say and the theory is fine. The problem in the meetings I frequented, probably circa 50, is that unless you “toe the line” you are made to feel very unwanted and deemed to be a trouble maker. I constantly maintained that I went to AA for some form of comradeship and that I believed the only requirement for membership was a desire to stop drinking. But this is very clearly not the case and everything revolves around the steps and the cult AA is.
For a while I attempted to speak my mind in a clear, concise and non confrontational manner but this just doesn’t work. I received some advice on this forum and unfortunately, the folk who responded here were right, I was wasting my time. I now no longer go to meetings as it just winds me up listening to the rubbish. AA is rather like our drinking careers and you know when you’ve had enough of it. I don’t knock people that go to the rooms but in the very same way I can now not tolerate being in the company of drunks I chose not to associate with them.
Well, JPR, AA has a sell by date — however useful it may have have been. I suggest that there are groups of ordinary people more edifying.
I went to a meeting last night in Conway arkansas on willow street. I waited patiently as we went around the room letting people have their “share”. It came to me and I questioned the existence of god and bill wilsons knoweledge of god and a guy interrupted me clainming that I should shut up and not have my “share”. I reminded him that I had allowed everone their turn, and about the third tradition. He became very hostile and threatened me with physical violence. I stood my ground and insisted that I met the third tradition requirment for being there and that I had as much right to “share” as anyone else there. He continued with his belegerance and threats of violence. And the group decided to back him up threatening to call 911 to have me removed. WTF? So much for the third tradition or any kind of anonymity, huh.
in the past two years, i have seen three (including me) people been either asked to leave a meeting or had the cops called on them. interestingly, these three people had the most education, were the most attractive (what kind of person says this about herself–take me with a grain, i guess), and were the most honest. aa is a room filled with low lifes. you are not safe there. think of it this way: now you can’y go back, even if you really wanted to.
Oh, by the way since I was in NA and not AA, am I still welcome here?
To Violet,
I like the fact that you consider yourself to be attractive. So many beautiful women have terrible body images.
I also know what you mean about the rooms being filled with low lifes. I’m not trying to be arrogant here, but I very succesfully abused drugs. I never lost a job or turned my back on family members or had legal problems. That’s not to say that I didn’t do tons of awful and illegal things that I am not proud of, it’s just that some of the people in the rooms were completely consumed with guilt over how they ruined their lives and the lives of their friends and family. These people really felt bad about themselves, and I wonder if taking constant moral inventories was a good thing for them or not….
I did hear a funny story from a friend the last time I went to AA. I’m sure it’s not unique and I don’t quite know the moral here!
But……a local AAmember recently confessed to one of his former “victims” how he had previously burgled him and arranged to call around to try and make amends. Good 9th step stuff. On arrival he met the Police, was arrested, charged and is now serving 7 years for this crime.
I think he needs to ask his HP what to do here? I had to laugh though ……..
@JenX
“Oh, by the way since I was in NA and not AA, am I still welcome here?”
For sure, JenX! Welcome! We definitely value your experiences and insight.
I’m glad you found us.
Hi, I just stumbled onto this site and relate to a lot of what’s being said. I was in AA for a year-and-a-half and actually “went out” with a single glass of wine on a date. Nothing bad happened, and now I drink moderately, and have never touched hard drugs since. I never really believed I was an alcoholic or addict, but I definitely was partied out after years of bartending, and at the time I went into the program I craved cocaine every time I had a drink. I never bought the concept of a Higher Power, and certainly found the chapter in the Big Book about Agnostics to provide some pretty lame evidence to “God’s” existence. I tried to work the steps, but could not wrap my atheistic head around the 6th and 7th (I too worked the 5th, and the only thing I felt and still feel is silly). The main reason I stayed is that I like SOME of the people, and felt that I had made some true friends. And that is what’s bothered me about leaving the program: all but one of my AA friends stopped talking to me immediately, and without bothering to have a conversation as to why. This includes one of my closest friends, someone who was my friend well before we both got sober. This sort of emotional blackmail is what will keep me from ever entering those rooms again, or suggesting the “program” to people with addiction issues. Turning your back on friends because you need to “stick with the winners” seems to me to be extremely cruel, and immoral to boot. Thanks for listening.
that is immoral. my mom was in alanon when i was in high school and would leave my sister and i with my father who was pretty nuts for extended periods of time, as she needed to “take care of herself.” i mean, 12 stepper TOLD her too, right? so, she hada do what they said. this here is just another example of immorality.
Thanks FTG!
I’m very “grateful” to have found others who feel strongly about what a creepy, sad, brain washing cult 12 step groups are.
I apologize for my atrocious grammar in my previous post…
It’s quite funny how none of the other AA members ever bothered to contact me once I stopped going to AA. I never announced I was leaving but you would have thought all of these “caring” people would have been worried aboout my health and sobriety?
No, the truth is AA is all about protecting the group as a whole and it doesn’t care at all about the individual. I’m so glad I’m out for good,
JPR I think that it is logical that none would. The relationship was controlled by participation in AA. When your participation in AA ended, there was no reason for any to remain in contact with you.
It is true that the individual counts for nothing in AA.
Hello there!
I have been sober for 5 months now. I went to AA after already being 42 days sober! I got a sponsor, went through the bullshit steps and then was told to sponsor! All within 3 months!! I was told to never take credit for my sobriety and to give all credit to the program. I simply don’t believe AA helped me at all, it just tried to turn me into some kind of crazy preacher man! I truly believe I am in control of my life and Iwill have to deal with crap as and when it happens, not talk to my god damn sponsor everyday!!! Thank you for this blog!! Lovin’ it, lovin my sober life!!! I’m moving on from AA, I loath and despise it!! ooooh I have a resentment, I’m sick, I’m a dry drunk! Whatever bum holes, call me what you want, I got a life!!!!
Nicely done, Stuggie.
Oh, I think I forgot to mention also that my sponsor in NA told me to leave my husband of 4 years who was/is totally supportive of me. My sponsor was a single mother who came into NA in NYC at the very beginning when she was barely 20 years old.
I think my sponsor probably meant well but she was terribly messed up and had no life outside of work and NA. She told me that she has a habit of getting too involved in her sponsee’s lives and admitted to me that she had some problems with the family of her last sponsee. Apparenlty this girl was only 22 and my sponsor became a major figure in her life, moreso than her own mother even, and to the point where they were going away on vacations to NA conventions together, speaker jams on weekends, sober BBQ’s, etc.
My sponsor told me that her family had become very jealous and that they did not understand that their daughter needed to put her recovery first even over her family. Anyway, all I know is that it was a pretty big deal and apparently my sponsor was asked to completely stay away from this girl and she left NA and her family was very upset. My sponor told me this because she said that she “didn’t want me to hear it from someone else”.
I was in a fragile state when I went to NA which is why it took me 3 months to figure out what a creepy, bullshit cult it was, but I did put the pieces together when my sponsor started to say things about my husband. The short of it is that I had a problem with opiates and benzos not alcohol, but of course I was abstaining from everything as to not “switch seats on the titanic” (ugghh I hate those sayings…) My husband was still having a few drinks hear and there and would occasionally ask me to meet him at one of our neighborhood bars or restraunts where inevitably everyone was drinking.
My sponsor started out very subtly asking if my husband had a drink last night or if he wasn’t home because he had stopped at a bar, and dropping passive agressive digs at him. Then she waited unil I was angry with him for something simple and unrelated to drinking and dropped a hate bomb. About how she thinks that he is an alcoholic living with an addict and how we have a very sick co-dependent relationship, and how an alcoholic does not love anyone but alcohol and how I need to lay down some ulitmatums about his drinking. How I could never maintain my sobriety while living with an alcoholic, and that if I was serious about getting sober I need him to get sober as well or get out.
It was truly an awful experience, and I am very thankful that I did not waste more of my time in such a sick and disgusting environment!
Thanks again for making this sight!
I will definitely keep coming back here!
JenX, There’s a lot of debate about whether AA is a cult, or whether we should call it a cult, whether it qualifies… But, if there’s one element of AA (and all its off-shoots) that screams cult, it’s the very thing you describe here: Sponsors invading sponsee’s private lives and the group’s isolating members from their families and friends, or trying to get the families into the program too.
I mentioned a few days ago that I had watched an episode of Addicted — I had never seen it before, and I thought I should just to see what’s going on. There’s a scene on there in which the interventionist — who apparently knows everything there is to know about addiction, but can only express it in the cliches that everyone else already knows — is badgering the addict’s father into going to a 12-Step program and insisting that he stop drinking the one beer he has in the evening. The scene was set up to make the dad look resistant (he finally agreed to go to one meeting), and it was some high drama. But there is simply no logical reason for him to participate in a 12-Step program, but they sure made it look like he was some kind of sonofabitch for not going.
There are some more examples of the sort of thing you describe on the horror story section at morerevealed.com — people’s relationships ruined.
One of the most bizarre things about AAs is the way they talk about their sponsors and quote their sponsors as if these people were wizards, when all they’re doing is spouting cliches:
“…and my sponsor chuckled knowingly and said, ‘well, son, the only thing you have to know about God is that he’s not you.’ ”
I guess it’s part of the whole game: the sponsees have to pretend that being an “old timer” somehow elevates people to some higher spiritual plane. There’s no other way to describe this but as an emperor’s new clothes situation… They discuss how awesome it is to be AA, and how the rest of us just “don’t get it,” all of them unable to actually describe what it means exactly (“Oh, you’ll know!” and they all nod at each other…). It’s mass gaslighting — and it’s the entirety of our addictions treatment industry! What a mess.
Im sickened by what I see going on in AA. Its pretty depressing to go to a regular meeting these days.
Where are the spiritual Warriors that care any out there???
I’ve always found the insistence that I get a sponsor and a “higher power” rather curious. In the first step all A.A.’s are told that they need to admit their life was unmanageable. In step two they come to believe that they are insane and only a mystical being that nobody can see or prove exists is somehow going to make them well again.
Hmmm … let me see. So I walk through the door or A.A. and you want me to entrust my sobriety to someone who believes they were insane and could not manage their own life? Worse still, that I can believe in the power of any spook, fairy, ghost or goblin to make and keep me better? Yet if I use my own thought, reason or will-power to stay sober on my own I am somehow deluding myself and in mortal danger of relapse?
Exactly, 13th-stepper! Now you “get it”!
It works if you work it.
