Keep Coming Back! Crime in AA

Click Here for the Keep Coming Back Archive

A couple of years ago, I started using the Keep Coming Back tag for DUI stories involving drunk people who were either driving away from or toward an AA meeting and people with multiple DUIs who were sentenced to yet more AA. Over the last couple of years, the Keep Coming Back series has evolved into a repository of news stories about crimes committed by AA members.

Alcoholics Anonymous actively forges an alliance with the court system and has been doing so for years.  They even have a pamphlet encouraging members to 12 Step (recruit) in the justice system which instructs members on the mental gymnastics of playing fast and loose with the traditions in order to justify having people sent to AA against their will. The resulting alliance has been mutually copacetic: AA keeps its rooms full and the courts shunt some of the burden away from their overcrowded jails.

While AA and the courts have developed a perfectly symbiotic thing, the results have been a disaster for vulnerable alcoholics, addicts, the mentally ill, and other unwitting people who wander into the rooms looking for help from this trusted organization, including children. Judges regularly mandate AA for criminals who were brought before the court for violent crimes, domestic abuse, sexual predation, financial predation, even child molestation. And criminals who seek to mitigate their sentencing are often successful if they can convince the judge that they have turned their lives around by attending AA meetings. (“Judge, I may have stabbed that guy in the head, but I’ve changed! I realize that I have a disease and I’m going to AA now!).

So, there’s a couple of problems right there. While Ann Landers is telling you to stage an intervention and send your teenage daughter to AA, some judge is sentencing a domestic abuser to the same meeting. AA’s membership numbers depends on court orders — which means that many of the people in the rooms have problems that are well outside the scope of AA to handle.

But wait, there’s more!

Alcoholics Anonymous prides itself on being a leaderless organization of anonymous people, which means that no one’s in charge; there’s no oversight or accountability; no system of checks and balances; no way of screening people who want to sponsor other people. And, all of these people are anonymous.  A court mandated sexual offender can walk into a meeting without anyone having to know. In fact, a sexual predator could walk into a meeting, too, and just bask, anonymously, in the vast array of vulnerability and brokenness.

If that were not bad enough, AA’s own teachings — the steps, the slogans, the protocol — encourage people to believe that they are powerless and that if they are victimized in any way, the spiritually sober thing to do is to look at their part in their own victimization: what did they do to bring it on? It teaches them that anger and resentment are the gateway to relapse and members are chided for expressing anger or harboring resentment.

Add to this the mini-hierarchies that AA fosters within the rooms — through sponsorship and the veneration of old-timers, for instance. People become overly involved in each other’s private lives, listening to their confessions and secrets — even sharing their “sexual inventories” —  becoming involved in their personal decisions, sometimes to the point of overriding doctors’ orders.

If someone charged me with concocting a social scenario that would foster abuse, I couldn’t come up with a better recipe.

The stories in the Keep Coming Back series highlight the abuses and crimes that occur in and around AA and the way AA is used as a dumping ground for criminals and people who need professional mental health care. We find a few of these stories a week, and it’s only by chance that reporters include the AA connection — usually for the sake of the ironic twist. But, Alcoholics Anonymous has a relationship with the media, and uses the tradition of anonymity to encourage news outlets to honor it.  The more Keep Coming Back stories we find, the more we wonder how many have gone unreported, especially since AA requests and has received special pleading from the media. Is there any other organization — even the Catholic Church, for instance — that is allowed to dictate to the media how it is covered?

Here are a few lines from AA’s open letter to the media:

Anonymity Letter to Media

General Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous

May 2010


From time to time we write our public media friends to thank them for helping us observe our long-standing tradition of anonymity for members of Alcoholics Anonymous.

First, let us express our deep gratitude to you. [snip]  The public media has been a vital part of this effort, and today we estimate that there are more than 2 million successfully recovering members of Alcoholics Anonymous in more than 180 countries.

Second, we respectfully request that you continue to cooperate with us in maintaining the anonymity of A.A. members. The principle of anonymity is a basic tenet of our fellowship. [snip] If an A.A member is identified in the media, we ask that you please use first names only (e.g., Bob S. or Alice F.) and that you not use photographs or electronic images in which members’ faces may be recognized.

Again, we thank you for your continued cooperation. [snip]


Public Information Committee of Alcoholics Anonymous

[Emphasis is mine.]

Not only does AA get a pass in the media, but AA’s cohort, the criminal justice system, is rife with people who are invested in the program. Either they are members themselves or they make money off 12-Step treatment, which always uses AA as aftercare. A few months ago, Speedy wrote a few comments teasing out the fruitlessness of bringing some sort of legal action against AA, and our resident AA scold, JD, responded to the idea thus:

I’m just glad you’re just talking about suing the bad AAs instead of talking firebombs.

Great idea, though Speedy is right on about some of the difficulties that make it a silly course of action that no worthwhile mouthpiece would consider taking on in a million years. It would give them something to laugh with the buddies at lunch though, so you’d at least be accomplishing more than chewing through the same old drivel daily.

You do have some idea how many judges and lawyers are solid AAs, right? They are a firewall against this kind of thing. And the members in all the media. Plenty more in government than you can imagine. Plenty in the medical and all science professions, lots of people highly placed throughout business, ect. Like any facinated groupies you keep track of entertainers, but there are a ton you’ve no clue about.

All very willing to counter any fantasies you’d like to bring into court.

[JD is concerned about being selectively edited, so please be sure to note that I have linked to the comments in question and the whole discussion is available to provide the full context.]

Keep Coming Back is updated regularly with new stories, so keep coming back. I hope that this archive will make it clear that AA’s policy of anonymity is at best anachronistic. But at this point it serves more to protect this organization from oversight and accountability. If it protects anyone anymore it’s AA as an organization. It shields them from scrutiny while leaving vulnerable people without recourse. AA claims that it must honor its tradition of anonymity, but by building this alliance with the courts, AA is breaking the very tradition it claims to be upholding. The second half of the 11th tradition is about maintaining anonymity, “we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.” But the first half of this tradition reads: “our public relations policy is based on attraction, not promotion.” I suppose you could read that as “Thou shalt not advertise,” but to my mind, there’s only a small difference between putting up a billboard and meeting personally with court officials to encourage them to sentence people to attend AA meetings. (The difference, of course, is that the face-to-face meeting is more of a classic hard sell– think Amway.)

AA’s 3rd tradition has to do with membership. It begins, “Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover.” The updated version reads, “The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.” It seems that the spirit of this tradition, the heart of AA, is that its members are willing — that they have a desire. Why would AA allow the survival of its organization to depend upon the forced participation that the coerced simply don’t qualify for, according to its own tradition? It may very well be that there are some court-mandated attendees who genuinely wish to quit drinking. But the predictable result of AA’s alliance with the courts is that people, whose primary problem is that they’re violent or predatory, end up in the rooms among those vulnerable people who genuinely believe that they are trusting themselves to a righteous organization. AA is deliberately violating its 3rd tradition at the expense of its honest members (who are instructed to trust the group because they cannot trust their own alcoholic thinking). And, again, AA is relying on its tradition of anonymity to shield itself from the results of its aggressive disregard of its own traditions about membership, affiliation, and attraction.

I worry that making Keep Coming Back more publicly accessible will inspire a campaign to squelch the kinds of stories we dig up. As it is, most media outlets regularly publish paeans to AA as filler. My hope, however, is that KCB will become a resource for people who are fighting forced AA — whether by the courts or family interventions. I hope it will alarm the cultural icons who believe they’re doing a great, no-brainer public service by advising people to attend AA. Maybe people in policy-making positions will start looking into AA more keenly. Perhaps judges who send teens to AA will realize that their colleagues are sending domestic abusers there, too. I also hope people in the media see this and start thinking twice about honoring AA’s demand that it be protected from scrutiny.

Now: Click Here for the Keep Coming Back Archive

The comments section below is mostly a free-for-all, not to be confused with the KCB Archive.







  • In 2008 Scott Gordon Reynolds was sentenced to 50 years for shooting his Sponsor Uriel Noriega to death at a Church AA meeting in Long Beach California. The threads is still open for comments on USA Today.

  • Chris

    They themselves (AA) don`t follow the their traditions, like the billboard advertising AA I saw yesterday. I`ve also seen t.v. spots. The whole thing is a farce.

  • Chris

    /fɑrs/ Show Spelled
    [fahrs] Show IPA
    noun, verb, farced, farc·ing.
    1. a light, humorous play in which the plot depends upon a skillfully exploited situation rather than upon the development of character.

  • AntiDenial

    hey please dont forget about NA ! They have the samre problems if not worse because of the meth heads,other drug use. Of course we want to see them off of drugs-but help them
    in a humane way for all concerned. Not just the way the narcissistic Organizations
    of AA and NA do it.

  • AntiDenial

    Thank you FTG for adding this.In reality maybe it will get the attention of reporters who want to make a name for themselves to write about such a suppressed problem.
    They would have endless material. Come on REPORTERS-do what yo are supposed to-REPORT. This is for real.This is huge.This is America-freedom of speech -right?
    Dont let the AA/NA squash your story. Dont continue to enable them and thus allowing this continued abuse and taking away rights of Americans.I know this is a worldwide issue-so to all of you all over the world sharpen your pencil and expose this secret society they deny themselves to be. Help the taxpayers to stop funding 12 step programs
    and mandating attendance. HELP!!!!!!

  • AntiDenial

    Dear Media-Please stop covering all this put a stop to it.
    If not for the adults-do it for the CHILDREN.Ya know the ones that go with the parents and hear the horror stories and are surrounded by felons. The children who’s mom has a sponsor that is a felon-but has no background check. The teenagers that are sent their
    by the courts and therapists who smoked a joint and a few beers are now with criminals
    with long criminal histories and involved in much harder drugs.
    The vulnerable 16 year old that gets hit on constantly by 13 steppers-many much older.
    The children need protection not thrown to the lions. So Media if you want to do the write thing and not pander to AA/NA-stop sugarcoating your stories.Start some investigative reporting! Helping the children at least would be a start.

  • Well in all fairness, I do have to say I did find one good article about AA and the 12 Steps. In March of 2007 William Beebe in CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va was sentenced to ten years in prison (he only has to do 18 months) for a rape he had done in 1984.

    Mr. Beebe was an avid AA member. While doing his 9th Step (making amends) he sent a letter to his victim asking for amends and he was arrested for it. AA does have a way out of it though, you see he did not follow Step 9 correctly. Step 9 has a built in disclaimer at the the end of it……. “except when to do so would injure them or others”……

    Comments are still open on the thread at CBS.

  • imoverit

    antiDenial your last post has real merit. it resonates with me to the point my bones are vibrating! it needs to be heard!!! find your voice and make it count…how can we get the real deal out there?!?!

  • Gunmen attack AA meeting in Mexico one dead – Nov 2009
    Happened in Cuidad Juarez, Mexico. Drug Cartels are believed to be recruiting juveniles in AA meetings and Rehab Clinics as runners and distributors for thier drugs.

  • Man shoots thief at AA meeting. Happened at Edison, NJ. in the “Five Points Alcoholics Anonymous” Group. It appears that Kayson Helms was shot by a member of the group after he entered the gathering with his own gun with the intent to rob it. This a link to the copy of the entire story. Please note that the author also admits that the original story in the State website has been deleted. Do not let this information disappear off the web.

    I didn’t know it was common place to carry your gun to an AA meeting.

  • Chris

    A Big Book in one hand and a half-loaded gun in the other. Why only 6 bullets? Load the freakin thing man, what if needed the seventh bullet?, stupid.

  • Chris

    Next time do the barney fife thing. Only 1 bullet and keep it in your pocket.

  • Correction “Five Points Alcoholics Anonymous” is in Columbia, SC. Edison, NJ is where the Kayson Helms is from.

  • AntiDenial

    @Imovert- Thank you .I feel passionate about it,so maybe we all can make a difference.
    Even though my statement was an open letter of sorts.We can literally contact our local newspapers to do stories.We can contact our state representatives and complain about the courts forcing AA/NA attendance.We can let our local high schools know,therapists,probation officers and judges know about alternatives. They are currently some Drug Courts that do not mandate AA because of the sexual harrassment issues.
    But there are many that still do. We need to show them the data about the happenings within the rooms,and how unhealthy this is for the children.We can contact our local Drug court and ask if they offer alternatives and if not if they would etc. We can ask AA and NA
    to put out a bulletin to stop the practice of solicitating children and teens.Of course they are a tough bunch to talk to. But we know have the internet and all the people mentioned have e-mail addresses. Just a few thoughts!

  • A good place to start would be to identify which Drug Courts do not mandate AA attendance and how that was accomplished. Does anyone have any examples of what states and cities this is happening in? The next stop would logically be to find out what Federal Courts oversee these areas and look for common attributes. We need to look at the City and State levels first to find the common link.

  • AntiDenial

    Blue Earth County MN Drug Court offers alternatives.
    You can google their website.

    I heard that the Veteran Drug Courts require alternatives. But I have not been able to prove this. The more we can show Drug Courts that currently dont that others do would be a good selling point to pressure them.

  • hulahoop

    Albert L. Kidd Jr., 36, and Chester Ray Hensley, 30, were reported as escapees after failing to return to the Beckley Correctional Center after an Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous meeting on Monday, according to information provided by the West Virginia Division of Corrections.

    Hmmm…I wonder where they are. I was going to say they probably won’t be found at an AA meeting nor an NA meeting…but you never know.

  • Blue Earth County MN Drug Court may not be a good example to follow. I believe that thier program will send someone with a very small drug charge in to a quick downward spiral. There is no way for a person on this program to maintain a job. The court fine may be $500, but they will definitely ruin someone like a teenager or outstanding citizen who made a mistake. The usual 1 year probation includes the following (Short list, long list is unbelievable):

    Phase 1 (until graduation to Phase 2))
    1. Signing waivers to numerous State and Government agencies for access to medical records.
    2. AA/NA/CA meeting 3 times a week. (Signed court slips required.)
    3. Weekly Court appearances.
    4. Random Drug tests paid for by defendant.

    Phase 2 (four to six months until graduation to Phase 3)
    1. AA/NA/CA verified attendance 3 times per week.
    2. Have a Sponsor
    3. Weekly Court appearances
    4. Get and maintain employment (someone please explain to me how with all of these mandatory court meetings?)

    Phase 3 (if you make it here without violating your probation)
    1. Group counseling once a week.
    2. Random Drug tests at least three times a month.
    3. Verified attendance at 3 AA/NA/CA meetings a week.
    4. Court appearance every 2 weeks.
    5. Failure to be paying court costs or rehab costs immediate violation of probation.

    Phase 4 (If you still have a job and not violated probation)
    1. Group therapy sessions one time per week.
    2. Random Drug tests at least 2 times per month.
    3. Actively paying all Court and Rehab fees.
    4. Court appearance once a month.
    5. AA/NA/CA verified attendance 3 times a week.
    6. Recreation and Fellowship? (interesting choice of words)

    This drug court has contracted with New Ulm Medical Center and New Beginnings-Waverly for the preferred providers of rehab and verifying the payment and oversight of all rehab and probation violations. Has anyone figured in thier head how much these two providers make off of every person referred to them? Shocking isn’t it?

    So the next time you are in this area of Minnesota and someone tells you that “No one ever makes a dime off of AA”……………………………

  • hulahoop

    Update! They were captured. The folks in West Virginia can slep tonight…or maybe not. Work release inmates are being released to go to meetings. They promise to return after the meeting. I wonder why they don’t have meetings at the work release facility instead of releasing inmates to go public meetings.

    According to investigators, Kidd and Hensley had been at the center from December up until March when they went on the lamb. The two claimed to be heading to a substance abuse meeting, but never returned.

    The first story names AA and NA. The follow up story reads “substance abuse meeting. I wonder why there is change.

  • hulahoop

    @JR – One of the requirements of the program you posted about is to have a sponsor? Who chooses the sponsor? Does the sponsor go through a background check? Will the sponsor have any training to deal with substance abuse problems other than experience?

  • AntiDenial

    Jr-I am not sure where you got your info-but in the link to ‘participant handbook’
    It states that you in phase 1 you go to 3 support meetings a week AA,NA,Smart Recovery,Women for sobriety,and or one other meeting that provides support to be approved by probation. What you shared though is very typical requiremments of drug is my understanding though that at least Blue Earth lets you go to meetings other than AA/NA.

  • I don’t suppose the changes in reporting are due to the corporate Traditions that Bill Wilson wrote to protect his corporation? They are chanted at pretty much every AA/NA meeting.

    Tradition 10: “Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.”

    Tradition 11: “Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.”

  • Blue Earth County MN Drug Court (the sign up paperwork for the program, true it is dated 4/2007, the AA Serenity Hornets may have mutated it using Tradition 10 and 11 from the “how to be a cult manual” sometimes referred to as the 12X12 )

  • imoverit

    kkK@ antiDenial…I know a woman at my local Drug council who might be able to hear this message. I am going on vacation with a friend of mine who sees thru the fog, she has 18 years…I’m not letting this drop.

  • AntiDenial

    imoverit- We need more people like you to make a difference.
    MANY people I talk to are SO clueless to the dangers for children
    it is scary. Typically though there is more protection on our laws for them
    that I think we can use to our advantage.

  • AntiDenial
  • Please note that a .gov site will be the actual policy makers in the area you are researching. They are reserved sites that only verified government agencies can use. These sites are used by lawyers as a source of current law in an area being researched.

    To determine who in your area is profiting off of AA/NA etc…….. go to and put in the local AA office in your area. It is a graphical interface with associations to the corporations in question. What I am finding out is that profiting and promoting AA/NA is a family business and people are making a bundle off of it. They have an abundance of free and cheap labor at thier disposal. In every area I have checked, I have found multiple corporations registered under family members, maiden names, nicknames, etc……. I am currently researching one area that I have found 22 corporations, all tied in some way to one person and the Rehab Addiction industry through AA/NA who are making much more than corporate AA in New York.

  • Chris

    My friend Patrick who is a beer drinker and does NOT CARE. Every time he gets a public intox charge or petty pot charge, they try to give him the above bullshit counseling OPTION. He says, “I`m NOT DOIN SHIT, put me in jail.” He gets out in a few months, time served.

  • Chris

    When you`re on ALL these drug court or AA required attendance things, you`re not really free anyway. Plus, you`re stressing about how to pay for everything.

  • AntiDenial

    Chris-it is also very hard on the family. Who is driving them to these meetings? Who is paying there monthly fees to the court? Who is babysitting the children when at meetings?
    Who is keeping a roof over their head? It isnt the person in Drug Court. It is very difficult to get
    a job with all of these hoops they have to jump through. In many cases the person is way better off doing a plea bargain doing their time and be done with it.
    Remember the teens in Georgia who should not even received any jail time-but under drug court were tied up in the system for years AND spent time in jail!!!

  • I didn’t know where to put this article about MIDTOWN that I found, so I am putting it here, everything we have been talking about on this blog is the same things they discussed in 2007 with the Midtown Group. When will they learn?

  • chris

    AA can`t learn anything, they already know everything.

  • hulahoop

    The event featured representatives from agencies such as CADA, Bermuda Massage Association, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Bermuda Hospitals Board and the Department of National Drug Control.

    AA at a health fair trolling for new members. So much for remaining anonymous.

  • hulahoop

    Dr. Robert Ernest Clark III of Memphis Health Clinic was disciplined for impairment due to alcohol, drugs or medical condition. Clark entered into an agreed order in February that prohibits him from prescribing controlled substances for 10 years. He also must abstain from alcohol and drugs during that time and is required to attend Alcoholics Anonymous five days per week, undergo psychiatric evaluation, pass the medical jurisprudence exam within two years and complete 16 hours of continuing education in record keeping and ethics.
    “The action was based on Dr. Clark’s failure to maintain adequate medical records; his inability to practice medicine because of excessive use of drugs; his failure to practice in an acceptable, professional manner; dishonorable conduct; and his inappropriate prescription of dangerous drugs or controlled substances to himself and his wife,” the board said.

  • BusBozo

    Another case of a state (a bible thumping one in this instance), relying on faith healing to take care of the scoundrel. And so it goes!

  • Commonsense

    @hula – Skip the AA booth. Get the massage.

    As for Dr. Clark, I wonder why the appropriate application of AA is five meetings per week. Lets face it, the authorities that are requiring Dr. Clark to attend five meetings per week are guilty of failure to practice in an acceptable, professional manner, dishonorable conduct, and inappropriately prescribing cult membership.

  • hulahoop

    Apparently April is Alcohol Awareness Month. I had no idea. Why can’t I shake the idea that Alcohol Awareness Month is really just another way for AA to further their own agenda?

    This is a link to a Q&A session with Vivian B. Faden, PhD (is director of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Office of Science Policy and Communications (OSPC) and associate director of Behavioral Research, in Bethesda, Md. Dr. Faden also leads the NIAAA’s Underage Drinking Research Initiative.)

    I am disappointed with the answer she gave to the following question. I mean, I am glad she mentioned a few alternatives, but she reinforced AA (faith healing) without mentioning SMART or any other self help options available. The question asks about alternatives to AA…she still mentions AA in her response. Sorry Doc, AA is not a mutual support group. It’s a religious program that brainwashes people in to thinking they will die if they leave.

    Q: What is psychology’s role in researching and understanding drinking? Other than Alcoholics Anonymous, are there other effective programs that help people curb or stop their drinking?
    Dr. Faden: Psychology continues to play an important role in researching and understanding drinking behavior and in developing behaviorally based interventions. Advances in the treatment of alcoholism mean that patients now have more choices and health professionals have more tools to help. Choices include mutual support groups such as Alcoholics Anonymous, behavioral therapies such as brief motivational interviewing and cognitive behavioral therapy, medications such as naltrexone and acamprosate, and specialized intensive treatment programs. These interventions may be used alone or in combination.

  • hulahoop

    I forgot about this –
    Q: What is psychology’s role in researching and understanding drinking? Other than Alcoholics Anonymous, are there other effective programs that help people curb or stop their drinking?

    The interviewer ASSUMES AA is effective. I wonder why that is when statistics show AA is not effective for the majority of people who attempt it. And again, I am very disappointed the doctor did not mention other groups by name.

  • JD

    HH, perhaps the other groups slipped her mind because all the plan b groups in the world number less than the AA meetings in a decent sized town, and when taken as a whole are not the landscape changing force you might hope them to be.

    61 weekly SOS meetings nationwide are listed. And because it’s a big wide world out there we have 2 weekly meetings in other countries because as you know, SOS is an international organization. The funny thing was back when JC was making up meetings and got caught at it, so probably most of the currently listed meetings such as they are, are more than likely real.

    LifeRing has 141 weekly meetings worldwide, and is growing by 5 or 6 meetings with each passing year.

    WFS says they’ve grown to literally hundreds of meetings since ’76 but won’t say where they are.

    MM has 13 conveniently located weekly meetings nationwide. And 3 in the rest of the world.

    Because there are alcoholics all over the world, Smart has 1 in India, and 1 in New Zealand, and 1 in Brazil (no that closed, sorry), and a few other countries.

    So, the Doctor can perhaps be forgiven for disappointing you so gravely. Some of these plan bs have been around 30 years now, several are hitting the 20yr mark. It would seem they should have more activity, but they do not.

    Examining the reality within them in some detail is fun, and makes it obvious why they remain on the far, far outside fringe of recovery. Would you really expect the Dr to mention some program that has 3 people meeting up each week 5 states away from her?

  • AnnaZed

    @hulahoop [who wonders] ~ “…Why can’t I shake the idea that Alcohol Awareness Month is really just another way for AA to further their own agenda?”

    The reason that you can’t quite shake that notion is because that is exactly what it is:

  • tintop

    Examining the reality within them in some detail is fun

    get it done troll.

    put up or shut up, loser
    and get your fat ass beaten again

  • AA was also very limited in availability when it first started. To gain momentum chapter 7 starting on page 89 entitled “WORKING WITH OTHERS” was written in the Big Book. This is an extremely manipulative chapter telling thier members how to go to churches, institutions, doctors, priests and spouses. It is very carefully written and stresses that when talking to these different entities, not all of them should be made aware, so as not to scare off your “prospect”.

    JD I am going to act as an AA drone and convict of just using chapter 7 in an attempt to tell everyone that AA is the only thing that works, so don’t even attempt it just join AA. Go ahead JD, open up your book and find that passage. You probably have it underlined, along with the passages that you can use when people call you on it.

    Resources should not be squandered, use your brain to fix problems, not cause them.

  • AntiDenial

    Smart Recovery is a worldwide organization having many more than 1 face to face meetings in other countries. Smart Recovery is the leader in alternatives. Also they offer
    free online meetings that for those that need it-can be verified for the courts.
    So even if you are in the middle of no where and there is not even an AA meeting,low and behold-there is Smart Recovery a few clicks away. Also it really is Anonymous if you want to be.

  • JD

    TT, I’m afraid I can’t understand you and sadly I’ve no moron handy to translate what you might be trying to say into any useful communication that might approximate that used by normal folk. Guess we’re both stuck.

    Must be awful for you. The short confused misfires you are able to type appear to be something very like Tourette’s, I’d guess coupled with a rapidly advancing wet brain condition. We really should try to enjoy you as best we can before all your limited communication abilities slide completely away.

    Suggest upping the vitamin B, as that might slow it down some.

    Why not ask those caring for you to post your questions instead? If I can make any sense of them I promise to respond.

  • JD, I’m shocked at you! That was not a very AA thing to say. What page out of the AA terrorist manual did you get that one? Per the manual, you are supposed to tell them that you are only trying to help them, while you are going to thier priests, doctors, spouses and employers telling them about the disease they have so that they can be put in jails or institutions and hit bottom.

    Please re-read chapter 7 again, you are slipping. Oh Yeah…… and keep coming back!

  • tintop

    JD : I do not care what you do not understand, dipshit.
    Perhaps you can undertsnd, as you cannot be that stupid and live:
    You are not worth the poweder that it would take to blow youto hell.
    Got it, fool?

  • tintop

    Why not ask those caring for you to post your questions instead? If I can make any sense of them I promise to respond.

    Just in case you did understand:
    go to hell and by the shortest road. and take your advice with you.

  • MikeAugustine

    @tt, take it easy. The guy ain’t worth the taps on the querty. You know he enjoys the attention. (btw, I do like the foster brooks analogy)

  • tintop

    JD ain’t worth nuthin
    the burned old reprobate does remind me of Foster Brooks; although Foster does have more sense than JD. JD is so stupid he would drown himself by tilting head up trying to drink in a rainstorm.

  • hulahoop

    JD, you may twist it any way you like..the good doctor did not answer the question presented to her. If she doesn’t know of alternatives to AA, then she should just say so. Intelligent people have no problem admitting when they don’t know. Then they try to educate themselves. That is what makes them intelligent. She should name the alternatives by name if she does.

    I am thinking there is a specific reason she did not name SMART nor any of the alternatives. Could that reason be that one or more of the organizations she is affiliated with is somehow connected with AA? Perhaps you should research it yourself and report back here with what you find since you seem to be in a researching kind of mood today. Hopefully it will keep you busy for awhile.

  • Lucy

    AA likes to think that a slap moral superiority loses its sting when it’s delivered in a velvet glove. When the slap is returned, it has to assume that the other person misunderstood the reason for the wallop.

    Bill Wilson did it quite a lot. He wrote, “We stepped on the toes of others and they retaliated” but then went onto mention how sick other people were for misunderstanding his intentions.

