Stinkin' Thinkin'

Maybe the “Miracle” finally happened……………….???

FTG and MA ,you did the right thing. If Dombeck’s blog is any example it would be how Tony and to some extent Mcowdog would take it over. He did the same thing here and believe me he would not stop until all dialog was extinguished. It is his form of censorship.

He definitely has a messianic complex! It’s so interesting that they can come here, insult everybody for so long, and still play the victim when banned. Tony J, your cross is calling you.

Both Tony and McGowDog have violent tendencies. Typical fascist mindset .

@ Mike. I have not seen many examples of AA members who are capable of having a give and take discussion. On their blogs they delete and boot dissenting voices and when they come here or to other counter AA sites they resort to insults and attacks. I think the reason for this is they really believe they are powerless and can only commit to being sober for a 24 hour period and their grasp on sobriety is so weak that any questioning can push them to drink. I really wonder sometimes if the steppers who say they want AA to get back to its roots have the Oxford Group’s far right politics in mind. Don’t forget that Buchman admired fascists and attended nazi rallies in the 1930s.

tony j reminds me of foster brooks crossed with polonius
let him live in that little dream world that he has created for himself

@Mike – I relate to you a lot. Sometimes I wonder why it took me so long to get to this place. I have seen posts and read books of individuals who find this out in 6 months or so.

He’s just warming up folks… Stay tuned for more.

Well I did post it in another place on this blog, but I think is it worth posting again here.

“God and the devil were walking down a path one day when God spotted something sparkling by the side of the path. He picked it up and held it in the palm of his hand.

“Ah, Truth,” he said.

“Here, give it to me,” the devil said. “I’ll organize it.”

Source: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-03/living/spiritual.but.not.religious_1_spiritual-community-religious-god?_s=PM:LIVING

Ralph are you one of Tony J’s disciples? I can see violations of 1,2 and 4. Perhaps you can go wave your flag on their blog. Shit, he should have been banned for being stupid. Maybe we can enact a new rule.

MA: You said it perfectly: it was becoming TJ’s blog. TJ is entitled to his opinion, but he isn’t entitled to hijack your blog.

About the CHIT SYSTEM…..
I think I left AA about Sept/Oct 2010. At every meeting the secretary would mention that they had the CHIT and if anyone needed them signed for probation then just see the secretary at the end of the meeting.
Although I had nothing to do with probation, Social Services wanted me to also have these slips signed for me, as proof I was attending AA meetings.
Sorry its took so long to get back to you guys on this, but I’m a bit thick and could’nt find this bloody thread.

So this is already in place. AA has lent itself to the UK justice system. What I personally found frustrating is the times I did’nt make it to an AA meeting due to child care. But Social Services would look at these slips as a committment to my sobriety. The more slips I had, the more it would help my case getting my kids back.

So this is already in place. AA has lent itself to the UK justice system. What I personally found frustrating is the times I did’nt make it to an AA meeting due to child care. But Social Services would look at these slips as a committment to my sobriety. The more slips I had, the more it would help my case getting my kids back.

Sounds like chit to me.

Thanks Acacia. Could we talk about this in the community pages? I didn’t know about this.

Amoral? I’d not say that was true FTG, as it would signify a large degree of flexibility in thought and the ability to understand the different facets of an issue or organization.

But, it’s something you could strive for.

Is it my imagination or did JD’s posts lighten up a bit when Tony J. was posting?

Mike and G2K, you know that is just anecdotal evidence!

Listen it is rather simple to come back to a web site you were banned from. Use a different computer, floating proxy ect…
What is sad is the motivation.

That business with Ted Williams is absolutely heartbreaking. Like watching a train coming down the tracks, with Ted tied to it.

It is a bad situation. “Dr” Phil should have stayed out of it. He is the very model of: “people who go visiting in other people’s lives.”

The Ted Williams story could be an excellent time for Stinkiin Thinkin Activists to start putting out stories to the mass media about the destruction 12 Step Programs cause. This is a prime example. Something along the lines of how they are going to make him relapse multiple times to break his will and spirit.

Review of The Big Book from From The Journal of the American Medical Association
Oct.14, 1939: http://www.morerevealed.com/archives/jama–big-book–review.html

“The seriousness of the psychiatric and social problem represented by addiction to alcohol is generally underestimated by those not intimately familiar with the tragedies in the families of victims or the resistance addicts offer to any effective treatment.

Many psychiatrists regard addiction to alcohol as having a more pessimistic prognosis than schizophrenia. For many years the public was beguiled into believing that short courses of enforced abstinence and catharsis in “institutes” and “rest homes” would do the trick, but now that the failure of such temporising has become common knowledge, a considerable number of other forms of quack treatment have spring up.

The book under review is a curious combination of organising propaganda and religious exhortation. It is in no sense a scientific book, although it is introduced by a letter from a physician who claims to know some of the anonymous contributors who have been “cured” of addiction to alcohol and have joined together in an organisation which would save other addicts by a kind of religious conversion. The book contains instructions as to how to intrigue the alcoholic addict into acceptance of divine guidance in place of alcohol in terms strongly reminiscent of Dale Carnegie and the adherents of the Buchman (“Oxford”) movement.

The one valid thing in the book is the recognition of the seriousness of addiction to alcohol. Other than this, the book has no scientific merit or interest.”

AA never had any original merit. Ever. Period. The percentages in the bb are complete fabrications. Only 5% got sober then, only 5% get sober now and it’s not because of AA. It’s because they used their willpower to get sober and gave credit to AA.

Nobody desires scientific solutions in the bb because there are none. There never will be. The fact that AA engages, and always will engage in willful ignorance of anything remotely scientific, and to the extent that people have worse relapses, untold misery and higher death rates from drinking because of it is absolutely criminal.

Not just Ted but all high profile people stuck in the same bs. I have been looking up UK celebs who have been involved in this. Some out themselves. Some of them are highly intelligent.

On exposeaa, someone said that one of two things would have to happen to propel this vile cult into the media spotlight. Either one of the anti-aa movement would be killed or a celeb (Lindsay Lohan was an example) would be moved by their own experience to speak out.

Relapse is part of recovery.
Wether you are in AA or not.
AA does two important things.
Firstly, It gives people solid, practical tools to stay sober by actually looking at why and how you became an addict and some tools on how to approach life that work so you can stay sober. Practical guidelines.
Secondly, it gives recovering addicts a like-minded community, new sober friends who can relate to what you are going through. Which is one of the most important parts to sobriety. New friends.
AA is not all good or all bad. I am startled at the vitriol on this site towards it.
I have seen it work for many, many people. In fact, of the dozens of recovered addicts I know the most successful ones STARTED in AA. One friend, he was in AA for 7 years. Then left because he felt certain he would never use heroin again but he was ready to drink. So, he left that model. With no rancour. As he said, it had a time and a place and suited his needs at that time. Then it didn’t. Big deal. 16 years of a manageable life.
Another friend she started in AA but also realized that her use of alcohol and weed are not gateway drugs towards her drug of choice, crystal meth, so she has stayed away from AA. She sometimes goes to CMA but finds there is less clean time and stability, inspiration in the members than in AA. She also uses AA/NA occasionally as she feels it is appropriate for her. Four years now of a manageable life.
My brother on the other hand, at 3 years off heroin, cannot drink or smoke or anything at this time. Altering his mind in any way has proven to him that it will drive him to his DOC (drug of choice) at this stage of his recovery. AA and his recovery house gave him a super cool dedicated group of new friends who support each other to stay clean, have fun etc. He isn’t dogmatic or weird about AA but it is working for him and a lot of other people I know.
AA doesn’t work for everyone. Nor is it the only path. AA won’t necessarily be needed by all who use it forever. Those who return to alcohol, or weed or whatever have not failed. Even my AA friends know this. The marker is, has your life spiralled out of control, is your life unmanageable due to your substance use? Not every addict can start with casual use. Some former addicts can never alter or don’t ever want to alter, again.
Though there is this understanding about casual use the organization works because it enforces total sobriety for the time that it is needed to get the emotional/ physiological addiction under control for those people who need that!!
There may be weird stuff in the internal workings of AA. I don’t know. I have only been to half a dozen open meetings to support friends or attend cakes.
All I can say is I have seen many of my horribly addicted friends and family get sober with the help of AA. Though many have left after a few years, they are amazing, vibrant people who maintain sobriety (manageable life not abstinence). Some have not left and are vibrant, amazing people who are sober and abstinent.
AA works for enough people that there is merit in it. Period.

@Petal – I have heard of AA meetings where the focus was on solid, practical tools to battling addiction. But they were all meetings that existed 25-30 years ago, during the big boom of AA.

To be fair, I also heard some bits of practical advise in my meeting last year. But mostly I heard about the powerlessness of the alcoholic over his or her problem. “Solid, practical tools” were openly scoffed at and those who used them are ridiculed or pitied for their lack of understanding. The AAs who come in here agree. Complete dependence on the meeting, 12 step program and “higher power” is the core of today’s AA. The alcoholic himself can do nothing.

So I would not necessarily recommend AA as a way for getting started on a road to sobriety. For people who can ignore the program and take advantage of the instant AA community, that might work. For others, it’s a potential death sentence. IMO, anyone who truly buys into AAs powerlessness is not dealing with their issues and is not adopting practical solutions, but is just undermining themselves and setting themselves up for pointless relapses and deepening despair.

Relapse is part of recovery!!! what a load of bull! if thats the case, then no one would be capable of staying sober for more than a short time. There are people that stay sober for 20,30,40 years.
If some people see relapse as part of recovery, then they set themselves up. Self fulfilling prophesy. What a load of cack!

Time and time again I heard in meetings that only other alcoholics could understand other alcoholics. This was such f**k-up speak! For gawd sake, when I was in rehab, none of the staff were in recovery, but they understood. They had years and years and qualifications of working with all addicts, drinking,drugs,gambling, self-harm and so forth. We were taught about triggers, CBT, PSYCHO ANALYSIS, PERSON CENTRED THERAPY. It was a Holistic approach. It was important that we expressed our feelings. CBT,PSYCHO ANALYSIS AND PERSON CENTRED THERAPY were the tools we were taught.