; )
Really, the list of contradictions you have to accept to be an AA is mind-blowing. You just highlighted a great one: If you can’t trust yourself, how can you trust the guy next to you — someone else who’s on a 24-hour reprieve — and how can you presume to allow anyone else to trust you?
massiveattack,
I just can’t be convinced that AA fosters any kind of actual spiritual enlightenment, and that if you are a spiritual person, and crave the company of other like-minded people, you might seek them out in an environment that is more honest about what it’s doing, like a Unitarian church, maybe?
The thing is that if, as an organization — at the top of the chain — AA is unwilling to examine itself, to evolve, to do a 4th Step on itself, to make itself accountable — then it’s not going to do that on the front lines, either (I mean, in the rooms).
You’re trying, and I hope that your efforts have a Butterfly Effect on the whole outfit.
FTG – thanks for that I will post more later. In the meantime, do you think you guys can help me say things a bit less verbose and more eloquently in this thread on the message board I frequent where there happen to be tons of 12 steppers that try to convince people that they need to drink the Kool aid?
Here’s the thread I’m in right now if you want to see what I’m talking about.
http://www.phantasytour.com/phish/boards_thread.cgi?threadID=2314578&page=1
Thanks!
JenX, I have only read the 1st page of the thread so far, but it is funny that the first person to throw out the word “idiot” (completely unprovoked) is a 12-Stepper.
I guess when they do it, it’s called “tough love.”
Must be nice to be able to rationalize all your shitty behavior, and have a bunch of spiritually awakeneds agree with you.
Thanks FTG! You really don’t have to read it if you don’t want to. I was just pretty worked up when I posted that link here. Everyone at my office is at a conference so the handful of us left in the office with literally no work to do have been spending WAY too much time on the internet.
I have been fighting with these 12 steppers for a few months though. We have a lot of people on the board that are new to sobriety so there are a lot of daily support threads that get started, but unfortunately they turn in to a fight.
To me it’s getting to the point where I need concise intelligent remarks that I have saved that I can just cut & paste when necessary. Sort of like you did with your FAQ.
Seriously though, thanks a lot for checking that out and for what you are doing. It is something that I believe in and feel really passionate about!
Thanks, JenX. Feel free to use anything I’ve written if you want to… Or you can link back to some of our posts. Keep handing those coercive steppers their asses over there. That “your best thinking got you there” response to the original poster really gave me headache.
JenX I’ve just visited that site (what is is?) and saw some of your comments.
Obviously I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I often wonder whether it’s worth getting into heated arguments with convinced steptards. Sometimes my approach to these things is to post one comment and then just leave it for a while, let them get themselves into a heated lather and argue amongst themselves, and then post a kind of collective reply a bit later on. Pisses them off no end because you refuse to stoop to their level of personal insult and refuse to get side-tracked into minute arguments of lunacy. But I think that the useful thing about this approach is that someone out there – who could easily get bored with all the to-and-fro arguments - might just see the point of what you’re saying and look a bit closer. (But maybe I’m just saying this because I’m personally very bad at quick-fire arguing and get quite upset when people get personally abusive online.)
But, oh my, ‘Your best thinking got you here.’!! That’s up there with ‘easier softer way’ and ‘simple program’ that we talked about a couple of days ago. This is no bullshit, I just never knew what that one was supposed to mean at all. Is it supposed to mean that you rationally ‘thought’ your way into addiction and so you should now stop thinking and just obey orders (which obviously no sane person would believe), or that your ‘best thinking’ is to be commended because it got you to AA? (Which equally no sane person would believe.)
PS – JenX Maybe you should just ask the people on that thread what exactly they mean by ‘Your best thinking got you here’, and the precise meanings of all the other slogans they mindlessly quote. That would sure be enlightening for the rest of us!
Haha, humanspirit, I’d bet money they’ll deny they even said it.
Sometimes it can be fun to respond to the slogans when you act as though you take them literally. I once complained that I didn’t think it healthy to take cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth, especially if you have a history of ear infections.
Ha Ha! Great response commensense. I think I will definitely have fun trying that one out.
Hi humanspirit, thanks for your thoughtful and insightful comments. I think you are right about waiting and posting more sporadically addressing several comments at once.
I think you were also asking what website that is, and in answer to your question it is a board dedicated to the band Phish and its fan base and said community. We talk about music and just about everything else. It can be quite the cesspool at times, but I’ve been a member for a few years, and it definitely helps pass the time if you’re a cube dweller like myself.
Back to the original topic though, I really would like to create some great anti aa slogans to throw back at the steppers. I think it might be a fun challenge to create some so that when faced with one of those drones we have a quick concise slogan like they do to throw back at them.
Just a thought. If I come up with any funny one’s I’ll post them.
FTG, Humanspirit and Commonsense,
It is with great regret that I inform you that the thread that I linked in here a few weeks ago about the guy that was looking for a non 12 step rehab never actually made it. He found a place in Florida that he was going to go to the following Monday, and was really excited about starting a new and healthy life. However, we learned that he wanted to have one last hurrah the weekend before he was to enter treatment and accidentally took his own life.
He was only 30 years old, and will be greatly missed by his family, friends and dog.
R.I.P. John O.
Oh no! JenX that is just devastating and I am so so sorry. It’s heartbreaking.
That is tragic and sad. Never believe or tolerate the most hateful, disturbing and mindless slogan of all, “Some must die so that others may live.”
JenX I am SO sorry to hear that. What a tragedy.
Thanks everyone!
It was indeed tragic and so sad. I really couldn’t believe it when I heard.
That is very sad news.
@c-sense–i usta not even think about how ridiculous and creepy that saying was. have not heard it in awhile. fuck, i am glad i am outta there. jenx, sorry to hear of your loss.
I can really sympathize with a lot of the comments here and I <em>know</em> there are plenty of crazy and stupid people in AA, just like there are everywhere in life. I think it’s great that there is this blog for people to vent and find a new community of people who agree with them that their AA experience was bad and even dangerous. I just want to say if you are reading this blog and wondering whether or not you should try AA, that I have never had any of this stuff happen to me in three years of sobriety, going to AA. I have never had anyone, including my sponsor, tell me I had to pray or believe in God. I have never had fellow members reject me for not being religious enough or involved enough in the program. I have never had anyone betray my trust. I’ve found nothing but acceptance and a willingness to be helpful from almost everyone I’ve met in AA. There are whack jobs everywhere – chances are you are going to meet more of them if you are going to a room full of drug addicts and alcoholics several times a week. Always remember that a certain percentage of the people you meet in AA are going to have mental issues, probably a higher percentage than elsewhere. They have probably been abusing their bodies and minds with substances for decades. I would say that it’s a good idea to take with a grain of salt both the testimony from a rabid pro-AA person and the testimony from a rabid anti-AA person. People need to find what works for them personally in order to get and stay sober.
@ Violet – Thank you!
@ Rosie – “People need to find what works for them personally in order to get and stay sober.”
Exactly Rosie! That is one thing that you’ll find that people over here agree with. I don’t mean to speak for other people, but that is one of the main differences between the pro and anti AA crowd. AA and 12 step groups preach that the only alternative to AA/NA is jails institutions and death, and that is just plain false and dangerous to say.
If AA/NA does not work for you or someone you know then I urge you to encourage them to try alternatives and find what does work for them.
I am happy to find this site and The Orange Papers. As others may be aware the “program” offered by AA is a fragile glass house bulit on sand. When one decides to stop drinking and a stepper tells them they are powerless it just take a little validation to remind the person that their first impulse to use will power is the right impulse. When an AAer tells a new member that sobriety is more than abstinence it usually only takes one conversation to validate the truth that abstinence is sobriety. After I had this conversation with a friend who had been to AA for six months her sponsor actually had the nerve to call me up and tell me to stop undermining “Mary’s” program. I asked her “you and what army will stop me from undermining her programing?” She hung up on me. “Mary” quit AA, read about SMART and RR and has been sober almost a year which is much longer than any time in the past decade. At the encouragement of myself and other friends and family she is full of self confidence and feels empowered to remain sober.
If we keep reminding people that sobriety is not the clusterfuck that AA makes it out to be and encourage “self will” and personal empowerment we can save people from ever having to deal with the 12 step cult.
Is there any treatment or program available for all of you people and your overgrown image of your own intellect and your disdain for a God that loves you? Geez!
Agador,
Yes there is a program available for people of our intellect. I would tell you what it is but I am afraid you are too stupid for our program.
Welcome, Martha! I’m so glad you took a stand for your friend, and pulled her out of that revolving door.
@ Agador, I do not disdain something that does not exist. Since we live in a secular republic you are entitled to believe in you God as much as I am entitled to be an atheist. I do in fact trust my own intellect enough to have it guide my life. We do not need to believe in or fear an imaginary being in order to me moral people. Morality comes from people not from invisible control freaks in the sky. America belongs to non believers as much as it does to believers. I am encouraged that recent polls show an increasing number of young people in the USA do not have any religion and that they do not see atheism as being a dirty word.
“Holy War: a bloody battle to determine who has the best imaginary friend.”
Well, what can you expect from a guy who’s wearing his brain as a hat?
I like Martha!
Imagine! Agador believes it is a sin to think for yourself!
I am sooooo glad I finally saw through the bullshit… don’t know why I listened to the AA freaks for so long.
Now I’ve finally found something that works.
It’s called me me me! I’m free!
Donald your being selfish, your ego will destroy. I suggest do a moral inventory ASAP otherwise God will chuck relapse bolts at you!
Hey, k do you suppose that is why the statue of Jebus in Ohio got struck by a bolt of lightning the other day?
Another reason I get angry about AA is that they preach that anger is in and of itself a negative thing. Wrong! Anger is a natural and healthy response to many things in this world. Anger does not hold some special place among other human emotions that requires us to deny when we are angry and I’ll be damned if I will ever under any circumstances allow anyone other than me to manage my anger. If anyone ever told me to go to anger management classes I will tell them to go to hell. As with any other emotion how you handle it is what counts, but never allow anybody to tell you that you should not be angry.
Speaking of thinking for yourself one of the moments of clarity I had about the cult called AA happened at an AA hall. There was a bumber sticker on the wall that said “Think.” My sponsor at the time told me (with a straight face mind you) that the sticker should say “Don’t Think.” The following day I attended an AA meeting for the last time in my life, fired my sponsor, quit AA and finally felt happy, joyous and free.
