Alcoholics Anonymous and the TABOO of the GEOGRAPHIC change.




Geographical Cure (a.k.a Geographic ):
An effort to cure our alcoholism by getting a ‘fresh start’ in a new location. It doesn’t work. There is a saying around AA, ‘Wherever you go, there you are.’

I remember having about five years sober in AA and approaching my sponsor for guidance. I had done well and established a very successful business. In my success I started to look at property in an idyllic location where my family and I had always wanted to live. I had saved enough money to buy a house there for cash. My wife and I had picked out a house and were ready to make our move. Being a good AA I decided to check with my spiritual advisor and sponsor first. Much to my disappointment, he told me that it was dangerous for me to buy this house and move so far from my support group. Clearly I was brainwashed; AA and my sponsor had become my lifeline. I had such a lack of confidence in myself from working the AA program and listening to the rhetoric of the group that I was unable to stand on my own two feet. I was completely dependent on the program and fellowship. As someone who has disconnected from AA, I can look back and see what a shame this is. I see now that AA did not give me power but that it completely crippled me. I have not been living my own life but have been living the lives of others. I remember hearing how bad it was to move away from a persons AA group but never recall hearing anyone share about experiencing a move in which they drank. Members would share that if an alcoholic were to move away from their group they would drink. They would even share that subconciously it was probably an underlying reason for the move. Remember, the great obsession of every alcoholic is to drink normally.

Another factor that plays into the AA’s management of the geographic move is the God implication. Whether implied or by direction the AA seems to rely heavily on the notion that God will do for the alcoholic what he cannot do for himself. Live and let live and let go and let God would seem to directly conflict with any sponsors direction regarding a geographic change, unless of course the AA sponsor is a direct channel from God.

Bottom line; what business does any AA have meddling with the personal life choices and goals of anyone who wanders in their door?  Have you been incapacitated by a sponsor who told you not to make a geographic change?  Were you pressured to stay in your community?  This may be the place to talk about it and share opposing viewpoints so that those who are still crippled by AA can gain insight and make their own decisions.

  • I am glad you brought this discussion up. Sponsors tend to get extreme control over their prospects. What I noticed is that they often give up their service work in the group and usually ask for a one or two year commitment from the sponcees they give them to. They control them by daily phone calls and quickly stop any attempt at leaving by use of a guilt trip and the threat of jails, institutions and death.

    I remember with my wife she was slowly given one year weekly commitments at different clubhouses all over town. It became impossible to us to have any time together alone or take any weekend trips. It wasn’t like we were going on a binge or anything, she just couldn’t give up her commitments or her chauffeur duties to her multiple sponcee’s. The whole family used to go on trips to see the relatives one or two times a year, towards the end my wife couldn’t go anymore because of these commitments. My daughters started going with me at first, but hey, face it I’m an old man and eventually didn’t want to go with me anymore. The AA group destroyed my family taking my wife away and making her into a very efficient prospect hunter for the group. They would never allow us to move to another area, EVER…………..

    • Oldwest Annie

      I am late to the discussion but that is okay, Thank You for the article, you are dead-on. I also, came to this conclusion years back: that this idea of ‘move n lose’ your recovery is a lie and a farse that one gets oppressed by under the AA regime, religion, and kabal. Not only this, I even had a sponsor become upset with me about 2 yrs into the program because I believed amI could handle my own finances and wanted to try doing so, the sponsor even wanted to control my bank account!!! I was also thoroughly brainwashed.

  • Occupy AA

    Thank you for this. At about 4.25 years into my sobriety with AA in a small town with a very large AA community, I began to listen to some of the doubts and reservations I had had about the program since I was introduced but had managed to suppress. I lived in an apartment building known as “recovery row” because all but two of the apartments were leased by AA members. There existed a strange, undefined community setting where people would walk into one another’s apartment without regard to personal boundaries or respect for requests to be alone.

    At first it seemed really cool to have people around all the time, but as I grew and got more comfortable being by myself, I had trouble getting people to respect the fact that I wanted to be alone. If I asked people to leave or be quiet I was told that I was being a “grouch” or “the bad guy.”

    There was also a lot of racist, sexist, and homophobic humor that went around that I felt disempowered to do anything against, and at times pressured into participating in. I realized that I was totally reliant on these people, and they held beliefs and worldviews that were counter to the values I had and wanted to nurture. It was a really tough realization for me to come to, because I had formed very close relationships with these people, cried on their shoulders, and let them cry on mine, but I just had to get out to give myself room to grow.