@ Petal,
Thanks, AA can be a place for rebuilding. Great testimony.
@howlerMonkey
Yeah, your right on the money in most of your post. Ya know if you wanted you could get the correct definition that AA was referring to for “powerlessness” or you can just stick with the one you heard from everyone else or the one you made up.
Second thought here, 25-30 years ago I was in AA and we were trying to get clean and sober. I was one of those heroin/cocaine addicts and Wild Irish Rose drinkers. AA was well into it’s decent back then because of the overload of treatment center hostages inundating AA. Jesus we even had people going to mental wards trying to bring the message to schizophrenics, (who we getting our fifth step from today Timmy or Johnny literally).
AA to me is plain and simple. I went there because I could hang with other drunks and junkies. We were trying to put the pieces back together of our life we blew up. I saw others I knew on the street (and wondered where they had gone) in AA, they looked good, sounded good and were working towards a better life.
This is the AA I knew, nobody ran around trying to intellectualize the fucking dream, we were not drinking or shooting dope, staying out for 2-3 days (on a run) leaving wifes and kids behind, jobs lost, jails and hospitals. The nightmare had subsided and i was with others who knew of my pain. They did not feel sorry for me, they just knew and were there.
If you can not understand that you are powerless over alcohol and drugs then fine. I am not going to argue with you because I don’t know that world. I just know what I went through and if it wasn’t for God, family, friends and a understanding that dope and whiskey was more powerful then me. Well I would not be here, simple as that. I am grateful my family did not have to remember me as “waste of human potential”.
Ya know guys here on this blog it is real simple, you may not be alcoholics and addicts. Be happy your not or be happy you are. I am. I get to help people like me.
I guess many of you here are helping people like you.

Acacia H says

“Time and time again I heard in meetings that only other alcoholics could understand other alcoholics. This was such f**k-up speak! For gawd sake, when I was in rehab, none of the staff were in recovery, but they understood. They had years and years and qualifications of working with all addicts, drinking,drugs,gambling, self-harm and so forth. We were taught about triggers, CBT, PSYCHO ANALYSIS, PERSON CENTRED THERAPY. It was a Holistic approach. It was important that we expressed our feelings. CBT,PSYCHO ANALYSIS AND PERSON CENTRED THERAPY were the tools we were taught.”

Yes, because it seems that you were lucky enough to get into a program that saw you as a person first and an ‘addict’ second. 12-step “therapy” is not about seeing you as a unique human being who happens to have developed an addiction – it’s 100% about seeing you as an ‘alcoholic’ and exactly the same as any other addict. Every statement you make and everything you do is judged through the prism dictated by those of the faith. There’s no room for real people, with their own psychology and their own history allowed. Snap judgements and inferences are made about you by people who have minimal understanding of (and less training in) basic human psychology.

The ‘only one alcoholic can understand another’ is complete and utter bollocks – all this is about is convincing steppers that they are the only people who can be of any ‘help’ to other alcoholics, and this is why so many rehab places are wholly staffed by unqualified people. It is so dangerous that they should think like this, and even more appalling that they have managed to convince even the medical community of this.

The steppers who ‘treated’ my family member obviously had no understanding of him at all, even though he was very definitely a ‘fellow’ alcoholic. It didn’t occur to them that trying to bully him into a belief in the supernatural was really the not right way to go about delivering the ‘holistic’ treatment they advertised in their glossy brochures, nor was it particularly likely to deliver the desired outcome. He found the non-alcoholic , mainstream counsellor he saw during his ‘aftercare’ infinitely more helpful. Maybe because this person actually had some proper qualifications and training in helping people deal with addiction problems and had the skill to help him sort out his issues from the starting point of where he was coming from personally? (Seems like psychology 101 to me, but obviously a bit too complex for most steppers to comprehend.)

@diablo “. . .if it wasn’t for God, family, friends and a understanding that dope and whiskey was more powerful then me.”

@diablo, I appreciate your sincerity and your story, but why do you think that dope and whisky are more powerful than you? Dope and whisky are not sentient beings; they’re not out to get you. They have no ‘power’. You have absolute power to choose whether you drink whisky or smoke dope or not – they don’t have any kind of power to make you do it. Which makes you the infinitely more powerful one in all this. And by choosing not to drink or dope (as you presumably have) you have actually proved it.

diablo says

“@human,
take your treatment center nostalgia and your nice slogans from your counselors and put them on the right side of your list (AA should be on the left). Now look at your list they will be equal, if your honest.
You sound like a stepford mutant, who was cloned and programmed.
Your not better for it my friend.”

Oh shit, I actually posted what I though was a rational (and sympathetic) answer to this person, and then he comes up with this in the meantime. Oh well . . . will know better next time.

Jcal,
I hear ya, brother. Don’t miss those buggars.

@howler,
Please show me the quotes people used for such a intellectual Treatment Center definition of powerlessness.
That’s the first question, second. Isn’t the whole premise of the BB based on being a alcoholic. So while in the cusps of my alcoholism and drug addicted life I had a inability to control the “most basic emotional and Intellectual aspects of my life”.
I will say WTF I want to say whether you like it or not. I am sick and tired of reading your two day in the program BS. Yes you can intellectualize the shit out of AA, good for you. You went to school, problem with that is your floating above the real problem. You and your intellect fly right by the answer.
I don’t care if I am banned or not, got it. Good. If you dish it out stop fucking crying and take it.
Now back to are gentlemanly ways.
Good Day!!!!!

Much like everything else I learned in AA, the definition of powerlessness changed as I became more involved.

At first powerlessness seemed like something I could relate to. Powerless was more of a feeling that it’s literal implication. I definitely felt powerless over alcohol.

As time went on I went to more meetings and read more AA literature> More was revealed. The powerless concept became very much in alignment with the concept of original sin. As an alcoholic fallen from God’s grace I was powerless over people, places, things, and most of all my own emotions and behaviors. The only thing that could save me was God’s grace.

@diablo…

Treatment center lingo is AA lingo. The AA you’d like to believe in does not exist.

You go on with your fantasy… put all of the pathetic people in their places… and revive the spirit and principles of fantasy AA if you’d like.

How’s that workin’ for ya?

@Humanspirit,
Yes, I do feel very fortunate. Before entering that rehab, I’d been in and out of AA for 5years. I even introduced my sister to AA. That was before the rehab experience. After I finished rehab, I was asked to attend an AA meeting by my sister whillst visiting her.
I was shocked, because when she spoke at the AA meeting her whole vocabulary changed. She talked in slogans. Everybody in that meeting sounded the same. The same old pat. This was not the sister that I once knew.
I reminded that there was no cross talk in these meetings. Something I was’nt use to in rehab. Our thought and perceptions were challenged in rehab. I was taught in rehab that I was’nt powerless over alcohol and that it was a choice to drink or not to drink.
So when I started to go to AA in my new area I knew they were talking a load of crap. Thankfully my sister stopped going AA after being in the fellowship for 8 years. She is still sober at14/15 years.
She saw the lunacy of these people and herself at one time.

Howler,
So now I am full of shit, OK.
Thanks

Diablo: ” No professors, counselors and definitely no science, unless it is watered down for us laymen folk. We like our AA real simple. Problem, can’t find it to much anymore.”

Well you see, diablo, it’s this pesky IQ thing. In spite of the best efforts by popular culture to counter the gradual rise in generational IQ, our kids tend to be a little smarter than we are. There are a lot of theories as to why – better nutrition, strides in education, prosperity. The net result of all this is that the little scamps are more likely to cast a critical eye on what might have been considered gospel (no pun intended) by we who came before them.

For example, we no longer think that a guy who is convulsing is possessed by a demon. We no longer whip schizophrenic people to help them snap out of it. We don’t use leeches to cure the plague. We don’t consider homosexual people to be mentally ill. We don’t doubt the ability of a black man to lead a great nation.

Sooner or later we will no longer offer mindless slogans and religious ritual as a means of countering addiction. All we need is another generation or two for that to happen. This web site is helping.

@Howler, Cause, Mike and Gunthar,
We all will sleep better knowing you 4 have AA all figured out with your collective I.Q. This is not to insinuate individually you don’t have superior I.Q’s but just think what y’all could do.
Stop being narrow minded. Open your mind.
Judges, Doctors, Lawyers, Business Owners (as myself) tradesmen, white collars, factory workers ect….. we all benefited.

Mike,
I would reply but you really did not say anything. I’m trying.

I am totally curious now, though. I am going to ask my friends in AA if and what they perceive as problems in their community.

Everyone is different. People who’ve had the self-esteem beat out of them as children, or who’ve suffered equally traumatic experiences in their developmental years often self-medicate in order to escape the pain and confusion of not understanding who they even are. There is nothing selfish or self-centered about this. The last thing these types of people need is to be convinced that their insecurities are caused by defects of character. The worst thing they could do is to deflate their ego’s even further.

friendthegirl says

“Real alcoholic” is a term that has absolutely no meaning outside of AA

diablo wrote:
This is true, no, really it is.

Friendthegirl says:

Similarly, the word “sober” in AA has absolutely nothing to do with beating addiction — it’s a spiritual condition.
We all use the same words, so we think we can talk to each other… but it’s a whole ‘nother language.

diablo wrote:
That would be dead on. Thanks.
I am not smell’in what you cook’in.

Petal says

@howler: What other practical tools where scoffed at? In my community many people who are in AA recovery groups also do therapy (we have good healthcare for addicts so it is accessible ie FREE), yoga, meditation etc…Where I live even acupuncture for recovering addicts (which has some success in treating addiction) is free.
**************************

@Petal – all those things were talked about…a little.. by a few of the people at my meeting, including myself. Either during, after or at a subsequent meeting some “old-timer” would eventually let drop about the supposed stupidity and uselessness of believing in one’s own power and carefully work in a hint to indicate which speaker had failed. When the offender was me, I also got an “are you talking with your sponsor” lecture and some talk about the importance giving up control. Some of these people themselves saw therapists, but they had no problem saying that other people’s therapy was no good (“Oh, those Jungians, so sad, they think they can fix themselves”).