Just one of the many good reasons I had for finally renouncing AA was the realization that there were so very many better ways of spending an hour and a buck that AA couldn’t be considered a worthwhile option. Besides, if I wanted to drink again AA would be as completely ineffective as a preventive measure as it is as a remedial measure!
AA causes slips. When someone is convinced that they are powerless and that they can only be sober for one 24 hour period at a time it becomes an excuse to drink. My best thinking got be out of AA.
I left Al-anon (actually the group ended because I took on the crazy, controlling woman who had taken it over). Some of the stuff I was “advised” to do was selfish, immoral, and designed to sabatoge relationships. I have since learned that the term “taking care of myself” is just a form of manipulation and an excuse for any type of irrational behavior. Been step-free since October and never felt better. None of the people in the group ever have been in contact. Good riddance. Just POed because I wasted my time there for the last few years.
I am linking this article about how the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals declared AA to be religious: http://articles.sfgate.com/2007-09-08/bay-area/17259704_1_parole-officer-treatment-program-appeals-court
The desicion happend a little over three years ago, but is not widely known. When I was still in the cult I told my sponsor about this and she refused to believe me. After I showed her the article she actually called AAWS to ask them what could be done about it. She became quite angry at me and paid me an unintended compliment when she said that I was out of control. I told her that in fact I have always been genetically and philosophically a noncontrollable human being. She said I was sicker than she thought. The more I think about it the prouder I am that I have helped others become sober by undermining their AA program. And there AA sits having no choice other than to sit there and take it. You might say they are powerless.
Hey Martha, You might be interested in this recent story, too.
That “out of control” line cracks me up!
Martha. Read your last post on all I can say is how can anybody say AA isn’t a cult. Also like to say I am enjoying exchanges on this site its helping keep my mind off things through a difficult period.
I just posted on 12 step forum of SR. To quote a member “AA is not a place for free thinking sober alcoholics”. Say no more I say.
I remember some so called cult expert saying AA is not a cult, what planet is he on!
Ps martha yeh the statue clearly got hit by god and was nothing to do with the science of lightening strking the highest points.
Thanks for the link about the atheist suing for his rights, Friendthe girl. I wonder if the parole officer is in AA or just another non member who blindly enforces AA doctrine. It is still all too rare to find professionals who will openly challenge the AA strangle hold on addiction recovery. I also wonder if he was aware of the earlier 9th Circuit Court Decision or just had that 12 step arrogance that says they know better. Don’t even get me started about the trips that steppers put on newcomers to stop taking medications. AA members have an attitude that they know better than doctors and want people to use their faith healing religion for everything. Another last straw for me was when they decided to serve only decaf coffee at the meetings. They may label my love of coffee as an addiction, but that is one addiction that I welcome and celebrate. I’ll give up coffee when they pry my cold dead fingers from my coffee cup!
Martha, You so freakin’ funny! Yes! By that logic, someone should start Meetings Anonymous, where, if you even show up, you have relapsed.
I can’t think of anything better than to get you started. Ready? Go!
Martha: I must correct you on the “they are powerless” statement that you made earlier. My life was publicly and very earnestly threatened at my last meeting by a principal officer of the group, just because I had stated that God would not perform miracles on demand, and that quality sobriety demanded individual effort (physical, mental, as well as spiritual). AA is every bit a pagan religious cult, and every bit as potentially dangerous to its critics as Synanon proved itself to be! The same may be said of NA, perhaps even more so…
Rotten Ralph, it is outrageous and totally unacceptable that you were threatened. It seems that sort of intimadation in meetings is the sort of power they do have. However I continue to believe AA is powerless to stop efforts like this forum, the Orange Papers and other projects that expose AA. They also have no power to take down the many Youtube videos like those of Dr. Stanton Peele. They have to accept the decison of the Federal Court that declared AA to be religious. Personally I have no fear what so ever and they cannot impose any negative consequences on me. I will “bash” AA at will and with impunity. As I stated before I have influnced others to quit AA and by doing so helped them achieve sobriety. I fully indend to continuue my efforts to undermine AA whenever I can. If AA does not like it their only option is to “turn it over.”
Martha, you’re a gutsy lady! However, I suggest that you read the posting “There are no limits to 12-stepper tactics” on the XAA website. Keep in mind that AA is not a static organization, and is constantly changing to become more authoritative, mercenary, less friendly and less tolerant of dissent than ever (a familiar pattern for organizations that have outlived any original purpose). Synanon (an outgrowth of AA) followed that pattern. BTW, local agencies are currently doing an end run around the Federal courts by mandating people into self-help addiction groups without specifying any of those groups by name (knowing full well that translates to mean AA or NA for these people). This was told to me recently by a gloating AA’er.
Martha: Determine what is right, then go ahead.
Ralph, I read the “there are no limits” thread. I am amazed that those people keep gettting away with those tactics. I did draw some encouragement form a post where a man mentioned that a therapist encouraged self empowerment to a patient who was staying sober without AA. My own physcian sends his patients to SMART and gives them a list of non 12 step recovery facilities. This because she noticed the revolving door nature of AA as well as her common sense rejection of telling people they are powerless.
While it can be demoralizing to observe how much influnce AA has over counselors and the medical profession I think we should take note and be encouraged that there seem to be a few professionals who realize how bankrupt the 12 step movement has become. It may be by the one and twos right now, but that is how change takes place. I was amazed by the number of resources linked at the Exposing AA site. Also at the Orange Papers they have a meter of their trafffic and hits that is quite impressive. There are also thousands who have looked at the RR website.
Now for some really bad news. I just heard from a friend that a mutual friend of ours in now in detox for the third time since 2008. She is a classic victim of the AA mentality who after every slip basically says “well I can’t help it because I am powerless.” When she is sober and in her right mind she is a very bright woman and is open to hearing my experience. When she is in the grasp of the steppers she just mouths the AA line and becomes defensive of them. My dilemma is that I am not sure how much I should do right now to give her a new direction. My fear is that if she even mentions alternatives to AA in a recovery center that they will try to silence her or even punish her with more mandatory meetings or worse. What do others here thing is the best thing to do here?
Martha, Is she there voluntarily? How long will she be there? Do you visit her there?
She is there voluntarily, but her employer said this is her last chance. She is a couple os sates away and I don’t think she can have visitors for the first month of a 90 day stay. From what I understand she has access to a phone, but not the net. After she gets out she may come over here to my house to convalesce. I am going to have her visit my anti 12 step doctor and offer to take her to SMART meetings. Right now she need medical support to withdraw and is considered to be in serious medical condition.
Hello again, Martha! You are a rarity – a true friend! Perhaps your doctor could prescribe Antabuse to your friend, at least for a while. I took it for six months (courtesy of the V.A.), and it worked fine in taking away the daily struggle over drinking vs. not drinking. Of course, the steppers were up in arms against it, but so what? I have never been through a rehab, even though I was given the opportunity. Heck, I needed that time to work and make some money! Hard work is therapeutic for me, and was an important part of my personal program until I retired. Now I work out, read much, and am studying the Bible for the first time in my 65 years. I’m not pushing any beliefs on anyone, just telling what currently works for me. AA does not, and never did. The judge that put me in it for three years was a member of AA, as I later discovered. He was trying to give me a break, I guess, because the D.A. wanted to lock me up. I hated AA so much that I was prepared to go back to jail, but my P.O. relented on the meetings because I was doing so well my own way. Good luck and God bless!
Surprising what the Bible contains: “These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence” Colossians 2:23 (NASB Reference Edition 1996).
Now, why do you think Paul said that?
Martha, your doctor is a rarity. I would very much like to hear the views of a doctor who has made themselves aware of the dangers of this cult.
This is a great thread, I’m happy to have found this site. I’m 25, been in AA since I was 19. I abused other drugs mostly, but was taught in rehab to quit everything so I haven’t touched a drink either. But over the past year, I’ve felt that I wanted to be a social drinker with friends. I’ve been terrified of these thoughts because of what I’m told at meetings, so I always think that I need to work my program harder. I still have a lot of anxiety and self esteem issues, and I’m starting to feel that the AA program is contributing to it.
I’m just scared to leave and try drinking with friends, I’ve been told that I will die. I’ve been going through a lot of stress lately so I’m worried I’m in some sort of denial and I’m looking for a way out by drinking. But whatever the case may be, I’ve questioned the program for a long time and I feel I’m just about to call it quits.
Thanks for any feedback.
Guess what……you won’t die, grow horns or become a bad person!
However, just be very careful in what you decide to do and use your 6 years sobriety and judgement accordingly! I found that once I quit AA, the actual desire to have a drink disappeared totally……….because I now felt I could drink. Bizarre but true.
Welcome Brian! I believe 19 is way too young for AA. You’ve spend some formative years with these people… You know, you do deserve to know whether or not you can have a drink with your buddies.
My advice is this: Disentangle yourself from AA, and do get some professional help with deprogramming. Do this before you experiment, because the indoctrination will hit you hard and you won’t have the tools to deal with it. What concerns me is the AA teaching that “alcoholism is progressive” — in other words, even though you have been abstinent, your alcoholism is still progressing, and you will resume drinking right where you would be if you had never quit. (“My disease is out doing pushups in the parking lot.”)
It happens often that — because of these whacky beliefs — people who “go out” on AA, go out on a bender. They believe they’re powerless, that they can’t control themselves. And then there’s the guilt. And the fear.
So, deal with those things first: Find a good therapist, someone who can help you break the spell, to see the AA indoctrination rationally. If you’re still feeling anxious, scared, worried — afraid you will die — then I think it’s really really important that you work through this before you embark on new adventures.
ftg
I am writing a book and starting a new program for those of us who cant take AA anymore.
I can see there are many who need something else.
It’s time.
Thanks for the replies. Friendthegirl, this is one of the arguments that I have had against AA for a long time, that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy once people decide to have a drink. And since one sip is the same as 20 drinks, both are a “slip” in AA, why not go all the way, right? And I always hated that quote about the disease doing pushups out in the parking lot. There are so many irrational and superstitious beliefs being pushed that I feel like a sucker for buying into it.
I’ve been in therapy for a few months, and my therapist seems to share similar views about AA, so I think she will be able to support me. Stanton Peele also recommended a therapist that deals with people deciding to resume social drinking, so it may be worth having a few phone session with her too.