    Someone not in the program offered me a room near my new school, so I did what I was told: run it by my sponsor. I told him that I was questioning my beliefs about AA, and that I was far too embedded in the AA community in that town to remove myself from it, so the only way to find out if If I could actually live sober and autonomous was to change “people, places and things.” I told him that I was planning on moving, and that I would keep my options open as far as going to meetings or not. He told me that I sounded like someone who was planning on getting drunk and discouraged me from disconnecting myself. I told him that I was aware it would be a very difficult process, but that I was hoping that I would become a better person through it. While he didn’t explicitly tell me not to, he transmitted to me the doubt that I would succeed on my own. This, and some resistance from other members of the community kept me from moving. I told the guy with the room that I was unable to move, and I spent the next 8 months desperately wanting to get out, aching to grow up and learn independence, but with crushing fear that was instilled in me from my sponsor and community.

    I finally made contact with someone who was not in the program and who believed in me and who gave me the strength and courage to stand up and take action and control of my life and move, which I did two weeks ago. It’s very difficult. I got into a fight with my old AA room mate on my move out day, and I’m in the middle of a bizzare existential crisis that arose partly from defining myself in relation to AA and my community for so long and then suddenly separating myself from that.

    I’ve looked desperately for other things to control me because I am accustomed to being controlled. It’s the most free i’ve ever been in my life, and it’s terrifying. I went from being controlled by my parents, to alcohol and drugs to AA, and now there’s nothing that wants to tell me what to do. It’s scary and painful at times, but I’m excited and hopeful nonetheless.

    If things go as they are, I will be sober for 5 years in a month. I’m looking forward to not having to get up in front of a hundred people and have my ego stroked, as is the custom in AA around here. I really appreciate this blog, and it gives me hope and strength to know that there are other people who are going through the same thing I am.

  • etp

    This is a great topic, thank you Disclosure. I had over seven years back in 1995 and became aware of the fact that I did not like AA. I read Charlotte Kasl’s book “Many Roads One Journey” and realized she was right, AA did not help women’s self esteem and there was a better way to approach recovery. She made some valid points in her book but now I realized she just scratched the surface and let AA off the hook considerably. With some friends I helped start a Women’s Empowerment meeting based on Kasl’s work. That was going well and I officially left AA at the time but I was unhappy in my job and my personal life was suffering so I made the decision to move across the country to Southern California. I was 35 at the time and it seemed like the time to make that kind of move. Well, on my trip out there I got as far as Seattle, WA and I drank 4 beers. I don’t know why, I guess I was scared of the big move and I was hanging out with some “Normies” who drank and I decided to partake. This led to almost a year of binge drinking, a DUI and an outpatient rehab stint then back to AA. I have had many years abstinent since then but that experience of drinking after 8 years abstinence then having to go back to AA as a “newcomer” really had a negative affect on my life.
    As I look back now knowing what I know about AA mind control and the brainwashing I see a few things. The first was that I was scared shitless to drink when I left for California because of all the messages I had heard that if I leave AA I will drink, the messages that I was pulling a geographical and the fact that once I put one drop of alcohol in my system then it’s jails, institutions or death. Even after having those 4 beers I could have easily gone right back on the wagon but that slip haunted me constantly and I did not want to go back to AA.
    The other issue I realized was the fact that I had surrounded myself for over 8 years with strictly program people. I never was around people who drank so I was inexperienced in understanding how to be socially around drinkers and non program people.
    I was made to believe that when I left the East Coast for California I was running from something which is bad and pathological. The reality is that it’s my life and every right to move wherever I want and for whatever reason. AA sucks in so many ways and I hate that geographical thing.

  • humanspirit

    @Occupy AA

    Thank you so much for this post. What strikes me is that you seem fully aware of what the situation is and that you have a great deal of self-awareness too. Yes, taking full control over your own life and getting yourself free can be a scary prospect when you’ve been surrounded for so long by people who have told you you’re not capable of it. But you are, and you know you are.

    The thing to always bear in mind that those people who seek to direct your life for you have no particular qualification to do so. They are by no means any better than you in any way, and are not endowed with any particular wisdom. Their attempts to hold you back are purely in their own interests, and reflect their own fears, not yours.

    Good luck! I hope you’ll continue to get some encouragement from these pages.

  • Disclosure- Great post. Yes. I was 6 years sober and 24 years old back in 1981. I met a man I liked a bit at my job and he feel in love with me. Me with him eventually. But I was hesitant about him because on our first date his car door of his van fell off the hinges and I wasn’t materialistic but when we returned from the movies His VW Van was then towed and the tow people confiscated his credit card cause it was over extended. That ‘s what they did back them. Not a bad thing.