But the newbies who crowed about their inability to organize their lives or their failure at their projects or their giving up on some aspect of their lives received some very unsubtle verbal back-up from the oldsters, usually right in the same meeting. You could see the warm, creepy smiles light up for them.

This main meeting is in an affluent and powerful part of a large US East Coast city. I also went to a few in the suburbs. Same thing, only a fraction more subtle. The average “sober” time for the leading lights of the main meeting was 25-30 years.

I agree that AA doesn’t HAVE to be this way. And there were a few people with several years who didn’t care about what anyone else said and came for the fellowship alone. But they didn’t set the tone for the meetings. For someone like me who was looking for what more I could do to strengthen myself against my addiction, all I was finding was ways to weaken myself.

I remember someone had tried to share that he had read that exercise is good for the newly sober. The no cross talk rule was broken when he was interrupted and informed that it wasn’t in the big book so he had no business sharing it.

causeandeffect says
I remember someone had tried to share that he had read that exercise is good for the newly sober. The no cross talk rule was broken when he was interrupted and informed that it wasn’t in the big book so he had no business sharing it.
Jcal says
Ive also witnessed silly things said like that by program gurus before. A guy once brought in to a meeting fliers for a group ski trip and some over zealous AA asswipe got loud and made a big deal about it because it was not AA approved literature! So the guy who brought in the fliers asked the the AA -power tripper if he wanted to fight and the AA guru stfu and sat back down brooding. lol The AA zealot told everybody that this guy was a loose cannon and the group started to shun him, he ‘picked up’ a week or so later and I never saw him again. Some real brotherly love in that meeting huh?

Gunthar, what is it about you that brings out the worst in these trolls? I’ve wondered about that when I see their posts to you. I can speculate. What do you think it is?

hulahoop says
Gunthar, what is it about you that brings out the worst in these trolls? I’ve wondered about that when I see their posts to you. I can speculate. What do you think it is?
I think the reason would be is that Gunthar has very strong convictions against the AA program and im sure they are warranted. And some others can see some good about the program. I myself could see AA as a positive support group if there was no steps and no AA books, but then again that wouldnt be the real AA. I am grateful that I had a place to go where there were others like me who were trying to quit also. I would have went to any support group to try to stay clean but AA is all there was. I wasnt damaged by AA but alot of people in the rooms got under my skin.

“AA works for enough people that there is merit in it. Period.”

This one always gets me. It is an ethical dillema of sorts. The Big Book and , hence the program, contain outright lies and manipulates the unwary. To endorse it as a program that “works” is to endorse lies and manipulation as viable methods for dealing with alcohol abuse. Is this ethical? Does the few lives it seems to turn around justify the many that are not helped or even harmed when there are other, more honest approaches to substance abuse treatment available? Is faith-healing and deceitful manipulation more palatable to society than scientific methods for the treatment of alcohol abuse? Today, it seems to be.

@Gunthar, given what I’ve read about your program experiences here, I can easily imagine the kind of humiliation you were subjected to. I say that because I watched it repeated many times in the rooms with those who struggled to stay sober. I do not visit AA forums, so I really don’t know what you’ve posted elsewhere.

My friends in the program started dropping like flies when I started openly suggesting that people consider giving other options a try. I never suggested that anyone leave AA, but simply that they consider “outside” help as a possible adjunct to it. At about that same time, I privately began voicing my concerns about the abuses to my sponsor and a couple of others that I felt comfortable confiding in.
That was also when the “meeting-after-the-meeting” talks changed noticeably, and what were once friendly talks became lectures; always beginning with an awkward attempt to placate by reminding me what a reasonable person I was, followed by a litany of reasons why they were so misunderstood, and I was so obviously confused. The more they lectured, the more I simply began to pay closer attention to what I was actually witnessing in the rooms. That was a painful experience because people I once thought of as friends were simply insulting me (in a loving way of course) simply because I was pointing out things that they did not think should be mentioned. It’s interesting to watch those lectures that I received in those meetings-after-the-meetings become patterns that get repeated on the internet. Those lectures couldn’t change the reality I witnessed in the rooms then, and they certainly don’t work too well on open forums. People may not be quite as willing to alter their perceptions for the sake of “fitting-in” while at the privacy of their computer, and I personally think that’s a good thing.

@SoperPJ@7:07am – That’s a big one for me too. I know at least one person who benefited somewhat from AA, though that was 25 years ago. And I’ve seen some people who were probably better off (i.e. still alive) because they were using AAs to not drink, but who were otherwise very poisonous people. But of course there’s the huge number of people that AA isn’t helping at all, and the huge number of people it is actually hurting.

One of the big features of this quasi-mythical AA-of-25-years-ago, at least this is what I was told, is that the biggest organizing principles were the Serenity Prayer and the phrase “Let go and let God.” I actually have no problem with the Serenity Prayer. It’s pretty good as prayers go. You could even substitute the word “maturity” for serenity and it works even better. And if you see “let go and let God” in that same light, then it can serve as a reminder that we can’t control everything in our lives, but we can control how we react to stuff. I can believe that an AA that emphasized these things could really help any religious or spiritually inclined person get their shit together.

But as we all know, that’s not how it is in the vast majority of meetings, not any more. So what to do? I guess I think that what we’re doing now is the right thing. It’s not like we can destroy AA anyway. It will still be there for those few who can benefit from it in whatever way they can do that. But by telling what we went through and sharing our opinions on the whys and wherefores, I hope we can keep steering people away from something that might hurt them.

Just to be clear… I took naltrexone during the last four months or so of my drinking. I don’t have to take it any more. I virtually erased my cravings and made it much easier to quit. When I first started taking it I was drinking around 16-20 beers a day… A light day might have been 10-12. Soon after I begean taking naltrexone I was down to a six pack… Within 4 months I was down to 3 or 4 beers. Alcohol just didn’t seem that important to me any more… It just made me feel bloated.

I wanted to be sure that I’d never relapse again, so I did my best to learn as much as I could about other methods. I also had some pretty serious issues at the time. I took an extended nature hike for a while. I wouldn’t trade anything for that experience.

I’m pretty honest about my life because I think that people need to know that it’s okay to not be perfect… Just because you don’t agree with AA doesn’t mean that you are selfish… you have no goals to further develop your character… humility isn’t a value that you aspire to live by… You’ve never thought about helping other people. Those people who try to cram the 12 steps dpown our throats would like us to believe that the promises have come true for them… They present themselves as some higher order of spiritual excellence. They seem to believe that because they’ve learned to parrot a few slogans they have discovered the elusive key to happy land, and no one else will ever get there unless they submit to AA’s authority. Just like me and you they ride this emotional roller coaster we call life. They have learned to pretend that they’ve been blessed because that’s what the winners do.

I think that I read, some years ago, of a US policeman who was against aa and had set up a group to that effect. Does anyone know what I am talking about?

Also, I would like to ask why there have been so few studies about the effectiveness, or not, of this cult?

Sorry folks my fingers slipped. Premature post.
It seems you want to change AA into a form of treatment you want. Ftg it is no surprise that AA would have more experiences with people suffering from depression. Many have yet to receive a diagnosis and medical attention, many have no insurance or simply don’t find it important yet.
AA helps more people without the means to acquire psychotherapy, lets just get honest here. Are we going to compare apples to apples or what.

AA helps more people without the means to acquire psychotherapy, lets just get honest here. Are we going to compare apples to apples or what.

Give proof then. Out with it.

hulahoop says

Petal, I am truly blown away by what you say about your community and the AA meetings there. Please do tell what city they are located in. I never had the opportunity to attend meetings like you describe.

I understand the zealotry. I don’t understand the idolatry. Perhaps you can explain it to me.

diablo,
Here we go again with another member attacking incognito using sarcasm and invalidating remarks.
Jeesh I thought you did not like this behavior when it was done to you.

Thank you all for your responses.
I am very curious and am definitely going to check in with my friends who use AA now and those whom it didn’t work for about their negative experiences in AA.
I want you all to know I respect and hear that you or people you know have all had hard and horrible experiences in AA. My sharing of my experience is not meant to invalidate what you are doing here.
I am not in AA or recovery. I just happen to be an old hippy kid who lost a few dozen(!!) of my people to hardcore addictions for many years and watched the ones who didn’t die all come back in one way or another(AA or not).
My people who are sober and attend AA most also have done therapy (through treatment or otherwise) and alternate healing modalities in conjunction with AA. I have never heard anyone say they were encouraged to only use AA but I will check.
I am 39 years old and I can think of, off the top of my head over a dozen people (between 27-60) whom I know who have 3 or more years sober and are in AA. I knew them all as drug addicts and alcoholics, too. There are another few people whom I have met randomly (friends of friends, in my yoga classes, in Buddhist groups etc) and befriended whom I later found out are in AA and they also have years under their belts.
I can only look at the people in my life to see and say that AA has helped.
Just to reiterate some of my friends also got sober without AA. Some friends also left AA because they don’t practice abstinence from all substances.
@hulahoop: I live in Vancouver, Canada.
I answered the relapse thing in my second post. And I think the ‘tools’ question as well.
I know so many people in AA! I just called my Dads wife to see what the fellowship means to her. She has never taken a cake and only done the steps part way through. She hasn’t had a sponsor in years. She has a friend in her program who has 29 years sober and she calls him her mentor. She says no one has ever given her a hard time about this. She is 7 years sober. She says god for her is Good Orderly Direction. She says she was on an AA web board but got turned off by the narrow-minded zeal of the people. In her group you can talk about other things besides alcoholism. She says anything too dogmatic wouldn’t work for her. She says she has come across more ‘fundamentalist’ AA-ers in groups when she went to Mexico. I read her some of the stuff on this board and she said that in meetings she attended over 7 years in B.C. in Nelson, the Gulf Islands, Vancouver and Victoria she had not had or heard of people having those experiences. Except for 13 stepping. She says everyone here emphasizes that this is not therapy and to get that help if you need it. Which, I repeat, is accessible and free to recovering addicts here.
Maybe the west coast AA scene is ok. I bet there are some bible-belt area (we have that in BC, too) meetings that would totally not work for the people I know. I dunno.
Thanks for letting me on here. I hope I have not offended anyone.
Be well.