I really feel that to get to the next phase in my life I need to break out of this organization and learn how to make decisions for myself. I think a lot of personal growth will come from the ability to make this decision even though my family and the whole AA community that I have met will not be supportive. Some decisions are tough I guess…
Brian, your decision to leave AA behind is a sure sign of sobriety. Once you internalize the fact that you are not powerless you can make other decisions about your life free of AA indoctrination. Abstinence is sobriety. You have been told by 12 steppers that sobriety consists of attending meetings and “working a good program” for the rest of your life. The truth is that once you have quit using and drinking you have by definition achieved sobriety and can get on with your life. IMHO you should remain abstinent while you shed your AA skin. I am on the fence about wheather or not it is possible to go back to social drinking. I have read that some people can, but for me it is not worth the risk of getting in over my head again.
Just to update about my friend who recently went to rehab. Her medical condition has improved even though she is still quite shaky. It does look like she will be staying with me when she gets out and I still hope to have her check out SMART and get some professional validation that there are alternatives to AA that work.
Sorry to end on a tragic note, but I found out recently that a friend I had lost contact with who struggled with drinking for many years recently died form a combination of booze and pills. I am told that he had been in and out of treatement centers numerous times in the past decade or so and did several 90 in 90 trips only to relapse each time. When I knew him he was a very strong minded man with a lot of confidence. These are traits that AA brainwashes out of people. AA would say that his “disease” got him, but I say that AA is a disease.
To Brian
If you find that you cannot drink socially, please do not go back to AA–there are other alternatives these days. The more you “keep coning back,” the sicker you will get.
I agree with ftg: get all of the indoctrination out of your head before you experiment.
It was pretty much all over with me after my sponsor told me to make amends to my sexual abuser and find my part in it.
Oh god, poet. I’m sorry…
Brian@stinkin-thing, yes.
A standard human unit starts drinking at about age 15 w/ trial and error. It may be 5-10 years to learn the how to do.
If your “drugs” had been pain killers and sleeping pills, forget it for now. Have a two-year brake.
Else, for “anxiety and self esteem issues” social drinking is such a relief. But only social drinking. Drinking to cope anxiety etc might cause problems over the years.
Question this: ANY NORMAL STOP (SET A LIMIT) before HE STARTS ANY DRINKING !
ANY ALCOHOLIC RELAPSE before HE TAKE THE FIRST DRINK !
I must say it is very relaxing to read through this and other threads here — lots of good insight and logic. I had figured out most of these points, with some effort, but I really didn’t know this many other people had; what a relief.
@andreas and Brian, I was going to say something about this too; wasn’t sure this was the place to give specific instructions on drinking. I agree with Andreas’ points. Also: always eat, always drink water too, and realize glasses nowadays are often super-sized.
My other thought was, beer with a group of 25 year old guys when you’re not used to drinking at all, that can be awkward socially if you haven’t practiced some cool and smooth ways to be the one drinking the least. To private venues, casually bring a few things to drink that aren’t alcoholic; in a biergarten or bar, casually order them on the side, and tip the server for these so s/he doesn’t forget about them.
However, due to the open-ended nature of “beer with the guys” (see up thread!) I wouldn’t test the situation this way. I’d plan an evening with a couple of friends where you’ll stick to a rough itinerary, in some interesting area of town where you can stroll around. 1. Dinner, no alcohol; 2. ONE beer after dinner at the restaurant bar; 3. Stroll around and look at things, see boats on the river, ride on the ferris wheel, whatever there is; 4. Coffee in some pleasant cafe that’s festive but that isn’t a bar; 5. Home.
THAT would be social drinking and I’d actually do variations on this theme before drinking in situations where the alcohol just flows.
andrea: no, I was not into painkillers, sedatives, or alcohol. Stimulants were my thing.
Thanks again for the feedback. I may end up trying it out with a couple of friends tonight, we’re supposed to meet for dinner. I appreciate your support, I have not done any meetings in a week now and I’m starting to feel more confident in myself already.
Brian, I love Z’s itinerary for an evening of social drinking… And also, be aware of any AA triggers that may be tripped on this journey, so you can handle them.
And also, have fun!
And check back in and tell us about it.
i was in AA for 36 days. i started reading all these negative and horror stories about it. when i called to check in with my sponsor yesterday about it he went off on me, told me i “wasn’t ready for sobriety” and i should work the steps harder. i always felt like a few things were off, because i was told i cant be trusted to think for myself because “you’re new, you don’t know anything.” he then told me “- you, and i never want to – see you at any of the meetings again.” and throughout all that drama i didn’t even think about drinking and in all honesty…if that’s the type of people in AA i want nothing to do with it. if they think i’m “going back out” again, then whatever. people told me to get another sponsor, but what’s the point? if we supposedly have no power over alcohol and our life is unmanageable why would i like someone with those things as well be my sponsor? it’s ludicrous.
Brian plz
not less drinks each day
less days drinking.
3 standard drinks (females 2) are a good thumb rule IMO.
But w/ ftg I would LOVE some feedback.
Hi Zach, congratulations on getting out before you got too far in. What made you question aa? I would love to know what your trigger to doubt and leave was. Mine as when I found the orange papers. Do you think that more and more ‘sponsors’ might be facing similar critical questions?
There is some really good stuff on this site under essential reading. What an escape for you.
So things ended up going well. Met my friend after work, and we each had 1 pint at a local bar. It was a good time and it wasn’t really much of an issue to stop after that, I didn’t particularly want a second. We did a bit of shopping after and then went to eat some Chinese food and that was that.
It was a very enlightening experience. I did not turn into an out of control fiend, but rather felt that I’m taking back control of my life rather than depending on an outside authority to tell me how to act and feel.
This site is what got me started on my search for real information about addiction. Not sure how I stumbled here, but I’m glad I did! But because I’m questioning everything I’ve also had ideas that I would be able to moderate other substances as well, which may be a different ball game than alcohol for me…
Hey, Brian, I’m so glad to hear that you had a good time! I’m also glad you checked in. Awesome. At the risk of being overbearing in my advice… Why don’t you keep a little journal of your new adventure? Write about what you’re doing and how you’re feeling about it, while you get your feet under you. It’s amazing the sorts of things that come flying out of your mind when you write, that you didn’t even know were there… I’m just thinking that might be a good idea, because that way, if there are any morbid AA boogeymen slinking around, you might be able to expose them before they have a chance to blindside you.
I’m also very glad you found us. I hope you stick around.
Brian, nonsense.
If stop first, 2 pints after. Then you’d not talk that shit.
Else, go fuck the world w/ your stupid drugs. Have a “nice” time.
andreasheinz, If you want your comments to be taken seriously, you really must do your best to make them coherent.
You sound like nonsense andrea, go pop another diazepam.
Re writing — it does fix things in your mind. When I did my first, disastrous ACOA/Alanon stint, they got me to do a lot of writing re the steps and so on. The suggestion put up a red flag, because I know the power of writing, but I set that aside (we were supposed to suspend disbelief, right?) and doing all the required writing was what undid me. Later, to detox myself, I ended up writing a kind of reverse version.
@andrea: I’m not quite sure what you are trying to say, but the last time I checked alcohol was considered a drug too.
@FTG/Z: That sounds like a good suggestion. I had started a blog about a past interest of mine, so maybe I should start a new one to journal about what is going on.
I’m not sure if your site is limited to alcohol specifically, if it is I’ll make sure not to discuss anything related to other substances.
Hi Brian,
Feel free to post about anything you want (as long as you don’t sound like… ^you know who^ up there
)
Brian, other substances may be your basic difficulty. You may be able to drink beer without problems. That may not be true of other substances. So, be very cautious; no experiments. There are safe limits to alcohol consumption, long term and short term. Not a great deal is known about addiction. Medicine understands cancer or heart disease more than it understands addiction.
Brian:
If you are truly an alcoholic (i.e. alcohol addict) the return to out-of-control drinking is not always immediate. It may take a few weeks before the old problems return. I know this from first-hand experience. Alcohol is a slow, insidious poison. Beware of those “experts” here that are supporting your risky decision to return to drinking. Their advice is no better than the “experts” in AA who tell newcomers to stop taking their prescription meds!
Have you taken the precaution of discussing this decision with your doctor? How about your family? They’re the ones who you will most likely be calling if drinking gets you into trouble. In my state (NY) even one beer will get you a DUI, and if there is any sort of accident involved….well, I hope that you have funds aplenty for your attorney! You could even be mandated back into the program again.
The best way out of AA is not through the bar – that’s the way back into that program! Don’t drink and don’t go to meetings! Those here that may be encouraging you have absolutely nothing to lose if you get into trouble, and will be of no help to you if that should happen.
I am saying all this partly because of recent news of two men in your age group that had “a few beers with friends” and decided to go rock climbing without any equipment. One fell 300 feet to his death, and the other 100 feet. Alcohol can screw up your judgment like that, even for the non-alcoholic. No one gets into trouble by abstaining from the stuff, and it is still possible to go out with your friends as long as you stick to N.A. beers. My friends have actually paid me to go with them, since they needed a sober driver. Now, I no longer am available for that after watching them make idiots of themselves too many times.
End of lecture. Good luck!
@Tintop: Thank you for the advice. Do you mean that you think there is a safe level of alcohol use, but not with other substances? I can understand on an individual basis if a person has not had a history of alcohol abuse that it may be less problematic for them. But I don’t see why alcohol would have a safe level of us whereas all other drugs would not. Why would this be the case? Alcohol is a drug, albeit socially acceptable and in beverage form.
@Ralph, I appreciate your input. I have in fact discussed my thoughts with a therapist who knew me while I was an active addict, as well as my current therapist who I see weekly. Neither of them seemed to think that it was necessary for me to stay in AA, although they left the decision of drinking up to me. I mentioned before that I never had a problem with alcohol specifically.
People can run into problems with alcohol, but just because some people have a few drinks and do something stupid and dangerous doesn’t mean that most people are at risk of ending up dead after a few drinks. You don’t need alcohol to have fun, that is true. But if my only reason for abstaining is fear that is not based on actual fact, then that is a problem too. If the belief that I am diseased and something is wrong with me is spreading to other areas of my life (which I think it has), then that is a problem.
Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate all points of view!
I was watching an empowerment video on YouTube and the author claims to have
identified 6 human needs. Seemed to make as much sense as any and it became
clear very quickly that the AA eco-system supplies material for all of those
needs. It does this because it is not just a stop drinking program, but a way of
life religious program.