    Leaving AA made me understand just how unhealthy moral indignation is for me. It closes off any attempt to communicate and makes me look like an idiot to other people. Baiting by any other name is still baiting, and I really don’t like myself when I become that petty. It’s a whole lot more fun to do something positive, like walking my dog or talking to a friend, than being a dick,

    JD, and I say this as a real attempt to try to talk to you and not bait you into an argument, What you do here isn’t 12 step work. They don’t want what you have, and they are very aware of what that is. What you do here doesn’t defend AA. AA either stands or falls, as it says in the Traditions, by being self-supporting and attracting (not promoting) others. What you do here doesn’t make AA better. AA is killing itself by purposeful self-deception, breaking the traditions that made it supple enough to grow, ruthless self promotion, ignorance of good medicine and good psychology and blind religiosity, What you do here doesn’t make you look smarter or hipper or cool. These people see right through you, and it just makes you mad.

    Leaving AA is like coming out as gay. It doesn’t make your life easier. It makes it harder, It makes you less acceptable, and it takes away your friends. To leave is a tough choice and when you do the double speak with the thinly disguised intent to let us know we are stupid…well, it’s not only makes you look mean, but it makes you look like a bully.

    I don’t think that is what you are. So, please, show me that you are better than that and either talk to us or leave. But stop the bullshit.

  • Z

    Good post Lucy, and hi tintop!

  • tintop

    Hi Z!
    Lucy, I agree with Z. That is a good post.

    But, JD does not have the sense the good lord give him; he threw that sense away years ago.

  • JD

    HH, I was trying to give you a reason why the plan bs are below her radar and that of most normal people, to soothe the great disappointment you said you felt. Examining SOS further I see there are a total of 33 weekly meetings nationwide available for those alcoholics living in states other than NY and CA. And of course, 2 weekly meetings for those living outside the US as some are wont to do.

    To illuminate this for you by way of contrast, there are 4277 Walmart stores nationwide. If the good Doctor were to be asked where one might locate a hedge trimmer at a decent price she would probably mention Walmart, because they have some kind of presence in the real world. She would not mention Jackson’s Hardware and Farm Emporium 4 states away, even though they sell fine trimmers at a fair rate.

    Jackson would not hold that against her, surely. In the same spirit you should also cut her some slack for not having a bunch of names of groups that with few exceptions people do not have access to.

    Best to just let it go. At least she had the knowledge that some plan bs exist out there somewhere, which means she is more informed than most.

  • Ben Franklin

    JD , you are confusing quantity with quality again. Just because there may be 1.2 million AA members doesn’t mean they are sober. Or sane. Most people use no program at all. I don’t.

    I dunno. Having a drunken 12 year old son seems to show an ineffective program to me. But hey that would be moralizing and pontificating. Right?

  • I believe what JD is trying to do, is infect this thread with AA gibberish. It would appear that he is doing this so that if any researchers who want to see what the latest problems in AA are, all as they will see is gibberish. If you notice, any threads that come even close to revealing the truth, he quickly attacks and changes the subject.

    Beware the AA trolls that do this, they are doing it on purpose.

  • JD

    Ben, my Son is a terrific example of how AA changes an alcoholic and redirects our lives to good purpose. He was chosen from his graduating class to receive a high honor, given to only one student selected by a group of professors at his top school each year. He is the best of the best. Drinking, it was another story entire. Doing all the stuff in AA through the years changed things for him, and that is the biggest understatement you will read this year. There is no other path that could have possibly brought him to this point, for reasons I’ll not go into for purposes of privacy.

    Our condition is not anyone’s fault. I feel embarassed for you in needing to state something so elementary. Your Daddy did not make you a drunk, and neither did mine. If you’re still making the error of ignorantly blaming yours, then you should stop it.

  • MikeAugustine

    @jd, funny how you capitalize the word Son when referring to your offspring. I mean, I’m as susceptible to Freudian slips as the next guy, but c’mon.

  • JD

    Good point, Mike. Next month I’ll start calling him Doc.

  • MikeAugustine

    And as is the case with my own children, jd, I hope your son possesses a great deal more compassion than does his father.

  • tintop

    “Our condition is not anyone’s fault. I feel embarassed for you in needing to state something so elementary. Your Daddy did not make you a drunk, and neither did mine. If you’re still making the error of ignorantly blaming yours, then you should stop it.”

    I told you that this silly sumbitch cannot pour piss out of a boot with instructions written on the heel. One of these days the moderator will figure that out and get baby sweet jesus to drop kick him through thr goal posts of stinkin thinkin.
    Until that happens — you will have to read his drunken rants that make Foster grant sound sober.

  • Ben Franklin

    JD, you still don’t get it. I am saying that the program is a failure, especially if one of its adherents fails to carry the message to his own son. I mean come on. Not very many 12 year old children become alcoholic that early. In fact it seems contrived. Kind of like it was made up to ” qualify” something like people do in the rooms to make them sound more alcoholic then you. !2 year old, 12 steps. Seems like Sciency girl.

  • hulahoop

    No JD, I will not cut the doctor any slack. I shouldn’t have to. She was specifically asked about alternatives to AA and did not answer the question. Just because the alternatives are smaller in size and not as readily available as AA are not excuses not to mention them. It is her job to know what they are, as well as to be able to give alternatives to AA.

    The doctor gets paid with tax dollars. So here we have a government official recommending a religious spiritual program that has been proven not to work for the majority of people who attempt it or are forced in to going there.

    Here is a link to an archived newspaper from 1969. There is a small ad in the personals column. It reads, “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS: Weekly Meetings, Write PO Box XXX.” That is part of how AA used to recruit new members back in the day. Weekly meetings…hmmm. Sounds like some of the alternatives today.,314168&dq=alcoholics+anonymous&hl=en

  • UPDATE – Sober House problems in Falmouth Massachusets

    Published: 02/04/11 By: Brent Runyon

    “Falmouth officials have renewed efforts to regulate sober houses in town following the arrests of five men associated with a sober house on Locust Street, Falmouth, since December, but their enforcement powers are limited by federal laws protecting people with disabilities.
    There are 12 sober houses in Falmouth, and as many as 100 residents living in the homes. The homes are situated throughout Falmouth in residential neighborhoods, but there are no local, state, or federal regulations governing the houses.”

    “Residents of sober houses are protected by the Americans with Disabilities Act, which covers recovering alcoholics and drug addicts, and the Federal Fair Housing Act of 1988, which bans discrimination against certain groups, including those with handicaps, in the sale, rental, or use of housing.”

    “Sober houses came to the attention of officials recently when five men identified as sober house residents were arrested for robbery, assault and battery, breaking and entering to a commercial building, and motor vehicle theft in three separate incidents.”


  • hulahoop

    According to Mr. Dougherty’s information, sober houses charge anything from $105 a week for a double room to $280 a week for a single room.

    Wow! That could potentially be a lot of cash to collect each month depending on how big the house is and how many people you can squeeze in to it. Who pays the rent?

  • JD

    HH, it wouldn’t surprise me if AA still runs ads like that. A group I was part of kept a little ad running in a small newspaper, and the area groups and individuals would chip in each quarter. Never know when it might do some good.

    A guy I met was once on a running drunk and stopped by his house to rest up overnight, admitted by his pissed off spouse who had changed the locks. When he awoke and was going through her purse for some drinking money he pulled out a newspaper clipping familiar to some of us…’from this date forward I shall be responsible for no debts but my own’ that his wife had placed. He turned it over and glanced at the other side of his wife’s notice for a second which happened to be the AA ad.

    He traveled some miles, winding up at a hotel bar I used to drink at while pretending to listen to jazz recordings. There was a bank of wooden phone booths across from the entrance and though very drunk and having seen the # for a second he dialed AA up and began his sobriety. When I met him at a convention he’d passed 31 years, and that was an easy 25yrs ago.

    Pretty cool I knew the exact booths he called from. Just checked and the hotel is now a boutique hotel, no doubt the booths are long gone. Served their purpose though.

  • MA

    Wow, JD. An amazing story. No doubt your group fell over themselves explaining how it must have been God™ who put that clipping right there where he would find it. Nothing happens by accident, you know.

  • JD

    Ben, if it’s more comfortable for you then tell yourself it cannot possibly be true and then carry on. That you do anything differently matters not to me.

  • JD

    Really, MA? After we say that, what do we say next? Are our expressions that of hightened interest, with our brows raised?

    Do describe more of this funny little scene playing in your head, It’s aways a kick to hear how your fantasies appear to you. Are there little dogs running around? Do the walls shimmer and shake?

  • JD I am shocked at you again! 12&12 p.67, Step Six “In a perverse way we can actually take satisfaction from the fact that many people annoy us, for it brings a comfortable feeling of superiority.”

    Please take the time to read your terrorist manuals and come back.

  • tintop

    the village idiot having an rational conversation

    Hi JD!

  • tintop

    Ben, if it’s more comfortable for you then tell yourself it cannot possibly be true and then carry on. That you do anything differently matters not to me.

    wow, dracie, you certainly tolld him!
    what a shut down that was!!

  • tintop

    Our condition is not anyone’s fault. I feel embarassed for you in needing to state something so elementary. Your Daddy did not make you a drunk, and neither did mine. If you’re still making the error of ignorantly blaming yours, then you should stop

    No one is interested in your dipshit advice gracie

    JD is dancing

  • tintop

    Please take the time to read your terrorist manuals and come back.

    The village idiot would never understand it. He is too stupid

  • AnnaZed

    @hulahoop [who wonders (re sober-living scams)] ~ “…That could potentially be a lot of cash to collect each month depending on how big the house is and how many people you can squeeze in to it. Who pays the rent?”

    If you happen to be a recent parolee the state does. Sober living houses are always (there are no exceptions to this) owned by AA members.

  • JD

    Proof that TT and the other island apes can dance, despite all the rumors-seems they just can’t play football.

  • hulahoop

    @Anna – If you happen to be a recent parolee the state does. Sober living houses are always (there are no exceptions to this) owned by AA members.

    Okay…but what if you are not a recent parolee? How can someone of very limited means afford to pay $280 a week for a single room? They could rent a place of their own for less. I mean, even $105.00 a week is a lot of money for someone who doesn’t have a job.

    Oh no…it took me awhile to connect the dots…run an AA meeting, own a soberhouse, possibly get your hands in to a rehAAb…I can see where the potential for AAbuse would be very high.

  • SOBER HOUSE PROBLEMS – Massachussets –, Salem, MA – State board shuts city sober house. By Tom Dalton

    It would appear that Massachsettes has quite a few problems with Sober Houses. This one was very large and had many problems.

    “In May, the building’s owner, Michael Viola, 45, of Saugus, was sentenced to six months in jail for violating the terms of his probation in a 2006 stolen property case.

    He had been arrested a few months earlier on identity fraud and marijuana charges.

    Following Viola’s arrest, Lynn District Court, which had sent a half-dozen men to St. Jean’s House, ordered them to leave and cut all ties with the Salem facility.

    Viola later received a suspended sentence after pleading guilty to stealing the identities of three men in order to open credit cards that were used to pay for renovations at the sober house. A judge also temporarily barred Viola from having a role at the sober house.

    Although he owned the building, Viola did not oversee any treatment programs, a court official said.

    “With the building’s owner in jail and the district courts refusing to send more clients, a state board struck what may be the final blow for the struggling St. Jean’s House, 17-21 Salem St.””


  • tintop

    Proof that TT and the other island apes can dance, despite all the rumors-seems they just can’t play football.

    Dance JD!
    This is you, village idiot!

  • sunny

    George and Gracie!

    and, oh! Monkeys!


    One-two-three-four…I declare a youtube war!


  • AnnaZed

    hulahoop [who asks (re sober living scams)] ~ “…what if you are not a recent parolee? How can someone of very limited means afford to pay $280 a week for a single room?”

    I have posted about this here before somewhere but basically a sober-living scam works like this: there are five potential income streams from which to tap to get the mortgage and utilities paid on your investment property (plus make a hansom profit). They are:

    1.) Have recent parolees live there and the state pays for them (up to three years) while they seek to reintegrate into society. It is just such a sober living hell-hole that housed and brought together the two Connecticut killers.
    2.) Have formerly homeless people on State General Relief live there. The state will not pay their rent (though they will have food stamp cards). They pay their rent by begging at those “please give to help homeless families” tables that you see outside of the grocery store. The sober-living house van dropping them and their xeroxed, laminated literature off in front of stores is a familiar SoCal sight. “Families” sounds better than “semi-homeless drunks and drug addicts” but families are never housed in sober-living scam houses. Failure on the part of the resident to make quotas means expulsion (sober or not). Collecting cans also helps.
    3.) Family members sick of dealing with drunks and addicts often park their ne’er-do-well relatives in sober-living houses. When the family member “relapses” and is expelled, the family is just out the rent for that month not the balance on a lease on a real apartment.
    4.) Renters who actually work sometimes live in sober living accommodations. I knew several when I was in AA who had lived in them for years. With AA’s emphasis on never getting above yourself and actually doing or learning anything these perpetual-holding-pattern AAs never rose above the low-paying jobs that made these accommodations all that they could afford. Plus they seemed to like feeling superior to the relapsers, loved the drama and liked the “structure” of having people tell them what to do with every waking hour of their lives. They were sober though.
    5.) Charity, many sober-living residents have their accommodations paid for by charities, including The United Way.

  • MikeAugustine

    I recommend ‘Affen Furzen’ {monkey farts} for anyone who is longing to hear how an old-timer sounds.

  • Hi Sunny!

  • Ben Franklin

    JD, I will carry on as usual. I will just assume that everything you say is bullshit and has no basis in reality. I also remember when you called me a liar and said you had proof but could not admit how you had proof. So I will just assume too that you concede and will now do a victory lap. Oh victory is sooo sweeet!

    Are you going to the royal wedding? I’ll assume your watching it on TV and will make up some shit for us.

  • tintop


    I see that you caught out village idiot on tape.

    well done!!

  • Don’t forget the Sober House owners families and friends who use it to recruit from the house to find docile and low paid help. They only pick the most dependable ones that can be kept in line and constantly watched by everyone at the sober house. They also don’t advertise that they have positions open, they make them beg for the positions to pay for the rent and get food. It a very efficient personnel department that you don’t have to pay for, it is self supporting. It follows the old company town, company store, company housing business model where whoever is running it makes the most money from multiple streams of income.

  • AnnaZed

    Yes, JR I forgot that. Also the AA member/real estate investor has a captive group of residents to do all maintenance on the property itself (in the interest of AA humility).

  • AnnaZed

    A four bed-room sober-living house usually has three rooms with four (or more) residents to a room sleeping in bunk beds paying the exorbitant rent and one room given gratis to the in house manager/bouncer/demi-guru-in-training. Do the math. Even if food is provided (which it usually isn’t, ex-cons get food stamps too) it’s a nice profit.

  • hulahoop

    4 people x 3 rooms = 12 x 105.00 a week = 1260.00 a week x 4 = 5040.00 a month x 12 = 60,480.00 a year. Holy shit. That is a lot of money especially when you consider we are talking about renting one house.

  • I did this math around here somewhere. It blew my mind how much they could take in monthly on a single house… and if they owned more than one? Recovery Landlords make a nice living.

  • AnnaZed

    Ah yes ftg, that post of yours reminds me about the government grants and low interest loans that are used to set up sober-living scams. You don’t need your own money or a bank-loan to start one; you just need to be an AA guru.

  • The Sober house in Salem Massachusetts that got closed down in July 2009 took up 5 street addresses, they say they don’t know how many people were living there. The owner stole 3 peoples identities and opened up credit card accounts for build onto the house, he also got arrested for a bunch of stuff.

    Lets just say they probably had about 15 rooms with only 2 in each. They claimed an occupancy of 22 but could be as high as 30. 22x4X$105 = $9,240 a month or $1110,880 a year. Looks like the guy was building a little empire…………………

  • AnnaZed

    Figure your mortgage on a $300,000 house in a working class SoCal suburb is about $1,600. Taxes $400 a month. Utilities with all of those people, over $500. Water Bill and trash another $150. So around a $ 2,700 monthly. Trow another couple of thousand at maintenance, allow for some loss due to relapse turn-over and you are still up over $20,000 a year. Nice change for a working class retiree (which most AA gurus are). Then there is the profit on the house when you flip it. Some of that profit has been lost recently in real estate downturn, but this is pretty zero-risk if you just hold on to it for awhile.

  • hulahoop

    From the NICD (National Institute on Chemical Dependency) – “How to open a halfway house in the United States.”

    Gawd! I couldn’t make up this shit if I tried.

  • SOBER HOUSE – Norwich Connecticut -The Day – “Sober house’s troubles outlive its founder” By Claire Bessette – Published 01/31/2010

    Sean Stevens “, 43, died Nov. 7 of an accidental heroin overdose at his home at 228 South Thames St. Two weeks earlier he had been arrested for allegedly molesting a young boy.”

    “One tenant, who asked not to be identified, did move there after being released from the SCADD alcohol detox center in New London in October. Patricia Gray, lead counselor at SCADD, said the man specifically asked to be taken to Bentley Avenue and the agency’s van took him there.

    The 29-year-old said he had talked to Stevens and 31 Bentley Ave. seemed like a nice place. But the experience has been a nightmare, he said.

    He said there were frequent arguments, assaults and disputes with the house manager. The man was moved three times to different rooms in the house, and shared the last room with a female resident.

    The man said residents routinely drank alcohol and used drugs and he, too, relapsed into alcohol use from time to time.

    “It’s kind of hard not to when it’s there,” he said.

    In December, he stopped paying his $130 weekly rent, because after Stevens’ death he wasn’t sure who was running the facility. Although there were 12 names on the house mailboxes during a recent visit, the man said tenants have been leaving regularly since Stevens died, including a husband and wife who lived there with their teenage daughter.”


  • SOBER HOUSES – Woburn, MA $10 MILLION DOLLAR fraud scheme uncovered. Posted Jul 02, 2010

    A Middlesex Grand Jury returned 42 indictments against Callow Laboratories, Inc. (“Calloway”), two of its principals, and two employees of a sober house in connection with a wide-ranging investigation by the Medicaid Fraud Division.

    “The indictments allege that Calloway, Chief Executive Officer Arthur Levitan, and Chief Operating Officer Patrick Cavanaugh, engaged in a pervasive kickback scheme involving two straw companies which funneled kickbacks to sober houses, as well as paid middlemen and a medical office to illegally obtain urine drug screening business paid by MassHealth, the commonwealth’s Medicaid program. The commonwealth alleges that MassHealth paid in excess of $10.6 million for urine drug screen business obtained by Calloway as a result of these illegal kickbacks.”


  • Clyde Strunk

    While im not saying whether I believe JD’s newspaper clip tale, I’ve heard many in thousands of AA mtgs, told by thumpers, ostensibly in order to inspire the newcomer into believing there’s a benevolent guiding hand behind it all, something wonderful, powerful, a aunfailing,. Many later turned out to be false. Some of JD’s responses are kind of disturbing; demonstrating a viciousness that is probably beyond rectification by the steps. I think he’s a sick pup. I’m curious about his motive; why he wishes at all to post on this site, when there are plenty of sites where he’d getlots of positive rah-rah feedback. Why such a pro AA guy wouldn’t be lookin’ to man the phones down at central office or do H & I work, positive stuff in support of his AA attachment rather chooses to waste his time here is interesting, in the context of a psychological profile. Is it kind of a masochist thing? Is he practicing one of the latest trends passing through aa life; “Contrary Action.” Methinks he protests too much. More likely he’s one of us; too long in AA’s gripping claptrap closet to dare venture out in the bright light of rational, logical reality. when one purchases a lemon, even though he may know it’s a lemon, he does the only thing one can do with a lemon. “Pass it on”.

  • Ben Franklin

    Clyde, JD is here because he likes to “piss on ants”. His slogan is not “Pass it on” but “Piss on it”.

  • AnnaZed

    The AA ad on the reverse side of the newspaper clipping that otherwise bears some sort of bad news (in the first version that I heard it was an obituary of a friend but I have heard two other versions, JD’s version is a third) is an old oft-told apocryphal AA story*. In all versions the reader is struck by the juxtaposition of the call to AA on the one side of the clipping and the dire news on the face side and is finally drawn to AA. It is generally considered to be an AA God Shot story.


  • flannigan

    I loved your story. Please tell me name of bar and city,state where located. Also, please tell me year of convention and city, state where located. I would also like your permission to re-tell your story, respecting your anonimity, of course. Thanks.

  • SoberPJ

    I also loved the story of an AA going into a bar and sitting down to have a cup of coffee. He’s sitting there, reading or something, and one of his sponsee’s walks in. The sponsee says, “what are you doing here?”, and the sponsor says, ” I didn’t know until right now.” I wonder how many times THAT myth gets told in da roomz?

    I also like in JD’s story how it ended with

    “Pretty cool I knew the exact booths he called from. Just checked and the hotel is now a boutique hotel, no doubt the booths are long gone. Served their purpose though.”

    Yes, the booths existed in some magical, mystical way to serve their purpose of being involved in one mans story of sobriety. A story I had the privledge of being aware of and it is all so very, very special. But I am not delusional or narcissistic, those phones really were there to be part of this guys miraculous story of not drinking and I AM special for knowing about it, really. Can’t you just feel the wonder, awe and mystery of this whole fairy tale? If you can’t, well, I guess you just don’t get it.

  • Ben Franklin

    Sober PJ, yeah pretty convenient that the booths are long gone. Given the near miraculous religious aspect, you would think they would have saved them and made a shrine.

  • AA meetings and murder charges: Jason Pool, 2011 Austin Texas, part of Travis Count has had his murder charge dismissed in a 2006 slaying outside of an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. Jason Pool is still a suspect, but the is lack of evidence makes the case hard to prove and they are no longer going to go forward with it unless new evidence is found.

    Jason Pool has had many stays in a state psychiatric hospital since his arrest. Channing Harper and Jason Pool both attended an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting on April 10, 2006. Channing Harper was later found the next day behind the building. Finger prints and DNA were found nearby belonging to Jason Pool. Charges were dropped because of questions on motive and time frames in the murder.


  • JD

    You guys…

    Ok Flannigan, only because I’m sure your motives are pure, I’ll answer your questions.

    It was at the District 22 convention held in late August each year (another free Bingo hint that no one here will catch), which was in San Luis Obispo for some years, normally at the Armory building but was moved to the fairgrounds one year (83?) and over at Cal Poly for a couple of years until they caught NA bozos pissing in the plant beds and booted it…wound up in the Paso Robles fairgounds for about 7yrs, then they tried to fiddle with the timing to an early part of the year, but that fizzeled out (we just went to the Santa Maria convention that year, then back to SLO and the old brick Armory again. I do 3-4 a year and SLO is a lot of fun. We have a private group meeting Saturday am somewhere in the surrounding mountains or on the beach at Pismo, and grab always grab lunch as a group at the fish place nearest the pier.

    I remember meeting the guy with the paper story at the Armory when about 3yrs sober, so that would have been about ’85. He was from New Cuyama and made his drunk run to the Padre hotel in Bakersfield…he being about 35 yrs sober in ’85, would put him there in about 1950.

    The bar and 4-5 wooden phone booths were still there when I did my Thursday jazz reviews in the hotel bar, I noticed them because they were way old fashioned in ’78 when I was drinking there, looked like something you’d see in the 30s.

    Have fun.

  • AnnaZed

    So, like Wilson’s demonstrably false story about the location of the bar in the Mayflower Hotel in Akron the one-time existence of these booths somehow makes this story true? What is up with AA members and hotel stories?

    Alrighty then!

  • JD, very interesting post. True to those heavily indoctrinated in the manipulation tactics of AA, it contains copious amounts of information in an attempt to change the conversation. It never did really answer the question or the so called existence of AA in Texas in 1950.

    The entire story is to be considered “hearsay” since it was not heard first hand and the so called answer should be coincided “manipulative”.

  • Ben Franklin

    normally at the Armory building but was moved to the fairgrounds one year (83?) and over at Cal Poly for a couple of years until they caught NA bozos pissing in the plant beds and booted it…

    JD you sure it wasn’t you pissing on ants?

  • SoberPJ

    AZ .. that whole chapter is really enlightening. I am still incensed by unwittingly becoming a Buchmanite. The whole AA Coporate thing is really, really sleazy. Spiritually speaking of course.

  • JD

    JR, I’ve no idea how the things you read alter themselves so drastically by the time they settle in your head. Who is talking about AA in Texas in 1950? Did you pehaps have a Texas burger today and everything during your day afterwards is linked to Texas?

    Very peculiar, whatever the reason is behind this recurring difficulty of yours.

    “It never did really answer the question or the so called existence of AA in Texas in 1950.” …what does this sentence mean? That the existence of AA in Texas during the 1950s is in some dispute? That because you don’t believe that AA existed in Texas during the ’50s it somehow pertains to something that happened in San Luis Obispo during the ’80s?

    Just as a favor, could you please start making some sense?

  • tintop

    “Just as a favor, could you please start making some sense?”

    JD, you are too stupid to understand.

  • tintop

    “Very peculiar, whatever the reason is behind this recurring difficulty of yours

    Do not bother to try to understand, JD. You are too stupid\

    The village idiot again, in this video, show shows his stupidity

  • tintop

    We must make allowances for JD. he can’t help himself
    He cannot stop trying to piss on ants. Village idiots are like that

  • JD, I was just using the manipulative tactics of corporate AA to make a point about your post. I was commenting that you did not actually hear this story first hand and it has been manipulated into a whopper by steppers over the years and you are just repeating it.

    I used the bait and switch tactics of corporate AA to change the subject back to Jason Pool, 2011 Austin Texas, part of Travis County had his murder charge dismissed in a 2006 slaying outside of an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting after spending 5 years in jail. The reason? That is left up to up the of this post. It is very interesting.

  • JD

    Here ya go TT, see if you can get any of these right. Cheat if you must.

  • JD, have you taken this poll yet:

    When visiting social media web sites how do I maintain my anonymity?
    1. I might discuss AA or sobriety, but I never reveal I’m a member.
    2. I use separate accounts so that I can maintain anonymity while talking about AA
    3. I don’t care if I break my anonymity.

    They need your help and guidance, you should take the poll and leave a comment, so other people can follow in your foot steps.


  • JD

    We don’t do surveys in my group JR, and any that come in are tossed. The other decent groups I know of do the same. Nobody’s business, and we’re not concerned with anyone’s hot desires for hard numbers or responses.

  • tintop

    The ST village idiot learns about baseball.

  • tintop

    We don’t do surveys in my group JR, and any that come in are tossed. The other decent groups I know of do the same. Nobody’s business, and we’re not concerned with anyone’s hot desires for hard numbers or responses.

    No one cares what your groups do.

  • I like the comment “we’re not concerned with anyone’s hot desires for hard numbers or responses”. Of course you are not interested in “real” numbers. Your too busy telling everyone made up numbers on AA and its success rate to care about “real” numbers.

  • tintop

    Yes JRH, that quote does prove that JD has no interest in reality and a complete inability to understand it.

  • JD

    No JR, that’s again in your mind. If I’m forever busy telling people made up #s and quoting a phony success rate you should easily be able to find an example of me doing that. In this, the real universe as opposed to wherever it is that you’re seeing these things.

    You mind is definately not your friend, JR. Why not decide for a while to stop sharing what it’s telling you is so?

  • Your right JD. I just get real nervous when I hear people telling stories about Air Force pilots in a predominantly Muslim country where drinking is very frowned upon, who become Airline pilots in a predominantly Muslim country that doesn’t even have an AA office at the time. That is a very suspicious and totally unbelievable story used by over zealous AA members to LIE.

    This is compounded when AA members quote these stories as gospel and then go on to tell how because of AA, this Airline Pilot who would not be allowed in a cockpit because he was a member of AA in a predominantly Muslim county, then he became a Doctor in the US. Never mind the fact that if he ever mentions on the State Licensing exam in his state that he has been treated for Alcoholism in a 12 Step program, there is a very slim chance of him ever getting a license.