Interesting post Petal. Could you please expound on the comment “except for the 13th stepping.”

Well he hasn’t been charged yet….. (Pun Intended) , but he was only 8 day from finishing his probation:

http://www.tmz.com/2010/10/26/charlie-sheen-drunk-naked-hotel-room-hospitalized-drunk-intoxicated/

Chances are he will have his probation violated and will end up in another posh rehab resort.

Oops – Didn’t look at the date. Seems like it is a familiar story though. Reminds me of a drunkalog, you know the story they tell over and over again, after they tell everyone they are powerless . I wonder if Dr Phil has a solution for this?

@sugomom: she said there was 13 stepping in her experience of AA but not the other stuff you guys have talked about. She said for her 13 stepping was people trying to pick people up. I told her I thought 13 stepping was trying to pick up someone who had less than a year of sobriety. She didn’t think that was it.
All right.
I spoke to my brother.
He says that in his AA circle they say the rooms are a good place to visit not a place to stay. At first rely on it and get your work done. Then, take what you need and get on with your life.
He says people are always encouraged to seek outside help if the rooms are not enough.
His take is he spent the first year and a half of his sobriety going to meetings every day. He says it was and is a big part of his sobriety. He says in our city there are 700 different meetings a day. He figures he went to 300 of them. Of which there are only 6 he now goes to 2-3X a week. He says that for him the rest of the meetings had lots of people who he couldn’t relate to or didn’t like, messages/directions not to his taste, lots of men and women looking to pick each other up. He says it is super hard in small towns where there are less options.
He says he only has three rock solid best friends that came out of the rooms. They would love him regardless wether he was in AA or not.
He says to remember its not Well Peoples Anonymous. Its Alcoholics Anonymous and there are a lot of sick people out there. Be selective.
I asked him if he felt there was lots of politicking and ego in the organizational side of it. He said for him, not at all. He said in his experience people are very committed to principles before personality.
I asked why he thinks AA fails people. He just said if you do your work diligently it won’t fail. Thats his experience.
I asked him if he would recommend it to people and he said yes.

Howler,
And don’t worry about diablo. He’s just a troll playing out his routine.

diablo,
Trust me, Petal is not worried about me. But you sure are.

mr. diablo: “5 peeps jump.” come on. youre on a blog fulla people who hate aa? why are you even on here? but what you said about the dood from the orange papers was funny. i mean, the orange papers are out there. but, i love the orange papers anyway. so there.

Petal,
Please tell your brother thanks. I also wanted to thank you for coming here and sharing. I have only been on here maybe 2-3 weeks, it’s tuff sometimes. I also know it is what I make it.
AA does work for many and does not work for many. I am learning the flip side of this coin here. I left AA after a long direct affiliation because I found that it was time to move on. I did not need to attend on a weekly bases and the message I was hearing from many meeting was a message of dependence on the people(members) and the meetings rather then asking people if they want to learn a set of principles that may help them change their lives.
I have always looked at AA like a surrogate voice that I needed to listen to. I found this voice through studying the BB and the steps. For various reasons in my younger years I failed to listen and assimilate the everyday life tools I needed to have to grow up. I was extremely embarrassed at the age of 27 when I realized how immature I was for my age. I had allowed drugs and alcohol to severely stunt my emotional/mental growth. Professionally I was a disaster, I had not even routimely balanced my checking account. I was not present intimately (not just sexually either) in any relationship nor knew how. My children were just a extension of me ect…..I had allowed drug and alcohol to set up shop in my life. Just about every decision I made was made about or because of drugs. This had gone on for over a decade, bad habits had taken hold, I had formed a personality based upon evading everyday life.
AA did not help with all of this obviously but what AA did do for me was give me the training ground to practice thoughts and actions. I would go to my counseling sessions and the various seminars/workshops I attended learn new ideas and uncover truths about myself and come back to my wonderful friends and share. It was great because they were on their journey too. Sometimes we would talk about our life lessons in the meeting (especially step meetings) most of the time after the meeting. The best part of AA for me was after the meeting when I gathered with friends and we talked. I mean really talked.
Because of all of this I became the husband I am today, father and Owner of a business.
I am so closer with my family, I have learned to let my family be. I don’t walk around with shame, I have nothing to feel guilty about. My life has changed and continues.
There are all kinds of people in AA, I knew who I wanted to gravitate to early on. Just like are towns we life in right now they are different types of folks. I have never suffered fools lightly. Including myself at one time.

Unfortunately the “famous status” that you are talking about is just media hype. The true innovator of change does not wish their cause to be attributed to them, they want the cause to be attributed to the cause, unlike Bill Wilson who profited from it. A true innovator of change does not attempt to manipulate people for themselves, they do it for the cause and nothing else.

Exactly what “trade” would that be?

I really got into it on a thread over at drugs.com. Some woman who is a counselor or some sort of treatment program employee was telling a current client of the St Jude Retreat (where I got sober and eventually taught) that the program was connected with scientology/narconon! I wrote way too much – but she distorted my words and refused to own up to the irresponsibility of her lies about st judes. I also found that some anti-scientology site is the source of the rumor, and tried to set them straight. For the record, if any of you have heard this – St Judes has absolutely no affiliation with narconon or scientology, and never has. Back in the 90′s, when narconon was like the only other non-12-step facility in operation, the people from st judes cited their research. Because of this, there are many people on the web claiming that they are connected. It’s pretty infuriating.
http://www.drugs.com/forum/need-talk/i-am-done-57686.html#post308670

I just went back to that thread, and my most recent post is gone and the thread is now locked – which is upsetting, because that woman severely misrepresented me, and now I can’t respond to it.

@diablo Thanks for applauding my convictions. I don’t know of any referral agreement, but I’d definitely be interested in what your friend has to say – either way, I’ll ask SJRH about it directly.

I’m curious though, what you mean by “I don’t know from looking at your blog if that would be a bad thing”. And to be clear, that’s not hostility on my part, just an honest question.

Not that I had to ask, but I did, and I just got it from the horse’s mouth – they have never had any sort of referral agreement with Narconon – never. And they have never referred a single person to Narconon.

These are people with whom I have deep personal ties, so I have no reason to expect them to lie to me about this.

@ Steven Slate I had to copy the page before it disappeared. That substance abuse “counselor” is clearly so brainwashed I found it difficult to tolerate reading the comments. I only hope the original poster stays put. It is a good thing the thread is closed though, so nobody can read the misinformation that “counselor” spouted. I just can’t understand why someone would think it’s somehow easier to consider addiction a behavior than consider it a lifelong disease. It’s sooo illogical

Sure but it’s 19 pages in word. I’ll send it in a msg.

Don’t know how.

I think I provided a bad link. This one works, and the thread shows:
http://www.drugs.com/forum/need-talk/i-am-done-57686.html

I had found this because I was too lazy to type Baldwin Research Institutes url, and I started typing there name into google, and “Baldwin Research INstitute Scientology” automatically came up. It looks like the source that several of the results point back to is an anti-scientology website called “Why We Protest” http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threads/baldwin-research-institute-a-scientology-fraud.29387/

Oh, also, I had signed my post at drugs.com as “Steven Slate – Author – The Clean Slate Addiction Site”. And I didn’t put a link, because it was my first post over there, and I didn’t want to seem like a spammer. Now they’ve edited my post to remove the name of my site!

@Steven Slate – beware of the evil AA manipulators. They a sociopaths who have found a path to ply their trade through belonging to AA. They will use any tricks possible to manipulate you and will ALWAYS ask for personal information to use against you.

@Steven Slate — He never seems to have a link to back up what he says. All he does is run around here, yapping and nipping at everybody’s heels like a chihuahua. Pay no attention to him.

JR, grow up and do your push ups in some other playground. Yeah, I notice you….OK.
Troll somebody else.

Here is a link to information about St. Jude Executive Retreat by the Baldwin Research Institute that clearly endorses NARCONON. The article also suggests that, ” psychological based treatment is ineffective in the treatment of alcohol and other drug problems.”

http://www.saintjudecountryretreat.com/addiction-treatment-22.php

My opinion is that these organizations are definitely affiliated with each other.

@steve, the guy has a problem with facts, it’s becoming well known.

Sorry Steve but the link G2K provided casts a shadow over your assertion that there is no connection between Narconon and St Judes. The 2 organisations seemed more closely affiliated than the innocent referencing of a solitary narconon study would suggest.

@Steven Slate…

Thank you for your comprehensive evaluation of St. Judes.

I’m not a conspiracy theorist… My own experience tells me that people who are seeking treatment for alcoholism need to be wary of those who would use double-talk and outright lies in order to recruit new members for various religious cults. Because of this I would caution anyone against involving themselves with any organization that endorses either AA or NARCONON in any way.

The argument as to whether or not alcoholism is a disease is irrelevant when considering whether or not someone should seek professional help or treatment. Every alcoholic is different… Some people need help from the medical establishment in order to recover or manage the underlying issues that may have led them to drink in the first place. Residential recovery programs that do not employ a medical staff are simply reckless and irresponsible institutions run by unqualified people who don’t know what they are doing.

@petal – Maybe the west coast AA scene is ok. I bet there are some bible-belt area (we have that in BC, too) meetings that would totally not work for the people I know. I dunno.
Thanks for letting me on here. I hope I have not offended anyone.
Be well.