For many of these needs, it doesn’t really matter if the material is true or not. It just has to be accepted for the need to be met. This could be why AA people react so harshly when someone criticizes the program, because it is meeting their life needs and they don’t even know it. The response is visceral and illogical in the vast majority of cases. I mean, who can really defend faith healing unless there is more to the story.
Here are the six human needs -
Certainty – In AA, many false ideas are presented and adopted with certainty. You have a progressive, incurable disease and you are powerless, period. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Leave AA and it is jails, institutions or death.
Variety – The steps and traditions provide variety and there are many positions
to hold and the revolving door of people provides variety as well. If you
completely commit to the world of AA, there is no shortage of things to do – it can be all consuming.
Significance – You go from being a drunk to one of God’s chosen people, it
doesn’t get more significant than that. Plus, when you become an old timer, your
mere existence provides significance. Being a sponsor and “helping’ a pigeon
also provides significance.
Connection/love – Meetings do provide connection, being with like-minded people,
love you until you can love yourself, hugs, holding hands, etc. I have met what
appear to be caring people, until they talk about the sponsee they had to fire,
or when somebody leaves, then they appear kind of calloused. But there is much
talk of love so it is a key ingredient to AA whether real or not.
Growth – Coins, chips and birthday cakes are ways to mark growth, even if growth
is only time in the program. Completing each step, spiritual awakening, getting
the program and sponsoring people are viewed as growth.
Contribution – Working with others, involvement in committees, events, GSR,
Intergroup, Prisons, local business outreach, etc.
If these observations are true, AA will never go away because being in the group
meets those basic human needs. People will be in AA regardless of the logical
arguments against AA, because it appears to meet their unconscious needs. When
those needs aren’t being met, people will leave, like many have done already.
Using this model, I can see exactly which of my needs stopped being met and
caused me to leave –
Certainty – The deceit I have discovered has shattered areas of previous
certainty and is probably the largest single category and now I am moving
towards a new certainty in personal empowerment. I may fail, but I don’t sense
anyone is lying to me when they say it is my choice whether to drink or not. Or,
that all of life is a series of choices and that I need to learn how to get
better at making decisions and controlling my own mind and actions.
Variety – There is variety everywhere and I need to get a better “class” of
variety.
Significance – I never really bought the “you are special” crap, but it felt
really good when I first read the thing that said Alcoholics are God’s chosen
people. Hey, look, when God was picking teams, he picked me! I’m sooo special …I
don’t want to be significant because I used to drink too much. I want to be
significant because of my accomplishments today.
Connection/love – Most connections with people in the program are conditional on
me being a good little AAer. I need to create new connections with people that
don’t have their drinking past as a recurring focus in their life.
Growth – I don’t want their version of growth anymore. From a motivation
perspective, I am a wreck and my life is suffering because of it. There is
nothing in the program that provides a focus for self-motivation and
self-determination. I need that more than anything at this moment.
Contribution – I believe people need to contribute to feel whole and I need to
find new ways to contribute. My online efforts at trying to expose a deceitful
and possibly dangerous program seem to be partially meeting the need of
contribution today.
Brian:
Diseased? Something is wrong with you? Aren’t you the guy who took positive action regarding his problems, and kicked his habit? Give yourself a pat on the back for that!
AA doesn’t like what I’ve just said, because my statements encourage people, and give them well-deserved self respect. People like that don’t stick around, and keep the lie of AA going!
You don’t have to prove anything to anyone. Do a positive inventory of your strengths; it sounds to me like you have a lot of them! You are honest, determined, inquisitive, intelligent, brave and more for starters. The true losers never clean up their act in the first place, so why would you even begin to think that you’re one of them (unless it’s the old AA programming coming through). I read back through all your postings, and I see that you were in the program for six (!) years! How could you stand it for so long? You must also have the constitution of an ox!!
Try this idea, if you would: just have an NA when you are out with friends. True friends will understand if you tell them that “you’re on the wagon”. False friends will not (my real friends never questioned me). See if you have any cravings for “real” beer. If you do, consider this: the only difference is the alcohol content.
I had a good friend (a Vietnam vet like myself) who always started one of his countless slips with a beer. He never liked the stuff, but it always “loosened him up” enough to enable him to indulge in his real habit – hard drugs! He would soon flip out on those, and his other friends would call me to help them get him to the hospital, or clinic, or rehab, or whatever. Quite an experience, restraining another “Nam vet from jumping out a car window! I don’t know if he’s dead or alive now, since he didn’t return from his last stay wherever…
Don’t take the chance that this could be you! I like to gamble, and I’d place the odds on you right now being able to drink (it is a drug, right) safely at about ten to one – against you. You’ve been away from it for several years, and don’t have any built-up tolerance. You place yourself in bars where other drugs may be available, and you have a history of substance abuse (like myself). Russian roulette is only five to one, right? So where are you going?
All this to beat a lousy program like AA that I have beaten for 30 years without drinking?
Illegitimi non carborundum!
(Don’t let the bastards get you down)!
Ralph,
I bet it was as hard for everyone to offer support to Brian for his decision as it was for me. My instinct is to say “Oh HELL no! Nope! No.” I’m sure that’s what we all felt, reading his first post. How could we not?
I took a breath before I offered support, though, because Brian is making a decision for himself, based on how he envisions his life… He intends to be able to go out for a beer with his buddies now and again. That’s what his pals do, and he wants that, too. And he has no reason to believe that he can’t. And, I might be overstepping here in my assumptions, but I bet, what’s even more, is that he doesn’t want to have to even worry about it. Maybe he wants to walk right up to that demon and make it disappear. He just doesn’t want to have to think about any of that “alcohol is cunning…” “jails, institutions, death,” “my disease is doing push ups,” “I’m not a normie” stuff.
Look, I’m a particularly neurotic and overprotective mother of a little boy, and one of the hardest lessons I have ever, ever had to learn in my life is that sometimes the boy knows better what’s best for him than I do. Sometimes I have to trust him to make decisions for himself, because he has his reasons – he can really handle what he’s put on his plate. I climb walls, seriously, because I want to tell him what to do. And then I bite my tongue, and it turns out that he had a plan and saw it through to the outcome he envisioned, and no one died of it.
It might turn out that Brian finds that this experiment proves some of AA’s aphorisms right in his case. But he is embarking on this adventure with a lot of information, with a therapist, and he is doing it mindfully – even checking in here – and I am going to respect that, and offer support rather than warnings he has heard before. He is checking in. He is making himself accountable. And perhaps, if it turns out that he discovers that it doesn’t work, Brian has a community here that will support him in figuring that out, too. Because we certainly will.
Ralph, despite everything I’ve said contrary to your advice, I do very much appreciate what you said and why you said it, and I understand it. It may turn out that your wisdom and sense of restraint will, ultimately, be the one that strikes the right tone in this particular situation. And so, I hope you don’t find that I have devalued it, as much as I have explained my position.
@SoberPJ, very interesting on the human needs and the fact that since the 12 step program fills them, it doesn’t matter whether the line is “true.” That explains a lot.
@Brian, Ralph, FTG – well, my tendency is to think that if you tell someone who’s 19 – that’s when Brian started AA, right? – who hasn’t had problems before with alcohol specifically or tried it, that it’s dangerous and they shouldn’t try it, the project can backfire.
I mean – I was told in 6th grade that trying marijuana would addict me to heroin, but in reality it didn’t even lead me to much more marijuana. On the other hand, I told myself when I was 20 that trying tobacco wouldn’t hurt, but it was insidious, and years of trying it occasionally led to eventually buying my own, although I never bought a whole carton because every pack was an exception, the last, etc. THAT was insidious, progressive, everything, and also very hard to quit; I really cannot just have one. Also, based on my reaction to the morphine they gave me when I broke my arm, that wouldn’t be a drug I should play with, either! Just from that experience I can see how it would be. I’d say let’s take just a little. In a few years it would be more, and I’d be lying on some couch in an upscale opium den next.
I also mean – look at the results of abstinence based sex education. You tell teenagers, don’t have sex, it leads to AIDS, insanity, and death! You do all of this and they end up pregnant anyway, more than before, and also neurotic. I think some information on how non addicted drinking is actually done can be useful, not as a directive to go out and do it, but just as information in case. A lot of people don’t seem to know — there are whole cultures where people think they shouldn’t drink at all and resist mostly, but then binge madly; those cultures are full of addicts; I’ve lived in Scandinavia so I know; people with no information on moderation and a lot of fear and also curiosity really get themselves into trouble.
So, here’s some more information on non addicted drinking: I think most everyone watches it to some extent, the way they watch on overeating, or on not eating things that disagree with them.
@Ralph: Thank you for the compliments. I do not really focus on what my strengths are and I would like to change this. That’s a big part of what my decision is about, being able to decide for me what I think is best no matter what everybody at meetings and my family may believe.
But I just can’t accept pursuing a goal (abstinence) out of fear anymore. For the last year I have been terrified of drinking, imagine that! I never used to enjoy drinking much, I’ve been sober for years, and for a year on and off I’ve been terrified about drinking! How does that make sense? One of the benefits of AA, I suppose. I could no longer continue with that and wanted to just face it and see for myself. If I am proven wrong, then I learned from the experience and can make a decision not to drink based on actual experience.
@FTG: I think you really understand my reasoning. I do not want this to have to be an issue that I even think about, and I want to be able to have the confidence to decide things for myself whether others agree or not. I’m very happy to have your site as a source of feedback, it’s not everywhere that it is easy to talk about these things. Like you said, maybe my decision will end up being problematic, but then I’ll have learned and can begin to focus on abstinence once again.
@Z: I agree that information on “normal” drinking is useful and should be available. The majority of people who drink or experiment with drugs do not have a problem with it.
Brian:
I strongly suspect that you made your decision to return to drinking (and possibly other drugs as you implied in your July 9 post) some time before you posted your first message here. Your “reasoning” is a masterpiece of rationalization – I haven’t heard anything quite like it before! I wouldn’t assume that a return to any previous state of abstinence is guaranteed, though; you will probably be going to places that you didn’t plan to and won’t necessarily like.
One good thing about all this, though: you have shown everyone here just how well AA and therapy really work! I can only guess at the cost to society that you have been and probably will continue to be.
Good luck to you on your “vision quest”, but don’t bother to tell me how it goes. I’ve seen enough already.
Ralph, I’m not quite sure why you take offense to my choices. I appreciate the feedback you have given me, but don’t pretend to know what the outcome of my decisions will be. Nor do i appreciate being referred to as a burden to society.