    I forget JD, what country did you tell us he started in? How much did you insist it was true? Does this story sound unbelievable? I will admit, at least you are toning it down a bit with your California story. Given you ability to BS in the past, do you think anyone really believes a thing you say?

  • tintop

    You mind is definately not your friend, JR. Why not decide for a while to stop sharing what it’s telling you is so?

    so says the village idiot, JD.
    You are far too stupid to put people down JD.

  • tintop

    a study of out resident idiot, JD

  • JD

    JR, this is past being bothersome. I understand it’s not your fault, but the efforts required to correct how you’ve retained information is not worth it, because it doesn’t seem to stick for long.

    Your head has yet again morphed what was actually said into something new and odd, something I know that you are excited about, but unfortunately is not what I explained to you after you didn’t retain it the first time.

    Just reread the post to get it all straight in your mind for the next 8 1/2 minutes. Repeat as needed. Make notes that you can refer back to after some hours have passed.

  • Hey, JD, if JR is bugging you and you don’t understand him, why do you keep responding to him? Tintop, too. I think I’ve asked you enough clear questions to keep you occupied more productively for a while. For some reason, you just flat out ignore them. The battles you choose say a lot about you, man.

  • JD

    ftg, you complain if I ignore dumb questions and you complain if I answer them.

    If anyone says you’re not consistent I’ll immediately jump to your defence.

  • Ben Franklin

    JD you ignore pointed questions when you cannot possibly explain them in a positive light. It is why I always bring up your son. You never explain it. You either invented your son to “qualify” yourself or you truly are a shitty parent. Why you thought you had to qualify yourself to us ants I’ll never know,but you brought it up. Your twaddle used to piss me off, but now I find it amusing. You make our points better than we can.

  • AnnaZed

    @JD [who tells us this heart warming story] ~ “…. it wouldn’t surprise me if AA still runs ads like that. A group I was part of kept a little ad running in a small newspaper, and the area groups and individuals would chip in each quarter. Never know when it might do some good.

    A guy I met was once on a running drunk and stopped by his house to rest up overnight, admitted by his pissed off spouse who had changed the locks. When he awoke and was going through her purse for some drinking money he pulled out a newspaper clipping familiar to some of us…’from this date forward I shall be responsible for no debts but my own’ that his wife had placed. He turned it over and glanced at the other side of his wife’s notice for a second which happened to be the AA ad.

    He traveled some miles, winding up at a hotel bar I used to drink at while pretending to listen to jazz recordings. There was a bank of wooden phone booths across from the entrance and though very drunk and having seen the # for a second he dialed AA up and began his sobriety. When I met him at a convention he’d passed 31 years, and that was an easy 25yrs ago.

    Pretty cool I knew the exact booths he called from. Just checked and the hotel is now a boutique hotel, no doubt the booths are long gone. Served their purpose though.”

    While I recognize that this conversation has devolved a bit I still think that the person that should be having an aha! moment is you. Do you realize that the person who told you this story, a famous apocryphal AA story that has many versions and that I myself am telling you that I have heard several iterations of (that can not all be true, that is not possible), was at 31 years sober lying to you? You know, taking someone else’s story, embroidering it a bit and making it his own (Wilson style); i.e. lying. Doesn’t that cause some seismic shifting in your firmament? Don’t you realize how many of the countless drunkalogs and God-shot stories that you have heard are just fabrications? What does that tell you about your fellowship of rigorous honesty?

    Maybe the real reason that you are here is because the scales are starting to fall from your eyes.

  • AnnaZed

    I am also interested in this:

    “…he pulled out a newspaper clipping familiar to some of us…’from this date forward I shall be responsible for no debts but my own’ that his wife had placed.”

    Why would that be familiar to you?

  • I would say that JD likes to make up stories about AA quite often as this shows. He then defends it as being true adamantly. This one is fabricated from a story that started in the 4th edition of the Big Book.

    JD says

    Tying the two together reminds me of a longtime member who flew for the Egyptian Airforce, then became a commercial pilot in the Middle East, then obtained his license to practice medicine in the States and later retired from that. Great, sharp little guy that everyone thought a lot of, he’d be about 26yrs sober now.
    February 23, 2011, 5:21 am

    1. Currently Egypt AA has a total of 2 meeting places and only 7 meetings a week with 5 being closed and 2 being open.

    2. Egypt is a predominantly Sunni Muslim country with Islam as its state religion.The percentage of the adherents of various religions is a controversial topic in Egypt, with different sources citing different figures. Around 90% are identified as Muslim.

    3. Muslims follow Islamic Law. Hadd crimes are crimes whose penalties were laid down by the Quran, and are considered to be “claims against God”,use of intoxicants (alcohol/drug use) is one of them.

    4. Egyptian Air force pilots attend the Egyptian Air Academy is Egypt’s military academy for Air Force officers, and was established in 1951. The pilot cadet is awarded the degree of bachelor of flying and flying sign in addition to the international commercial pilot permission.

    5. Medical Licenses in the US go by individual States. Here is a partial list of what they look for

    Someone is obviously not telling the truth. It must be one of the people telling the story. But which one? The one originally telling it, or the one repeating it?

  • JD

    Anna, it was familiar to me because for some years I reviewed legal notices often. It’s familiar to many AAs because sometimes we did things that made our spouses angry and fearful enough to post those. Surely you’ve lived long enough to see a few.

    Regarding if the guy lied or not, I believe it unlikely. He was the baby in a group of local longtime members, and these guys and a few gals saw him come in and knew his story by then as well as he did. Any one of them might have called him on the lie, and no alcoholic (new or old) likes to look bad.

    What’s also very possible is that he’s not the only member with a story like that. Those ads were (possibly still are) common all over, and being in the classified section there is always a back side to them. Doubt very much if he’s the only one who called off an ad, but I mentioned it because he and I had sort of crossed paths in that hotel lobby and bar a generation apart.

    Lastly, I’m more cynical than gullible and this guy was clearly to me an ordinary Joe, nothing sharp or shifty about him, and he was not on the make for an AA rep.

  • JD, I never complain when you don’t answer stupid questions. I always hope you’ll answer the serious ones (though I can see why this is not possible), and wonder why you spend all your time going around with people you find to be talking nonsense. See, this behavior is baffling to me because, when I think someone’s talking garbage, my mental ignore function kicks in. Why are you wasting your time?

    Anyway, I am unfamiliar with “from this date forward I shall be responsible for no debts but my own” notices. I actually just googled the phrase and the only result it returned was this comments section of Stinkin’ Thinkin’. Weird. So, was this something that people had published as a sort of divorce without divorce? How is it possible to do this and have it override a marriage contract? This is completely off topic, but I’m genuinely curious about it, and the internet doesn’t seem to know about it.

  • JD

    JR, concentrate now hard.

    Egypt is a Muslim country but not all of it’s citizens are Muslim. This guy happened to be from a Christian family, which changes nothing at all important. He could have as easily been from a Muslim family. Alcoholics drink even when their religion says no. Plenty of Mormon and JW drunks out there.

    He got sober after coming to the states and becoming a GP and practicing medicine for a while in CA. He was in a local 28 day spin-dry at the same time as a friend of mine, and the Doc came out of it and stayed sober and active in AA.

    Incidentally, the friend that was in there with the Doc drank some years after the spin dry, finally getting sober doing AA in 2004, at which point I met him.

    Earlier in life he was a drunk executive at a big industrial plant and one night found a worker drunk on the job. He wrestled his bottle away and had him fired. The worker went home and confessed it all to his nasty drunk wife and wound up getting sober the next year (’72). His nasty drunk wife sobered up 6 months later. He became my sponsor in ’83. Of course I’d heard my sponsor’s firing story and it was a mind-blower when my friend and I were driving home from a meeting and he started talking about working in the management there and finding a guy drunk at work one night…I couldn’t wait to get the two of them together again. He’d been responsible for putting a lot of the heat on my sponsor back then to get and stay sober, so indirectly he’d helped me and a ton of others.

    So, to recap…Egyptian Christian Doc was a fighter pilot flying for his country, became a commercial pilot flying the Middle Eastern routes (no I don’t know for which carrier), then moved to the states and studied medicine and set up practice as a GP, he got sober about 26yrs ago and has stayed a sober active AA since then. Dives a white ‘Vette and is losing his hair. Has a very brainy and absolute knockout babe Daughter.

    Fair warning, the next time vast parts of this or any other subject of mine become cloudy in your memory you’re on your own.

  • JD

    ftg, here’s a link. 3rd answer down by Mike Jacobs…

    “PUBLISH a “notice to creditors” in the legal columns of the local
    newspaper used for official notices, to the effect that “Effective
    1-2-03, I am no longer responsible for any person’s debts but my own”
    or some such — surely you’ve seen such notices from time to time (if
    you ever look at the legal-notices section of your local paper, that

  • Thanks, JD.

  • OK JD, I believe the story of the Fighter Pilot from Egypt. I will forget that the regime that he was under at the time he was a pilot was extremely Muslim orientated and probably would have kicked him out if it was found out that he was drinking alcohol and making “claims against God” per thier faith. He could have been part of the 5% of Egyptians who are Christian (Where have I heard that 5% thing before when talking about AA?).

    The regime he was a pilot under: Muhammad Anwar Al Sadat was President of Egypt from October 15,1970 to October 6,1981 when he was assassinated by fundamentalist army officers. He also led Egypt in the October War of 1973 (Yom Kippur War) to liberate Egyptian territory occupied by Israel and was a devout Muslim practicing Sunni Islam.

    I was wrong, your story makes complete sense.

  • The dangers of repeating or embellishing stories is very dangerous and can actually lead to the death penalty. In Mobile, Alabama, Jamie Kellam Letson doing the 9th Step with her Sponsor around 2008 wrote an amends letter to Katherine Foster who was killed on Feb. 21, 1980 at the University of South Alabama to read over her grave. In the letter she admits to killing Ms. Foster. She now claims that the story was made up as a way to appease her sponsor and was a complete fabrication.

  • AntiDenial

    JR-I read the article-but what ended up being the verdict?

  • SoberPJ

    I am curious to know what kind of doctor? Hey doc, what’s your background? Well, I was a drunk fighter pilot in Egypt and then I was a drunk commercial pilot and then I became a doctor of medicine. Easy really, when you know how to spin a yarn that nobody can ever confirm. I also find it highly improbable.

    But, it makes a great AA story. In fact, that is all AA has is stories. It has no statistics, contains no reason or logic, and has direct lies and manipulation in its foundation. Good AA’s are good storytellers. Initially they are simple stories, but they grow in supportive detail and grandiosity. The more detailed and grandious, the better. ” It was a cold sunny morning in November, the 26th of 19 hundred and 72. I had just finished a couple of undercooked eggs, over medium, and some cold dry toast, we were out of butter, when I stepped outside to go feed the goats, one of them had pink eye and needed antibiotics, and sure enough the hand of gawd was working in my life when a 747 crashed right there in my yard. The pilot was an Egyptian ex-fighter pilot that had just became a commercial airline pilot and he was thinking about becoming a doctoro and going to AA and I thought it would be a good idea if I went to AA too, because the wife was a real nag and wanted me to stop killing myself eith booze. So, I went down to the hotel in town, on fifth and main by the post office drop off station that is only open for 2 hours on Saturday, and walked in and wouldn’t you know it, there was a small scrap of paper on the floor with the number of the local AA office. It was right next to the phone booth and I found a dime next to one of the phones. I must be so special to have all those things happen in the specific sequence they did because if it weren’t for the crashed 747 with the Egyptian fighter pilot that wanted to go to AA and that slip of paper and the phone booths and the dime in the lobby and the goat with pink eye, I never would have gotten sober. ” Stories, its all about the stories. Not logic or reason or statistics or real honesty. Stories.

  • This is a perfect example:

    If one story is an obvious fabrication, wouldn’t that call the rest into question? Is it justifiable to make shit up or spread AA myths (“I knew a guy…”) in the interest of the greater truth? If the stories turn out to be fabrications, then what is the greater truth?

  • What Urban Legends are made of “Coming to a Church Basement in your area soon!”. A remake of the story in the 4th edition of the cult classic “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Story of How More Than One Hundred Men Have Recovered From Alcoholism” (the author forgot to tell everyone that he knows for a fact only 40 recovered and even that is questionable, but he always rounded up)

  • Ben Franklin

    Ah yes FTG, my favorite story:
    Me Injun. Me drinkum firewater. Me fall down. Me see sunlight of spirit in AA. AA don’t tell tall tales. AA not racist either.

  • I am truly impressed that the Egyptian Air Force Pilot made it as far as he did. He is truly a pillar of “Rigorous Honesty” in AA. In order to make where he is today he had to go through the following which is absolutely amazing. His story should be printed in the “Grapevine” for all to enjoy. He really went through a lot to get to AA.

    In 1967 Egypt lost lost over 300 of their 420 combat aircraft during the Arab-Israeli War, and 100 of their 350 qualified combat pilots leaving only 250 pilots. The government later tried and imprisoned the commander of the air force and a few other officers and purged many other senior officers.

  • AnnaZed

    Speaking of tall stories page S11 of this PDF of AAs 2007 Service Manual contains Wilson’s 1955 (get re-write!) white-washed version of his theft of the copyright for the book Alcoholics Anonymous. It’s very entertaining. Typed by the cheerful, likeable and comely Ruth Hock.

    • MA

      Interesting, Anna. That looks like Dick B style of history telling.

  • JRH, The Egyptian pilot is JD’s son. He’s also the personal physician, chauffeur, and fencing partner of the Duchess of Figgy Pudding. You can find them every afternoon enjoying a leisurely tea in the hovercraft as they tour the Great Tulip Sea, that is when they are not jetting off to the 1950s on a 12 step call at some fleabag flophouse in Detroit. Get your facts right.

  • MikeAugustine

    Egyptian air force. Hmmm. Let’s enforce a no fly zone on that whopper.

  • Lucy

    Don C, a trial lawyer whom I believe is dead now, told the story of his first AA meeting in Beverly Hills. He sat listening to everyone tell their stories, and, when it came to him, he made up a long story “deep with pathos, having a magical turning point, and ending on a high and hopeful note” like the others had told. He waited for the group to react, and, to his surprise, he was asked by a stranger to speak at a big group the next night.

    Don stopped drinking in 1956, about 5 years after becoming a regular SoCal circuit speaker. He went on to become a judge and said that his primary talent became not believing his own bullshit. He was not a big fan of mainstream AA, and he seldom went to meetings other than by request. He said that AA stories were like a long game of Gossip, where the first part was a lie and things went downhill from there.

    I think I probably stayed in AA another 12 years after I first heard him speak, mainly because I hoped I would find another person as cynical as he was. I don’t know that I ever did.

  • tintop

    I know a guy who tried to drink himself to death.

    Every day, from sun up to sun down, he drank five quarts of Oh be joyful.
    He did this every day for 68 years. He started drinking – he was born to it, you see – at the age of 4.

    At the tender age of 72, he quit. He went to a meeting of the oddfellows and was saved. he is now 109. He went to college, and earned BA, MA and PHD within four years. And became a professor of Gujarati at the age of 76.

    It is true. I swear it. on my Manual of tractor maintenance.

  • tintop, I think that story actually starts like this: “I know a guy who used to drink himself to death every day.”

  • tintop

    It is a true story!!

  • BusBozo

    Thanks for the link to the “story” of the publishing of the book. I only read a page and half before chucking it, as I had read it before. One thing that made me lol was Bill talking about the desperate straights they were in, and that by golly Hank P even had to get a JOB. One can imagine Bill recoiling as he dictated to the lovely Ruth.

  • SoberPJ

    Yep, a job.. because the plan was to get rich off the book. The book would sell for $51 today due to inflation. It was all about selling a book so expensive and without value they had to use thick paper to make it look like it actually had something in it. It was over-priced deceit right from the beginning. It was a scam then, and its a scam now. Every time someone says Big Book, they probably have no idea it is the basis of a marketing ploy of flatout deceit…. in a rigorously honest program mind you.. It’s flippin shameful.

  • I threw my Big BOOK in trash if I had willing to go to any length I would have flushed it Thats why they used thick paper In it so it was hard to flush.

  • Speaking of the dangers that the false statements made by AA and its members cause. I have just remembered about a book that is required reading in many MBA classes called “How False Statements are Undermining America: From Martha Stewart to Bernie Madoff” by Robert B. Stewart. I wonder if he knows the stories behind AA and how they manipulate people with them. It would be nice if MBA students started to research this for thier thesis. The more MBA students looking for a Thesis topic and choosing to studying the roots of AA, and the money being made from it that is hidden in not-for-profit corporations, sober houses, rehab centers, kickbacks to corrupt Judges such as Judge Ciavarella in Luzerne County Pennsylvania, the better.

  • Another murder confession being covered up by AA members for 2 1/2 years. This is an old one, but how many are out there we don’t know about?

    WHITE PLAINS, NY – November 3, 1994

    “…… more than a half-dozen members of Alcoholics Anonymous testified under subpoena that Mr. Cox confessed to them that he thought he had committed the killings during a drunken blackout. ”

    “Some group members kept Mr. Cox’s confidence for as long as two and a half years without going to the police, but one ultimately notified the authorities. Mr. Cox was arrested four and a half years after the murders. ”

    “The Truth is out There”

  • This is an interesting case of a murder that happened out side of an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting in New Bedford, Mass on Oct. 21, 2010, outside a church on Purchase Street. Jonathan Keith Niemic, 22, of 127 Hawthorn St. was arrested for the death of Michael Correia shortly after he stabbed him. When doing a search for specifics on this incident many have dead links and the story seems to have been pulled. There are a few sites that are talking about the link to an AA meeting, but they are heavily edited with many posts removed.

  • Bakerview, WA Monday, Nov. 23, 2009
    James Kevin Schultea, 45 was arrested for the murder of Rubey A. Erickson, 41 in a wooded area across from Bakerview Square.

    “James Kevin Schultea, 45, told police he killed Erickson by wrapping a belt around her neck and strangling her while she slept, according to a police report Whatcom County Prosecutor Dave McEachran read at Schultea’s first appearance in Superior Court Wednesday.”

    “He told detectives that he met Erickson at about 2:30 p.m. Monday and knew her from attending an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting in 2008.”

    The the time of his arrest Schultea has been on community supervision through the DOC.

    “In 2006, Schultea was sentenced to three months of jail alternatives for setting fire to a transient woman’s belongings in a camp in the 4400 block of Meridian Street.

    In 2007, Schultea was sentenced to a year in prison for assaulting a homeless man and burning down his tent.”

    Read more:

  • Columbia, SC Acoa Club, April 2009 Kayson – Helms, 18

    “Columbia Police say Helms walked into the meeting at 2015 College Street, the Acoa Club, at 11 p.m. Saturday night with a gun and demanded whatever those at the center had and was shot.”

    “police say a person with a concealed weapons permit shot the man in his chest.”

    This is the second case I have found where an AA member took his gun to an AA meeting. It is true that the 18 year old had one also. It is not said how he knew about the AA meeting or why he went there.

  • THE DANGER OF TEENS hanging around AA members. I wasn’t too sure where to put this, but it is disappearing off the web. It is part of two cases where the confidentiality of AA Sponsor confidentiality is challenged by the courts. This should be remembered and it isn’t.

    “In 1990, a Bangor, Maine jury convicted Ronald Boobar, Jr. of the murder of fourteen year old Becky Pelky. Boobar, an alcoholic, had attended Alcoholics Anonymous (hereinafter “AA”) meetings before Pelky’s November 1988 death.”

    “In November 1988, Ronald Boobar, an alcoholic and drug addict, and Thomas Dembowsky, a friend of Boobar, picked up three teenage girls in a Bangor, Maine bar.4 One of the three was fourteen year old Rebecca “Becky” Pelky. Boobar, Dembowsky, and the three girls left the bar and cruised the town in Boobar’s car.”

    “On November 9, 1988, two pedestrians found Becky Pelky’s body lying in the woods in Hermon, Maine.5 A medical examiner determined that she had been strangled with a nylon rope about five to ten days before her body was discovered.”

    by Reed, Thomas J;content

  • This is a tragic story of Robert Darrell Strickland, a Sober House manager in CENTRALIA, Washington using Narcotics Anonymous (NA) meetings to meet his victims in 2008 that is also being quickly forgotten.

    Robert Darrell Strickland lived and managed the Lighthouse Community Home for recovering alcoholics and drug addicts at 1321 Crescent Ave. He used his contacts in NA meetings to meet and molest two 15 year old boys. He also appears to have been doing it again when they went to arrest him and they found another 17 year old boy hiding in his closet. Strickland gained the trust of his victims who he met who were dealing with problems about drugs and alcohol. He used this to lure his victims to his Sober House.

    This should be a warning to anyone who thinks that NA is a good place for your child to hang out.

    Read more at:

  • Sally

    have a very interesting story here. You don’t know until the end (it’s kind of long) but the young lady (that looks like a child), Claudia Kraft, commits suicide in the end.

    A few interesting quotes from the article:

    Torn between addiction and God, Kraft sought guidance from swamis, 12-step programs and, finally, from what seemed like the perfect employer.

    A charismatic man who synthesized what he learned from Alcoholics Anonymous into a hypnotic blend of New Age bromides, Lamb recruited dozens of people like Claudia to work promoting his music and his business.

    Last May, when Lamb pleaded no contest to one count of misdemeanor statutory rape and was sentenced to 45 days in jail–in exchange for having the other 59 counts dropped–his closest followers were shaken.

    In the end, it left some with broken lives and a long process of sorting through a web of betrayal, confusion, grief and bitterness.

    CLAUDIA HAD CHRONICLED her thoughts, dreams and feelings since she was a child. Her sprawling longhand paints a portrait of a troubled young woman who believed she had finally found God in the flesh.

    Describing himself to potential followers, Lamb would regale them with tales of his wilder youth. Handsome and charismatic, Lamb never lacked for girlfriends. Hard living and substance abuse pushed him to find help with Alcoholics Anonymous. It was by working through the 12 steps of recovery, Lamb would tell others, that he found God.

    The sponsor relationship can be both gratifying and problematic. In its purest form, it is merely one member leading another through the process of working the 12 steps. Yet because it places people together through the sharing of intimacies–with a power imbalance–it can be a relationship potentially ripe for abuse.

    Meachen pauses. “It’s really hard to talk about who she was, because Claudia didn’t ‘have’ Claudia at all,” she finally says. “She gave up her soul for someone else.”

    She clearly struggled with a love for Gary that was both spiritual and carnal. “It’s really a test for me to remain nonphysical,” she writes in one entry. “And yet it’s not at all. Our love is of a higher nature.”

    At least a half-dozen people involved in the organization describe similar experiences. As new acolytes got involved, they became convinced they were involved in a higher calling. They were constantly stroked and made to feel special.

    As one former member who requested anonymity recalled, “They were encouraged not to have contact with ‘normies’–people outside the group were not ‘spiritual’ enough or ‘clean’ enough.”

    But Claudia would shrink beneath Adrienne’s wrath over and over, no matter how many lines she drew. The alternative could be expulsion–and being ostracized by Lamb and the group was the worst fate of all.

    “Being pushed out by him meant to be pushed out by God,” Sue Meachen says. “All your joy was about being loved and accepted by this person.”

    Claudia withstood working long hours, verbal abuse, living with people she did not want to live with and baby-sitting children she did not want to take care of–anything was preferable to losing Gary.

    Sometime early Monday Sept. 7, Claudia hanged herself from the exposed beams in her home near the ocean.

    I’m speechless.

  • MikeAugustine

    Sally, this pattern is common in AA. A charming predator takes advantage of emotionally vulnerable people in order to satisfy their need for sex, money and power. That’s why sites like ST are so valuable. Many of us here have either been victims ourselves or have witnessed such things. AA can no longer hide behind the folksy image formed in the Saturday Evening Post era. The age of the Internet is with us. And the 1st Amendment is still alive. Thank God.

  • Sally


    It seems all too common, as you said. What gets me the most, red in the face – tearfully angry, is that AA coorporate just doesn’t care. They are too greedy, too bothered by promotion and saving their ass, to help prevent this or help members that get harmed. A simple warning (pamphlets, laminated readings at the start of meetings) and stronger “suggestions” about sponsorship is a START. Not good enough, but a start! Fuck their gay traditions – people are being harmed emotionally and mentally, physically, spiritually, the list goes on and on.

    “The age of the Internet is with us. And the 1st Amendment is still alive. Thank God.” Cheers!


  • Jonny Quest


    Fuck their gay traditions? We do get rowdy at times, but we don’t want to be giving people the impression that we’re running a middle school cafeteria here…

  • Sally

    Hi Jonny,

    It seemed obvious to me that my choice of the word “gay” was used contextually, that it was used to mean silly, stupid, or goofy – and nothing else. I occasionally use a word or two that may seem harsh but are not intentionally meant to be derogatory.

    Please note that I consider myself passionate, not overly rowdy. I never meant to disrespect anyone or hurt anyone personally by my choice of words.

    That being said, I’ll respectably try to tone it down.

    Peace, Sally

  • JD

    Something to be cautious of Sally. I mentioned my first sponsor was a gay man and for that ftg pulled an post which was coincidentally critical of some specifics regarding Stanton’s pattern of dishonesty in submitting insurance reimbusement claims for treatment of the condition he is emphatic does not exist, and Steven Slate (sponsor-for-hire) who’s qualifications for taking 8 of your phone calls for $2500 are the weeks he dried out in a Narconon-wannabee program.

    So if any gay men are critically important in your life for uniformly giving their time and help unselfishly to you (with unlimited calling privleges for free unlike Coach Stevie) so you could alter your destructive course, better keep it to yourself here.

    Unless your the kind of person who refer to gay men as poofters. Then your complete lack of respect then makes it perfectly ok here.

    Yeah, it does seem like you’ve fallen down the rabbit hole here often. Wait until the Mad Hatter and the Queen of Hearts try their hands at logic, that can be a hoot.

    We hold untrained Coach Stevie in high esteem here because he’s not sponsoring people by sharing his experience without charge regarding what’s worked well, he’s instead ripping them off hugely and giving advice based on the principles of what he learned from the imitation Scientology/Narconon spin-dry. But he says it’s ok because the fools made the decision to pay him for that. Completly unlike something a con man would say to justify his thievery.

    Enjoy Wonderland, where logic is whimsical and often eats itself for breakfast. Hope I didn’t use too many words in a row for you this time.

  • Jonny Quest

    @Sally: No worries.

  • SoberPJ

    Ya know, we don’t tolerate the kind of shit JD dishes out here, so why do we tolerate him? I vote for a time out. He is far too disruptive and insultive. Who else do we let come on here and insult people on the blog? Really? If I were to insult people on this blog the way he does and as often, you’d have my ass. He does not deserve a pass and should simply be shut up until he learns some manners.

  • Sally


    AA sponsorship is quite the opposite and it is completely selfish.

    I sense you trying to pull me onto your side, and you’re even trying to sponsor me by offering bad suggestions based upon an entirely different experience that you had when posting on ST (responses that you entirely and most likely purposely, misconstrued).

  • Sally

    SoberPJ, I agree.

  • SoberPJ

    I realize that JD’s value to this blog is to show the psychotic nature of long time fundamentalist AA members, but his utility in that regard has to be balanced with the harm he may do to this community. How many people are lurking here and would like to post, but they don’t want to endure the wrath of that all-too-familiar, “how’s that workin for ya” attitude of crusty AA people? JD is clearly psychotic. In some posts he plays nice and waxes poetic about the wonderful adventures of sobriety and his family and friends. In the very next post, he can be vitriolic, deliberately inciting, insulting and downright mean. That is a mental problem in action. There is an AA lunatic allowed to roam freely on this blog to drive people away and keep others from participating and he knows exactly how to do that. He has years of experience of human behavior in the rooms af AA. A cloistered test environment to develop manipulation techniques on the most needy and desperate people in society. He should not be allowed to apply those manipulation techniques here. They may be transparent to most of us here, but they may not be to those that are unaccustomed to their use. And, I’m tired of watching him abuse the people on here. Let him go piss on somebody else for a while.