No. Your post explains a lot. Especially about help being free for addicts in your country. It is free in the United States but you have to prove you are destitute and most likely they will send you to a twelve step based after care treatment. That goes on to include a twelve step based after treatment because they have had twenty-eight days to fertilize your mind with bullshit in order to prepare it for even more bullshit.

AA is considered real deal therapy in the United States. A lot of people (such as myself) went there thinking it was a support group only to find out it is something completely different. It is not real deal therapy either. There are no licensed mental help professionals there in the capacity of therapist. Nope. It is a lot of unqualified people speculating on how to give advice to others they have no business giving advice to. Also, odds are if you do seek real deal therapy, your therapist will be all about the twelve steps because it worked for them so it should work for you too. Or because they don’t know any better.

Thank you for coming back and taking your time to post to answer some of my questions in a positive light.

@Steven Slate…

I’ve read a bit of what you’ve written on your site. While it’s not exactly pithy, I agree with most of what you have to say… In fact I think it’s brilliant… the same goes for Baldwin.

We just happen to disagree on a few key points.

Further to the query about the piece on exposeaa called something like ‘What reason/science means to me in my daily life, does anyone know how hard it is to get a drug appoved? It is a glacial process. In the UK at least. And it is the side effects that stymie the drug. (Obviously I am thinking about the ‘side effects’ of AA, which are unrecorded). I don’t think that aspirin would get a license today because of the strictness about side effects. And if one is trying to get a new drug thru trial, one finds that the burden of proof is very much on one, not on detractors to prove my drug is wrong.

Violet,
read through your post. I got nada.
Sorry.

Steven,
But more importantly, anyone who is interested in St Judes, but has been concerned by the claims that it’s Narconon, can investigate what goes on at Narconon and then call St Judes to ask what goes on there – and then compare these two things, and realize that they are drastically different.

diablo,
I am from a web site (Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora) I am sure you are familiar with, W. was from this site.
If I may express a opinion on the above comments. Asking Narcanon or St.Judes employees about how successful their program works is not very prudent I would think. I would think bias would play a role.
Do ex-clients have a facebook site up and running, are their blogs or sites that clients have created concerning St’Judes and their treatment methods. Positive and negative, I’m sure not everyone had a great experience.
Thanks

HH,

Seriously, you don’t know me. And very seriously, you need to stop. I did not use “incognito sarcasm and invalidating remarks.” That is your opinion. Feel free to express it. But don’t be surprised when I call you on it. Let’s see, so far you have called me greedy, tried to invalidate my experience on AA based on my brief time spent there and backpeddled when I called you on it. And then try to tell me about non prayer based meetings. And also questioned my belief that AA is a religious program.

diablo
I don’t have to know you, to comprehend a post you write. Sorry you have a problem with my comments concerning your posts.
HH, I have not back petal on anything I written here, you have me confused.

fool or not, I’m having an easy time seeing through your charade. I suppose every site needs its trolls. Oh well.

@diablo, I resort to mocking when I feel a person is not being honest about their motives. I see you as such a person. I have to question why you’re really here in the first place. Anyone with a moderate level of reading comprehension and basic logic can quickly see how disingenuous your posts and train of thought are. As another poster wrote yesterday it’s almost like multiple people are sharing your handle. Either that or you are one of the most bi-polar people I have ever encountered.

BTW, it’s cute the way you answer reasoned responses to your posts with phrases like “not smellin’ what you’re cooking”, “got nada out of your post”, etc. You know exactly what we are saying. A third grader could understand the substance of most posts here. Cut the BS and kindly go haunt some other site.

Mike,
Why is it that you can not see yourself in any of this. If a third grader can comprehend then this should be a walk in the park for you.
I’ll try in help.
I am on the fence basically concerning AA, I don’t have a problem with the literature as written and what I believe it meant. What I do have a problem with is the people in AA (majority) and the influence of treatment centers.
Being bi-polar/schizophrenic why not. I have been everything else, I’ll try this on. Actually it wouldn’t be so bad on some days to slip into another personality.
Thing you need to remember is, since I am on the fence on certain hot topic issues here, the feedback I get is multiple. Little different then you. So when it is sarcastic and name calling x 6 I get a little offended.

When I say I got “nada” I mean I got nothing. Some posters here are responding with emotional rants. I don’t care to read most of them.

Last but not least pal, you have questioned my integrity (due to your confusion) to many times. I no longer am interested in hearing about your concerns anymore.

How about parity, equal standing. Do we have to fight over who is going to get the remote.

Diablo, You may want to try this website to be with fellow hardcores:
http://mcgowdog.blogspot.com/
Rotten Ralph or Ralph Rotten is over there. They may be more to your taste. They also believe in the sanctity of early AA mythology-er-history.

I have never met a 100% by the Big Book person – Danny S included. Those self-appointed protectors-of-the-faith pick and choose with the same bias as any Orangeophile. Some will swear by the first 164pp but dismiss the stories. “Back to Basics” groups as a rule won’t even look at “To the Employers.”

A “return tn the origins” movement is typical of any “spiritual” community that has lost its way – and 70 – 100 years out was when both Buddhists and Christians both thought, “Hey, maybe we should write some of this stuff down before we forget what it means.”

AA was constructed to be amorphous, unorganized, and constantly evolving out of any limiting definitions. It will survive and outlast treatment centers, sites like this, and its own myopic stupidity. But in what form? Your guess is almost as good as mine.

Guys I am very comfortable right here. In time as we plow through diablo this and diablo that, my existence for being here will have proved itself. I do belong here I read the preamble and enough of ftg comments to know this is true.
My only difference is the literature and how I interpret the message the first 100 including Bill and Bob wrote.
What I will try very hard not to do is respond to insults and engage in stupid arguments.
I have noticed one thing here more then others the dogma. Ftg says something (expresses a opinion) and out come the so called minions saying the exact same thing. Guys this is scary. I mean shit can’t you at least put a different slant on the opinion.
I do not follow, short step or go all in on anything. I am very leery about any organization including AA. You folks are a bit over the top.
I am not a Big Book thump-er, a big ra ra guy never sponsored many people. Had a family and a business that took most of my time. My wife has never been involved in AA or Alanon, she came once for my first year chip (btw the only chip I ever picked up). I never brought my family around AA. I found them to be very intrusive and out of step with boundaries. Unsolicited advice is common and making over-dramatic comments is another.

Hey y’all, stop trying to figure me out. I am not your science project. Go about your business, I will do the same. Try to judge me by my content not by your ill conceived assumptions.

friendthegirl says
I can get behind that. Some people want to be God’s chosen and some people want to be “real alcoholics” — that’s fine with me. Just keep it out of public policy.

Diablo says,
interesting statement.
No body wants to be a real alcoholic, at least this has been my experience. It is what it is.
Making this public policy can border on arrogance if you were to ask me.

HH says,
What is your purpose here? My purpose is to at least get one person to see AA for what it really is. To alert the the possible newcomer to the dangers of AA and to let them know it is not the simple little support group it represents itself to be.

diablo says,
well this is noble and I mean that. Just leave your personal emotions which tend to blind your “purpose”, out of it.
HH, if you don’t respond to me that will be fine. If nobody responded to me that would be fine. I have plenty of friends I’ll survive.

Not me justifying why I am against bizarre rubbish in all forms.

ftg says,
I haven’t been reading all your comments or these discussions very closely (I just can’t follow the arguments lately), but by now I’ve gotten the gist. I wonder if you were aware that you’re not alone in your quest. There are plenty of By the Big Book types — AA purists, or “back to basics” people out there. I was reading on Friends of Bill (I can’t find the post now) about how these guys are organizing and sweeping through AA groups and recruiting their newcomers.

diablo,
I would not say I am by the BB type. Like I totally lock step with the message. I am not a member of AA anymore nor choose to ever be again. Even if AA went back to only 100 members I would not be the 101st.
All I am saying is AA when written and presented to the small number of people became a simple unsophisticated roadmap for people struggling to stop drinking. Was this supposed to be the only way “I” don’t think so, is it scientific, No. Can it be improved, Why?? Don’t like it don’t do it.
Form your own brand of program to help people with drug problems.
I don’t like how AA is being used today, it is a reward and punishment model. This is bs.
I always enjoyed the smaller meeting that focused on just talking, getting stuff off your chest, Trying to find simple answers to help myself.

Thanks for the reply, ftg.

i have heard many fire walk stories like this one. the only successful fire walk i have ever seen happen when pam did it on the office and was able to tell jim she still liked him. seriously though, WHY would anyone want to walk a fire any way?

question–off topic–ST. JUDES… i got there b/c there has been discussions about this retreat and one of their workers (right?) comments here and also has a smart blog. (clean slate) he has an open fb page, i think. anyway… i worry it is a scam? but clean slate does seem real, cool, and smart (other than i think maybe supporting the tea party, um yikes, right?)

thoughts?

they have research that i agree with on the site, but then, the researchers seem to work for st. judes. so confust!

Jesus Christ diablo!

Would you just fuckin’ go away?

“when i say nada it means i got nothing.” really? thank you for letting us know. i was really confust before. emotional rant to complete clarity.

ftg,
Y’all……naw I would not throw me in that group. What you just described is sick and to be honest I have never seen this aspect of AA and glad I have not. Will I argue that people have said these things, nope. Because it would not surprise me at all.