Rotten Ralph, This sanctimonious bullying and disrespectful, demeaning language is way out of line. You found a way to make Brian’s personal decision about you (“cost to society”) in order to justify attacking him. You don’t know him, and he is not asking for permission.
I didn’t “blacklist” McGowdog, but I certainly will blacklist you if you continue to bring this kind of abuse to other members here.
Oh Ralph, I don’t know — I have seen too much one size fits all diagnosis and sentencing these days, especially of younger people. I teach at one of the more drunken schools in the country (yes!) so I find out a lot because of learning the reasons why someone has to miss a midterm (court dates, for instance; I’ve even had people phone from central lockup to say please not to drop them from the class, they’ll be back!).
I know people who should probably be in state prison and aren’t; I know raging alcoholics who have been sentenced to 8 AA meetings and have “learned” there that they don’t actually have a problem, and on, and on. I also know people who’ve gotten into some trouble but have taken it seriously and don’t need to be *quite* as worried about it as they have become.
When I was Brian’s age, sentences and things were lighter and the authorities were less paranoid. Lots of people had some trouble in their teens and then straightened up. Around 25 is when that happens, it seems to me. In my experience, loading gloom and doom onto people that young is counterproductive — a caution light works better. Also, if you don’t let them figure some stuff out for themselves, they’ll never feel they really know.
I guess I could be called an “enabler” for saying that, but I disagree. My point is more like, if you don’t give people some responsibility, they’ll never have a chance to learn independence or leadership. Also: if you refuse to talk to them because they’re not doing things exactly as you would, then you’re not really leading, either (it being the case that leading isn’t directing).
(I realize I’ve sort of gone into faculty advisor mode on this, but I don’t think it’s entirely out of place: too many people are made to follow their directors exactly until they’re 30, which is too old; too many others are abandoned to their own devices at 18, which is too young; there’s a middle ground.)
As anyone can discern from the type of comments on this blog, AA is under increased scrutiny and it really can’t defend its abysmal “success” rate. To further illustrate this point, here is an example of what is going on in the Addiction Treatment industry. This is from the website for an upcoming addiction conference -
“Experts agree that the current systems for the treatment of addictions are inadequate in terms of policy, structure, methodology, and treatment efficacy. Only a small minority of addicted individuals receive the evidence-based treatment they need. This conference brings together policy makers, administrators, clinicians and researchers who will outline a new frontier in addiction services and discuss ways to adopt and implement a more expeditious, user-friendly, cost effective and evidence-based system. Speakers will be urged to brainstorm new ideas and think outside the box.”
The “current systems for the treatment of addictions are inadequate” refers to 12 Step faith-healing, religious approaches. The world of addiction medicine is trying to break the stranglehold that the ineffectual AA monopoly has on addiction treatment. And rightly so.
The web site: http://www.addictions-conference.elsevier.com/
Modern medicine and the increased awareness of the fallacies of the faith-healing approach are surrounding AA and will eventually drive it into a religious corner, where it belongs. Wonderful new treatments like the Sinclair Method, Harm Reduction, SMART Recovery, LifeRing, SOS, Rational Recovery and others are proving that people can quit without a God and even moderate their drinking without jails, institutions or death.
This is an exciting time for the addiction treatment industry!
That’s awesome SoberPJ! I have been fantasizing about a convention of some sort… It seems like the very best way to inspire some progress in the industry. Great news!!
O good! I’ve been thinking about that post by Anonymous Of Course, for whom AA seems to have worked precisely because he took it in a relaxed way (except for the not drinking part). How did he manage this, I wondered?
Theory: he kept in mind that it really was optional, non professional mutual aid. That meant he didn’t do as some of us have done, namely, take it like a prescription (you go a licensed doctor for a known health problem, there is a treatment that is known to work, you follow it to the letter because that is what makes it work).
So the problem with the 12 steps, as has been said before in this blog, is that it has gotten to be the “gold standard” and is seen as professional when it also explicitly isn’t. So it has an out either way; this is how you get the accountability problem.
Very good that it’s getting dethroned.
Friendthegirl:
Are you still smarting over my criticism of your advice to Brian? He is a 25 year old drug user who has been in weekly therapy for 6 years, who is contemplating a return to his former lifestyle. You encouraged him and advised him to keep a journal of his experiences – I advised him quite otherwise, at length and based on my experiences and finally questioned the cost to society of his past/future lifestyle (i.e., rehabs, therapy, court costs, etc.). I saw nothing in your training and experience that would qualify you to make a recommendation as careless as yours, and I challenge you to find a real MD that would.
Your approach is much like that of some AA old timers who toss a fiver to a newcomer and tell him or her to go back to the bars and “do some more research”.
If you want to be highhanded and bar me from this site for what I said to poor Brian, that’s fine; go ahead. I won’t be censored by you or anyone else either here or anywhere else (ever hear of the First Amendment? – I once put my life on the line so you and others could have websites like this ).
I have been getting a little bored anyway with all the criticism of AA here, with few ideas presented for workable ways for addicts to recover. RECOVER, right, not RELAPSE - can you fathom the difference between these two words? Here’s another word in the R’s for you to consider: RESPONSIBILITY, both for the addict and for those dealing with them. How can an addict learn that while drinking or using?
I hope you will at least leave my postings here, so visitors can see that AA is not the only dogmatic, controlling game in town!
Well Ralph, you’re way out of line. Go to a meeting or something, maybe?
Z:
That was cute! There’s a lot of “cute” on this site, but little more. Anyway, I was hoping that FTG would respond with backing from a REAL doctor qualified to deal with addicts (like the one I saw 31 years ago), but all I have so far is your response.
In NYS, as little as two years of college (with a very easy curriculum) can get a person into the alcoholism counseling racket, and just four years gets one a CAC certificate. I had two friends in that business, and neither could do much else. No wonder the success rate for rehabs here is only 1%!
Gotta go – don’t want to miss the steps readings!
Ralph, this is a discussion board, not a virtual medical clinic, and you know it. Go.
.
Ralph,
I engaged your first response to Brian respectfully, explained my own reasoning, and acknowledged that your advice might prove to be the wisest. I never insisted that I had the correct approach.
And you can believe that my response to your abusive comment to Brian was a genuine response to your abusiveness. Really. Believe it. The fact that you don’t think I could actually have a legitimate reason for responding as I did suggests to me that you probably don’t know how abusive that was. I mean, you actually imply that we’re draconian because you aren’t allowed to be a bully.
I will not censor comments or opinions. I didn’t censor yours, and it’s not because you thought you needed to shame me into leaving it up. I’m not going to ban you unless you continue to treat members the way you treated Brian. I don’t know if you understand why that was abusive (I suspect not), but I’m just not going to tolerate it. I have a great threshold for heated debates and all kinds of smack-talking and tantrums, but this wasn’t one of those situations.
Considering what your expectations for this blog are (Doctors’ advice, substance abuse counseling, support group, treatment suggestions…) I think you might want to have another look at the tagline up there. Why the heck would someone come to someone’s blog and chide them for not writing about something completely different? We have a focus.
Finally, thanks for defending the 1st Amendment. I am sorry you don’t really know what it means.
Ralph,
It looks like you’re trying to define what is “real recovery” for Brian and what is not. When Brian explains why making his own choice is important to him, you warn him of the dismal fate that awaits him and insist that your way is better than his. Then you go on to accuse ftg of being an enabler because she supports Brian’s decision.
I’ve seen this type of thinking somewhere else before… but I can’t remember where.
Ralph you would be better suited to AA. People there love dictating to people what they should and shouldn’t do.
Brian needs to discover this himself what does and deosn’t work, cautiously and with knowledge of other peoples experience.
Forcing abstainence doesn’t work it potentially creates guilt induced binge drinking. Prohibition didn’t work, ironically, AA was formed shortly after.
I think writing a diary is an excellent idea, then you can see whether you have control. Infact its what my local addiction services recommend
Why is it that the people who are apt to cite the first amendment, don’t understand the first amendment?
Brian, I think it is a brilliant idea to write things down in a diary so you can look back and see your thoughts emerging.
I found it helpful to write down beliefs I may have internalised, eg.
I have a deep spiritual disease
If I have one sip of an alcoholic drink, I will be unable to control myself from drinking uncontrollably.
If I don’t join the cult (I call it the cult, that’s just me), I will inevitably die.
Until I have been in the cult for some time, and have ‘worked the steps’, I must not trust my own human intelligence at all.
I am powerless and I need to join a cult.
I eventually need to go and get more vulnerable people, tell them to join the cult or they will die.
You decide what you want to do, Brian, but you must examine whatever barmy beliefs you may have been infected by.
I assume you have read the orange papers? My advice is that you find your own mind, and keep on informing yourself. No one here is demanding that you live your life in a certain way. I am advising that you continue to inform yourself.
I welcome Ralph and anyone else from aa to come on here. I hope they go back to their cult meetings and warn people that the end is indeed nigh.
Well done Brian on thinking for yourself. If they had you at 19 …
All the best Brian and stick around here. If you have any questions you will get answers from individuals, not a self-perpetuating cult.
I can’t find it, but in the dark days when I thought I was alone in these thoughts, I wrote a list of all the adjectives that aa (official aa literature, not quotes from internet boards) used to describe the (artificial construct known as) the ‘alcoholic’.
They were pretty awful and I have to admit I am longing to find them (buried in the many, many cheap school exercise books (copybook?) that I filled in the time I was subjected to the dangerous tripe of the rooms).
They went somewhere along these lines:
selfish, manipulative, cunning, dishonest…
(Yet another inversion of the truth; these are all words I would use to describe apologists for this cult)
I think that Orange’s chapter on ‘Us Stupid Drunks conspiracy’ is very important. We do not have a disease in common. We are not a homogenous group in any way. We are people who wish the truth about the 12 step movement to be known (I think).
I know that this is not a forum for advice, but if I may break that rule, I would strongly advise that Brian keep his writings carefully dated and kept in some sort of order as they go along. I am currently putting together a big jigsaw puzzle of my copious writings from those 4 years.
I bet the cult will be very sad to lose you, Brian. If you joined at the very beginning of your adult life, you could have become a real poster boy.
Have you asked your family or friends to look at the orange papers or this site? It occurs to me again and again (and I know that I may sound like a salvation story but in my own life, it is not an exaggeration) that it was the black and white words on a screen that saved me. If your family are keen on you going to aa, they may think that you are going through (the artificial construct of) denial.