  • JD

    I’m curious PJ, which part of that post got to you to this degree? All of the points in it are factual and true, so was it simply the shock of seeing them spelled out plainly? If so, that speaks well of you, that when things are laid out plainly they can still get through.

    Sometimes when people think things are one way, and then information comes along that contradicts their closely held beliefs their initial response is to become uncomfortable and defensive.

    You probably thought Stanton was on the level and posessed some degree of personal integrity and Coach Stevie was at least minimally trained and wasn’t pushing the Scientology/Narconon influenced program. Since Scientology is not held in high regard here, the logic of the site owners in promoting the Coach’s business probably made your head hurt. Lashing out at me for telling you the truth makes perfect sense.

    All good signs, PJ. If you can continue listening through the pain there may be hope for you.

  • How many people have you helped to thoroughly follow the path to jails, institutions and death? Your program doesn’t work and it has given you OCD.

  • SoberPJ

    JD, you are becoming incoherent. At times you may offer something to consider. However, your delivery is abusive. in short, you are a prick. There is no other area of my life where I have to regularly deal with egotistical, demeaning pricks like you. None. No one on this blog should have to deal with you either or be exposed to your caustic personality. You serve a purpose here and you are stunningly good at upholding your purpose. But, I am growing weary of your abuse and there are only two avenues of remedy. One avenue I can control, the other, I can only attempt to influence. In the first case, you will only be out of my life. In the second, you will also be out of the lives of others on this blog. I prefer the second option so others don’t have to deal with you either. But, its not my blog. If it were mine, your demeaning, caustic, disruptive, arrogant ass would have been gone long ago.

  • JD

    Your comments are minimally interesting in one aspect PJ, and because of that are deserving of slight examination for the enlightenment of those who may not be familiar with this technique of manipulating others.

    You want someone else to do something, so by feigning distress and weakness you intice them to be your rescuer and intimate they are powerful for doing so and that they can expect your gratitude. Probably worked well for you at different points in your life, using the good impulse many have to protect those in distress.

    Here you choose to read only what you choose to read, and people understand that. I doubt if you will control the actions of anyone here in this fashion, but I could be wrong given the track record of censorship here.

    Now, if I began calling people ‘a prick, an ass, psychotic, mean, lunatic’ when they were engaged in a civil discussion you might have a point, especially with ftg’s sporadic and selective sensitivity toward anything that casts aspersions on another’s mental state. I refrain from doing so in deference to her clear instructions. I’d as soon do that as try to manipulate the ‘Rescue Ranger’ trait in others to get my desired way.

    Way too dishonest a tactic for anyone possessing much self-respect.

  • SoberPJ

    Fascinating analysis. And it ends with subtle abuse. I lack honesty and self-respect. You simply can not help yourself, can you? It is an uncontrollable urge to belittle and demean others. You are programmed. How bizarre. How sad.

  • hulahoop

    You want someone else to do something, so by feigning distress and weakness you intice them to be your rescuer and intimate they are powerful for doing so and that they can expect your gratitude. Probably worked well for you at different points in your life, using the good impulse many have to protect those in distress.

    Interesting…I saw the described behavior displayed at meetings a lot. Especially that “good” impulse many have to protect those in distress.

  • Sally

    50 years-plus for Calif. man who shot AA sponsor,4670,AAKiller,00.html

    LONG BEACH, Calif. — A California man has been sentenced to 50 years to life in prison for shooting to death his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor at a meeting.

    Jurors in Long Beach convicted Scott Gordon Reynolds of first-degree murder in the slaying of 33-year-old Uriel Noriega.

    The 29-year-old Reynolds was sentenced Thursday. He testified he snapped after Noriega told other members at an AA meeting two years ago that Reynolds is gay. It’s a secret confided by Reynolds to only his mother and AA sponsor.

    Reynolds claimed he brought the weapon to the meeting at a church because he planned to commit suicide in front of fellow AA members. But prosecutor Patrick O’Crowley says that motive was never substantiated during the trial for Reynolds.

  • Sally

    Sadly two people lost their lives in the above story. One was killed and another sent to prison for practically the rest of his life. If there was accountability perhaps Reynolds could have made an official complaint and Noriega would have been properly reprimanded. If Noriegra was an educated professional he would be able to see how damaging his divulging of secrets could be. If he was still immorally incompetent then maybe a fear of losing his license or being kicked out of the program would keep him from abusing his role as a sponsor.

    The following is a quote from Laurie and typical response by an AA member and thumper:

    “Very tragic. Its’ hard to know what people will do in the grip of alcoholic insanity. The sponsor was clearly in error, but nobody gets perfect in this program.
    Obviously, the shooter wasn’t working the program or maybe taking his meds.
    I’ve heard and experienced many tragedies around AA and the group suffers as much as anybody. It’s not a magic wand to fix us, we’ve got to work this thing; top priority or, as in this case, everything goes away.
    I also think the Gay hatred fostered by the right wing has alot to do with this. I’ve noticed myself how people’s attitudes have changed towards us in the last 8 years.
    I’m sad about this. I hope some people learn a very important lesson here.”

  • Jonny Quest

    I have observed some of JD’s posts, and he seems to know just enough about the non-AA approaches to try and discredit them.

    In Jack Trimpey’s case, he knew enough about AVRT to poke fun at it, and previously paraphrased from the AVRT blog site, which is dedicated to Trimpey’s political rants from his latest book, which I too have criticized elsewhere. See, for example, this thread:

    Here we see him using the suggestion that Baldwin Research Institute is a Narconon wannabe. I have read many blog entries saying that the Baldwin Research Institute is a front for Narconon, much as I have read on blogs that Jack Trimpey has had “multiple DUIs and such” and “killed two people drunk driving.” (NOT TRUE).

    I’m not too familiar with the St. Jude Retreat House, where Steven Slate worked, or the Baldwin Research Institute, but I have read Steven Slate’s site in the past.

    I am in no way endorsing Steven Slate’s methods or those of St. Jude, but given JD’s track record, I would prefer a link or reference to back up his claim.

    JD? Can you direct us somewhere where we can verify that Steven Slate / St. Jude is an “imitation Scientology/Narconon spin-dry”?

    There is this article from Steven Slate on his site:

    Fake Recovery Alternatives: New Face of Recovery – Narconon – Scientology

    Doesn’t sound like he’s advocating Narconon…

    There is also this from the St. Jude Retreats FAQ:

    Is St. Jude’s or Baldwin Research Institute, Inc. affiliated with Narconon or Scientology?

  • JD

    JQ, Coach Stevie didn’t know that the treatment program he attended as a patient to obtain his vast and valuable knowledge of alcoholism based their program on Narconon until after he’d set up ‘practice’. His understanding up to that point was that it was just a terrific program that had a truly incredible success rate.

    He later found that when setting up the Baldwin program the bright lights in charge modeled it after a Scientology front, and since these Wunderkinde planned to run a clone operation they felt completely justified in adopting and advertising the claims for recovery percentages that the Scientology creative writing department thought up. It couldn’t be more hilarious.

    Ask the Coach, he’ll bear me out if you pin him down. Obviously it’s not his favorite subject, so expect some hedging, but as I’ve described it is the way it is.

    Funnier still is to read the justified trashing of Narconon in various posts here and then look over at the Clean Slate Addiction link on the list of Approved Recovery Moneymachines. ST is completely against Scientology beliefs and practices, but directly supports people undergoing their brand of recovery.

    Cute stuff, eh? Later this year around the end of November I’ll point out something far funnier than the Coach and the hypocricy of ST’s reccomendation if I still feel the same about it as I do now. It’s like 10 times as funny, but for some good reasons I’ll be the only one laughing about it until then.

  • JD, Scientology under the guise of Narconon advocates the use of hours of sitting in 150 degree saunas and the mega dosing of up to 5,000 mg of niacin (which by the way Bill Wilson was also looking at). Both of these practices are extremely dangerous on the weakened liver and immune system of a person recovering from addiction.

    It appears that you are attempting to use projection of Narconon on the other programs in an attempt to discredit them again. Do you think this is due to the OCD complex you have with chanting the words of the prophet Bill Wilson?

  • causeandeffect

    Freedom of speech is a great ideal to uphold, but one can be sued for libel, which is what JD constantly does.

    I’m with SPJ on this. While I personally find his attacks on me humorous in their absurdity, others will be intimidated by them and we may be missing out on some very interesting points of view.

    JQ, you’re correct. JD is one of many steppers who is willing to say absolutely anything to discredit alternatives to AA. No lie is too outrageous. And once they have done so, the accusation is out there on the web, and unfortunately some people will believe it only because they have seen it in writing and believe it, mostly, because it is what they want to believe.

  • Jonny Quest

    JD: “Coach Stevie didn’t know that the treatment program he attended as a patient to obtain his vast and valuable knowledge of alcoholism based their program on Narconon until after he’d set up ‘practice’… Ask the Coach, he’ll bear me out if you pin him down. Obviously it’s not his favorite subject, so expect some hedging, but as I’ve described it is the way it is.”

    OK, I can fathom that this scenario having happened – BUT, AGAIN – can you provide some info from somewhere? Anywhere? Point us in the right direction?

    All I found was blog entries from anonymous posters. Steven Slate? You out there? Care to chime in?

    JD: ” Later this year around the end of November I’ll point out something far funnier than the Coach and the hypocricy of ST’s reccomendation if I still feel the same about it as I do now. It’s like 10 times as funny, but for some good reasons I’ll be the only one laughing about it until then.”

    Why not now?

  • Sorry, I just deleted a comment I made in response to JD. I just yelled at him for not accepting my apology, but then I re-read my comment and realize that while I acknowledged that I had jumped the gun, I didn’t exactly apologize to him.

    The fact is that I’m sorry I deleted the comment he made with reference to his sponsor. The objection was to his calling him “some little gay guy,” which others found offensive and perceived to be a slur. There was absolutely no ulterior motive regarding criticism of Stanton. I don’t censor people’s opinions, ever. JD slagged on Stanton before and after that comment and I never censor him for that. He criticizes him every chance he gets and I never censor it. I don’t censor opinions.

    At the time, I was burning out, fielding some high drama on the blog and also trying to get something done in my real life. I acted first and thought better of it almost immediately. It was clear to me that he didn’t mean it as a slur, and I’m sorry I deleted it. I had no ulterior motive for doing so. It was careless. It was a mistake to do it. But once it was done, I couldn’t get it back.

    So, JD: I’m sorry I deleted your comment.

    And the “poofter” thing is a reference to a Monty Python skit. I guess JD’s more of a Masterpiece Theater type.

  • Jonny Quest

    For what it’s worth, and I will grant I haven’t been here long, friendthegirl has not given me the impression that she is out to withhold or suppress any criticism of the non-12-Step approaches.

    For one, even though it was quite clear to me that she is a Stanton Peele fan, she has not deleted any of my posts questioning some of his basic assumptions.

    For another, I asked her to post a link to the ARID Site under the “Recovery Resources” bookmarks on ST, which she did.

    Mark D. Baum (“Dr. Bomb”) from the ARID site has some very good information critical of the 12-Step approach, but he also criticizes the entire RGM/ATI, Stanton Peele included.

    He even has some bones to pick with Agent Orange from the Orange Papers, which most would agree is a rallying call for the Anti-12-Step movement.

    From what I’ve seen thus far, and comparing this to what the 12-Step “program neutral” moderators on other forums do, I would say she’s pretty liberal.

    She’s also correct about the “poofter” thing being from Monty Python – I was not offended.

  • Does anyone know what happened when Mark D Baum read out his valedictory piece to the AA group?

  • Jonny Quest

    Primrose: “Does anyone know what happened when Mark D Baum read out his valedictory piece to the AA group?”

    Mark D. Baum’s Five Year Coin Acceptance Speech:

    I don’t think he ever wrote a full follow-up article as promised, but he did write something. Here is an excerpt:

    “Hello. My real name is Mark D. Baum and I am the Editor of The ARID Site. I was formerly a problem drinker years ago and, for maybe a few months somewhere between the Summer of 2003 and the end of 2004, I used to be a Real Alcoholic in A.A. A Real Alcoholic is nothing but a euphemism for being a True Believer in Bill’n’Bob’s harmful dogmatic pro-addiction nonsense.

    Since the Summer of 2007 I decided to do something no cowardly SCAAAMer could comprehend or even do for that matter: To return to the rooms and observe. And I wound up becoming a member of a Home Group and then becoming its Treasurer.

    Today all of that will change. I decided to out myself and revealed in front of the whole room that I quit without any of Bill’n’Bob’s nonsense. Oh, and I received my Five-Year Coin as well.

    While I didn’t get a chance to deliver the whole speech (I only wanted to focus upon a few select passages from it in the end detailing my own decision to quit and even that, without focusing on my criticism of William Griffith Wilson and just detailing my quitting), it was enough for them to get really pissed. So pissed, in fact, that the poor sots didn’t have the courage to let me sign the greeting card for the speaker, not to mention tearing up printed copies of the full uncensored speech without examining its full contents that I placed around the room after the meeting. Oh, such a display of serenity!”

  • Jonny, When JD first landed here, his comments were so belligerent and poorly written compared to his current comments, that some people here suspect that there are more than one person behind the JD persona (I think so too, but I suspect they inhabit the same body and argue amongst themselves). Here are some comments from his first few days around here.

    Check out his first comment ever on ST:

    sorry victims, try harder to get over it someday. spending so many years going after people staying sober in AA is only rational if you need a villian for staying sick. AA must be bad, has to be absolutely terrible in all respects for your fucked up lifes to make sense. eh, Gunther?

    if it were not, and people were actually staying sober their lifetimes because they are willing to do what you refuse to do, well that would make you a total fool to insist on remaining a nut case, whining about the evil AAs. it must be just awful, and the people involved have to be scum, especially and particularly the ones with decades of comfortable sobriety.

    keep up the babytalk victims, as if that might be a solution to your dispair. and stay the hell away from AA. makes me ill to read how uniformly are drawn repeatedly to meetings. if you insist on being injured by listening to your betters, then you get no pity for the self-inflicted injury. better for all concerned if you stay angry and sick somewhere else alone or fanning each other’s anger between drunks.

    get a different hobby, or if you prefer to continue to stay the way you are, then I wish you a loooong lifetime.

    Does that sound like the same person to you?

    Here he is trying to embarrass someone on the blog. He never revealed who this was, by the way:

    Well here’s a secret for inquiring minds…

    ” I’ve been an AA member for over 22 years now.” Any guesses which rabid ST claimed that? You won’t read it here, because he prefers you believe otherwise.

    Does that make him a liar here, or a liar there? My guess is any of you who isn’t bleeding from the eyes on hangover mornings is also a secret AA member, just like our friend here.

    If you’re whining about AA here and still slinking into the back rows of meetings hoping you’ll magically stay sober like the real AAs do, then you’re as hypocritical as this bozo’s example. Just do everyone concerned a favor and stay away until you hurt enough to take 12 steps. No reason until then to waste the air you take up in meetings, hoping.

    It’s not going to ever happen for you.

    Funny to see all the postings here about the silly things drunks do, written for silly drunks who think they’re immune to doing silly things while drunk.

    “I’ve been an AA member for over 22 years now.” HA!

    And here he is trying to make a stink out of Ken Ragge’s drinking habits (he isn’t abstinent, and makes no bones about the fact that he has a few drinks a year — nothing to get all hopped up about). I’m not sure why he’d think anyone here would give a shit what Ragge does:

    Civil discourse? That’s a hoot. If you have any shred of honesty can you call what’s been posted here regarding AAs civil? You hypersensitive whiny losers don’t care for it much when it’s force fed back to you in the same manner.

    And I hear one of your most respected and well loved antis is now back on the sauce. He’s the guy that’s been MIA for 4 day periods here and there…nothing new, nothing surprising…and he’s still writing and your still buying the crap. Wet drunks telling wet drunks how to keep hating and stay sick. Delusional, sad, and ultimately suicidal.

    Probably for the best, all ’round. Keep sucking on the resentment pipe, losers.


    Ah Ken, Ken, Ken….could it be that Ken is doing a little chippie drinking? That would be something of note within the anti community, wouldn’t it? And, it would certainly let people in the anti cause down if it got around that a stalwart know-it-all like Ken has begun tossing a few back. In a powerful way, of course.

    It probably did prove to be a solution to his Dry Drunk problem.

    Would someone please check and then let everyone else know the sad news?

    Just an aside, but notice how he called Ragge a dry drunk? This is JD earlier this month, regarding the term “dry drunk”:

    Though hardly ever brought up by AAs, this is a term non-AAs can’t seem to leave alone. I’ve wondered why on occasion.


    So, when he says he’s laughing about something that he’ll reveal sometime in November, you can bet that he’s getting his rocks off anticipating what he perceives to be someone’s impeding humiliation. He may be trying to portray himself as an upstanding, righteous, cosmopolitan gentleman with an enormous and enviable life, but anyone who remembers the first impression he made around here wouldn’t wonder twice about what this guy is salivating about.

  • MA

    There you go again, FTG. You’re quoting JD completely out of context.

    Taken in the proper context, his words come across as spiritually uplifting, empathetic and wise. Quit picking picking on this guy!

  • JD

    Thanks for that ftg. Tom is one of the most important people in my life, and that he might have been disrespected is the sole thing that’s ever stung me here.

    He died of AIDS sober in his late 30’s, not sure if anyone else other than he could have gotten through to me, and I didn’t make that easy.

    Aren’t amends great? I feel so close to you now.

  • Jonny Quest

    Since this has inadvertently come up, if there are any GLBT readers on here even considering going to GLBT AA/NA meetings, thinking that they are “different” than regular AA, I have only this advice: STAY AWAY – FAR, FAR AWAY !

    Yes, they are “different” in that most of the members are GLBT – although no one inquired as to why I was there – but it is the same as “regular” AA.

    Additionally, as we all know, the AA group practically, if not literally, introduces itself as “your new family” and the group will tell the newcomer “we will love you until you learn to love yourself.”

    This sort of thing might sound very appealing to a GLBT teenager or young adult whose family might not be too pleased with them, some going so far as to disown them.

    Many of the degenerates in the rooms, especially older ones, are keenly aware of this dynamic, and they exploit it fully. Add to that the fact that traditionally, AA encourages same-sex sponsors, and you get a very bad combination.

    They couldn’t dream of a better set-up if they tried.


    JR Harris just posted a link of a prime example of this:

    Predators lurk in Traverse City recovery community

  • flannigan

    I still wonder why you come to ST website and post comments. Are you not aware that this is a 12 step muckraking site? Just wondering.

  • I just realized I was being libeled around here again. At a certain point, I can’t keep responding to the same ridiculous charge. It’s sad for someone to be so misguided and blinded by the insecurity that their precious 12-step program isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, that they then lash out with lies towards others.

    To anybody who’s curious about JD’s nonsense, do your homework on that other program that Kirstie Alley loves so much, then do your homework on St Jude’s, and judge for yourself.

    Presently, there is a smear campaign against St Jude’s being run by a competitor of theirs – and that’s how this rumor is gaining ground. When people can’t compete in the realm of ideas they resort to lies, name-calling, and distortion.

    Also, an another issue – JD seriously doesn’t get it if he thinks that whether or not Ken Ragge is drinking is an issue that any enlightened person would care about. If you believe in the all or nothing view of drinking disseminated by AA, then it would be an issue – but then, you would just stay in your AA fear cocoon and probably know nothing of Ken Ragge.

    But then again, JD knows this is a place where impressionable people on the fence about AA show up to think over their options. So really, he’s preying on their vulnerable state – he’s here to scare them off of liberating themselves. It’s too bad. To those who fit this category – don’t fall victim to the likes of JD. I know you’ve been told not to think, but there is a spark within you telling you that the recovery culture is wrong about a lot of things – I implore you to make your own decisions and use your own judgment, don’t let the petty fools control you with their mind-games.

    I’m trying not to use the keywords so as not to increase the search engine relevancy of these rumors, but for the record, even though I’ve said it before – I am not, nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be a follower of LRH’s church or ideas, nor is St Jude’s.

  • SoberPJ

    Ya know Steven, I’m sorry you have to be put through this ringer time and again. I have read your site and your ideas seem sound and you are on the front line of substance abuse treatment on a daily basis in a public way. I respect that and wish you the best of luck.

  • JD

    Well then, let’s hear if Baldwin thinks they have some possible similarities with Narconon…(from their 1998 report)

    “The significance of preceding excerpt and the Table 4.6 from The Baldwin Research Project of 1990* is that both Baldwin Research and Narconon employed a social structure (peer group) in their respective programs, and both Baldwin Research and Narconon employed educational techniques in their respective programs, and both programs collected specific data on the results of their respective programs, and both programs opened their programs up to outside scrutiny and verification, and both Baldwin Research and Narconon independently reported the exact same success of their respective subjects and the exact same failure rate for conventional treatment.”

    Gee Steve, your buddys at Baldwin say they’re pretty darn close to identical. Let’s see if they struggle to prop up Narconon’s fantasy success claims, which is important since they claim the same, shall we do that?

    “Another reason for viewing Narconon’s reported success as credible is the fact that multiple organizations outside of Narconon conducted or participated in the studies…Programs that are producing good results, like The Hagaman Guest House Baldwin Program and Narconon, are more than happy, in fact encourage, outside organizations to study the success rate.”

    Wow, Baldwin is solidly behind Narconon for sure. They have to be since they cloned their program (your program, Steve) from it. But, do they really believe in the Narconon set of ‘activities’?

    “Another significant agreement between the Narconon Program and the Baldwin Program is the recognition that there is a specific set of activities that must be adhered to by virtually all substances abusers if they are to recover.”

    But what does each reasonably and modestly claim to be? Baldwin…”the world’s most successful residential program”, compared with Narconon…”Narconon is the ONLY successful drug rehabilitation program on the planet.”

    Could go on, but no reason to beat a dead horse further into the ground.

    Right Steve, Baldwin is nothing in the least bit like Narconon. Keep saying that. May as well throw in that you haven’t been at all aware of the pattern of connections between them. And Baldwin is completely incorrect for mentioning their specific similarities. After all, what would they know?

  • JD – did you take your meds today?

  • JD

    JH, just supplying useful information for people’s entertainment and enlightenment.

    Did take 3 aspirin today. The jetlag is wearing off, but my sleep pattern is still affected. To bed at 4am, up at 6:30am today. Awful.

  • Did you find any drunks to save while you were gone? How did your friend the one who found the drunk out side his trailer in his underwear make out? Did he end up saving him, or did he just throw him back for some other AA member to hook?

  • JD

    Since you’re not alcoholic you won’t be able to fathom the meaning of it all JR, but I met him while pulling some weeds in my buddy’s yard and that eve we drove him over to the Men’s meeting at another friend’s house, discussing things. Had a killer meeting with quite a few superior shares about the good things going on and the crap in the past. Went to coffee afterwards with 4 guys to yack, stayed late and had some laughs.

    The next am we met him for breakfast and talked more. He’s an older guy, retired from the Navy, has never been able to stay sober before trying AA and he’s impressed with what he sees and hears. He’s dropped a lot of weight and bloat and looked improved just during the few days I was around. He’s just started being willing to talk in the meetings the past weeks and has plenty of questions, which is all good for a 2-month guy.

    So he’s a maybe to this point, still holding himself back. What’s going against him is the drunk gf who misses having someone to beat up when she’s wasted.

    If he asks a guy to sponsor him and begins doing some work and stays honest it could happen. Otherwise he’ll likely blow out and regain his punching bag status. No big deal to us either way. We get the benefit of being of service to a new guy, and it matters not which new guy is in the chair on any given eve.

    Nothing special, just the usual.

  • JD, have you read my medical chart? I always wanted to know what the actual coding for an “Alcoholic” or “non Alcoholic” was for DSM IV? Could you explain it to me?

    Aren’t you a little bit afraid of picking these drunks up off the street and bringing them into your home? Does it ever put your family in danger?

  • MA

    JD, you’re a regular Johnny Appleseed.

  • Actually I was asking that question for a reason. I do not believe that JD is a “professional” addictions counselor and because of this he is putting his “prospect”, himself and his family in imminent danger.

    The process for someone to be diagnosed by a medical professional is much different than one that a follower of Bill Wilson does. In the medical profession a quick screening is done to determine the level of “Alcohol Abuse”. If Alcohol Abuse is determined the a full Assessment test is given to determine the level of “Alcoholism”. The followers of Bill Wilson are barely even giving them the screening for “Alcohol Abuse” and are not trained in interpreting the results. They never give the full assessment and that is why they put thier “prospect”, themselves, families and many other people in danger. Let me explain.

    Depending upon the country, state and facility your are in, you are given a full self-report Substance Abuse Assessment. This assessment contains other questions on it besides those relating to drinking, such as arrests, current and past diseases, any other diagnosis of current or past mental illness, current medication and on some tests access to weapons. This is used not only in the diagnosis of Alcoholism, but to put safe guards in place to prevent suicide, acts of violence, complications due to not taking prescribed medicine and the spreading of infectious diseases.

    The followers of Bill Wilson are very arrogant and do not believe that Doctors know what they are talking about and often suggest going off prescribed medication causing suicidal and violent tendencies towards others. They may or may not know what infectious diseases they are bring into thier family and they may not know if the “prospect” has access to a weapon. This is one of the reasons for this thread, to document this fact so changes can be made, and Doctors will quit sending people to amateurs that often do much more harm than good.

  • JD

    JR, any guy around there that owns less than 5 guns is probably homeless. Of course he’s got guns, why would we ask him a dumb question like that? He’s probably got few rakes and shovels too, but that doesn’t scare us either.

    Thank God he’s talking to people who understand him. Imagine if he was talking to you, with only your inexperience and ignorance of what he’s gone through and his possibilities to offer.

  • JD – I don’t know what to tell you, it’s really pretty simple. Read all of the articles on this thread, I believe you will only find 1 or 2 articles on tragedies happening at a medical facility. They ask those questions on the full Substance Abuse question for a reason.

    As for you, if you are allowing a homeless drunk into your house and family that has access to 5 guns, you are definitely exhibiting risky behavior that can get many different people very hurt. You are asking for trouble and I hope it doesn’t happen to you.

  • Greenwood, Indiana April 09, 2011 by Diana Penner- Officer Nicholas Dine, son of Lt. Bob Dine suspended for a month and will be prohibited from drinking alcohol subject to random testing and weekly Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.

    He was on medical leave for alcohol-abuse treatment completed the treatment that day and “slipped” about 12:30 p.m and ended up in an altercation with residents in the parking lot. Chief Joseph Pitcher was fired because he had Nicholas Dine brought to his home and offered him alcohol.

    Last Fall Sgt. Jim Ison, and Lt. Brian Blackwell, held an intervention which started him to seek eventual Alcohol treatment.

  • Jonny Quest


    Good that you actually provided something, but not so good that you didn’t provide a link to the report.

    In any case, here is the 1998 report that JD is referencing:

    This thread here is probably where JD got his info:

    Baldwin Research Institute — A Scientology Fraud?

    You’ll have to scroll through the posts, but Steven Slate jumped in at some point to counter some of the incorrect assertions:

    The conclusion by the moderator was that Baldwin Research Institute was not affiliated with Scientology, and the thread was closed.

    Worth reading for those interested.