I decided to look at the Friends of Bill website that diablo mentioned. Very interesting……. A post on the front of the blog from January 29th was from a 32 year veteran of AA who finally came to the realization of what he had joined. After 32 years of going to rooms he realizes he has been wearing a mask and hates himself. The 12 Steps sure seem to have worked.

http://www.friendsofbill.net/profiles/blogs/tell-the-truth-after-32-years

They also have a post called “Open Discussion or are they just Open Disgusting meetings?”

http://www.friendsofbill.net/forum/topics/open-discussion-or-are-they?xg_source=activity

This site seems to give many of the examples of the good and bad of AA, with a pro-AA feeling and tendency with many quotes from the BB. I didn’t see any posts from diablo there, even though he reads that blog. .

diablo says,
“I always enjoyed the smaller meeting that focused on just talking, getting stuff off your chest, Trying to find simple answers to help myself.”

friendthegirl says
Why should that type of meeting be called AA?

diablo says,
Idk, because in this particular circumstance the meeting was started by a AA member, he brought a BB and other literature and called it a AA meeting. Now I am also confident we could call this meeting anything we wanted to. I see what you mean.

diablo says,
Also, I just noticed this: I have noticed one thing here more then others the dogma. Ftg says something (expresses a opinion) and out come the so called minions saying the exact same thing. Guys this is scary. I mean shit can’t you at least put a different slant on the opinion.

friendthegirl says
I would like to be directed to examples of this phenomenon. I’d also be interested to hear what the dogma is.

diablo says,
couple of definitions of dogma;

1. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.

You have to agree that their is a political doctrine here, a particular principle or position advocated. Right?? Your avocation creates the dogma. Does this make sense??

2. a settled or established opinion or belief.

I don’t believe I have to explain this one.

Ftg, dogma is not necessarily a negative word it is like the word ignorance. It depends upon the use of the word and in what context it was used.

This morning I went to a meeting on the first tradition that lapsed quickly into that self-indulgent land where the beginner is the most important person in the room and AA members love each other unconditionally….etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. My contribution began,mockingly, ‘Now that we have congratulated ourselves on being the most enlightened group in the history of the planet, let’s talk about the people who come to AA looking for help but, who through no fault of thier own, do not receive it.”

It took only a minute or two of pointing towards the overlooked, the disenfranchised, the marginalized alcoholic who sits on the sideline in AA wanting to be part of a group that is too busy celebrating birthdays and hanging out with the cool kids to even acknowledge their existence, to turn the meeting around to a frank discussion of how AA can do better.

Perhaps it is hubris on my part to believe that the reason they listen to my relentless critique is because they know that I love them.

And remember my “Top Ten Things that I Learned from my Relapse”? For the first time in five years not a single person walked out on my lead. The consensus – as relayed to me over the last couple of weeks: what they saw that night was a person comfortable in their skin, playfully engaging the Program & Fellowship, and fearless about their sobriety. And just being that person opened them up to ideas that they might never have even listened to had I approached them with an agenda.

Although I emphatically applaud what you are doing on this site, I respectfully submit for your consideration the power of engaging “the enemy’ in their world, on their terms.

@Mr. AA…

I tried that… I was told that you don’t go into someone else’s house and piss on the carpet.

I was also surrounded by a group of angry men and mocked at every turn.
I wouldn’t advise anyone to try to change AA from within. I think it’s just a dangerous thing to do. I know that some of the folks who post here are still on the fence. My advice to them is to leave AA… Erase all AA contacts from your phone… Don’t accept phone calls from them… Cut off all contact and move on. This doesn’t mean that you should erase the abuse you’ve been through from your mind. There is no magic delete button. The best way to challenge all of that AA bullshit is probably with a group of like-minded people who’ve found their way out of AA. That’s what this site is all about… When we’re not busy fending off trolls that is.

@Mr. AA…

I simply stated my opinion. No one is disrespecting you.

Mr. AA: I will leave engaging them, on their terms, to you and others who have the intestinal fortitude to do so. And–no kidding–I respect you for it. For myself, though, I’ve chosen to work towards raising awareness, acceptance and availability of recovery pathways other than AA.

Repeating the question, which is not rhetorical: What reason is there to believe that AA, and people in AA, have the wit and the wisdom to help the ‘suffering alocholic’ ?
What are the words and the deeds that produce results?
What, precisely, do the 12 step do?
What, precisely, does a sponsor do?
What, precisely, does a meeting accomplish?

This is not a laughing matter; this is not an empty academic exercise. People go to AA in a vulnerable state; disordered, disturbed, worried, afraid. Who, exactly is there in AA to help them?

I do not like games.

Mr AA: I am sure that people who have been hurt by AA will appreciate your kind words, however condescending they, in fact, are. Too funny

Assuming that AA actually helps anyone… How does it work?

I’m not asking for details about the 12 step process… I know about that already. What I’m looking for is the mechanism that links the problem (alcoholism) to the desired outcome (sobriety)… The missing link if you will.

When an AA members commit to carrying the message, or helping the sick and suffering they are basically appointing themselves ambassadors of the will of God. First one must assume that carrying the message is God’s will… Second they must believe that it is God’s will that they share the message with other alcoholics… But where is the healing I’ve heard so much about? How does it happen that carrying such a religious message will remove the desire to run away from life and drink?

@tintop

Since I include myself among those who have been hurt by AA, what is so funny and condescending about explaining the tripartite healing process by which I moved beyond the injury that I felt?

since alcoholism is not a disease, why would I need to be a medical professional?

The answer to that is you don’t need to be a medical professional.

I think what @Gunthar was referring to when being a qualified medical professional is in the sense of psychology. In the US, the licensing and censure of medical professionals is determined by each individual state. I think practicing psychology without a proper license should be dealt with harshly. AA unfortunately has many members who are sociopaths that practice psychology with devastating results. They use the loop hole that they are not professional because they do not get paid for it with money, and it is a self help group. They also use a loophole by making them admit they are a Alcoholic in front of everyone, so if they mess up they can blame it on Alcoholism and it was not their fault.

If a loved one went to a psychologist for help and that psychologist obviously gave the wrong type of treatment to them and it resulted in their death, I think anyone would want make sure that society is rid of them.

What is really needed, is for people who practice psychology using these loopholes, to be identified and legally punished for the damage they do. If more people who have been misled by sponsors to leave their family, their jobs, their mind at the door, complain and actually sue in Civil court the perpetrators of these deeds will be put under check.

@JR Harris…

It happens all the time. Unfortunately, there are no discernible boundaries between just offering advice and pretending to be a social worker… I guess the only difference is that one of them gets paid.

Mr AA —
You have no evidence. And, you know that you have no evidence

Szasz made a tremendous mistake.

Ftg says,
I didn’t ask for the definition of dogma, I asked for the dogma here. I agree that we are a community of like-minded people. It happens a lot that people with similar ideas and experiences get together, build community, and talk about and explore their shared ideas.

diablo,
This like-mindedness brings about the dogma (or can be the dogma). I did not mean this as a slap just a reminder that AA does not hold the “corner market” on dogma here.

Gunthar,
I understand that you struggle heartily when it comes to conversations that question your wisdom but try, really try to press on. You are not helping yourself by continuing to indulge your shallow understanding of others opinions.

You are exactly the type of personality I disliked in AA, your condescending and think you know everything. When in actuality if you could read your posts with unbiased clarity you would see your weaknesses.

Dude your not “as in the know” as you think you are. Nor do I feel any compelling need to explain myself to you until you correct your demanding attitude.
Actually I find you to be very funny with your demands.

Hey try this, take your lazy unstimulated butt over to the forums, read what I have posted then formulate some questions and come back and present them.
How about that, it would be called a grown up conversation/debate.
I’ll wait to hear from you.

I’m not interested in reading all of that stuff you’ve cut and pasted over at the forum.
I’ve read a few of your posts… quite a few… and I’m pretty sure that you are fuckin’ bat shit crazy. You’ve become nothing more than a pain in the ass, and I can’t wait for someone to ban your ass.

How dare you say the things you say to the people on this blog???!!!

You are just an angry person with a serious mood problem.

C&E… You’ve got mail.

How dare you say the things you say to the people on this blog???!!!

Like I have said maybe one day you will stop blaming me and others for your inability to have a rational conversation without being a bully.
How dare I say things to people like yourself, how dare you judge me and bust my balls since the first day I got here.
Gunthar what universe do you come from, must be a self centered one.
WoW, you and Cause definitely have your routine down.

Good night….will talk again sometime. Oh, I am still waiting for the questions from my forum.
Thanks

@causeandeffect – Good job at explaining what happened to you from my post. You would not have annoyed me, you were very clear and concise on what points you were trying to bring about.

I believe the scenario I described, and the scenario you described are common place in the rooms of AA. There are people trying to build an elite presentation of themselves in AA, at the expense of the new comers. All they want is another notch on their belt to prove themselves one of the all seeing elite. I am sure that anyone who has been to an AA meeting or event (picnic, dinner, etc… ) has met them. They are the ones that probe you, until they find out enough personal information about you. They then get that Cheshire cat maniacal grin on their face, that they know more than you, because they have become one of the elite.

I have only my experiences, and the experiences of people who write about what happened to them to come up with my conclusions. I remember that my wife’s sponsor wanted her family at the meeting where she gave her first share to show support. Is this common place, or just a one off manipulation. I do not see where having family members at a meeting like this helped with my wife’s sobriety. I do remember the big smile that her sponsor had when my wife was talking. I can still see her face today, and it is scary.

No I am not playing any games with you and I am tired of being excused of games because I will not answer the question exactly the way you want me too.
Here is your problem as I see it ftg, you state you want other opinions and thoughts but you really don’t, you just want other thoughts you can easily change through your persuasive intellect. I will not answer questions here they way y’all want me to. My answer to dogmatic comments that abound here was very clear.
This who me crap is in your head don’t project it on me, please. I find a lot of you do this, projecting. This is once again my reason for saying dogma abounds here. Most of you here have pre programed answers to everything some one says that does not exactly have your opinion. I saw it with Mr. AA, blast him with questions that are impossible to really answer and if he doesn’t answer they way you want he is criticized. Well he just decided he wasn’t going to play. Second you have some people posting here that clearly have no experience with AA as a alcoholic and go on ad nausea pummeling people with questions and stories you know they are regurgitating from others posts.
Dogma once again.
Hey I am OK with all of this, I’ve been around long enough on sites debating that this has not exasperated me yet. I am frustrated. I have not seen such a closed minded blog in a long time. Guys your not all right and every one else is stupid, blind, helpless and is just waiting to get your help. AA clearly does not have all the answers and in a lot of cases does not have any answers.
AA has a enormous amount of people who come to AA meetings realize it is not for them and leave. There not leaving pissed, outraged, or disappointed there just leaving because AA was not for them. It has been my experience that a large amount of people have left this way.
Ftg I don’t have this savvy intelligence nor can I articulate as well as you in the form of writing. I do my best to get my point across. instead of accusing me of gaslighting, why don’t you try again with another question. i think sometimes you folks give me more credit for intelligence/comprehesion then I deserve. Really!!!!!! ADDHD…my processing has void spots.