I just would like to clarify a few things based on the past few comments. I have been in therapy since January. I quit smoking in December and my anxiety skyrocketed, so I wanted to deal with that. I also did some therapy over last summer for anxiety and school/family issues. It is AA/NA that I have been regularly doing for the past 6 years.
FTG has not told me it is okay to go back to my past lifestyle of drug abuse. This isn’t the question I even asked. What I am trying to explore is whether or not it is possible to moderate while AVOIDING falling into the problems that I have in the past. The occasional all night rave, for example. I am not the same person I was before. I’m independent, pay my rent/bills, have a decent job, and will most likely be starting my masters degree soon. In the past I had dropped out and couldn’t hold a job, and would stay awake for days at a time. That is certainly not a lifestyle I am hoping to return to. The reality is that the answers AA have given me are no longer sufficient. I am trying to find real information regarding addiction to come up with an answer that I feel comfortable with. Maybe that answer will be that I should not experiment, and it ends there.
@Primrose: Thanks for the feedback. It sounds like you have been able to undo a lot of the thinking that AA stuck into your head. I’ve began reading some of the Orange Papers, but I haven’t gotten through much yet. I read a lot of the AA Deprogramming site too, which has been very helpfull.
As you said, I think writing will be very helpful. Right now I kind of cycle through feeling confident and feeling afraid, so getting it all out might make things more clear.
I do not think that my family will be interested in that site. I am not really in touch with my parents at this point, but when I tell my mother that I left AA it will be a huge issue. She worked at the rehab that I went through and speaks the recovery lingo pretty well. There is a chance she will decide to cut contact with me as long as I am not completely abstinent. But I cannot make my decisions based on conditional acceptance from her.
@Brian, rock on. I admire you. I’ve also cycled through feeling confident I didn’t need to think of myself in these 12 step terms, and fearing I did. Much more doubt in the past than now, but I’m still detoxing myself from it, as is evident.
).
I just read through an earlier part of this thread than I had before, from April, rebuttals to the AAer Heather. It was long ago I realized there was something wrong with the 12 step paradigm, and I basically spent a whole summer writing it out. Yes I wanted to just walk away (as she recommends), say well no, not that, on to the next thing. But it’s not like a restaurant you just decide not to return to, or like trading in your car; it’s not even like something serious like grieving a death; it’s rejigging a whole, destructive way in which you’ve been taught to think of yourself. That takes some effort and it’s a pretty cheap shot (and also a low blow) to claim it’s “self pity” or “wallowing in despair.”
Someone upthread used the term “mental rape;” I think that’s about right. They also said their goal wasn’t just to get over it personally, but to do that and also bring the whole thing down. I am for that, too (after all, what was that about helping others?
And – P.S. – more on getting over it. People think I *am* over it, because I got over the depressive crisis I had as a result of it, and accomplished a lot of other things.
The way in which you can tell I’m not over it is, I’m still not as high functioning as I was originally (and no, I was not “overfunctioning” due to “denial” or any such rot).
So what am I doing in the time I am neither working, nor playing, nor relaxing or sleeping? I am fighting the demon of 12 step ways of thinking about the self, so as to get all of myself back! And it’s a serious battle, it’s not “wallowing,” or “complaining,” or “overanalyzing.”
I used to try to just walk away or move on ahead, but would get blindsided by the 12 step admonishments and lose energy/focus, as though a cylinder had gone out or something, and I wouldn’t understand it. I finally realized I had to do what Primrose said, write out what their messages were and work out the rebuttals that apply to them — and then practice these, so I could use them automatically when necessary.
Laborious? yes. Time consuming? Yes. Incomprehensible to people who haven’t been through it? Yes. Necessary? For me, yes, it’s been the only thing that actually helped. (It might have helped, too, to be in a position to shed my skin, leave it all literally behind, but I’m sure that even so, I’d have had to work some of it out.)
Thanks, Z. It sounds like you are really dedicated to overcoming the 12-step mindset and developing a new self-image. You mentioned that it is not like leaving a restaurant, and I know for me I have to acknowledge that recovery from recovery will be a gradual process. Being told something over and over again makes it sink in deep whether we are aware of it at the moment. So, rock on!
I have a question about the words “stinkin thinkin.” AA members used to use the term to describe thinking that was contrary to the AA party line. Now days it seems a lot of members use the term to deride the concept of thinking at all. “Working a good program” is defined as just accepting the thoughts of Chairman Bill without questioning anything. Thinking itself is frowned upon by hardline members of the cult. My sponsor once pointed to a sign at the AA hall that said THINK and announced that the sign should say Don’t Think. Nobody challenged her about that and I believe that hostility to independent thought is becoming generalized in AA as a whole.
I found that it takes some time and a focused effort to get beyond the 12 step mindset. AA words, slogans and concepts have taken root in the general population and this makes it more difficult to move on even after you stop going to meetings and find freinds outside of the “I am diseased” mentality. It takes some time to stop thinking that you are in recovery for the rest of your life. It took about two years for me to stop calling myself a recovering alcoholic. I simply call myself a non drinker or a teetotaler. Once you become comfortable with using non aa speak you can internalize your non aa persona. Nothing requires you to use the term recovering alcoholic even though a few people will argue with your new self description. It also helps to keep reading information that validate simple concepts like the fact that abstinence is sobriety, and that words like dry drunk do not apply to you. Reading posts here and reading the latest letters to The Orange Papers also help you get beyond the stinkin thinkin that defines AA.
Gracias, Brian … Martha, yes, the anti-thinking mentality. It’s part of the nationwide don’t think for yourself mentality, I am convinced.
Martha, the very term “stinking thinking” is abusive and self-deprecating, I find — like calling yourself “stupid.”
If I look at lists online of what “stinking thinking” is, and then try to tell myself I am “in denial” if I think I am not thinking that way or if my thoughts don’t fit those paradigms exactly, then I also feel oppressed / out of touch.
People have internalized this idea that you should “be gentle with yourself,” and I find one non useful result of that to be that they don’t want you to criticize any of your own work. But I’ve got pieces I like better and that I like worse, and I’d like to recognize the pieces I like better, and take credit for them, not just say it’s all good (so the good ones are no better than the others).
I also prefer to be able to look at errors, but not call myself “stupid” in general, or call my thought processes “stinking.”
I mean, really — how much is one supposed to go on using abusive language toward oneself and introjecting this lowly self image they seem to insist one assume? It’s ridiculous.
@poet: you prolly have heard this sort of thing b4, but i was looking at this thread and saw your lunatic sponsor wanted you to make an amends to your abuser…you are, without equivocation, not alone in that. i struggled with this for years. finally i found a chick who i am still friends with who was like, “alanon steps are not as harsh–do those.” and even then, she backs me up with taking those even with a grain of salt. i had an old sponsor (another woman) who was (stop reading if you are sensitive) raped by her own father. she said she was dishonest (“where was IIII wrong?”) b/c she kept it to herself. I found that this woman would get into a “funk” and not get outta bed at times. But b/c she was a good AA she never went to therapy or considered med.s b/c “God had chosen [her.] And [she] was saved by AA.” UM? True story. The more I questioned this sort of thinking openly with people who centered their lives around AA and the local meetings, the worse things got for me. Now that I am REALLY out of AA, though I worry about using, I do not worry about feeling shitty due to the company I am keeping. These sponsors who tell us to make amends, I do not think they are truly at fault. They are FU–ed up. They are living the AA crazytown ideology. They cannot get out as we did. That is my take anyway.
@Violet, it was interesting being in Mexico earlier this summer because there are a couple of political and media groups who are trying to use AA type ideas to heal the country, or so they allege (I’d say it’s more like, impose a certain right wing ideology). Anyway, one piece of propaganda I saw said that a “real leader” always tells people they are chosen by God! Chilling.
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And I guess you’re right. Some people are living the crazytown ideology and cannot get out. It’s hard for me to accept this especially since one such person in my life has been a good friend. She has decided, though, that she can’t get through the day without 12 stepping and I’ve realized, thinking about it, that her background is a lot more authoritarian than mine and that I got the opportunity to be exposed to some flexibility early on and she didn’t.
Still, the most recent time I saw this person in person, I was amazed; she seems to use the 12 steps to calm herself and justify what she does, and keep things down to a dull roar; yet she also uses them to abuse others.
So — I understand that people are FU–ed up, and one should get away from them, but also think the whole sanctification of 12 stepping should be stopped, for everyone’s protection!
*
More on this person, because she’s such a good example of what bothers me: was one of those who, in college, thought spending massive amounts of money on drugs was actually cool — I remember wondering, your sister is spending that much time/money in this destructive activity and you are going to ADMIRE that and think it’s COOL?
So years go by, then the sister is in very bad shape and in NA/AA, my friend goes to Alanon, they are both saved. (Note: their father was also a bad drunk.) OK but it seems to just put them in holding patterns; I would say OK, that’s not too bad, lots of people are, but then they seem to Gibsonize and also patronize at least certain people they’ve designated (one now being me) and I can’t help thinking NA/AA/Alanon didn’t *really* help.
I think it just taught them to let off steam safely and without enough damage to get caught or even called out. Because I’d say something if I thought it would work, but a small step toward that got me the response that “I didn’t make sense” and “They couldn’t understand” and “I was a poor communicator” … all of which meant no speech was allowed outside the cult.
*
So anyway, I’m being long winded but I mean I agree, you can’t fault individuals because they’ve gotten stuck inside this totalizing system; professionals and the general public really need to know, though.
gibsonize. like this
i feel like 12 step programs, whatever-A you might find yourself involved in personally or indirectly, fosters and encourages a sort of scapegoating as a coping mechanism. though aa teaches you to look at you–that bullshit (where was iiii wrong when i was molested/raped/made fun of/whatever)–it also teaches you to look down on/condemn/speak with condescension to the newcomer and/or relapser. it is fer sure a bag of douche mentality/ideology and it is a huge shame. i mean there are so many people who suffer or at least struggle. why cannot there be a way to cope in groups, a place to get support like the whatever-A place that is the only show in town. the masses are indeed asses.
Yes, there is that! I also guess there are more disordered personalities in there than one realizes.
It dawned on me today after 6 months of drinking the AA cool aide, this smells like a cult. I goggled AA Cult and surprise, I found this forum. Escape is will be scary, unless I move. Oh, I am not allowed to move in the first year. Wish me luck.