    Here again are the articles from Steven Slate criticizing a Scientology rehab front, and the link to the FAQ from St. Jude’s regarding a Scientology Connection.

    Fake Recovery Alternatives: New Face of Recovery – Narconon – Scientology

    FAQ: Is St. Jude’s or Baldwin Research Institute, Inc. affiliated with Narconon or Scientology?

    If this shows up on search engines, at least it will have some answers.

  • Jonny Quest


    I just posted responding to JD’s Scientology rant, seems to have ended up in the filter. Man, I do not want to type all that again. If you can fish it out, it would certainly be interesting to see how he explains his selective out of context quoting.

    Anyway, here is the link to the 1998 report JD cites:

    Here is a link to a thread on another forum where Steven Slate clarifies this:

  • Jonny Quest

    Here is a link to a thread where Steven Slate clarifies the LRH connection:

    FTG: Check the filter.

  • Jonny Quest

    Steven Slate: “Also, an another issue – JD seriously doesn’t get it if he thinks that whether or not Ken Ragge is drinking is an issue that any enlightened person would care about. If you believe in the all or nothing view of drinking disseminated by AA, then it would be an issue – but then, you would just stay in your AA fear cocoon and probably know nothing of Ken Ragge.”

    Even if you do believe in the all or nothing view of drinking disseminated by AA, it still wouldn’t be an issue.

    I think that abstinence for proven problem drinkers is probably the only kernel of wisdom ever handed out in AA.

    Unfortunately, the group then proceeds to systematically undermine all confidence in one’s ability to ever achieve it.

    That said, I certainly do not care if someone else gets drunk, high, or frothing-at-the-mouth mainlined. Unless and until they wreak havoc on society at large because of it, that’s their business. Once that happens, well, all bets are off.

    What can I say? I’m old fashioned.

    To my knowledge, though, Ken Ragge isn’t out there beating up women or cruising down the highway drunk as a skunk.

    BTW, I’ve read most of your material over at Clean Slate – most of it I agree with.

  • JD

    JQ, not affiliated, I never said they were affiliated or a Narconon front.

    I used the words wannabe, imitation, clone. Their businesses are not connected, nor have they ever been. The point is that Baldwin liked the Narconon front program imaginary recovery percentage numbers so much that they modeled their program after it and felt they could advertise the same recovery numbers because their program was the same.

    Which is no problem at all if you believe in Scientology and believe they have a pattern of being truthful in the things they say. Then you would think Baldwin did a good thing, and that it’s wonderful they run an imitation of Narconon.

  • Jonny Quest

    Welcome to the “no spin” zone…

  • Protecting the Vulnerable from Narconon/Scientology

    This is a University Funded Project

  • hulahoop

    This article reminded me of AA even though it isn’t about AA. I heard the same stories in a lot of different places. I wondered if these events really happened to people or if they heard the story and repeated it enough times to make them believe it really happened to them.

    The answer returns us to a troubling recent theory known as memory reconsolidation. In essence, reconsolidation is rooted in the fact that every time we recall a memory we also remake it, subtly tweaking the neuronal details. Although we like to think of our memories as being immutable impressions, somehow separate from the act of remembering them, they aren’t. A memory is only as real as the last time you remembered it. What’s disturbing, of course, is that we can’t help but borrow many of our memories from elsewhere, so that the ad we watched on television becomes our own, part of that personal narrative we repeat and retell.

    This idea, simple as it seems, requires us to completely re-imagine our assumptions about memory. It reveals memory as a ceaseless process, not a repository of inert information. The recall is altered in the absence of the original stimulus, becoming less about what we actually remember and more about what we’d like to remember. It’s the difference between a “Save” and the “Save As” function. Our memories are a “Save As”: They are files that get rewritten every time we remember them, which is why the more we remember something, the less accurate the memory becomes. And so that pretty picture of popcorn becomes a taste we definitely remember, and that alluring soda commercial becomes a scene from my own life. We steal our stories from everywhere. Marketers, it turns out, are just really good at giving us stories we want to steal.

  • hulahoop

    ACK! I did not mean to post the comments as well! Hopefully FTG will come by and edit my post! I am so sorry!

    • MA

      There ya go, hulahoop.

  • JD

    JQ, when you spin something I did say into something I didn’t say, and then refute the thing I never said, I’ll probably notice and comment on it.

    It probably does look to you like some kind of zone where you can’t spin things to your liking, but I most often just let things stand so chances are you can still have fun.

  • Sally

    Just a thought, maybe there could be a “JD” thread or “Arguing with steppers” thread. Other, and more important messages are getting lost in the JD shuffle.

  • SoberPJ

    It took enough nonsense, but I think JD has finally made his points clear enought to address.

    ” I used the words wannabe, imitation, clone. Their businesses are not connected, nor have they ever been.” That’s clear to me. I’ll stay away from any notion of backpedaling.

    ” The point is that Baldwin liked the Narconon front program imaginary recovery percentage numbers so much that they modeled their program after it and felt they could advertise the same recovery numbers because their program was the same. ”

    That is also clear and the basis for real dialog. This is a real simple one to resolve.

    Is the Baldwin approach “modeled” after Narconon ? I’m not sure how to compare models here, but If Baldwin in not like Narconon, then the rest is conjecture or simply false. If Baldwin is modeled after Narconon, well, JD may be right.

  • JD

    PJ, you may want to check my earlier post in this thread where we hear what Baldwin has to say on the subject.

    You can then argue with them if they are right or not.

  • Well since he’s here……. I wonder if JD would tell us some of the stories he has had, or heard of about picking up drunks in the gutter and bringing them home to meet the friends and family? Did he have any close calls? Has he caught any diseases from doing this? Has he ever had to call the police? You know……… the usual stuff that is reported on this thread.

  • Sally, yes. That’s what the Neverending thread is for… Maybe we could move this operation over there?

  • flannigan

    Seriously, JD, why do you post comments on the ST website? I am very curious as to your motives.

  • Jonny Quest

    JD says “JQ, when you spin something I did say into something I didn’t say, and then refute the thing I never said, I’ll probably notice and comment on it.”

    I did not “spin” what you said into something you didn’t.

    What you did could be considered deception by omission – leaving out a vital piece of information that might change the meaning significantly.

    I included the piece of information you left out – the historical context of the report you quoted, and a link to the full report.

  • Jonny Quest

    flannigan says “Seriously, JD, why do you post comments on the ST website? I am very curious as to your motives.”

    His motive is an old trick. Sow dissent in the ranks of the opposition. Divide and conquer.

    Same as if someone here went to a 12-Step forum and started insinuating that people are not practicing “real AA” and quoting the “Big Book” to back up that insinuation, with the intention of sitting back and watching the sparks fly between the fundamentalists and the more lax members.

    This is easy enough to do, since most AA members don’t actually follow “the program” as written, and since there are fundamentalists within AA, as evidenced by “Back to Basics” and “Primary Purpose” groups.

    Keep them arguing amongst themselves, and with you, and they have little time left for “carrying the message.”

    This is JD’s motive here.

  • JD

    The more immediate question is what is it about the faux Narconon program that is so attractive to ftg and MA that they provide an easy link for people to connect with The Coach? If people are paying $2500 for every 8 phone calls to an untrained spin-dry Graduate there is certainly enough money floating around to explain it, but might they like to promote it for other reasons? I mean the harping about the 2yr degreed and licensed addiction crowd is a constant, and the opinions about how untrained AA sponsors are and how they have no right to help people for free are ceaseless…so how could The Coach make perfect sense to them to actively promote? Giving people in trouble an easy path to Stevie doesn’t meet any logical standard at all for them that I can envision, and is a true mystery.

    But then, I’ve yet to see anything negative here about Operating Thetan Kirstie Alley. Hmmm.

  • What training do you have in the Substance Abuse Treatment field JD?

  • MA

    “The more immediate question is what is it about the faux Narconon program that is so attractive to ftg and MA that they provide an easy link for people to connect with The Coach?”

    I can’t believe I’m saying this, but you make a good point, JD.

    I personally don’t endorse any program, including Steven’s, but there is some good information on his site. It may seem odd to you that we link some things that we don’t fully endorse, but those of us not living in the separate reality of AA aren’t threatened by “outside material,” and we don’t need things to be “conference approved.” We also have links to Dick B and McGowdoghouse, and we obviously don’t endorse what they have to say on the subject of addiction.

    You’re sounding a bit jealous, and if you wish, we could post a link to the forum you moderate, so our readers can go there and get the world according JD.

  • flannigan

    @Jonny Quest
    Thank you for your reply and take on JD’s motives for posting comments on ST.
    But I would like to hear it “from the horse’s mouth”,
    JD, what are your motives (assuming that you have some)? What do you hope to accomplish by your posts?

  • Sally

    I also see a link to The Big Book online….shame shame 😉

  • JD

    f, the answer’s aways the same so I hope all can keep up.

    For the fun of it. I almost always have a laugh here except when this place gets boring. Then I leave for a bit and come back with hopes that rarely are not exceeeded. This is one of the finest humor sites on the Web.

  • hulahoop

    If people are paying $2500 for every 8 phone calls…

    This statement is inaccurate. It is one thing to talk smack about someone based on your personal opinion. It’s another to provide information that is false. I am not doing advertising. I am providing accurate information from the source itself because I’ve seen this same incorrect information posted more than once.

    The full price for The Clean Slate Addiction Coaching Program is $1375.00 US. This includes 12 sixty minute sessions spread over 10 weeks time, all program materials, and clients are allowed 2 additional 15 minute “check-in” sessions per week to be used at their discretion.

  • Ben Franklin

    “You’re sounding a bit jealous, and if you wish, we could post a link to the forum you moderate, so our readers can go there and get the world according JD.”

    MA here is the link to JD’s site:

  • flannigan

    Thanks for your response. And I am glad that ST brings some fun and laughs to your life.
    But I have to disagree- it is not funny, it is criminal, to foist cult religion masquerading as alcoholism treatment on sick people who only wanted help for their problems. Surely you want the best treatment available for your fellow alcoholics, don’t you?

  • MikeAugustine


    I don’t think JD is Tony J. In fact, Tony J seems to dropped off the Web. He used to post a lot on McGowDog’s site, then suddenly one day – poof. I can only imagine one of the below having occurred:

    1. He has gone on to other user handles and has not yet established a pattern.
    2. He got tired of the whole back and forth and has placed a higher priority on his serenity/sobriety than on bickering.
    3. He is dead
    4. He picked up again.

  • JD

    hulahoop, here’s the pricing I saw on March 27, 2011:

    “Pricing & Policies
    The full price for The Clean Slate Addiction Coaching Program is $2,750.00 US. This includes 12 weekly one hour sessions, and all program materials.

    Is he conducting a fire sale?

  • JD

    Here’s where this discussion really started, you can review the information there. It’s the one aptly called ‘Measuring Success. A very complimentary thread started by MA who when the comments turn south says he doesn’t approve of Coach Stevie’s methods, and says it’s ftg who feels differently about it than he does.

    See how funny this stuff can be?

  • MA

    I suspect JD has dropped substantially more than $2,700 into “the hat” over the last 29 years. God knows how much he’s wasted in money, time and intellect during that period. And he’s got the rest of his life to spend and waste even more money and time. It’s too much to even fathom. What fucking waste.

  • Actually I would like to hear more about this “fire sale” thing that JD is talking about. Because I am following several stories about 12 Steppers trying to find newly minted Drunks out of Rehabs to make hit bottom. When they do that, the other members of the fellowship who are in real estate swoop in quickly to help liquidate whatever property they have at rock bottom prices. Then the other members of the fellowship who are mortgage brokers falsify records to make the make the transaction go through. Then if they are caught, all of the other members come to the criminals defense at trial and give glowing testimony how Spiritual these guys are and they should be let off lightly. Just recently such a scenario could have happened in Pueblo Colorado with restaurateur Tony Ianne.

    JD, how many of these Drunks have you picked up that the other members of the Fellowship liquidated what remaining assets they had to “Help Them”, while making a tidy profit for themselves?

  • JD

    JR, as usual you’re 180 degrees off in what you suppose is so compared to reality.

    Not that it will matter to your future fantasies, but here’s what’s going on in the real world.

    I used a sober guy to sell one of my houses in the States, and though he worked on it for 9 months there was no charge. I mailed him and check and he mailed it back uncashed. The same RE Broker before getting sober represented my sponsor in the offer to purchase his home, but the deal went through later directly between the seller and my sponsor shortly after the listing expired so there was no commission to be paid.

    I found out 15yrs after the fact from the broker that my sponsor sent him his commision out of the blue though he wasn’t obligated to do so, never saying anything about it to anyone else. That check the broker did cash.

    You’d not know about it but AAs normally give a discount to other AAs for professional services. The rest like moving household furniture and remodels and minor new construction and auto and boat repairs for new people are commonly done without charge.

    I know it all doesn’t fit with your fantasies, but there it is. I long ago lost track of the moves I was in on with my group, but I’d estimate it to be 5-=60. We’re down to about 4 hours for an average sized house with 20-25 members showing up. Traditionally that costs the newcomers 2 dozen doughnuts, coffee that needs to be ready first off, and pizza when done. Not surprisingly the newcomers are never finished packing and there are usually filth hazards to clean up.

    Most recently a friend (the guy with the men’s meeting at his house) turned over $600 from selling a few things for me at a yard sale he conducted. He refused to take a cent of it despite the work involved for him.

    Ok, returning you now to your fantasies…

  • JD, why do you think I know all of this information about AA? Or is it just that you want me to say “Hi! My name is _____ and I’m an Alcoholic”, like all of the other followers of the prophet Bill Wilson?

    How come I keep getting the sneaky suspicion you are trying to help me with Step 4 and tell you all about the little secrets in my life that are none of your business. I’ll be waiting for you to tell me that it is Step 5 where this happens. Do a search for closed Step 4 meetings in your area before you do, because we both know even though they tell you in Step 5 you are supposed to tell one other person about your experiences, when a target (they call them prospects) is doing Step 4 they discuss it with everyone under the corporate AA policy of anonymity.

    (Why do you think I know all of this stuff JD? This is inside information that only someone who has been there will know.)

  • Sally

    Again I am speechless.

    Judge: Alcoholics Anonymous conversations are ‘religious communication’

    A federal judge overturned a manslaughter conviction, saying conversations among Alcoholics Anonymous participants should not have been used as evidence because such exchanges are a form of confidential religious communication.

    The entire AA relationship, he wrote, “is anonymous and confidential.”

  • Sally

    That Newfound Religion Will Keep You Out of Jail

    Want to confess to a crime but do no time? Forget your lawyer, your shrink and your priest. Just join Alcoholics Anonymous and tell everyone you meet there — even though you know only their first names. It’s okay. A federal judge said so, because AA is a religion.

    Earlier this month, Judge Brieant ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion; the entire AA relationship is anonymous and confidential; all AA members are the equivalent of priests and are thus required to maintain confidentiality. Cox’s arrest and subsequent conviction were fruit of the poisonous tree, which could not have otherwise been obtained.

    Never mind that AA says it is not a religion; the eight people who told the DA of Cox’s confession didn’t know they were priests, and even if they were, Cox’s confessions all occurred outside of AA meetings.

  • causeandeffect

    Hmmm, from what I’ve seen, you don’t want to do business with stepper even when they’ve been sober quite a while.

    – Stepper hired to build an add on to home. Only 4x4s were erected and plywood roof. The job was never finished and the work was so shoddy it had to be torn down. The worker’s tools had to be confiscated to off set the monetary loss.

    -Stepper hired to replace rotten exterior wood on house. Stepper suggested to use wood putty instead, hoping the home owner wouldn’t know the difference. Had to be told by co-worker that it would be wrong to do that. I kid you not. Wood putty.

    -Same stepper suggested to repair a chip out of a door frame he had made while doing other work . Again wanted to repair it with wood putty.

    -Stepper hired to install floor tile in bathroom. Water squishes out from between the tiles when you step on them.

    -Stepper hired to install new sink. Drain stopper broke with the very first use. He never returned to fix it.

    -Stepper almost hired to do taxes but was arrested for human trafficking before he was hired

    -Stepper stole his roommate’s truck.

    All that was in the short time I was in AA.

  • BethZ

    Here’s a question about being an alcoholic. I’ve heard people in AA that no one can tell you if you are an alcoholic — you are the only one who can determine that. But these same people have told me that I am not a real alcoholic, I am just a heavy drinker. I quit without AA.

    What’s up with this?

  • Jonny Quest


    They love to pull that “real alcoholic” nonsense, to either try and get people to “confess” their sins to a “sponsor” or to dismiss people who quit without AA.

    Tell them to go back and read what the “Big Book” actually says, and what Bill Wilson actually said about “real alcoholics” quitting without AA.

    Even according to the “Big Book” you don’t need to confess a single thing to any AA member, ever, and according to Bill Wilson, “real alcoholics” can quit without AA.

    I guarantee you that their minds will grind to a screeching halt if you do this – they don’t quite know what to do when someone quotes the “Big Book” back at them, since there is no slogan for that.

    I wrote a post on this before.


  • humanspirit

    @cause and effect

    I don’t think most of these are to do with being steppers per se. It’s been pretty common for me, in my experience, to get this kind of shoddy workmanship from anyone not personally recommended by neighbours/friends.

    There are many problems you can blame the 12-step program for, but not, I think, this one.. Dodgy standards when it comes to household repairs/maintenance work are, unfortunately, a universal problem. (Tip for anyone in the UK – Polish builders//decorators, etc, really are good!)

  • Sally

    Steppers play mind games and use trickery.

    My last sponsor told me “Only you can decide if you’re an alcoholic, I can’t tell you, but since you’re about to lose your husband and kids you must be”…..I was never close to losing them (or even hinted at that) but she predicted I would if I continued drinking.
    Worst sponsor ever!

    @ Primrose, I’m working on it, ty. It is a lot of information to take in…I wish I could take it to bed with me, reading from a computer is hard on the eyes.

    Goodnight, Sally

  • Jonny Quest

    Well, they might try the old “utilize, don’t analyze” if you quote the Big Book, but generally, not even the “old timers” will try any BS once they realize you know the “sacred literature” better than they do.

    The best they could come up with when I asked them to tell me precisely where in the book it said that I needed a “sponsor” to work the program was “well, you need a sponsor to do a Step 5” – I said “wrong” read the Big Book – says you can use a priest or trusted friend instead.

    Then they said “well, Dr. Bob and Bill sponsored each other” – to which I said – WRONG – Bill Wilson considered Ebby Thatcher his sponsor.

    Then they said “So, how’s your sobriety going?” – to which I said “Great! Much better than yours. I will never drink again, remember? I quit for life, not just one day at a time, and only for today, like you.”

    They usually start by ganging up on you, but they back off mighty quick after a round or two like this, and sooner rather than later, they won’t even ask about your “sobriety.”

  • causeandeffect

    No Humanspirit, I don’t directly blame the steps for this. But the steps are supposed to instill some integrity and it’s obvious they don’t. Mr. Woodputty is a hardcore, at least 2 meetings per day kind of guy. Seems he works the program so hard, he has no strength left to do his job. 😉

  • hulahoop

    JD says hulahoop, here’s the pricing I saw on March 27, 2011:

    “Pricing & Policies
    The full price for The Clean Slate Addiction Coaching Program is $2,750.00 US. This includes 12 weekly one hour sessions, and all program materials.

    Is he conducting a fire sale?

    I don’t know. What I do know is his real name, phone number, and email are posted on his website. Perhaps you should contact him to discuss any concerns you have about the services he offers and the fees he charges for them because you seem very distressed about it.

  • Sally

    Interesting case(s) if anyone has the resources and desire to take this on as a project. I do not have the resources.

    I think Eugene McCollom (sometimes reported as McCollum) can be tied to 2 cases, perhaps 3, where he met a persona at AA and then murdered them.

    Apparently investigators are still being tight lipped about the cases. It’s hard to find information.

    1) John (Jackie) Leyden


    “In Suffolk court yesterday, William Leyden recounted his horror at discovering his brother’s headless body three years ago — rolled up in a blanket, hidden under a bed. The next shock for Leyden came when police accused him of the crime.

    But yesterday, Leyden listened as Eugene McCollom, a former truck driver from Lynn, admitted he was the one who had savagely beaten, stabbed, and decapitated John Leyden.

    The men had struck up a friendship at Alcoholics Anonymous meetings but that night McCollom had secretly brought a length of metal pipe and a knife to John Leyden’s apartment, indicating that his intentions were anything but friendly, Suffolk Assistant District Attorney Mark Lee said yesterday.”

    2) Kelly Ford


    page 95.

    “Alcoholics Anonymous meetings are open to everyone. An that means that some seedy characters are able to pray on young, vulnerable and shaky newcomers to the to the 12-step program. One such man was Eugene McCollom: convicted murderer and suspected serial killer. Months before Ford’s body was found, McCollom had met a former prostitute at an AA meeting at the Chelsea Soldiers’ Home, A hospital for veterans. The woman – whose real name was never discovered – was later found hacked to pieces in the woods near the hospital……not far from the residential treatment center where Ford had been living. In the end, McCollom was convicted of the hooker’s murder and confessed to killing a Lynn man whom he attended meetings with…..The Ford family, however, is certain that the serial killer who drove Kelly Ford to meetings is the man who killed her.”

    HEAD, HANDS FOUND; Cops eye link to missing hooker‎

    Pay-Per-View – Boston Herald – Jan 20, 2004

    The buried body parts are undergoing DNA testing to confirm a match with the woman, who authorities say was murdered by Eugene McCollom, 39, on Nov. 11, 2000, after they argued over sex in his Lynn YMCA room.

    Sources said the new information in the case hasn’t pinpointed Ford’s killer, but DNA samples have been taken from Ford that could show if there’s a link to McCollom.

    McCollom allegedly confessed to strangling and dismembering the woman he picked up in Boston’s Combat Zone. The alcoholic laborer chopped off her head, hands and toes and cut out her heart before dumping the body at the Chelsea Soldiers Home, where he used to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.

  • Sally
  • Mystic, Connecticut – 05/29/2011 By Joe Wojtas – Jordon J. Seacor, 21, of Ossining, N.Y arrested by Stonington police for criminal attempt, robbery, third-degree burglary, second-degree criminal mischief, first-degree larceny, driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs and eluding a police officer while attending St. Edmund’s Retreat Center.

    Clients pay about $21,000 for a three-month stay. Using a knife he tried to rob a person, then broke into a garage and stole a car. Police were called and pulled him over and arrested him.

  • Sumter County Georgia – Metro Atlanta / State News June 1, 2011 – 57 year old Judicial Circuit Chief Superior Court Judge Rucker Smith was pulled over and arrested for DUI and an open container of alcohol on Saturday May 29, 2011.

    This was not the first time that Judicial Circuit Chief Superior Court Judge Rucker Smith in 2005 he was accused of battery by pushing and grabbing a woman by the neck while the two were in his home.

    Georgia has an extremely hard Drug Court policy that sends many children into the never ending cycle of rehabs and more probation sending them to more rehabs. See the story of Georgia Drug Court Judge Amanda Williams:

  • Georgia has a major problems with thier Judges. Drug Court in Georgia seems very harsh. The Judges seem to be having a problem with Drugs also. In October of 2010, US District Judge Jack T. Camp, Jr was arrested for buying and using drugs at the Velvet Room in Sandy Springs Georgia. He was under a long time FBI surveillance sting. He had been buying and using marijuana, cocaine and Roxycodone for a long time. Using a gun to protect the stripper that was buying drugs for him and acting as a body guard. It would be interesting to see what would happen if he was prosecuted by Judge Amanda Williams and sent into the never ending cycle of court mandated torture she is putting children and young adults through.

    Multiple sources:

  • Traverse City Michigan has more problems with Alcohol and its treatment than The Chair Person having his neck slashed on this thread:

    February 16, 2011 by Dan Holmes:

    “The long, sad odyssey of a Grand Traverse County Deputy was adjudicated this morning. 86th District Court Judge Michael J. Haley sentenced Kipp Needham to six months in jail. It was the end to another in a series of incidents involving local law enforcement and alcohol and violence.

    Needham is currently suspended from his position as a Grand Traverse County Deputy as a result of a drunken tirade that took place at his Acme home last June. Police responded to a domestic violence complaint at the home and arrived to find Needham acting erratically. Eventually, the off-duty Deputy surrendered his law enforcement-issued weapon but the bizarre episode didn’t end there. Needham threatened and attacked a police officer and had to be subdued by several officers in his backyard. His face was beaten and bruised from his scuffles with his fellow cops. A subsequent blood test revealed that Needham was legally drunk.

    But perhaps most unusual about this incident was the fact that Needham was a decorated deputy with an unblemished record. His superiors and co-workers were shocked at the behavior, which was “out of character” for Needham.”

    Read more at:

  • Elgin woman charged with sixth DUI comes to court drunk, authorities say. 6/4/2011 9:07 AM by By Barbara Vitello. Cook County, Elgin, Illinois

    “An Elgin woman charged with her sixth DUI had her bail revoked this week when she showed up for court intoxicated, court records show.

    Sandra Uher, 54, of the 1200 block of Maroon Drive, was remanded to Cermak Hospital, which is part of the Cook County Jail, for evaluation on Thursday.”


    “Uher failed a field sobriety test and registered .30 on a preliminary blood-alcohol test, Cotter said. That’s nearly four times the legal limit. Uher also was driving on a revoked license, authorities said.”


    “Her latest DUI arrest follows several previous DUI convictions. Uher was convicted of DUI in 2005 and sentenced to 18 months in prison. She received two DUI convictions in 1999 for separate offenses that occurred on the same day. And she was sentenced to supervision for drunken driving in July 1997 which became a conviction in May 1999. Uher also was arrested on charges of DUI two years ago in Kane County.”

  • Defendant in Irvine cheerleader death calls events ‘terrible’ – Orange County California – June 3, 2011, The Dailypilot by Lauren Williams La Times.

    “Austin Jeffrey Farley of Irvine did not admit or deny responsibility for the teenager’s death, saying only that he is not the “careless maniac” being portrayed in the media.”


    “Prosecutors see a different man. The Orange County district attorney has charged the construction worker with murder and other crimes in the Memorial Day weekend wreck that claimed 14-year-old Northwood High School freshman Ashton Sweet’s life and sent four other people to the hospital. Farley is accused of driving with an alcohol level more than two and a half times the legal limit.”


    “A letter from the owner of a sober living home in Mission Viejo dated Jan. 10 said Farley was ready to leave treatment in January, adding that he had contributed to and taken part in activities at the center, Home Life Sober Living.

    Farley was also admitted to Sunrise Recovery Ranch in Riverside on May 6, 2010.

    His admittance to both programs follows an outline submitted to the court by his father, James Austin Farley, in a letter pleading with Judge Craig Robison to allow Austin Farley to be placed in an “extensive recovery program” instead of incarcerating him. The letter included a suggested seven months total of living in sober living and transitional homes.

    Like the four teenagers who were sent to the hospital in the May 29 crash, Austin Farley graduated from Northwood High in 2003, Hanigan said in an e-mail.”,0,4268825.story

  • Sally

    Ex-banker gets deal in child molestation case

    An ex-Michigan bank president accused of molesting a 6-year-old girl has pleaded guilty in a deal that could eventually clear him of felony charges and keep him off Indiana’s sex offender registry.

    St. Joseph (Ind.) County prosecutors charged William C. Peterson, 43, with felony child molesting. The South Bend Tribune reported authorities accuse the Granger resident of fondling a sleeping girl in May 2008.

    St. Joseph, Mich.-based Edgewater Bank fired Peterson soon after he was charged.