    I called my sponsor and said I had bad feelings about him. He was sweet and kind and nice but he didnt have his finances together at all and I had worked hard on getting my life together. Now I had been a hippy perviously and owned very little. Had a cute studio apartment , a cute older car and a little money in the bank. I worked full time for 5 out of those 6 years sober. I was independent and “self supporting” God I hate that fucking phrase that has been surely twisted!
    Anyway…she turned it on me and told me there was something wrong with me.

    I moved in with him , moved to California (which no one tried to stop that I was not a member of a PG type AA culture.) Married him and years later , 16 to be exact. The marriage ended and most of our fights were about money. I knew it in my gut. But I didn’t listen.
    D- Im sorry you didn’t buy that house and move away and follow your instincts. In Buddhism they are not allowed to give advice. I love that about Shinnyo-en Buddhism.

    This type of manipulation keeps one’s self esteem low. Calling a sponsor and running it by them. How absurd.
    Occupy AA I LOVE YOUR HANDLE!!!!

    ALso I have an idea. A bit of Occupy Wall ST mentality. What if all of us go to a meeting and say what we believe here. Talk like we are on the blog but do it in a meeting. I bet 3-4 members will come up to us and ask us about alternatives. Just wondering….any thoughts on this?

  • “Bottom line; what business does any AA have meddling with the personal life choices and goals of anyone who wanders in their door? ”

    As much as we are willing to give them, doubled.

  • betty

    Occupy AA-
    Congatulations on listening yo your own voice and having the courage to break away from a lifestyle that could not allow you to grow and become who you are meant to be. You sound young…you’ve got an entire, beautiful life ahead of you now that you’re free.

    Wish I lived in the same time zone. I’d love to go to a meeting with you! It is frightening to imagine speaking my mind in a meeting feeling like I’d be alone in my convictions. I’ve only just walked away from AA. Maybe after a little more time I’ll be ready to go back and “share” how I’ve managed to stave off “jails, institutions, and death” without the help of AA.


    Exactly. It baffles me to see the extent to which people allow others to make decisions for them. It seems the longer you stay, the less capaple you are of acting on your own behalf and thinking for yourself. It’s sad and twisted.

  • humanspirit

    I really don’t get this geographical thing even from AA’s point of view. Isn’t one of the USPs of AA that you can go anywhere in the world and find a meeting of “the fellowship” wherever you are? It’s a bit like McDonald’s, really – exactly the same menu all over the world, so you don’t need to worry that anything nasty and foreign might scare you if you venture away from home.

    Or do they really think that the AA god will only save you from drinking if you are a member of a particular chapter? Blimey, God sure has got a bit pathetic in comparison to his old testament heyday when he was allowed to smite people, etc. all over the place. He can’t even do what McDonald’s does these days.

  • Amy

    I think the geographical thing is just another form of control. May look as if your gaining too much confidence. Leaving the group and attending meetings in another area should be fine (in fact healthy) and it makes no sense to claim that it’s a problem. But then, what does make sense in AA?? At this moment, I am trying to think of something.

  • A few months ago I found a thread on SoberRecovery where an AA member wrote to get advice about his job. He wanted to accept a really good job offer that would require him to move his family out of town. He was worried because he’d also have to leave his home group. The people who didn’t respond with “pray about it,” danced around telling him flat out that he could not leave his group without risking his sobriety. One response really sticks in my head: “You know what you have to do,” insinuating that he should turn the job down, of course.

  • Amy

    I never understood the home groupie requirement. I tried to avoid frequenting the same meetings this last time; that’s when they get to damned nosy about your life. Very difficult to mind your own business. Too bad it took me decades to figure it out. Stupid !!!

  • SoberPJ

    Occupy AA … Great story and I wish you the very best. One suggestion is to get with a group that empowers you. To just cut communications with a group that you depended on and kind of kept you powerless, is like trying to glide with no wind. You need to find some new wind. SMART or online where you can talk to people that will encourage you is probably important right about now. I think many on here found there was a bit of a rebound effect after leaving AA and it is normal and to be expected because it has conditioned you in many ways and you will discover what they are by staying away. I was thinking again today how no one has called me dipshit or nuts ever since I left AA – no one. Find truly empowering people, they are out there.

  • betty

    I think you are right when you say it “May look as if your gaining too much confidence.” That pesky self-will turning up again.