So who is going to win the Superbowl this year? …. I’m a Steelers fan. They are the odds on favorite this year. I think I’m going with them. They don’t have a 5% success rate. I wouldn’t root for a team that did.

But back to football…… Using Vegas Odds, would you back a team that had a turn over rate of 95% a year? Would you back a team that had a core team of 5% and they had all been on the team for many years? Even if one of the 5% that is left is a great quarterback, he still has to eventually pass the ball to one of the new 95%. What are the chances that the newbie will fumble? Would you bet on this team? Of course they could always say that the 95% they hired weren’t really football players. Even with this excuse, would you bet money on them winning the Superbowl?

Of course if we are using that as an analogy to AA……

I’m sure an active group in a metropolitan area will have at least a 100 new members a year. That tells me that 95 people out of the newbies you meet are in for disaster. It still doesn’t seem like a very good success rate to me. Unless their core teaching tools are flawed and untrue. Would you trust someone using flawed and untrue teaching teaching tools with your life and your family? I guess they could just say that the 95% that left weren’t really Alcoholics and do not count.

Diablo, your error is to plea for reasoned responses that are full of paranoia and hate and little asides about what bad thing happened to the cousin of a friend’s barber who, in their sickness perceived people trying to help as overstepping normal civil boundries.

It’s understandable that when people are confused, looking for answers and someone in AA hurts their tender feelings by telling them the truth, or suggesting they bathe, that they stomp off and forever after believe what their heads tell them about AA, perceptions formed when they were at one of the sickest points in their lives.

What is hard to fathom is how that sick and mistaken view can afterwards be used to base a purpose in life upon for years to come.

The underlying idea is they will be ok if they can close down AA. If only they can fold every meeting in the world they will not feel the way they do, and will finally be alright.

You should see the ones who have been at this for 20 years…they become warped into something very odd. Every bad thing in their lives is the fault of AA. Every missed opportunity, every medical problem, their inability to get along socially, or function normally is not their fault at all. It’s all the fault of an organization that doesn’t know they exist, don’t care what they think, and continues to help people get terrific lives while they experience their problems ongoing.

When an organization is responsible for such wrongness and continues to wound them so deeply, what else can you expect?

rats..’not full of…’and ‘doesn’t care’. Sorry guys, I’ll start reading these through before posting them.

thanks. and shunning, the evil sibling of lovebombing.

@ftg, following up on an earlier observation you made about diablo….’gaslighting’ is the right term for what he’s doing. The guy’s a dyed in the wool steppist, it’s becoming more apparent.

THx G2K. I hope that the fact that we are going to look at the sites that you have posted will count for more than a random google. iyswim. I am currently being told that al-anon is ‘not as bad’ as aa. (GT2k, have you looked at eddy’s post re Times of India?) Thanks all.

Mr. AA: The links are posted in the comments to this blog entry:

http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/01/10/aas-own-stats-show-slow-demise/

I agree that there is nothing on the order of a law of nature that prevents AA from changing. Theoretically, yes, it can change. Practically, I don’t see it happening. It would require a wholesale rewrite of the literature and a complete change in group culture. Good luck with it though; I think what you are doing is good. The fewer people who are abused and hurt in the name of recovery, the better.

I understand that, mike.
Hostile fatuity is more interesting than condescending fatuity.

One day it will be recognized that “Mr AA” is merely another troll. Condescending and fatuous; but, a mere troll nonetheless.

mr AA’s experience with AA has very little to do with the issues at hand.

@Mike, Oh those wonderful threats of violence from these ever so spiritual people over the intertubes. I remember when Tony J implied violence against you on Dombeck’s blog. What was he going to do? Beat you with an electron? Speaking of Tony J, it still seems so striking to me the way JD and him think and write. Maybe they are different. If they are different then it just goes to show the cultish nature of AA.

@Mike – I hear ya. The one person I actually know who did AA in the early 80s doesn’t want to hear about what it’s like now. He still clings (a little childishly, IMO) to his AA experience as a great time in his life and can’t believe that anyone could be hurt by it, or that it has some very strong cultish tendencies. He actually winces if I say anything against it. This person is very dear to me, and I don’t want to disturb his equilibrium. But I certainly can’t trust his instincts on AA.

@tintop – Yep. There’s theoretical interest in talking about what AA might have been or could be. But that stuff is mainly relevant for highlighting what AA really is and really does right now. If someone brings up the past to distract attention from the present, then that’s a sign of dishonesty.

@Mr AA who says ~ “…The key word is “requires.” No one is required to read the Big Book, call their sponsor, work the steps, follow the traditions, or do anything else.”

For now I’m going to go with willfully obtuse and reserve judgment on prevarication, but mind you I am a very thorough reader.

Mike the true realm of the spirit has been devastating to them. They can’t control the literature like they did before. It is too bad for them that they can’t outlaw the free flowing of information.

@howler, very well put. @bf, ain’t the internet and the first amendment grand?

@JRWhen you cut and paste what other people are saying into your posts, it becomes hard to differentiate what you are saying and they are saying. It is kind of like when people do the 12 Steps, when they repeat them are they saying them, or are they just repeating something someone else said? Be careful repeating what other people write, if you do it long enough it will become part of your though process. Kind of like when you got in trouble at school and the teacher makes you write something on the board 1000 times. They do it to brainwash you in to a behavior that they feel is appropriate.

The reason I do it is to help me remember what I am posting about without having to go back to find the original post. I realize some people find it annoying. I am truly sorry for that. It is difficult for me to remain focused on what I am writing about by using memory only. I guess I could delete the quote out of my post when I am finished responding, but then I probably wouldn’t remember what I was referring to unless I sift through the other posts. For me quoting is a reference tool that helps me to stay focused and hopefully not drift too far off track.

It also helps me when people do it. Otherwise I have to go back and search posts to see what it is being referred to. Sometimes I will read a post and wonder what the author is referring to. Sometimes there are so many comments that I cannot remember everything that has been said so far.

I like the way that AA claims nothing is required in AA. But is that the real truth? While it may not be required, it is very frowned upon if you do not follow all of the “suggestions” perfectly. You are demeaned by the group as a whole and become a “YET” if you do not follow the program. AA is full of contradictions on this. You can not ” take what you want and leave the rest”. If you do you are considered in denial and an labeled as “Unfortunate” and “incapable of being honest with themselves”. Sounds like a catch 22 to me. It also sounds like a very deceptive program…

“Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. ”

Source: Chapter 5 Big Book.

Mr. AA, Things must have really changed between the late 70s and the early 80s, because I can assure the word “disease” was mentioned at every meeting I ever attended. And apparently the AA GSO and AAWS didn’t know you all thought alcoholism wasn’t a disease or it wouldn’t have voted to publish “Is AA for You?” in 1973.

Take a look at the first paragraph in which AA itself referers to the “disease of alcoholism” in the pamphlet on the AA website -

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=71

And if you think that citation of “disease’ in conference-approved literature is anecdota (which one could say was exactly the basis of your argument)l, AA has provided you a search engine on the site so that you can see how many times “disease” is used in conference-approved literature.

@hulahoop – Sorry, I wasn’t referring to you about quoting posts. I was just trying to make a point because someone said, I said, they said something. (You know, the usual he said, she said, we said, you said run around) The fact was they did say it (or at least repeated it) when they quoted someone else (Mere semantics and I misunderstood who actually said it ). No offense to anyone, I understand that posts have to be cut and pasted to answer a specific question. I was mainly trying to put an end to the endless he said, she said, we said, you said run around for a while. It was getting confusing.

Will someone please take the time to explain step eleven to me?
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

hulahoop, that’s one of the really big problems I had early on. I have always considered people who think they know what gawd’s will is are delusional at best, and downright dangerous at worst.

@cause – hulahoop, that’s one of the really big problems I had early on. I have always considered people who think they know what gawd’s will is are delusional at best, and downright dangerous at worst.

Someone (I think possibly FTG) posted something about it on another thread. I’ve been thinking about it but it is a little fuzzy to me now. I wish I could find it. It had to do with praying to a higher power. This step requires you to pray (or meditate) to God.

How does someone know the difference between God’s will, their personal will, and the will of the group?

I think the “difference between God’s will, their personal will, and the will of the group”, comes down to who you think your higher power is. In AA you are supposed to be able to pick your higher power. It just has to be the correct one per AA doctrine. I think they are trying to order it like this:

1. Personal Will
2. Will of the Group.
3. Gods will.

Well AA indoctrination takes “Personal Will” right out of the picture. You have to do this or you are shunned because you are in denial. This leaves the “Will of the Group” and “Gods Will”. They appear to try and make them one in the same, or at least blur the line between the two. I would say they are most definitely a Religious group of extremists, who’s teachings try to lead everyone to believe that they speak for God. They try and claim that you can pick any higher power you want, but in reality this is false, and they force the Will of God on you as the group see’s it. This effectively makes the Groups Will the same as Gods Will.

@Mr AA who says ~ “…My “motive” in telling people that no one is required to do anything in AA is not to spread the idea that AA is open and tolerant, as clearly it is not. My “motive” in telling people that no one is required to do anything in AA is to open a path through all the close-minded intolerance.”