    His trial was to start Friday. Under Tuesday’s deal, he’ll be sentenced in 2014 on misdemeanor battery charges and will be cleared of felony penalties if he sticks to court-ordered terms. They include staying away from the victim, continuing psychiatric counseling, attending Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, and abstaining from drugs and alcohol.

  • Sally

    A former Van Nuys-based defense lawyer pleaded no contest Friday to two felony counts of molestation molestation n. the crime of sexual acts with children up to the age of 18, including touching of private parts, exposure of genitalia, taking of pornographic pictures, rape, inducement of sexual acts with the molester or with other children, and variations of these against a girl in his Hidden Hills home nearly 30 years ago.
    The judge ordered Fudge to participate in sex offender therapy classes and Alcoholics Anonymous meetings once a week, perform 400 hours of community service, and said he cannot be in the presence of minors without a legal guardian present. He also cannot work with minors.

  • Sally

    The article is kind of old but anyway…
    Man Faces Charges Of Abusing Teenagers Police Say The Lansdale Resident, Who Drove Them To Alcoholics Anonymous Meetings, Touched Them.

    A Lansdale man who volunteered to drive Hatfield-area teenagers to Alcoholics Anonymous groups was arrested yesterday on charges that he touched and made sexual comments to young men he met through the program.

    According to the affidavit, an 18-year-old whom Jordan sponsored at the Alcoholics Anonymous meetings said Jordan had touched him inappropriately at least 50 times.

    After an arraignment before District Justice Harold D. Borek, he was released on $5,000 unsecured bail on the condition that he cease volunteering for Alcoholics Anonymous and have no contact with the alleged victims.

    —Hmmm, so he can’t volunteer for AA but it’s OK to go?

  • Anchorage Alaska – April 18th, 2009 by MEGAN HOLLAND

    “Luis Soriano was shot in the head while he was waiting in his car for his cousin to exit the Alano Club, where teens and young adults were streaming out after a fracas erupted on the dance floor.”


    Soriano was at a late-night teen party at the Spenard Road club, best known as a longtime Anchorage hangout for recovering alcoholics. It was not immediately clear on Saturday who was hosting the party or if it had anything to do with the Alano Club’s normal clientele.

    “Gerri Mayor, a volunteer collecting door-entry fees, said about 100 young adults, all older than 17, showed up for the party.”

    Read more:

  • Sally

    Judge sentences career criminal to 30 years (2000
    A Superior Court judge sentenced career criminal Laurence Kompkoff to 30 years in prison for attempting to rape a woman and shooting her finger off during a struggle.

    Before he ever met his latest victim, Kompkoff had four violent felony convictions dating back 27 years. In 1973, he received a light sentence for assault with a dangerous weapon after ”he held a gun to an acquaintance’s head, took out a knife and stabbed him in the stomach and chest,” Greene said.

    In 1979, he was convicted for sexual assault after he followed a woman home from an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, broke down her door and raped her.

    Negligence 2001 (This one is especially interesting..I cannot view the entire article…but I wonder if this Judge sentence him to treatment, then ruled that the treatment center had a duty to protect the other clients)
    The Alaska Supreme Court ruled in a recent case that an out-patient substance abuse treatment facility had a duty to protect its patients from harm during the course of the treatment. Specifically, the court said that the center should have taken steps to warn patients that others in the treatment program might be prone to violence.

    —–I’m real curious to know the order of events here. When was Kompkoff in treatment?

  • Sally

    Case Style: Diana Bryson v. Banner Health Systems d/b/a Fairbanks Memorial Hospital d/b/a Family Recovery Center and Guy Patterson
    The Family Recovery Center placed Diana Bryson and Laurence Kompkoff in the same continuing care substance abuse treatment group. According to Bryson, as part of the treatment, the Center encouraged all members of the group to contact and assist each other outside of the group setting. The Center knew that Kompkoff had an extensive criminal history of alcohol-related crimes of violence, including sexual assaults. Kompkoff relapsed into drinking while being treated. He called Bryson for a ride, attempted to rape her, and shot her in the ensuing struggle. Bryson sued the Center, alleging that it negligently failed to warn and protect her against harm from Kompkoff.

    The superior court ruled on summary judgment that the Center owed Bryson an actionable duty of due care to protect her from harm in the course of her treatment – including foreseeable harm by other patients. Both parties petitioned for review, contesting the superior court’s ruling on the existence and scope of the Center’s duty.

    The Family Recovery Center provides out-patient substance abuse treatment in Fairbanks.2 The Center placed both D iana Bryson and Laurence Kompkoff in its continuing care self-help group after each had independently completed an intensive substance abuse program.

    When Kompkoff enrolled in the Center’s program, he had an extensive criminal history involving alcohol abuse and sexual violence:

    He was first convicted of felony assault with a dangerous weapon in 1973 for stabbing another person multiple times. Kompkoff was incarcerated for the offense until February 1976.

    In July 1976, about five months after his release, Kompkoff slashed his step-father’s neck with a knife. He was again convicted of felony assault with a dangerous weapon, but received only five years of probation on the condition that he abstain from alcohol and complete substance abuse treatment.

    In April 1978 Kompkoff violated his probation by drinking and possessing a butcher knife.

    In July 1979 Kompkoff broke into the home of a woman he had met at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and raped her. Upon conviction, Kompkoff was sentenced to fifteen years in prison.3 He remained incarcerated until August 1989, and then resided at halfway houses until August of 1990, when he was released on parole.

    Three months later, in December 1990, Kompkoff broke into a neighboring woman’s home, put a knife to her throat, and threatened to kill her. Kompkoff was convicted of first-degree burglary for this offense and was sentenced to serve ten years in prison, w ith two-and-a-half years suspended. After serving the unsuspended portion of his sentence, he w as released on probation in December 1995.

    Over the next four years, Kompkoff violated the conditions of his probation on at least three separate occasions.

    Kompkoff decided to enroll in the Center’s program in September 1999 at the encouragement of his probation officer, after he was arrested for consuming alcohol and driving while intoxicated – his third probation violation. At a probation revocation hearing in November 1999, his probation officer reported that Kompkoff was in the final stages of his substance abuse treatment at the Center and seemed to be doing well. Based on this report, the superior court revoked only a short period of Kompkoff’s total suspended term and allowed him to resume probation on the condition that he complete the Center’s outpatient continuing care program.

    The Center knew of Kompkoff’s criminal history when it placed him together with Bryson in the same self-help group, but did not consider his history to rule out the placement because Kompkoff had successfully completed the Center’s intensive treatment program. In admitting Kompkoff to the program, the Center failed to warn Bryson or any other group members that he might be dangerous if he resumed drinking; nor did the Center take any other precautions to protect group members on account of Kompkoff’s history of relapse and violence.

    Bryson and Kompkoff participated in three self-help group sessions together: on December 28, 1999, December 30, 1999, and January 4, 2000. On January 10 or 11, Kompkoff’s probation officer called and warned the Center of reports

    On January 11 Kompkoff called Bryson for a ride to the bank and the credit union. Bryson agreed and arranged to pick him up at a local grocery store; when she arrived, Kompkoff asked if she would take him to his apartment first, so that he could make some phone calls. At Kompkoff’s insistence, Bryson accompanied him into his apartment. Kompkoff walked into his bedroom; Bryson stayed behind. She noticed a large bottle of vodka on a table; just as she saw the bottle, Kompkoff stepped out of the bedroom, armed with a gun. He ordered Bryson to get in the bedroom and take her clothes off. When she failed to comply, Kompkoff grabbed her by the jacket, threw her onto the bedroom floor, and struggled to remove her pants. As Bryson fought Kompkoff for control of the gun, it fired; the bullet struck her hand, severing a finger. Bryson then managed to escape.

    —–Soo long and involved…No more copy and paste.

  • Sally

    The treatment center was found responsible. I say it’s the courts fault for not keeping him in jail!!! The court didn’t protect society. I’M SOOOOOOOO ANGRY!

    “When he entered the program, Kompkoff had a 26-year criminal history involving alcohol abuse and sexual violence. His crimes included stabbings, assaults, rapes, and burglaries. His crimes were always preceded by heavy drinkingHeavy drinking. In one case, he broke into the home of a woman he met at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and raped her.”

  • @Sally; who and why is someone going to sue the cult? That (even if it failed) would be the publicity boost that would serve to keep minors and women away, especially the vulnerable in those categories.

  • Sally

    The victim was a patient in an outpatient treatment center, so was the perp (that had a long history of crime) . The victim sued the rehab after she was attacked by the perp. The rehab was found responsible in court judgement. (article which is easier to read)

    Just saying — I’m GLAD she sued the treatment center, and that she won! Definite exposure here, which is great. But, also just saying, the court that found the treatment center responsible had let the perp free (to begin with) after he had been busted numerous time for sexual and violent offenses. I know it’s a different story. I’m just so angry in general that I can’t even think straight. Warnings should be posted everywhere (at the very least) and encouragement of phone lists is just plain stupid.

    Anyway, I totally agree with you Hyacinth 🙂

    Peace, Sally

  • Will County, Illinois, October 18, 2010 By Steve Schmadeke

    Murder defendant left AA meeting early to shoot acquaintance, cop testifies

    “A Frankfort Square man accused of fatally shooting an acquaintance and stuffing her body in her car trunk allegedly left an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting early to commit the murder, a Will County police sergeant testified Monday.”

    “The testimony from Will County Sgt. Daniel Troike provided the first glimpse of a possible motive for the bizarre 2009 shotgun slaying of Monica Timar, 36, who may have been robbed of $2,500 she had gathered to file for bankruptcy.”

    “Police also found money under the cushions in Trainauskas’ couch, Troike said. He said Trainauskas told Timar it would cost about $2,500 to file for bankruptcy, and police never found the money on her or in her car. Police also found a cache of weapons, including a Desert Eagle semiautomatic pistol in a coffin-shaped case, two rifles, two swords, a black baton and ammunition, records show.”

  • Defendants full name is Brian Trainauskas.

  • Sally

    Foreclosure scam artist gets 7 plus years in federal prison
    “Mark Allen Davis must serve 81 months in prison and pay more than $328,000 in restitution,”….

    “Some of the accounts where he stashed the money were in the names of people he met through Alcoholics Anonymous, Assistant U.S. Attorney Andrew Caputo wrote in a sentencing memorandum.”

  • Sally

    Man accused of raping teen he met at AA center
    Police arrested a man Tuesday who was allegedly having sexual relations with a 13-year-old girl he met while she was waiting for her mother at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting

  • Sally

    Prosecutor: Neb. boy recanted story about mom sex–+National+News
    He and his wife took the boy to a counselor. The boy told the counselor that the abuse occurred while his mother was abusing prescription drugs, the father said. It was the counselor who reported the alleged sexual abuse to police.
    The woman was sentenced to a year of probation and ordered to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings as part of a deal with prosecutors

  • You are talking about 31 year old Vincente Ramirez in Salt Lake City Utah who was booked into the Salt Lake County Jail for investigation of two counts of rape of a child and one count of sodomy of a child that was reported by the Deseret News on Nov. 6, 2008 I am pretty sure.

  • Sally

    Yes, that’s him.

  • On the Foreclosure scam artist I believe that you are talking about Mark Allen Davis in San Francisco California that was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Jeffrey White in May of 2008 to 18 months because of stashing money he stole in accounts of names of people he met through Alcoholics Anonymous which Assistant U.S. Attorney Andrew Caputo wrote in a sentencing memorandum. I believe this was reported by By Henry K. Lee, Chronicle Staff Writer on May 31, 2008.

    It helps to get the full name of the defendant, city and state, dates, judges name, prosecutors name and charges because the links may disappear on websites, but court records stay around forever.

  • Sally

    OK 🙂

  • Sally

    ARRESTED AT STATION The Peterborough Examiner, 2010

    FRANCE -A Frenchman is facing drunk driving charges after taking his car to a police station to distribute Alcoholics Anonymous leaflets.
    Police said the man -who had a previous conviction for drunk driving -smelled of booze when he arrived to drop off the AA pamphlets. A blood test revealed the man had nearly double the permitted alcohol level. Now, he’s facing up to four years in jail and a fine greater than $14,000.

  • Honolulu, Hawaii – Honolulu police officer Boyd Kamikawa June 2011. Reported by hawaiinewsnow and msnbc

    April 2010, Boyd Kamikawa crashed into a pedestrian while his blood alcohol level was twice the legal limit with a suspended license. Officer Boyd Kamikawa’s sentencing was postponed until June 2011, so he could undergo substance abuse treatment and was sentenced to 30 days in jail, more than $1,000 in fines and 300 hours of community service.

  • BURLINGTON, Vermont, Reported 01/09/2008

    “Girl kept detailed diary of rapes by mother’s boyfriend”

    “Stacey Parnitzke, 40, and former boyfriend Shane Casey, 38, were arrested Friday in Vermont. They could get life in prison if convicted. Each pleaded not guilty to the same charge.”

    “Vermont State Police Detective Lance Burnham said he had never seen such a case.”

    “The father went to police in October after the 11-year-old girl told him that while living in England, Parnitzke would bring men home from Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and let them rape her beginning when she was 5.

    Investigators in California contacted Vermont authorities because the girl said Casey sexually assaulted her repeatedly.

    Burnham said he had been in contact with the authorities in Pontefract, England, about 150 miles (241 kilometers) north of London, but there was not enough evidence to begin a criminal investigation there.

    The girl also told investigators her mother sexually assaulted her, the documents said.

    More charges are possible against Parnitzke and Casey, Burnham said.

    Burnham said investigators retrieved the girl’s diary from storage in Vermont and had corroborated many of the things she wrote and spoke of.”

  • jrh-omg!!!!!!!!!I am stunned by this story. You are doing such great digging these days.
    How utterly frightening.
    I will read the whole article.

  • Sally

    Yeah. Wow!

  • Sally

    An AA “spokesperson” is in the news again asking reporters not to breech anonymity of members.

    They received another letter too, where AA cited “its long relationship with the country’s news outlets, saying that from the beginning, reporters had helped carry AA’s message of hope and recovery”.

    Drescher: Worthy group must enforce its own anonymity policy
    by John Drescher, Executive Editor @ May 21st, 2011

    “That [Eric Aing’es breech of anonymity] prompted two local members of Alcoholics Anonymous to educate me about AA’s policy of anonymity, which Ainge broke, and then to ask that we not publish the last names of people who identify themselves as AA members.
    AA this month sent a letter to news outlets asking them not to print the last names of AA members who identify themselves. AA also asked that we not publish photographs in which members’ faces could be recognized.

    In these two areas, we will not meet AA’s request.

    We won’t be able to meet AA’s request for anonymity in cases in which members identify themselves. But we will continue to carry AA’s message of hope and recovery.”

  • causeandeffect

    JR, how extremely tragic! These kinds to things always make me wonder, how do these people find each other. I mean, what do they do? Go to meetings and randomly ask members if they want to go home with them and molest their daughter? Do they have some kind of special nod or handshake? There must have been people in those meetings who knew this was going on and, as is usual in AA, said nothing. I hope she is able to get really good therapy.

  • Isabel Chavelo Gutierrez – No definite link yet, but most likely since he has a long list of priors in Dupage County Texas. Registered Sex Offender with a 7 year old in 1986 and he died raping a 77 year old on June 3, 2011.

    Isabel Chavelo Gutierrez, 53 , smelled of alcohol when he climbed into bed with her and held a pocket knife to the woman’s throat. He suffered a heart attack after riding his bicycle two miles to the 77 year old woman’s home and raping her.

  • Sally

    Evidence shown in N.H. murder investigation The Associated Press,, March 12, 2005

    Investigators found stains that may be blood at the Lempster home of Kenneth Carpenter, 53, who is charged with first-degree murder in the death of Meyer, 55, of Goshen…
    Authorities believe Carpenter killed Meyer and incinerated her body because she helped Carpenter’s girlfriend get a restraining order against him. Court records show Sandra Merritt, 45, broke off an 11-month affair with Carpenter in November and then accused him of stalking her.
    Carpenter, Meyer, and Merritt attended the same Alcoholics Anonymous group.

    Woman and her accused killer argued in court,0&CSAuthResp=%3Asession%3ACSUserId%7CCSGroupId%3Aapproved%3ABA4A9537C4BF4594E11F4B09D8217743&CSUserId=94&CSGroupId=1
    The Condord Press, April 7, 2005

    At a Dec. 13 court hearing, Edith “Pen”Meyer told a judge she was uncomfortable with the way Kenneth Carpenter got angry and swore at her when she urged him to stop harassing his ex-girlfriend and her friend, Sandra Merritt….

    In addition to testimony from Meyer, Carpenter and Merritt, the tape includes testimony from friends who attended meetings of the Newport chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous, where police records show much of the conflict between Carpenter and the two women revealed itself….

    Merritt, 45, who is from Newport, told the judge she broke off her 11-month relationship with Carpenter, who is married, on Nov. 17 and asked him not to contact her…..

    Frederick Evans, whom Carpenter sponsored in AA, testified on Merritt’s behalf. He filed his own restraining order against Carpenter because, he said, he felt threatened by him. A few days before the hearing, Evans said, Carpenter pushed his way into his home, demanding to know why Merritt filed a petition against him.

  • Sally

    Yet another case where the “disease” is blamed.
    Four-time DUI driver gets prison for Marin collisions
    By Gary Klien, Marin Independent Journal, June 6, 2011

    A group of [Jeffrey Alan ]Ciocca’s supporters came to court to ask for leniency, including his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor and a supervisor at Salvation Army, where Ciocca worked. They said Ciocca could be redeemed through rehabilitation if he were spared prison.

    “He’s a hard worker,” said Emily Jones, the Salvation Army worker. “He wants to do right, but unfortunately his addiction — his disease — got the better of him this time.”

    Chief Deputy Public Defender David Brown said Ciocca has “basically been homeless” since the age of 12 and had not been given adequate treatment for substance abuse.

    “He’s not a predator,” Brown said. “He’s not a danger to society.”

  • SoberPJ

    @ C&E .. Right… how does the conversation start? Seriously. What are the first words said and who says it that implies or announces that they have a five year old at home that they are willing to “share” with buddies? “Hey, you seem like a nice guy, wanna go back to my place and rape my 5 year old?” Think about it like you were trying to write dialog and scenes for a movie or play. What exactly gets said, when, and by whom all the way through. This is totally sick shit. Totally. And more than the people directly involved knew about it and they are complicit for not acting. Imagine if you had multiple people in your home group raping a young girl for years. Would it be a secret in that group? Hardly. Other people knew and they should do some time too. Sick, sick bastards.

  • Sally

    A Review of Alcoholics Anonymous/ Narcotics Anonymous Programs for Teens
    Steve Sussman

    Departments of Preventive Medicine and Psychology, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, USA,

    The investigation of the applicability of Alcoholics Anonymous/Narcotics Anonymous (AA/NA) for teens has only been a subject of empirical research investigation since the early 1990s. In the present review, the author describes teen involvement in AA/NA programming, provides an exhaustive review of the outcomes of 19 studies that used an AA/NA model as part of their formal teen substance abuse treatment programs, and provides data on the effects of AA/NA attendance on abstinence at follow-up, on which youth tend to become involved in AA/NA, and on mediation of the benefits of AA/NA participation. In addition, the author suggests the reasons for somewhat limited participation by teens in more informal, community-based 12-step meetings, and makes suggestions for maximizing participation at meetings in the community. The author concludes that AA/ NA participation is a valuable modality of substance abuse treatment for teens and that much can be done to increase teen participation, though more research is needed.

  • The Catholic Church is starting to take notice of Sexual Offenders in thier midst and take action about it as reported by the CNN Wire Staff June 17, 2011:

    “U.S. Catholic bishops revise guidelines against sex abuse”


    # The charter says child pornography is against church law
    # Critics say the charter does not go far enough
    # The Vatican says only a tiny percentage of priests abuse children
    # Pope Benedict XVI issued new rules last year aimed at stopping abuse

  • Sally

    New rules just last year? Only a tiny % is OK? Uggggg!

  • Wouldn’t it be nice if AA revised its corporate guidelines against sex abuse? Of course they will try and use the we are Spiritual not Religious argument. Many non profit organizations have been changing thier policy. Why should AA feel they do not have to address this issue? If it were addressed, it would make AA a much safer place.

  • Sally

    If they said it was spiritual not religious to that, I’d smack them. ..Yes JR it would be nice. Acknowledging that it exists would be the start. Then they have to do something. I really really hope I see that day before I die.

  • Hamilton, Ontario Canada reported by Ken Peters May 07 2011 – Raymond Bryan (49)

    “Addictions counsellor robbed banks to feed drug habit ”

    “When Raymond Bryan returns to his former career in just over two years, he’ll boast excellent on-the-job experience.”


    “Bryan actually got twin alcohol and drug addictions under control in 1992. He turned his negative experiences around and went on to become a successful drug counsellor in Simcoe, Hamilton and Toronto. At one point, he was happily married and earning $50,000 a year.

    But the drug demons returned. Last fall, Bryan had taken to both smoking and injecting himself with drugs when on Sept. 29 and 30, he robbed the TD Canada Trust at 100 King St. W. and the Teachers Credit Union on James Street South. Bryan received $200 in the first heist and $3,860 in the second. In both cases he brandished a utility knife and wore a red sun visor on his head. ”


    “His career and marriage in ruins, Bryan told Ontario Court Justice Bernd Zabel Friday he hopes to return to his counselling career.”–addictions-counsellor-robbed-banks-to-feed-drug-habit

  • Sally

    “robbed banks”…”brandished a utility knife and wore a red sun visor on his head ”
    Those are some principles I’d like in a counselor when I seek one out and try and turn my life around.

    “But the drug demons returned”
    Yes, the drug demons made me do it.

    I really can’t leave sarcasm out of some of my comments. :0

  • BOISE, Idaho – Senator John McGee, well known DUI prevention Advocate arrested for DUI and Grand theft on jun 19, 2011. reported by Associated Press.

    “So far, police have released only a few details of events preceding McGee’s arrest. But Lt. Kody Aldrich told The Associated Press that McGee did not know the owner of the SUV and trailer that he was driving and later was found by police sleeping inside. The vehicle and trailer became stuck as McGee tried backing into the yard of a home on southwest Boise. It was also unclear why McGee was in the Boise area in Ada County”

    Read more:

    Senator John McGee introduced SENATE BILL NO. 1291 in 2006:

    “S1291…………………………………………………… MCGEE
    DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE – Adds to and amends existing law to provide for the seizure and impoundment of vehicles of persons convicted for multiple violations of driving under the influence of alcohol, drugs or other intoxicating substances; to provide for notice; to provide for treatment of the vehicle if subject to forfeiture; to set forth requirements for release of the vehicle; to provide for disposition of the vehicle if the owner or operator is not convicted; to provide a cause of action by the registered owner; to provide for immunity from liability; to provide for forfeiture of a vehicle; to provide for forfeiture proceedings; and to provide for the sale of the vehicle and distribution of the

    This should be interesting……………..

  • ELKTON, Md – Ethan Adam Younce, 22 – Being sent to Rehab – July 20,2011

    “An Elkton man serving a 10-year prison term for slicing an acquaintance’s anus and buttocks in a drug-related attack has a chance at early release after a judge granted a motion to transfer him to drug rehabilitation center.

    Retired Cecil County Circuit Court Judge O. Robert Lidums granted the request made by Ethan Adam Younce, 22, during a hearing last week.

    Younce has served about 2 ½ years of his 10-year term, which he received after pleading guilty to first-degree assault in May 2009 as part of a deal in which prosecutors dropped attempted second-degree murder and related charges.

    Lidums imposed a maximum 25-year sentence on Younce and suspended 15 years of it at the time.”


    “If he successfully completes the program in six months, he’s out. One year, he’s out. Eighteen months, he’s out,” Halter said. “There’s no set time.”


    “Younce, then 19, cut the man with a folding razor-style knife because he believed he had drug money or a bag of crack cocaine hidden in his rectum, according to prosecutors, who estimated that the purported drugs had a street value of $50.”

    Read full report:

  • sally

    A merchant’s murky past
    Kennebec Journal, June 23, 2011 – Kennebec ME
    Meanwhile, a Portland lawyer filed a civil complaint Wednesday in Cumberland County Superior Court alleging Hibbert stole money from a mentally ill woman struggling with alcoholism.

    ‘Tortured this woman’

    According to the complaint filed by Thomas Cox, Hibbert stole thousands of dollars over a three-year period from Krista Johnson, of Bailey Island, after meeting her at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.

    According to Cox, Hibbert in 2005 began holding himself out as “having experience and expertise in the management of money and property” after learning Johnson had inherited $90,000 and her lifelong home on Bailey Island from her father.

  • sally

    Link for the above article
    Offender: Thomas Hibbert

  • sally

    Wadena social worker charged with sex crimes
    Wadena Pioneer Journal, June 20, 2011 – Park Rapids,

    A chemical dependency counselor [Todd Michael Anderson] with Wadena County Human Services faces seven criminal charges amid accusations he provided alcohol and drugs to a client in his care and also had sexual contact with one of the boys.

    According to court documents, an 18-year-old man received a Facebook friend request from Anderson, who was the young man’s chemical dependency counselor. The 18-year-old accepted the request, figuring Anderson was checking in on his chemical dependency progress. Instead, Anderson suggested on May 31 that they get together for “some fun and a private counseling session,” court records said. The 18-year-old said he was at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. Later that night, Anderson again requested they get together, and shortly after, showed up at the 18-year-old’s camper with rum, marijuana, music and playing cards. The 18-year-old told police Anderson loaded the marijuana pipe, and asked if the 18-year-old if he would perform sexual favors on him. When the 18-year-old refused, Anderson performed sexual favors on him, then eventually left. The 18-year-old described a similar sexual encounter on the following day.

    After that incident, Anderson told the 18-year-old “you can’t tell anyone” and “I can pull strings and [expletive] your life up.”

  • sally

    Swimmer charged in sexual assault gets probation in plea deal
    Deal keeps victim from having to testify…by Glenn Wohltmann
    Danville Express News, June 24, 2011 –

    A 21-year-old graduate of San Ramon Valley High School and former swimmer at UC Davis [Pierce Hunter] has been convicted of a felony in connection with an attack on a young woman in her dorm room last year.

    During his probation, he will have to register as sex offender, receive sex offender counseling and attend meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous during his probation. The sexual battery charge will be dismissed if Hunter successfully completes probation.

    Yolo County District Attorney Jeff W. Reisig confirmed that following the young woman’s report of the attack, two other women came forward with similar stories.

  • sally

    Accused drunken driver claimed he was coming from an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting at the time of deadly January crash, deputy testifies
    Published: Monday, June 27, 2011, 12:47 PM Updated: Monday, June 27, 2011, 1:12 PM

    Michael Iannettoni told authorities he was on his way home from an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting as he sat in his vehicle after crashing head-on into another car on Buckley Road Jan. 9, a deputy testified in court today.

  • Alcoholics Anonymous killed my marriage
    By Janine Di Giovanni
    Last updated at 11:36 PM on 29th June 2011
    An acclaimed war reporter, JANINE DI GIOVANNI fell head over heels for a hard-drinking rival. Their love survived many battles, except one

    I went to an AA Christmas party, and while everyone was friendly and welcoming, it was clear they set a wall between ‘us and them’.

    Like many wives living with alcoholic husbands, I was not an addict or an alcoholic and, therefore, I was an outsider. I could never understand their suffering, their pain. Bruno changed, too. While he stayed sober, he stopped seeing our friends and he stopped socialising with the world that was not AA.

    People were either ‘my cult’ as he jokingly called them or ‘not my cult’.
    By that he meant non-alcoholics – meaning me.

    It was a no-win situation – I wanted desperately for my husband to survive and be sober, but I did not want to lose him to the smelly hall of The American Church on Quai d’Orsay where he seemed to enter another world. The world of AA.