K
Hello K. I am pleased you have found this forum. In my opinion the two important facts about aa are that it doesn’t work and that it does a lot of people a lot of harm. Have you read the orange papers? That was the first thing that I read that convinced me that I wasn’t alone. You can plan your exit strategy. What made you think (correctly in my opinion) that it was (is) a cult?
I found the orange papers by googling, ‘How effective is aa?’. I felt as though I had been released from prison.
@K if required to go, REALLY remember “take what you need and leave the rest” and do NOT listen seriously to exhortations about “doing the whole program” unless there’s a way to do it that you really think would be helpful to you. The second (non traumatic) time I attended Alanon For A Reason, I was reading the Orange Papers at the same time. This really helped me keep my head.
@Primrose, more on the health system: I got PTSD from the bullying situation of having them work the steps on me and make me work them on myself. It really was like interrogation/ torture, as it seemed one could never be honest enough for them no matter what one did, or humble enough. So then later I had to be treated for that, still am to some extent, as it’s hard to sort out all the elements that go into the state of shell shock that can come over me.
My point: it was very difficult to find anyone who was willing to treat it or even countenance it, in part because of what I know caused it. It was so frustrating, I dreamed of going to one of those centers for torture victims! I finally did find someone but it took a lot of seeking.
This, again, is why I think your kind of plan, to ask treatment centers why they use the 12 steps, is good. I also think (and this is a good idea) that to compile and make public a list of providers who are willing to recommend or can work with other methods, and are willing to be advertised in this way, would be very useful.
K, you rock. And by the way K, if yo are in an abusive relationship, even if your life has been threatened, better stay. Just kidding. I am happy that you found this site. I too have felt like moving or joining the witness protection program myself in the past. I stopped going and had not been for months, maybe even a half of a year, then went about two weeks ago. What a waste of time. But really, it showed me that AA is in fact as creepy as it was in my head.
z, how did you find some1 willing to do this? did you have to 1st go thru many professionals who were like, oh, the 12 steps are fine, what r u talking about?
K, when I felt very uncomfortable with the whole thing, I just didn’t speak in meetings or get a sponsor. I certainly didn’t ‘do’ any steps. If you have read the orange papers you will know that only about 5% of aa members remain by the end of the first year. You are only doing what 95% if people do. Are you going to aa of your own accord or are you forced to go?
Although I don’t think that there is a disease called alcoholism, I do belief in brainwashing. Reiterating publicly one’s powerlessness is a form of brainwashing and people come to belief that it is true and so it becomes true. You must tell yourself that you are not powerless. The concept of powerlessness is bizarre and damaging.
My name is k and I am not an alcoholic.
I am not powerless over alcohol.
There are some alternative steps on exposeaa.
Thanks z, I am working down a list of all the ‘treatment’ centres used by my local authority, ie STATE MONEY, and all are 12 step so far except one that is definitely not and one which doesn’t use the 12 step model but does lay on buses to meetings if inmates want to go, which to my mind is aa, because it is an all or nothing, black and white philosophy. The ones that do use the 12 step model I want to write to, citing orange, valiant et al. I have asked Speedy if I can copy (or read and edit) what he/she has written to someone at Columbia University. I mention the orange papers as much as I can, because my fictional atheist brother is using it to avoid aa treatment. No one has heard of them so far, but all agree that he is ‘in denial’.
My idea was to inform these twunts of the truth about the tripe they are peddling, but I see your point; it would be useful to have a list of non-aa treatment centres available for people like my fictional brother.
Primerose, my realization that AA is a cult came from a white light experience. I grew REALLY depressed and lost my self esteem from the daily beatings and guilt the “elders” laid on me. What really alarmed me was discussion of my sex life. I thought, you have to be kidding!! They have no business knowing about my sex life. I was informed I would never be cured until I discussed past and present sex with “another human being”, my sponsor. What qualifies them to be sex therapists? So I goggled AA Sex, guess what I found! Big Billy was a horn dog! He made Tiger look like a saint. Many of his peers left AA due to his sex addition. His actions resembled David Koresh.
Enough on sex. I am really struggling getting away from these people. I am so glad I found this site and know there are people who feel the same. I am so tired of believing I have an incurable disease and only AA has the golden bullet. I found and read the Orange papers, thanks for the tip. Very enlightening. Thanks all, I’ll check in later. Old habits are hard to break.
K
K, the big difference between this site and the cult is that this site does not try and stop you thinking for yourself. Inform yourself. If you are going to read the orange papers, then maybe start with the chapter on effectiveness, which is neglible.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
Take it easy.
He is also good on cults. If you want to leave, plan your exit strategy.
You have a right to a private life. Do not let anybody infringe your right to a private life.
K, aa is teeming with sexual predators; I had two experiences myself which I was able to handle. Part of the reason I am here is for the benefit of vulnerable young women coerced (by whatever means) into this cult. Just because someone has been in a cult for many years is no reason to trust them. It just means they have joined a cult for many years. In my book, that is a reason not to trust them.
Take care
Do not take my, or anybody else’s word for it. Check all the references. Ask your own questions. You know this site is here now. (very platonic hug)
Violet (and maybe K) – yes, I had to go interview many, many professionals to find one who could be critical of 12 step and also deal with PTSD and also have some training in emotional abuse issues. It’s not easy to find these people at all, at least not in my experience. Often, I found that interviewing them wasn’t as good as getting recommendations, because many lie when you act direct questions or don’t think you have the right.
Or of course, I am too intimidating: I’ve got this mega academic training which means I can ask penetrating intellectual questions and expect more than a superficial answer; if they’re invested in authoritarianism or they’re insecure, they won’t like it.
What worked best for me was to listen closely to all reports of smart people seeing psychiatrists and psychologists, then ask them brazenly who they were seeing and why, and what they were like.
k, my first realisation was when I got a lift with an old-timer and I was asking about newcomers, He said, in an offhand way, that if every ‘newcomer’ (read vulnerable human) had stayed, aa would need to hire Wembley Stadium. That was when I made (in retrospect) the very good decision to not speak, get a minder, or do anything except turn up to as many meetings as I could literately bear, to form my own opinion. I joined an online forum, and heard the ops mentioned. Since I read the ops, even before, I planned my exit strategy and it hasn’t been easy. I haven’t set foot in the rooms for at least 3 years.
and 3 months.
K, you should try to divorce the 12 steppers a.s.a.p. You do not owe them any exlpaination. People here can offer support and there are programs like SMART recovery that teach self empowermment. I suggest that your first act of self empowerment might be to walk away from aa. It is creepy that your sponsor wants to know about your private life. IMHO they want to use that information to control you. Either to make you feel gulity for having a sex life or so they can get their jollies or try to involve themselves with you.
I am concerned that you express fear and that you think it necessary to move. If that is the case you should call the authorities, get an attorney and at the very least have your non 12 step friends check in on you. When I left I gave no explaination and I was glad I had not shared my personal history in meetings and did not confide in my sponsor. Don’t worry about what members of the cult think of your departure even if they assume it means you are having a slip. Your life is none of their business. Even if you are currently under some sort of mandatory order to go to aa remember that an attorney can invoke the Federal Court decision that says that people can no longer be required to go to aa because in the court’s opinion aa is a religion and non aa groups must be offerd to you.
Always remember; abstinence is sobriety. you are not powerless. you do not have to be in recovery the rest of your life. there is no such thing as a dry drunk. once you stop you are by definition sober and you move on with your life.
From The Orange Papers; How AA Steals Your Soul
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-RobertWarner.html
All,
Thanks for your help and advice! I feel very confident in my ability to stay sober. I will look into SMART recovery. Its good to hear there are no dry drunks.
K
Remember k, you are not powerless. That is a very powerful myth, spread by the cult. If you want to leave, plan your exit strategy. Inform yourself. Inform yourself. Inform yourself. Auntie Google is your friend. All best, and congratulations on getting your head back.
Stanton Peele video on the myth of the dry drunk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gep1nv3MS8w
Peele has a number of videos on Youtube that debunk the 12 step cult. K, very good to hear that you are confident. Self confidence (self will) is consdered to be “stinkin thinkin” in 12 step groups. I said in a meeting one time that my self confidence was returning and when I did suddenly the prohibition on cross talk went out the window and I was told by several aa members that self confidence will lead me back to drinking! They turn reality on its head with that sort of crap. They resent those of us who exude self confidence.
K, so you got beat up in AA?
Also whats a horn dog?
kurtrambus, if you call mind f..ed by the step work beat up, yea. I didn’t know there were recovery alternatives. I was told AA was the only solution. I don’t know what was worse drinking or my loss of self esteem.
A horn dog is a man who who like a male dog humps everything in sight Like another well know Bill, William Jefferson C.
K
“your stinkin thinkin get you here”
thats SMART
SMART sponsors, sponsors sponsors
CBT REBT cognitive therapy – Albert Ellis, Aaron Beck
???
am I right or are you wrong?
to much aa & 12step here. Byebye
D’oh!
k,
Validation was a really important pert of the deprogramming process for me. AA’s soul surgery had planted a real sicko 12 stepper deep inside of my head… I was abusing the shit outta myself and I thought I’d go crazy. Someone referred to “my inner stepper” the other day and I laughed my ass of because I sure do understand what that means.
My advice to you is to cut all ties. Don’t even go to recovery forums dominated by AA… They will just feed your “inner stepper.” You need to starve that bitch out.
Stick around here and interact with healthy people who are too smart for their own goods.
Read lotsa stuff about how AA sucks. People are talking out there. You are not alone in this. Don’t be afraid to think for yourself again.
There are a ton of links at my site…
http://exposeaa.webs.com/
Whatever you do!!!! Don’t let anyone tell you that leaving AA will cause you to drink… You can’t make it without them… You are morally reprehensible because you are breaking free of AA… Your thinking is fucked up and you will eventually fail… You are powerless… Other methods are like whistling in the dark… Any brainwashing bullshit must go!!!!!!
Erase all of the AA freaks #s from your phone. (even the folks who you think are really nice and only wanted to help) Lose any links to 12 step recovery sites. Tell your sponsor you are NO LONGER INTERESTED! Stop taking calls from cult wacko’s.
That’s the best advice I can give you.
Going back to the same well to drink the same dirty water over and over again will only make you sicker. Stop picking at the wound and let it heal.