Ah yes, by all means, a single post on a tiny blog enjoining suffering, confused, detoxing and depressed people (some of who are also mentally ill) to somehow navigate a gauntlet of manipulative, intolerant and flat-out crazy people and somehow hold their own and make sophisticated and iconoclastic decisions while simultaneously being told to “take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth,” get a sponsor (teen drug programs, social workers and parole officers ALL require this) etc. etc on up to actually using the group as a deity.

That’s a great plan.

Should we make posters or little pamphlets for the hundreds of thousands (over the years millions) of depressed people who drank too much after a death in their family, confussed teens (children!), sexual assualt victims under post-traumatic strees, working people trying to hold onto their jobs, parents under the thumb of the Department of Social Services trying desperately to hold onto their children, people at risk of being deselected for organ transplants, battered wives and vulnerable veterans (people to whom we as a society owe so much more than this tripe) to fight this complicated fraught battle for you in lieu of getting actual treatment for their actual problems?

Excellent, where do I sign up. Raise high the roof beams carpenters, we are having trouble fitting some of these giant heads under our inclusive ceiling here.

You will have to forgive me, but I have seen this argument many, many times. I was myself for many years a member of the fringe or more tolerant wing of AA until I finally got it through my head that it was an exercise in complete stupidity.

@hulahoop ~ there is absolutely nothing wrong with quoting other posters when you respond to them; in fact it makes the conversation much more comprehensible. There is nothing wrong with your net etiquette. There is no need for you to apologize. I might even go so far as to suggest that the humility that you keep demonstrating by denigrating your perfectly sound reasoning and communication skills might be in part a manifestation of residual damage that 12-stepping may have done to your self-image. Fuck that!

As to this question of yours “…How does someone know the difference between God’s will, their personal will, and the will of the group?”

Wilson had a simple answer to that; just treat the group itself as God Problem solved.

G.O.D. = Group Of Drunks, ever heard that one? While that is absolutely, positively one of the single most offensive ideas that I have ever encountered in my life, it is a pillar of AA religious indoctrination.

AA was a cult from the very beginning. The idea that AA was once this wonderful organization and was suddenly infiltrated by recovery industry Trojan horses is just bullshit. The history is there for everyone to see. AA has lobbied congress and actively recruited from prisons and hospitals since AA’s inception. AA commitments at prisons and hospitals are nothing new. There is no new AA… period. Alcoholics Anonymous was engineered to be a cult from the very beginning… and a brilliantly organized self perpetuating mind trap is the result.

People who come in here and squawk about how you can take what you need and leave the rest, or how there is a good old boys network within AA if you just take the time to look for it are just hardcore AA zealots doing there best to try to save a few newcomers from what they perceive as the Stinkin’ Thinkin’ beast. They are the worst kind of liars you can find in AA. They smile in your face while they put you in your place. They have the same hidden agenda that every other AA shit-maggot has… to recruit new members for their religious cult.

@Lucy… I couldn’t have said it better myself.

JRH: joining a gym does not have the same pay off as being part of a cult. I think this is why aa will not survive once Dorothy has looked behind the curtain. People in this cult think that they are very special people (not ‘normies’!).

Mike says
@ftg, following up on an earlier observation you made about diablo….’gaslighting’ is the right term for what he’s doing. The guy’s a dyed in the wool steppist, it’s becoming more apparent.

diablo,
Boy, that makes it very easy for everyone around here. Your brain doesn’t have to hurt anymore. Diablo is a Stepper.
Here is a concept, let me tell you what I am.
I would not call me anything other then a person who went to AA for a little over two decades then made a decision to move on due to philosophical differences.
AA probably is changing and I don’t think it will be for the better. I personally would like to see AA become small again maybe then it could help the alcoholic it was meant to help.

Mr AA says

When I came into AA in the late 70′s – just before the explosion in treatment centers – the group culture in AA where I attended was entirely different. Almost no one believed that alcoholism was literally a disease, using the idea instead as a pragmatic metaphor. Relapse was not so common once a decent stretch of sober days were strung together. The influx of treatment center graduates changed all that.

So a partial change has already occurred, and it happened before anyone in AA realized what was going on. Another Trojan horse could accomplish something similar. For a conscious change, however, when a group culture is organized around a central belief rooted in a shared experience, the culture changes only when new shared experiences create an alternative central belief.

But it all depends on how people interpret their experiences. Bill Wilson interpreted his white-light vision in terms of a simplistic powerlessness – power – empowerment ideaology that resonated with what he already believed. I had a similar white-light experience but interpreted it differently: my “Program” is rooted in self-knowledge, not dependence on a higher power.

So if anyone wants to call AA a religion – and I have no problem with that – let us take it even further and hold out the possibility of a “New Testament” (No offence to Christians) for AA that finishes the work the Bill Wilson left undone, and even corrects some of the mistakes in the literature. Stranger things have happened.

diablo,
Thank you very much for your clear concise personal testament. You articulated what I have wanted to say but could not.
AA has evolved and it works and doesn’t work. We shall see how this will play out.

Once again thanks

Diablo, the Orange Papers are the most extensive, well researched and best documented resource about AA anywhere. AA is a cult. Peele agrees that it fits many definitions that describe a cult. The main thing about Peele is that he believes that AA has it all wrong fro the start and that they do a lot of harm.

Stanton Peele
Stanton Peele

addiction expert, psychologist, raconteur
Posted: July 1, 2010 10:20 AM
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Building on an essay in Wired magazine by Brendan Koerner, New York Times conservative columnist David Brooks lauds to the sky AA and its founder, Bill Wilson. Both Brooks and Koerner point out the worldwide spread of AA (although it is limited mainly to the U.S. and like-minded countries), and the spread of the 12 steps to nearly all areas of behavior change, indeed, to how we approach social problems of all sorts.

Along the way, Brooks makes the good points that there is no scientific way to program behavior change — that it is indefinite and rooted in individual choice. He points out the benefits of the social networks AA provides its members, and the decentralization of the AA movement, so that individual chapters are able to organize as its own members see fit. These are strong organization and psychological pluses.

But, unfortunately for a rational conservative, Brooks misses a few downsides to the AA movement.

1. The view AA conveys of alcohol and alcoholism is associated with abstinence-binge tendencies that already dominate America and other temperance nations. AA’s approach is completely abstinence oriented. In fact, temperance cultures like America, which are highly suspicious and fearful of alcohol, are characterized by many individuals who restrict their drinking, but then go on benders. Similar Northern European cultures, for example, have several times the death rates due to alcohol of Southern European countries, because the former tend to monumental binges (think Ireland, England, Finland) while in the Southern countries, people drink alcohol causally with meals (think Italy, Spain, Greece, France). All indications are that the latter is much healthier. More particularly, the majority of AA members fall off the wagon. When they do so, they very often return to drinking without restraint.

Brooks, a great trend-spotter, has missed the worldwide movement — including in the United States — towards harm reduction. Harm reduction has an opposite approach to substance use and addiction from the 12 steps. It assumes many people will fail to achieve abstinence, and instead works in every possible way to curtail the problems associated with use: infections (through needle exchange), eliminating accidents (through safe driver programs), healthier use (through cutting back drinking, providing shelter, food and medical care for alcoholics and addicts, and, in the drug area, using safe injection methods or substitutes for injectibles).

Just as Brooks and Koerner were announcing their discovery that AA is great, the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism was announcing that “alcoholism isn’t what it used to be,” that most people cut back alcoholic drinking without going to treatment — that is, that most of the benefits of self-improvement occur outside the walls of AA for people who specifically violate the fundamental principles of AA. Brooks rejects science in this area: i.e., the idea “that we will someday find a scientific method that will allow us to predict behavior and design reliable social programs.” But let’s not reject science that tells us how the majority of people actually behave. That’s ignorance.

2. Sorry, AA doesn’t work. The goal of AA and comparable methods is to get people sober (which does NOT, outside of AA, mean total abstinence for everyone). But, according to Koerner: “Wilson’s success is even more impressive when you consider that AA and its steps have become ubiquitous despite the fact that no one is quite sure how — or, for that matter, how well — they work.” In other words, Wilson’s and AA’s triumph has been in marketing, not therapeutics.

In other areas, Brooks is not so quick to jump on the bandwagon of approaches that aren’t proven to be successful. Given that AA started in 1935, that it is still not proven to be successful is beginning to be a bit worrisome. Do drinking and drug problems, alcoholism and addiction, seem to be improving in the United States? (Hint: according to the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, 25 percent of 21-year-old Americans have a diagnosable drug or alcohol problem — far and away most often an alcohol problem.) Don’t you think we might be doing a little better in this area after 75 years?

3. American AA is coercive. Brooks wisely notes, in acknowledging that AA doesn’t work particularly well, “There is no single program that successfully transforms most people most of the time.” But virtually everyone who ends up in AA in the United States is sent (forced) to attend AA or comparable programs — for example through drug courts, or even municipal traffic courts after a DUI. Why does this occur? Because the AA movement is spearheaded by true believers who believe what was good for them is good for everyone, as Brooks himself hints: “There are millions of people who fervently believed that its 12-step process saved their lives.” Naturally, these people are inclined to “recommend” that others follow their one truth path. This, even though Brooks notes, “the majority, even a vast majority, of the people who enroll in the program do not succeed in it.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanton-peele/aa-isnt-the-best-solution_b_629004.html

I don’t know enough about Lois or Smith, but Wilson clearly was a greedy reprehensible dirt bag.

Sigh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergy

Allergic diseases are strongly familial: identical twins are likely to have the same allergic diseases about 70% of the time; the same allergy occurs about 40% of the time in non-identical twins.[23] Allergic parents are more likely to have allergic children,[24] and their allergies are likely to be more severe than those from non-allergic parents. Some allergies, however, are not consistent along genealogies; parents who are allergic to peanuts may have children who are allergic to ragweed. It seems that the likelihood of developing allergies is inherited and related to an irregularity in the immune system, but the specific allergen is not.[24]