    I met a lovely woman at an AA party who spelt it out for me. ‘It’s amazing that you guys are still together,’ she said. ‘Most people who get sober find it impossible to carry on with the relationship they had while they were drinking.’

    I went to Al Anon, the support group for loved ones of alcoholics, and hated it.
    It met in a church on a Saturday afternoon. The people argued about who made the tea and who cleaned up. When I tried to talk, a stern woman kept interrupting me.
    ‘You have to say, hello, my name is Janine and I am the spouse of an alcoholic,’ she kept repeating in a robotic voice.
    So I said it, and every time, the group would say, ‘Welcome Janine!’ like happy morons, and it was too weird. I fled in tears halfway through.

  • @Sally, we need a list of every journalist who has ever troubled to look into AA. I have a sort of list but we need to build it and use it to promote the film. 🙂

  • Not sure where to post this. I heard on the BBC World Service about a forthcoming documentary about ‘The Big House’ and I wondered if Melvin Sembler was involved.

    It is a ruthless program, mainly for aborigines. SWAMIBEDPAN! Do you know about this stuff?

  • @ Watch, hmmm. That’s very interesting. Are you in the U.S? Is your list so far of U.S. journalists? I can help you with this but from what I’ve seen, most (like the one’s on KCB) just print the facts and I think they are even reluctant to mention AA sometimes. The bigger papers seem to want nothing to do with exposing AA. They fear for their jobs I think. I’ve written to two already (small papers) and did get a response from one. That’s real good odds and didn’t expect that.

  • Swamibedpan

    @Watch Surviving Straight Inc, Yes I know a little. It can’t be taken out of historical context. Firstly the indigenous (aboriginal) community has been devastated by alcoholism for generations. They are a race of people with little or no defence and can very quickly descend into serious alcohol abuse. For that reason many tribal areas are totally alcohol free and this is rigorously adhered to. They have a very high rate of imprisonment and tragically deaths in custody. It is known that some indigenous men simply die in prison for no apparent reason. It is said that their spirit leaves them when they are locked up.There is a high rate of recidivism meaning once they are in the prison system they keep coming back. This boot camp type rehab seems to me an attempt to try something else out of sheer desperation to change things. It does sound ruthless and probably wide open to abuse.
    i don’t like the sound of it. I can understand the frustration that leads people to be willing to try anything but to me military style rehabilitation is not culturally appropriate to these guys needs or probably anyone.
    There are indigenous rehabs, I don’t have any stats on them but I know a white guy who went to one, loved it and is now 5 years sober.
    The Sembler trail here is pretty cold, I don’t know if he did anything Straight Inc wise while he was ambassador. i might be wrong though. I can definitely remember the appearance of couple Straight Inc type outfits in New Zealand in the early to mid nineties. These were aimed at getting polynesian street kids off the street. Military style drills, uniforms etc.Tough love without the love. Is it a coincidence that this happened while Sembler was in Australia?

  • Accused driver who had body in car out on bail

    Fadel Steadman’s mother was incredulous after hearing Friday that the man accused of causing a gruesome drunken driving crash that killed her son earlier this week will remain free on bail as long as he does not drive or drink.

    “They just cut him a slice of cake, and he walked off,” said Toni Steadman. “What I have is going to be with me for the rest of my life — no one can bring back my son.”

    A deputy who stopped James John Onak, 49, early Tuesday said the bloodied body of 32-year-old Steadman was in the passenger seat, apparently after going through the shattered windshield.

    Onak was arrested and charged with felony failure to stop and render aid involving a fatality and driving while intoxicated. He was free Thursday after posting $50,500 bail. Prosecutors said the amount was $20,000 more than the standard bail for similar charges.

    State District Judge Kevin Fine said Onak must have a monitoring station in his home to check his blood alcohol level three times a day. He also must attend daily Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.

  • Ex Cons Make Great Employees
    By Janel Lubanski Hawaii Business / July 2011 /
    The Laumaka Work Furlough Center offers housing and treatment programs to convicts for up to a year before they are fully released from confinement. While they are at Laumaka, they must be willing and able to work at least 30 hours a week, pay rent, use no drugs, alcohol or cell phones, and stay free of misconduct.

    “Ninety-five percent of our residents have had substance-abuse history, so we require all residents to participate in two AA or NA (Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous) support-group meetings as part of their stay requirements,” says Laumaka’s Rochelle Nieto, who handles transition counseling. Those who aren’t former substance abusers must find other support groups.

  • Pingback: “Reassessing Anonymity in 12 Step Programs” – Stinkin' Thinkin'()

  • Sally

    Convicted Armstrong bank robber could serve up to 5 years
    By Leader Times Wednesday, July 13, 2011

    “A Plumcreek man was sentenced last week to 18 months to five years in a state prison for robbing two banks last year.

    In both instances, police said, Bruner told bank tellers he was armed and wanted money. According to court documents, Bruner received $26,864 in both robberies, and about $19,000 was recovered by police. The defendant reportedly told police he spent several thousand dollars on instant lottery tickets, oxycodone pills, prepaid cell phones and a Steelers T-shirt.”

    Kind of funny that some of the unrecovered 6k$ went to a T-shirt.

  • Sally

    For the above post:

    John Bruner, 33, was ordered to pay $3,121 in restitution to the banks and to attend Alcoholics/Narcotics Anonymous meetings.

  • Sally

    Maine man charged in killing in Lewiston
    Published 01:56 p.m., Friday, July 15, 2011 – San Antonio

    LEWISTON, Maine (AP) — Prosecutors have brought a murder charge against a man following the discovery of a woman’s decomposing body in the basement of his apartment building in Maine’s second-largest city.

    Twenty-year-old Bob Ryder of Lewiston was already being held at the Androscoggin County Jail on a probation violation. On Friday, he was charged with murder.

    A Maine State Police affidavit filed in Androscoggin County Superior Court on Friday indicated 38-year-old Danita Brown died from blunt force trauma.

    According to the affidavit, Ryder told his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor that he hit Brown with a clock, and buried her body in the corner of the basement under his first-floor unit. The Sun Journal newspaper says the Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor alerted police Monday night

  • Sally

    Woman accused of driving home with a scooter wedged under her car is sentenced today

    CLEARWATER – A St. Petersburg woman charged with two DUI’s in as many months will learn her sentence today.

    Police say 22 year old Jessica Eddy hit a man on a motor scooter in October of last year and continued to drive with the scooter wedged beneath her car. Bruce Barber Junior was critically injured, but will recover.

    One week after the parents of Barber Jr. got a call that their son had been hit by the alleged drunk driver, they asked Pinellas County Judge Donald Horrox to keep Eddy locked up. In a court hearing, Bruce Barber senior told the judge, “She’s 22 years old sir, 22 years old and it’s her third DUI. She almost killed a person.”

    Besides two DUI charges in Pinellas County, Eddy was also charged with DUI in California.

    Aside from the Barber family, Eddy’s mother, Marsha Eddy, was also in court that day. She asked for her daughters bond to be reduced. Marsha Eddy also said her daughter was a student, had a 4.0 grade point average, and went to alcoholics anonymous meetings.

    Victoria Barber, the accident victim’s mother told Judge Horrox, that it was clear the meetings did not work. Judge Horrox decided to revoke the woman’s bond from the DUI charge on August the 22nd.

  • AnnaZed

    @Sally, the best part of the Ryder case is quoted here:

    “…His [AA] sponsor waited two and a half weeks before calling police because he was worried about breaking AA’s confidentiality agreement.”

    Insane! What fucking confidentiality agreement? In what world would such an agreement even if it existed be binding?

  • Rick

    Here’s another small piece on the Lewiston, Maine killing. It’s great that the sponsor called the police, but he didn’t get in any hurry about it. Seems he was more concerned about breaking those precious traditions than reporting a murder…

    “According to the police affidavit, Bob Ryder, 21, told his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor that he had killed Brown by hitting her in the head with a wooden clock. His sponsor waited two and a half weeks before calling police because he was worried about breaking AA’s confidentiality agreement.”

  • Rick

    Sorry for the double post AnnaZed. I was assuming he somehow twisted anonymity into a “confidentiality agreement”, but his thinking may not have had anything to do with the traditions.

  • Sally

    Yeah really! “Here future sponsor, sign this agreement and we’ll be right on way”????

    And that’s an awful thing to put on another person anyway! Telling them (a sponsor) something as terrible as this and putting the pressure on them to do or not to do the right thing. I think it clearly shows fucked up AA is, but it won’t be taken that way.

  • Pingback: AA Deception and Plausible Deniability – Stinkin' Thinkin'()

  • Sally

    Man pleas guilty to theft in scheme connected with Alcoholics Anonymous
    3:25 PM, Jul. 21, 2011

    A man accused of defrauding 22 Larimer County investors, gaining trust through Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, pleaded guilty to theft Thursday morning.

    Nine related charges were dropped against Richard Horace Mayfield, 72, when he accept an agreement with prosecutors to one plea of theft amounting to $1,000 to $20,000. The Class IV felony is punishable by up to six years in prison and fines up to $500,000.

    His arrest affidavit shows bank records indicating Mayfield would take thousands of dollars from one investor the same day he would pay another, which is typical of a Ponzi scheme. Many of the alleged victims are senior citizens, and one is 100 years old. Investments totaled $466,496, and roughly half of that was distributed in checks labeled “refund,” “royalty” or “interest.” About nine people actually made a profit, according to the affidavit.

    William Nies, one of the alleged victims, previously told the Coloradoan that he met Mayfield in Alcoholics Anonymous in 2001 and had attended the same daily meetings. Nies said Mayfield approached him about a “no-risk” investment opportunity.

    “I trusted him completely,” Nies previously said, adding that Mayfield is a “pathological liar.”

    “He says, ‘I’ve got this investment, and I want you to have this because I like you.’ … He invaded the AA fellowship and used the fellowship for his own purpose,” Nies said.

    Mayfield ran The Maverick Sales Group and Richard H. Mayfield and Associates between the mid-1990s and 2010, conducting business that ostensibly sold products to help sales people. The $99 “solution” sold on a now-defunct website was a two-page description of “Jesus/religion” being the answer to sales-call reluctance, along with a link to a free book on a non-associated website, according to his arrest affidavit.

  • Sally

    I just saw this was posted back in April. Sorry for the double post.

  • Sally

    Man shot by police charged, identified
    27-year-old father of three faces list of charges Suspect was on bail–man-shot-by-police-charged-identified
    Published: July 29, 2011 2:10 a.m.

    A taxi robbery suspect recently shot and wounded by police in St. Vital was wanted on two arrest warrants at the time, police said Thursday.

    Twenty-seven-year-old John Charlette faces a slew of charges in connection to the July 21 confrontation that police said led them to open fire, and he has been moved from a hospital bed to a provincial remand cell.

    While police added little to the details of the alleged robbery and subsequent confrontation with officers, court transcripts show the suspect was on bail in the community while facing trial next year for a number of offences, including impaired driving and possession of property obtained by crime.

    The Crown opposed setting him free, citing the suspect’s “long and unenviable” criminal record and history of thumbing his nose at court orders.

    Court heard Charlette, a father of three young kids, was attending Alcoholics Anonymous.

  • Sally

    Judge gives break in Pasco DUI manslaughter case
    By Molly Moorhead, Times Staff Writer
    Saturday, July 30, 2011

    NEW PORT RICHEY — Ronald Gramling, sick with throat cancer and deep in a pit of depression, caused a crash in 2008 that killed a mother of two young children.

    He was charged with vehicular homicide in the death of Denise Anne Dennis, 35

    Only then did he enter a residential treatment facility to begin battling his demons. In April, he pleaded no contest in the vehicular homicide case, and on Friday he came to court to learn his sentence.

    Gramling, 40, faced up to 15 years in prison. His attorney, Chris Frey, asked the judge to allow him to complete his treatment.

    Lloyd Paine, director of the treatment center in Sarasota where Gramling has been living, testified that it took 12 days of detox before Gramling could even begin therapy. He was emaciated from cancer and “in bad shape on prescription medications.”

  • Sally

    Sorta cute comic book script. AA could mean abducted personalities. I like the link.

    Williamson Gets Out There With “Xenoholics”

    And, unlike a certain sci-fi TV show from the 90s, in the case of the October-debuting Image Comics’ “Xenoholics,” readers will actually get to see what that truth is. The series, written by Joshua Williamson and drawn by Seth Damoose, revolves around a self-help group that fully believes in aliens; many think they’ve been abducted while others believe in different alien conspiracies — but not everyone’s telling the truth.

    “Xenoholics” starts off small with a group of believers and gets bigger and more widespread as events unfold that will either prove or disprove the actual existence of extraterrestrials. And guess what? They’re real. CBR News spoke with Williamson about how he combined an old story with a new one to come up with his new series, the perks of working with Damoose and his hope to put out a comic that is unlike anything else out there.

    “One of the main characters is a guy named Kyle,” Williamson told CBR. “Kyle is a mystery; he doesn’t really share what happened to him with the group. The whole idea of this book is a self-help group like Alcoholics Anonymous for people who believe in aliens or believe they were abducted. They’re trying to prove that they were abducted.

    “This idea of ‘what if aliens are real and [these people] believe they were abducted,’ people don’t understand it. They’re not lying, in their minds,” Williamson said. “Then, something happens. This event happens and the whole world has to accept the possibility that they might not be crazy. It really is a big mystery. All of the characters in the book, we don’t know — I know, but the readers won’t know at first — who is telling the truth and who is lying.”

  • Sally

    July 29, 2011
    Jensen receives probation for attack

    Huntsville man sentenced to seven years probation, 200 hours of community service for attack on elderly woman
    By Cody Stark Staff Reporter The Huntsville Item

    Gary Jason Jensen received a probated sentence for his felony conviction of recklessly causing bodily injury to an elderly person Friday afternoon.

    Through a plea deal with the Walker County District Attorney’s office, Jensen was given seven years probation and 200 hours of community service for his role in an incident that left 72-year-old Norma Bienvenue with a severely broken ankle in 2009.

    As part of Jensen’s probation, he will have to attend anger management and Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and he cannot consume alcohol.

  • Sally

    SENTENCED TO TREATMENT TWICE…If treatment doesn’t wash the first time, try and try again. Nice legal system.

    Woman hits car, Glencoe laundry with her van; probation revoked
    By Cyndi Nelson Times Associate Editor Published: Friday, July 29, 2011

    GLENCOE — An Albertville woman had her probation revoked Friday after she hit a car parked at a coin-operated laundry — and then hit the laundry.

    Glencoe Police Chief David Colvard said about 9:30 a.m. Friday, Suzanne Greer Johnson, 41, was in a front-wheel-drive van when she “came up” at the Big Chief Drive-in restaurant. She did not stop there but went across the street to an adjacent strip mall with a coin-operated laundry at the end. There, Colvard said, she struck a car and then hit the windows in the laundry.
    In addition to new charges of driving with a restricted license, DUI, violating the open-container law (alcohol in a vehicle) and the probation violation, Glencoe Municipal Judge James Shelnutt instated Johnson’s sentence from her previous appearance before him.

    A release from the judge’s office states Johnson appeared Feb. 16 in Glencoe Municipal Court. She and the prosecution agreed to a deferred sentence on charges of third-degree domestic violence. She was required to complete an Intensive Outpatient Program for substance abuse, to avoid arrest and to refrain from using alcohol. Compliance would have meant dismissal of the domestic violence charged.

    Instead, Shelnutt instated Johnson’s sentence after her arrest Friday, which includes a fine plus court costs; serving 60 days in the county jail; receiving an additional 120 suspended days; being required to enroll in and complete Intensive Outpatient Classes; being required to complete domestic violence classes; being required to attend a minimum of 50 Alcoholics Anonymous meetings; being required to complete anger management classes; and being on probation for 24 months.

  • Sally, Great digging here.

  • Sally


  • Sally

    More Teens in AA.

    Courts: Teens Sentenced in Alcohol Offenses
    By Sara Eaton Martin August 4, 2011

  • San Diego California takes a hard look at Police Officers who exhibit Alcoholic Symptoms and sentence them to AA. This time with tragic consequences:

    San Diego police officer charged in hit-and-run is found dead – August 2, 2011 by admin

    “A San Diego police officer facing hit-and-run and drunk driving charges was found dead in the backyard of his home Monday morning, apparently of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, authorities said.

    David Hall, 41, was discovered slumped against the rear wall of his home in the Clairemont Mesa neighborhood of San Diego. His wife called police shortly after the 10 a.m. shooting.

    Hall, a motorcycle officer, was off duty in February when he allegedly struck another car on a freeway onramp, injuring a female passenger, and fled the scene. Police later arrested him at his home. He was awaiting trial after pleading not guilty in May.”


    “After his arrest, Hall was ordered by a judge to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. Police Chief William Lansdowne said Hall had met with a mental health professional Sunday and was scheduled to appear in court again Thursday for a pretrial hearing.

    “The San Diego Police Department was very aware of the stress he was under and had taken every effort to get Officer Hall the help he needed,” Lansdowne said. “Unfortunately, even with the help and support provided, Officer Hall unexpectedly decided to take his own life.”

    Regardless if the officer was guilty or not, he was ordered to AA by the court. Police officers have a hard job and to be forced into AA meetings prior to conviction seems like a recipe for disaster. The concept of Anonymity in an AA meeting, where often times illegal incidents are shared, along with the fact that they may have arrested or ticketed the other members is a big stressor. It appears that they are going to be looking for more officers to be doing the same thing to “get them the help they need.” While I have investigated many police officers who have been on the other side of the law, I do not believe that AA is a form of “help they need”, and the fact that he may be an alpha male is also extremely dangerous since they are trained to take action, not rely on a spiritual “higher power.” Hobbling an officer like this prior to a conviction will definitely cause major stress that was not needed at this point.

  • Sally

    5 years after woman vanishes, ‘there’s a lot of anger now’
    By ROCCO LaDUCA Observer-Dispatch Aug 03, 2011

    UTICA —

    More than five years after 27-year-old Michelle Hutchings vanished on the streets of Utica, the Clinton woman’s mother is now more angry than ever that her daughter’s killer still hasn’t been brought to justice.

    Investigators long ago concluded that Hutchings was likely killed sometime after she was dropped off on Bleecker Street after attending a “narcotics anonymous” meeting in Utica. But while investigators have a list of suspects and scenarios they’ve been looking at, their occasional searches for Hutchings’ body have uncovered nothing.

    As this year began with a new administration under county Sheriff Robert Maciol, county Undersheriff Robert Swenszkowski said he sees more promise in where the investigation is now heading after Pfendler’s departure.

    “The investigation is definitely more focused at this time,” Swenszkowski said after recently meeting with Seelman. “I think together, the support of our administration and where the Criminal Investigation Unit wanted to go with this investigation, that’s really made the focus where it is now.”

  • Utica is in Mohawk Valley in Oneida County, New York. Michelle Hutchings.

    Hutchings was last seen around 11:45 p.m. July 30, 2006, in the 1400 block of Bleecker Street in East Utica New York.

    This is a cold case that hit the web shortly after Micelle’s disappearance. The links are about to be revived and need to. There are various NA meetings on Bleecker Street in New York. The anonymity of 12 Step programs are being questioned due to the murder of Danita Brown by Bob Ryder in Lewiston Maine who told his sponsor about the murder who took over 2 weeks to go to the police with this information. Chances are that there are many stories like this in the NA rooms of Utica told to sponsors that can shed light on this disappearance. NA or any 12 Step program should is not immune from being questioned by police or investigators, and should be held accountable if NA Sponsors or NA members are withholding information in Utica New York about Michelle Hutchings.

    If anyone knows of any information about the disappearance of Michelle Hutchings they are urged to call the Oneida County Sheriff’s Office 315-765-2244.

  • Law teacher, 33, videotaped herself raping 16-year-old male student in motel, say police by By Paul Thompson 7th August 2011 – Long Island, NY

    “Tara Driscoll, 33, of Bayshore, Long Island, was arrested after police obtained a copy of the video film showing her performing sex acts on the 16-year-old boy.

    Police said the boy, a student at Campus Magnet High School in Cambria Heights, Queens, confessed to having sex with Driscoll after being confronted by his mother.”


    “Driscoll was charged with third-degree rape and third-degree criminal sexual act.

    She has been a teacher with the school for five years and was re-assigned from classroom duties after the allegations first surfaced in May.

    An order of protection has been issued for the boy.

    Defence attorney Virginia Lopreto declined comment.

    Prosecutors allege Driscoll has a history of alcohol abuse and was recently in rehab.”

  • Swamibedpan

    What i find interesting here is that it is the prosecutors mentioning alcohol abuse and rehab and not the defence. Is it suggesting that rehab is part of the problem/cause here and not part of any solution to her behaviour?

  • Swamibedpan

    Also i guess of interest here is that in this case the perpetrator is female and the victim male, not the usual scenario. Still a crime in the eyes of the law but I noticed some of the comments at the original article implied that nothing untoward occurred and the boy should be grateful. Funny old world.

  • Woodland California – Former UCD student gets probation, jail time in sexual assault case – June 27th, 2011 | Posted by Lauren Keene

    “WOODLAND — A former UC Davis student accused of attempted rape pleaded no contest to charges of felony sexual assault and dissuading a witness earlier this month, according to the Yolo County District Attorney’s Office.

    Pierce Hunter, 19, was sentenced by Yolo Superior Court Judge Stephen Mock to 150 days in county jail and five years of felony probation, Chief Deputy District Attorney Jonathan Raven said.

    The plea agreement also calls for Hunter to undergo sexual counseling, register as a sex offender during the term of probation and attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings three times a week.

    If he successfully completes his probation, Hunter will have the opportunity to withdraw his plea on the sexual assault count, Raven said.”

  • Washington mental health counselor LaVerne Jones suspended for sending nude cellphone pics to client – Posted on May 4, 2010

    “On April 8, 2010, the Washington State Department of Health (DoH) suspended the registration of registered counselor LaVerne Jones for a period of at least two years, during which he has no right to seek reinstatement of his credential.

    According to the DoH document, Jones provided counseling services to “Client A” in both an inpatient and outpatient setting between February and August 2008. In September and November of that year, the client attended “transition services” through the facility where she was receiving treatment. Transition service included the client’s participation in Narcotics/Alcoholics Anonymous (NA/AA). During this period, Jones and the client communicated with each through personal cell phone calls and text messages. One such message Jones sent the client contained two nude photographs of himself holding his erect penis. Also during this period, Jones went to the client’s residence and visited with the client for approximately one hour.

    In November 2008, the client attended a NA/AA meeting with other clients from the treatment center. During the meeting, the client showed the nude photos of Jones to other clients in attendance.

    On or about September 11, 2009, Jones was convicted of Assault in the 4th Degree, a gross misdemeanor, in Yakima County, Case No. 09-1-00684-4.

    Source: Stipulated Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law and Agreed Order in the Matter of Laverne J. Jones, credential no. RC00044067, case no. M2009-819, Washington Department of Health Secretary of Health, April 8, 2010.”


  • Fraser Michigan – Fraser woman with six drunken driving convictions jailed – August 10, 2011

    “A 56-year-old Fraser woman with six drunk driving convictions was sentenced by a Macomb County judge Tuesday to two years probation, with the first 30 days in the county jail.

    Shelley Bliss must report to the Macomb County Jail at 9 a.m. Thursday to serve up to 26 days in jail (minus four days for time-served) following her sentencing by Circuit Judge Diane Druzinski in Mount Clemens.

    Bliss in June pleaded guilty to her sixth drunk driving, and in the plea deal the judge dismissed charges of violation of license restrictions and ignition interlock device violations.

    Bliss on May 12 drove her vehicle into the garage of her Fraser home. Her blood-alcohol content was .22 percent.

    On probation, she must attended Alcoholics Anonymous meetings three times per week , complete therapy at the Eastwood Clinic, serve 60 days of community service, court records say. Her vehicle was forfeited. She must pay a fine and nearly $2,000 in other costs.

    Bliss’ last drunk driving conviction was 1997. She drove drunk or impaired in Warren, Royal Oak, Oak Park and twice in Ferndale.”

  • Swamibedpan

    Clearly then the 12 step religion is the official state religion of America as she has not been sentenced to any of the other religions that say they don’t drink either. Like Islam in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan under the Taliban, America now has a faith which pulls rank above all others and is formally endorsed by the state. Steppism the official religion of America, congratulations.

  • Sally

    Counselor accused of having sex with teen patient
    (Copyright ©2011 KTRK-TV/DT. All Rights Reserved.) Thursday, August 11, 2011

    HOUSTON (KTRK) — A substance abuse counselor is accused of having sex with one of her patients — a 16-year-old boy — and police say it happened more than once.

    According to police, the counselor and her patient had attended an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting on a July night after which they went ‘parking.’ When police arrived, the whole alleged relationship began to unravel.

    Until Tuesday, Amanda Leann Kueht was a drug and alcohol recovery counselor. Now she’s a defendant, arrested Tuesday night by West University Place police. Now Kueht, 28, is charged with sexual assault of a child under 17.

  • Luckily Amanda Leann Kueht in Texas was caught sexually abusing a teenager under her care that she brought to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. 28 year old Kueht was a counselor having sexual relations with a teenager and most likely her parents thought they were doing the right thing. Parents should be aware that whenever they send their teens to Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous meetings there are court ordered sex offenders in these meetings that are anonymous and other members of AA and NA will cover it up and the fact that they are dangerous. This can be shown by the cover up of the Danita Brown murder by AA members in Lewiston Maine for over 2 weeks. If AA and NA members will hesitate to report a murder because of some false sense of Anonymity in the fellowship, there is a very good chance that they will cover up and not report the sexual assault of a teen in AA or NA. Aa and NA are not safe places for teens or pre-teens.

  • Sally

    “Court documents state the teen also told police that he had other sexual relations with Kueht during a retreat with his recovery group in Idaho”.

    Also, Amanda Kueht (Amanda Leann Kueht) was on a retreat with a recovery group and engaged in sexual activity with the underage victim there. Who sponsored this retreat? Which recovery group was it?

  • Los Angeles (LA) and Orange County Califorina Community Care Facilities Proposed Ordinance CF 11-0262. Common sense to protect land values and personal safety of the community. – July 25, 2011 11:24 am | no comments

    “Councilmember Greig Smith teamed up with Sherwood Forest residents to force a sober living home out of their neighborhood. They staged several protests and various city officials conducted repeated inspections until the owners gave up and hired a lawyer. A lawsuit was threatened and eventually the issue was forgotten.

    Also in 2004 Smith first motioned for local control over perceived problem group homes, citing California Health and Safety Code sections 11834.2 – 11834.25 governing state licensed drug and alcohol treatment centers that allow up to six residents in any zone. He wanted an “inventory and map of all group homes including, but not limited to half-way houses, parolee placement home and alcohol or drug abuse recovery/treatment homes” and “to address the problem that many of these homes exceed the maximum number of occupants allowed.” That motion died after two years of inactivity.”

    I wonder if the Shorecrest Homeowners Association in Miami Florida battling with the Little River Club on zoning issues know about this?

    The 2004 motion demonstrates ignorance of the continuum of recovery and groups several typically undesirable types of people together as though there may be a common one-size-fits-all solution. This confusion is understandable for a freshman legislator (Smith was first elected in 2003). Apparently he never quite grasped the differences in the groups of people he sought to regulate – even after eight years.”

  • Ooops – I added “Common sense to protect land values and personal safety of the community. ” and “I wonder if the Shorecrest Homeowners Association in Miami Florida battling with the Little River Club on zoning issues know about this?” It didn’t post right when I hit enter……

  • SoberPJ
  • Sally

    I wasn’t expecting that on the kcb thread. What a riot!

  • Belfast Maine – Woman accused of driving with 0.34 percent blood alcohol in June arrested again. By Abigail Curtis, BDN Staff Posted Aug. 12, 2011

    “BELFAST, Maine — A woman arrested earlier this summer for allegedly causing a three-car accident while driving with 0.34 percent blood alcohol content found herself in more alcohol-related trouble this week.

    Elizabeth H. Hyde, 25, of Belfast, reportedly was picked up by her boyfriend for an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting Tuesday morning. When the boyfriend realized that she was intoxicated, according to Belfast Police Chief Jeff Trafton, he decided to drive her to the hospital to obtain help for her alcohol use. But Hyde did not want to go.

    “She was very belligerent,” Trafton said.

    Hyde allegedly tried to jump out of the moving vehicle and also bit, kicked and punched her boyfriend while he was driving. She then reportedly attempted to assault police officers who came to assist and also the corrections officers at Waldo County Jail, where she was taken. Hyde eventually was placed in the jail’s restraint chair, Trafton said.”

  • Sally

    Drunk admits to licking pub boss BY HAZEL SLADE

    A 31-year-old man who was dubbed ‘disgusting’ after licking the face of a landlady who tried to kick him out of a pub has pleaded guilty to assault.

    Ben Nurse, of Foxworth Avenue, Nottingham, also admitted criminal damage at Bedford Magistrates’ Court on Tuesday after breaking the window of the Lord Roberts Pub, in Sandy, during the same incident last month.

    Since this offence he has started voluntarily attending Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.

    He is very sorry.”

  • Massachusetts – New Bedford man fatally stabbed outside church AA meeting – Posted by Martin Finucane October 21, 2010

    “By Jeff Fish, Globe Correspondent

    A New Bedford man was arrested early this morning on charges that he fatally stabbed a Fairhaven man outside of an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting held at a New Bedford church, Bristol County prosecutors said today.

    Twenty-two-year-old Jonathan Keith Niemic was arrested around 3:10 a.m. at an apartment complex on Rockaway Street and was charged with murdering 34-year-old Michael Correia, the Bristol district attorney’s office said in a statement.

    New Bedford police responded to 911 calls around 7:45 p.m. and found Correia with life-threatening injuries outside the Pilgrim United Church of Christ on Purchase Street. He died later from his wounds at St. Luke’s Hospital in New Bedford, the statement said.

    Niemic was arraigned in New Bedford District Court. He was ordered held without bail and a pre-trial hearing was slated for Dec. 10, said district attorney’s spokesman Gregg Miliote.”

  • Steven & Linda Vigil Passed Out at Red Lobster With 5-Month-Old Daughter – By Cory Zurowski in Bad Moms, Child Abuse – Monday, June 13, 2011

    “The Vigils rolled into a Las Vegas, New Mexico Red Lobster recently, their five-month-old daughter in tow. The young family was seated at one of the fine eatery’s comfy booths and prepared themselves for a mighty feast.”


    “Once the couple had soaked up enough of the chain restaurant’s ambience, they got ready to leave. It was at that juncture when concerned Red Lobster’s workers observed the wobbly parents toting the child in her car seat as it swung and bumped into chairs, doors and walls.

    Red Lobster staff offered to call a cab for the couple, but that gesture was shot down.

    A waitress then summoned authorities.

    Officers arrived in the restaurant parking lot to find the Vigils severely FUBRed. They also found Steven Vigil trying to drive off in a red Ford Mustang that had been reported stolen in late May.

    Steven told police he had borrowed the vehicle from an Alcoholics Anonymous buddy. He added that he and his buddy had recently got into a spat and that was likely why his AA chum had now reported the car thieved.”

  • Sue

    How very, very sad. Thank god for the waitress.

  • Rhonda Mc Cain

    I dnt get how an organization that is self suppoting gets the blame for what individuals do. So someone got stabbed outside of a meeting. That doesn’t mean that A.A. told them to do it. People have been raping, molesting, and killing for centuries before A.A came into exsistence. These people may or may not have an issue with alcohol. I still don’t see how that organization has anything to do with breeding these kind of people! If the purpose of the oragnization is to keep people from then what better place to find the ones in need of that service in jails or hospitals. Hey, before AA they were dying in the streets. No one remembers that era huh. Today there are not 25 alcoholics a day dying on the streets, on trains, and where ever else they alienate themselves, they are treated with more human dignity, and understood that the problem is not the crimes they commit but the DISEASE that they live with!!1

  • Rhonda Mc Cain – We aren’t blaming the program that has helped many people. We are blaming the Spiritual not Religious AA members of not reporting it and by doing so not protecting society. It may not happen in your group, but if you or your daughter were murdered and the Spiritual not Religious members of AA knew about it and did not report it because of a “code of silence”, I believe you would be very upset like the family and friends of Danita Brown in Lewiston Maine may be right now.

    There is another organization that has a “code of silence” that has many ties to Religion with there members and often attend church more than the average person. It is called the Mafia, would you be upset if we reported about them? True, AA isn’t as bad as the Mafia, whose members don’t believe it is organized and adamantly profess this. 4000 Children were illegally sent to PA Childcare using the Spiritual not Religious teachings of Hazelden by a corrupt judge that was turned in by a mafia informant, would you suggest we not report and warn people about this?

  • Sally


    What difference does it make if an organization (you said it, not me) is self supporting or not?

    There is a lot of crime around AA meetings. No one cares. No one does anything about it. Just because it “happens everywhere”, doesn’t meant that safety precautions shouldn’t be set in place. Do we/you say this about the boy scouts? Church groups? Schools? Hospitals? Playgrounds?

    Stick around. Click around up above. Do some reading. Educate yourself beyond your home group and selflessness.

  • WastedSpacer

    Here’s one from Canada. The driver is young and not particularly evil, but killed her boyfriend in a single-car accident at age 19. They were both boozing it up after getting off work at a restaurant. Before being convicted of that offence, she got arrested again in a different province (possibly pulling a geographical?) on a straight-forward DUI – blew about 1.12, which isn’t all that high. Because she was still technically innocent of the first offence (i.e., not yet convicted), the second offence counted as a second first offence, reducing the penalty considerably:


    The driver “has taken tremendous steps to overcome any alcohol difficulties by taking the Ontario Remedial Plan for impaired drivers and participating in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.” FYI, the Ontario Remedial Plan is mandatory for anybody who wants their licence back after a DUI.

  • MikeAugustine

    @rhonda, people no longer die on the streets since AA came about? Gee, who woulda guessed? See you back in wonderland, I’m late for a very important date.

  • GLENCOE ,AL – Woman hits car, Glencoe laundry with her van; probation revoked – Friday, July 29, 2011- The Gadsen Times – By Cyndi Nelson

    “GLENCOE — An Albertville woman had her probation revoked Friday after she hit a car parked at a coin-operated laundry — and then hit the laundry.

    Glencoe Police Chief David Colvard said about 9:30 a.m. Friday, Suzanne Greer Johnson, 41, was in a front-wheel-drive van when she “came up” at the Big Chief Drive-in restaurant. She did not stop there but went across the street to an adjacent strip mall with a coin-operated laundry at the end. There, Colvard said, she struck a car and then hit the windows in the laundry.

    “Luckily, the wall (beneath the windows) kept the car from going through and striking the man inside whose car she had just hit,” Colvard said.

    Colvard said Johnson took a field sobriety test and blew .338, which is many times the legal limit of .08.

    In addition to new charges of driving with a restricted license, DUI, violating the open-container law (alcohol in a vehicle) and the probation violation, Glencoe Municipal Judge James Shelnutt instated Johnson’s sentence from her previous appearance before him.

    A release from the judge’s office states Johnson appeared Feb. 16 in Glencoe Municipal Court. She and the prosecution agreed to a deferred sentence on charges of third-degree domestic violence. She was required to complete an Intensive Outpatient Program for substance abuse, to avoid arrest and to refrain from using alcohol. Compliance would have meant dismissal of the domestic violence charged.

    Instead, Shelnutt instated Johnson’s sentence after her arrest Friday, which includes a fine plus court costs; serving 60 days in the county jail; receiving an additional 120 suspended days; being required to enroll in and complete Intensive Outpatient Classes; being required to complete domestic violence classes; being required to attend a minimum of 50 Alcoholics Anonymous meetings; being required to complete anger management classes; and being on probation for 24 months.”

    It would appear that the first charge did not involve mandatory court ordered AA, the second charge did……….

  • Sally

    Dad gets 90 days on abuse charge

    A former Rootstown man who pleaded guilty in June to abusing his children last summer has been sentenced to three months in jail and five years on probation.

    Portage County Common Pleas Judge Laurie Pittman recently ruled that Michael J. Bryan, 30, now of 3263 S.R. 59, Ravenna Township, managed to overcome a presumption of prison time on a fourth-degree felony charge of domestic violence.

    She subsequently sentenced him to 90 days in the Portage County jail with work release privileges and ordered him to spend the next five years on probation.

    Pittman also ordered Bryan to undergo a mental health evaluation, attend two Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous meetings per week for one year, find and keep a full-time job throughout his probation and pay a $350 fine.

    Bryan and his wife, Holly E. Bryan, 27 — also known as Holly Pastva — were living with their children on Gower Road in Rootstown in August 2010 when child services officials received a tip that the couple’s four children were being abused.

    The children later told Child Protective Services officials their parents bit them, beat them with curtain rods, pushed them around, slammed their heads into walls, forced them to pinch each other and in one case struck the 6-year-old boy with a thrown pair of scissors. Bruises and bite marks were apparent on the children, authorities said.

  • Sally

    Update: Boyfriend arrested in killing of woman
    9/3/2011 Santa Clarita

    Saugus man was being held in lieu of $1 million bail Friday after deputies found his live-in girlfriend dead in their home this week.

    Eric Earle, 40, of Saugus, was being held at the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department’s Inmate Reception Center in downtown Los Angeles.Earle was arrested at 2:20 p.m. Thursday on a felony murder charge, according to county arrest logs.

    Deputies responded to a 911 call from the residence of Earle and Karla Brada, 31. The caller said Brada was not breathing as she lay in her bed in a Plum Canyon Road residential complex between 7-8 a.m. Thursday, according to officials.

    She was pronounced dead at the scene by county Fire Department paramedics.

    A sheriff’s detective Thursday described Brada’s death as “suspicious” and said domestic violence may have been a factor. Neighbors said the couple fought often and that sheriff’s deputies were a frequent fixture at their home.

    Earle’s Facebook page paints the picture of a man battling addiction with the help of Brada. The two attended Alcoholics Anonymous meetings together and got a dog together, according to his recent Facebook activity.

    “Yes, I am back into recovery, and it feels great,” Earle wrote on July 28. “Four days and lots of meetings thank you God for another chance. …”

    Earle announced on Facebook that he and Brada were engaged July 29.

    Seven days later, on Aug. 5, Earle was arrested on suspicion of corporal injury against a cohabitant and released on bond, according to county arrest records.

    Earle was charged Aug. 22 with misdemeanor vandalism stemming from the incident, according to county court records. Earle allegedly “maliciously damaged and destroyed” the window of a sheriff’s patrol car, causing damage over $400, according to the Los Angeles Superior Court complaint.

    An autopsy on Brada has not yet been performed, according to the Los Angeles County Coroner’s Office. Coroner’s officials list her death as a possible homicide.

    Brada’s birthday is today. She would have turned 32.

  • Rehab resident captured after fatal stabbing – Ulster County, NY – Thursday, October 07, 2010

    “ULSTER COUNTY (WABC) — Police say a resident of an Ulster County drug and alcohol rehabilitation center who fatally stabbed a security guard and kidnapped a nurse Wednesday morning is now in custody and facing murder charges.

    Authorities say 25-year-old Richard Giga attacked the staff member, identified as 61-year-old Leland Wood, inside the Renaissance Project on Ulster Heights Road in Ellenville just after 3 a.m.

    Neighbors say the horrifying ordeal read like a horror movie, and that they can only imagine the terror the victims felt.

    “You know when I heard helicopters early this morning, I knew something was going on, but I didn’t know if it was an accident or something, so it was scary,” said Debbie Brissett, an Ellenville resident.

    Giga tried to leave the drug and alcohol rehabilitation center, but when he was stopped by Wood, he allegedly attacked and fatally stabbed him.

    A 35-year-old nurse reportedly tried to help the security guard, but police say Giga kidnapped her and forced her to drive him from the scene.

    About a mile away from the center, police say he stabbed Keri Reynolds several times in the abdomen and chest while she was driving, causing the car to flip and crash.

    Reynolds was found by a passer-by, who rushed her to St. Francis Hospital in Poughkeepsie.

    “I came down across a car accident, and the lady came out screaming for help, screaming for help that she had been stabbed,” the Good Samaritan, Guy Churchill, said.

    Reynolds is in the intensive care unit in critical condition, but is expected to survive.

    Giga fled on foot, but was taken into custody shortly after 6 p.m. following an intense manhunt.

    Police tracked him down after he made a phone call from a vacant home.

    He had barricaded himself inside a two-story brick house on Ulster Heights Road near where the crash happened.

    Police took him into custody without incident.

    “We had concern this morning that the buses picking up the kids, so we canceled that,” Ulster County Sheriff Paul VanBlarcum said. “And then obviously, the greatest concern would be that he would break into another residence, an occupied residence and that the case would grow even worse from there.”

    Schools are open Thursday morning.

    Authorities say Giga pleaded guilty to grand larceny in 2008 and was required to enter the residential treatment center prior to sentencing after it was determined he had a drug and alcohol addiciton. He entered the center on January 8, 2009 and has not yet been sentenced for the conviction. He had no prior criminal record.

    According to Renaissance’s website, the center is a 100-bed facility in Ellenville, in the Catskills 75 miles north of New York City. ”

  • Charleston, West Virginia – Department of Heath and Human Resources Assistant Secretary John Law was arrested Wednesday morning and charged with driving under the influence – September 23, 2011

    “Department of Heath and Human Resources Assistant Secretary John Law was arrested Wednesday morning and charged with driving under the influence after he struck three parked cars in downtown Charleston, police said.

    Police were called to the 1500 block of Quarrier Street in reference to an accident. Metro 911 dispatchers said the driver, identified later as Law, was intoxicated and attempting to leave the scene, according to a criminal complaint filed in Kanawha County Magistrate Court.

    Charleston Police Officer B.A. Lightner said he saw Law’s burgundy Jeep Wrangler with heavy front-end damage blocking the roadway.

    When Lightner asked Law what happened, he allegedly said, “I lost control, I’m OK, just get me home.”

    Lightner said he smelled a strong odor of alcohol coming from Law’s breath and noticed he had slow speech and glassy eyes.

    Lightner asked Law if he had been drinking, and Law allegedly responded that he drank six beers at a Charleston bar.”

  • Sarasota, Florida – Sarasota Police: Man assaults another at AA meeting – Thursday, September 15, 2011 at 8:40 a.m.

    “Sarasota Police arrested Michael J. Michaud, 30, the 2600 block of River Pines Way, on an aggravated battery charge this week. Michaud remains in the Sarasota County jail this morning in lieu of $25,000 bail.

    Police say emergency medical technicians had to stitch a cut over the victim’s left eye.”

  • Belfast, Maine – Woman accused of driving with 0.34 percent blood alcohol in June arrested again – By Abigail Curtis, BDN Staff Posted Aug. 12, 2011

    “A woman arrested earlier this summer for allegedly causing a three-car accident while driving with 0.34 percent blood alcohol content found herself in more alcohol-related trouble this week.

    Elizabeth H. Hyde, 25, of Belfast, reportedly was picked up by her boyfriend for an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting Tuesday morning. When the boyfriend realized that she was intoxicated, according to Belfast Police Chief Jeff Trafton, he decided to drive her to the hospital to obtain help for her alcohol use. But Hyde did not want to go.

    “She was very belligerent,” Trafton said.

    Hyde allegedly tried to jump out of the moving vehicle and also bit, kicked and punched her boyfriend while he was driving. She then reportedly attempted to assault police officers who came to assist and also the corrections officers at Waldo County Jail, where she was taken. Hyde eventually was placed in the jail’s restraint chair, Trafton said.

    She was arrested and charged with domestic violence assault and refusing to submit to arrest or detention and remained in custody on Friday morning, according to the chief.”

  • Sally

    Jeeze JR. Was she in de nile of her problem? Did she know what kind of “help” would be offered and didn’t want that? Maybe she just wasn’t ready……….

  • Sally

    Seminole County lawyer gets 15 years for burglary,0,6982509.story
    Orlando Sentinel
    October 3, 2011

    SANFORD – The Seminole County attorney who burglarized the home and business of a client who had made him angry, today pleaded no contest to burglary, grand theft and criminal mischief.

    Albert Ford II, 44, was sentenced to 15 years probation. Prosecutors agreed to a lighter-than-normal sentence, provided that Ford continues to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and continue to see a therapist.

  • Sally

    “Continue with Alcoholics Anonymous”….cuz it was helping him so much prior this offense.

  • Sally

    Woman gets probation for assaulting estranged husband
    Published Friday October 7th, 2011
    The Daily Gleaner

    “A woman who had her young daughter crawl through a kitchen window to unlock a door so she could enter and find her estranged husband in bed with another woman has been sentenced to 12 months of probation for assault.

    Amanda Elizabeth Blaney, 31, who previously pleaded guilty to assault, was also sentenced to anger management by Judge Mary Jane Richards in Fredericton on Friday.

    Crown prosecutor Robert Murray said the incident occurred on the north side of Fredericton in August. Blaney struck her estranged husband in the head five times with closed fists and slapped him.

    Richards admonished Blaney for using her daughter to unlock the door of the house where the assault took place.

    “You understand how awful this is to get your daughter involved,” said the judge. “You lost it.”

    In addition to the probation and the anger management, Richards ordered Blaney to keep the peace, have no contact with her estranged husband, attend mental-health counselling, attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, and abstain from drugs and alcohol.”

  • Sally

    Ecstasy dealer will serve a month in jail, pay fines after local sales
    October 5, 2011 -by DAVE O’BRIEN

    A former Niles man, one of three people caught selling the drug ecstasy in Aurora and Streetsboro earlier this year, has been sentenced to a month in jail and ordered to pay more than $5,700 in fines and restitution.

    Phillip A. “Andrew” Federspiel IV, 23, now of Parkersburg, W.Va., was sentenced by Portage County Common Pleas Judge Laurie Pittman to 30 days in the Portage County Jail and fined $5,000 after pleading guilty to two felony charges for selling ecstasy to undercover police officers several times between January and March.

    Pittman ordered Federspiel to serve the jail time on consecutive weekends. She also placed him on five years probation, ordered him to attend Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous meetings and find and maintain a full-time job.

  • Sally

    Threatening cops after DUI arrest nets man probation, counseling
    osted: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:30 pm

    KEARNEY — A Kearney man was placed on 18 months probation for threatening police officers after being arrested for driving under the influence.

    Under the conditions of his bond, Michael Enquist, 18, must complete intensive outpatient counseling, attend a 12-step recovery program twice a week, and attend classes for anger management, self-control and relapse prevention.

  • Elisa

    I didn’t know AA regularly asks the news media “maintain anonymity” of law breakers (or whatever it is they specifically request). I know the program is entrenched enough in society, I kinda assume in any incident where something in the report refers to substances, that 12 step participation could be involved. The lengths AA will go to control and protect itself are spooky. Soooo, the powers that be that control the media censor this particular thing among others. Who knew.

  • Elisa

    and also, to publish that people are remanded to 12 step programs, sort of legitimizes it as treatment, “oh, that’s good, that drunk driver will learn useful things in AA and now we will all be the safer for it.” Well, not. Sometimes I have explained some of what AA really is to people who are unfamiliar with it’s actual steps, ideology and so forth, if they really understand what I am saying, they shake their heads in amazement anyone would attend for long. Or maybe they are just steppers who think I’m in denial? That old bugaboo anonymity.

  • Sally

    Karen Brettman of Westfield denies manslaughter charge in death of husband
    Published: Friday, October 14, 2011, 5:00 PM

    WESTFIELD – A 51-year-old Heggie Drive woman remains free on personal recognizance pending trial in Hampden Superior Court on a manslaughter charge stemming from the death of her husband.

    Conditions for release ordered by Carey include remaining drug and alcohol free and that she attend five Alcoholics Anonymous meetings weekly. Carey also set a curfew for Brettman to be in effect daily except for the hours between 9 a.m. and noon.

    Brettman has been free on personal recognizance since her August Westfield District Court arraignment before Judge Rita Koenigs. Bail had been originally set at $50,000 cash by Koenigs but it was later reduced to personal recognizance including the wearing of electronic monitoring.

  • Dr. Shannon Sticken

    I do agree that judges sending people to AA is not effective. As a Tucson Therapist, I encourage people to find support that will work for them, but this has to be their own journey, and cannot be something that is forced to be effective.

  • Alex

    This is a awesome page she is actualyl a hazelton counselor who hates AA here it is.

  • Adam

    I’m a member of AA and personally believe there is nothing more damaging to AA’s reputation, or the chances of an individual’s well being and recovery, than to force individual’s into the rooms of AA. We’re supposed to live as a society by attraction alone; we’re supposed to encourage members to face the music for their wrongs; we’re supposed to keep no affiliation with other institutions, including the justice system. It sickens me how often people treat AA as if it’s some absolute truth because it helped them recover. I practice spirituality and it works for me when nothing else would, but to suggest that others can recover by no other means is insane. Truthfully, I pray that nobody is such a horrifically lost alcoholic like myself as to find no means of recovery besides AA. It’s supposed to exist as the option of last resort, when all else has failed.

    • Serena

      I wish I could vote this post up five times.

  • montagna lunga

    People who recognize these anachronisms as participants in AA fall in two camps,
    those who overlook the very practices they preach because they are “In Service”…and those who, often after years of participation, find themselves asking hard questions in all sincerity. Guess what happens to the latter group if they dare share such questions in AA? If that institution would follow what its basic literature says, society would be better off and more real alcoholics might get help. As it is today, it is a near-cultic practice that thrives on revolving doors and ignoring its own skeletons in the closet.

  • Rhufis

    Your an idiot

  • no drama

    A lot of 12 steppers don’t follow the traditions because they don’t know how. That’s why they’re there. To learn some new tools. If everyone who understands how to follow the traditions leaves and judges those who can’t do it, then those who can’t follow the traditions never get to learn. Because they don’t see what healthy looks like.

    Brace yourselves, you’ll probably think I’m a snob, actually, I’m living in the solution for me. So, what I suggest to women is to go to a women’s meeting in a nice neighborhood. That solves the drama of murderers and rapists and the 13th steppers. And, yes, there can be issues at a women’s meeting too. But, there is a simple solution: Take what you like and leave the rest.

    I also interrupt conversations after the meetings. If a new woman is there, I rush the women away from ANY man. I give them my number and I suggest they don’t do mixed meetings later when we have coffee. I suggest they get a phone list and use that for in between meetings. I think it’s important they know WHO is really in the rooms. It’s mayhem sometimes. Some men find out they can go to Al-Anon where they have less competition and more women to choose from. That’s where I do A LOT of 13th step protection work. The men learn fast, when I’m there, no baloney.

    My personal opinion: Children (under 18) shouldn’t be at adult AA meetings, I have issues with it. And I know some friends in Al-Anon who had bad experiences with their children going to AA. I have issues with children in the rooms because I don’t feel free to share openly. And, I believe there should be a separate program, like Ala-teen is for Ala-non –>where the adults have to have a background check to lead.

    Thanks for listening. xo

    • Serena

      Billboards: There is an AA/NA billboard in my town. It’s very low-key, so as not to strike every observer as “promotion”, but i can’t figure out how even a really drab billboard could not constitute promotion.
      Children: It’s in NA that it hurts my heart to see children under 11 or so at meetings. They crawl around and can get into people’s nicotine and caffeine vials unnoticed, they often find sharp things to play with, head down stairs before anyone catches them, and overhear an hour or longer of graphic drug stories. What that does to their sense of security and wholesome image of humanity must be part of how the cycle is perpetuated. I have mentioned this tragedy to lots of members, and everyone says nothing can be done, because there is no qualified child care provider volunteering.

  • Catness

    AA is one scary place…I befriended a woman with 20 years sobriety who still had problems with anger, as the shrink had the cops come to her house to get her for homicical tendancies as she was stockpiling weapons in her apt. (non legally). As she told me this story, I did not make judgment as I know that these kind of things happen to people.
    One day she accused me of being angry with work issue. I hit the ceiling. It was then that it finally got into my head, how sick this organization really is.
    Most (not all) of the people in AA have major issues that will take more than abstinance to cure.

  • Bob Waite

    As I read from this website I see a very bitter spirit. I don’t quite understand why anyone would be so bitter about an organization that has really done well by many people, some of them close friends and associates. I can discern by the use of foul language, slander, undocumented accusations that the people who write this blog are not to be trusted. I was chanced onto this site and can see that it is a whole well of bitterness and I think some kind of competition for the allegiance of troubled people who have alcohol problems.

    • Marko

      Undocumented accusations? Really? Have you not, say, noticed everything written here is documented? Looks like you’re exactly what this site trying to bring to light. So, bravo for being such a disingenuous tool!

  • Tomviolin

    I don’t agree with anything that turns AA into anything but a completely voluntary non-profit program. I think it goes against what AA is really supposed to be about. AA should really be an idea, a concept, and not a huge monied organization.

    I have known many, many people who have benefited greatly from AA. It saddens me to see that there are people being turned off to the concepts behind AA because of these unfortunately manifestations of corruption.

    Maybe there should be a movement to take back AA from this huge organization which is crushing it. One of the AA traditions warns against allowing “problems of money, property, and prestige [to] divert us from our primary purpose.” This tradition is rapidly being lost.

  • Mark

    Based on my own observations and research, A.A. groups are getting smaller, have fewer members, and the median age is getting older than say 25 years ago. Every time I go to a meeting it’s, always the same old people. Recently, I was asked to chair a meeting. I told them I really haven’t done that in a long time.

    Some people were taking way to long to share, so I reminded the group to please keep your comments to 3 or 4 minutes, so everyone would get a chance to share. After the meeting, I got chewed out by a member of the steering committee for cross-talking from the chair podium. He said, “you were making cross-talking references from the podium about something that has not been approved in the steering committee”.

    I chose Step 2 for a topic, but I only read two paragraphs from the Big Book. One guy was ticked off because I didn’t read the whole two pages. Since A.A. is supposed to be a support group, I thought I was being positive. I thought I was supposed to pick the topic. I was accused of people pleasing. I don’t know where that came from.

    I am coming up on 28 years of sobriety. i am very grateful that A.A. was there to enlighten me and help guide me through my addiction.

    A.A. attracts people from all walks of life, and some groups have their own personality. Some members who join A.A. are just mental yo yo’s. These people are real sick. They need professional help, not A.A. Many are sent by the courts and have no desire to be there.

    I left this meeting today not feeling spiritually enlightened. Instead I felt like had committed an A.A. felony. There must be many things out there besides A.A. that avoid the redundancy and mundane regiment of a suggested 12 step program that has too many rules.

    A.A. is truly a very selfish program, if you allow yourself to become open and honest
    in those meeting, you will eventually be met with people taking your inventory and spreading gossip about you.

    A.A. does one thing well, get the drunk sober and teach that some reasonable way to live, but going to A.A. meetings, day-after-day; year-after-year, the magic fads, the voices become more desperate, and that light inside your head grows dimmer.

    I think there is life beyond A.A.

  • ibidlow

    ive been wondering for a few years now…when is a whacko coming into a meeting guns blazing? nobody get any ideas okay. that it hasnt happened is truly a miracle.