  • Amy


    Thanks ! It was the first thing that came to my mind after reading the top of the thread. Control freaks will use anything to hold on to their power. Whether it’s good for you or not, is of no concern to them. Control is what they thrive on.

  • Sally

    -How proud you must be of your accomplishments. 5 years sober, saving enough to relocate to an area of your “dreams”. That’s wonderful! Hey, thanks for talking to me about this. I’m honored to have been part of your successes, but it is you that made it happen. If you continue with this decision, best of luck Man! Try and remember all that you’ve learned about staying sober, and you might want to investigate other groups when you make this transition. Anything I can do to help?” –This is what I’d of liked to hear if I was in your shoes.

  • KellyRyan

    When I relocated to Olivenhain, CA 9 years into AA, I became so involved in service, (GSR, alt DCM, bid chair for the IWC, sponsoring, leading meetings, etc.), I needed to go into virtual and physical hiding when I left AA.

    For the first few years after I left AA I longed to live elsewhere. I was pursued by phone, email and snail mail, and couldn’t go to shopping centers without someone insisting on stopping me to tell me about their program. Everything about AA is intrusive, denigrating, and lacking in respect for anyone who chooses to live outside of AA.

    I did make the effort to continue a relationship with a sponsor who I enjoyed being with woman to woman. She was highly creative and a talented artist, and we shared an off the wall sense of humor. I did need to end the relationship and told her directly, “I could no longer bear her lectures, and I finally realized I had never belonged in AA.”

  • disclosure

    Thank you all!

  • Wow, I am so thankful for this blog being here. I’m stunned by how many of these little things still bother me after so long–but it’s so encouraging once I see everyone else sharing these things!

    Right on to everyone above. Etp, great story! Occupy AA, I love the name….and the concept. Disclosure, damn…..if AA weren’t so much older, I’d swear that my mom had invented it, though not for alcohol. And oddly, none of these tactics seem to have much to do with drinking either!

    And yes, I broached this topic with a sponsor almost immediately. Was told right off that moving is the worst idea possible–but in no logical way was this explained, it was more to the point of explaining the “geographic” as on par with a horrible sin. As if I’d expressed some awful and sinful part of my nature in wanting to get away from where I’d been addicted, that this was somehow bad because it showed a side of me that warranted further exploration in “stepwork”. I was told I needed to “own” what I’d done (& therefore live in and with it for eternity) and that since I couldn’t change my “disease”, moving would do nothing more than prove that *I* was still trying to “live through secrecy”, to “be escapist”, etc.

    It all came down to them finding more to blame me (and anyone else with questions) for, honestly, and NEVER was it brought up to me that this would even somehow lead to more using. Not once. Just that I looked like I was trying “to escape”. Yes, boy, was I ever.

  • Amy


    How are you? you said that you were stunned by how many of these little things still bother you after so long. I know what you mean. Ive discovered that I buried some of these things and all of sudden someone brings up an AA issue and I get angry or upset and say: “I forgot about that shit”. Thats why I check in often because I dont want to forget and loose site of alllllllll the reasons I left. I dont care to obsess but I dont want to forget the depth of the sickness in AA.

  • Eh, I’m good. I do wonder how many people are still as bothered by these things. My answer is always here on this blog. I often wonder if it ever dawns on anyone that saying things like, “are you angry?” in passing has a completely different meaning to people escaping this weird recovery culture. And yet again find myself listening to “Set Out Running” by Neko Case on repeat… I did and do want to “set out running”. No wonder steppers labeled this one a sin. No one wants to live with a scarlet letter “A” on their selves for life. I think that area has been written about rather a lot already, it shouldn’t shock the steppers quite so much.

  • Elisa

    from Geographic — I had done well and established a very successful business …… I decided to check with my spiritual advisor and sponsor first

    Great topic. Might as well say I opened 25 high end clothing shops coast to coast and made millions of dollars and decided to ask a block of wood how to do advanced calculus.

    Amy — everything will always bother me. One thing will always make me feel at least a little better — I stopped going back.

    Occupy AA — definitely. Everyone’s heard of the atlantic group (I’m not sure how many of the sub cults of the cult there are), how about pick a date and time of a Manhattan Atlantic group meeting, where the Occupy WS movement started and do a Occupy AA. Everyone wear a red t-shirt (or something all the same) so you will know you are not alone. Don’t camp out or stay, Hold up signs on cue that say whatever you want. Video it, put it on YouTube. Go viral.

    Keep going back. haha

  • Amy


    You writing is exceptional. Thanks for the response.

    Elisa said;
    “Everything will always bother me. One thing will always make me feel at least a little better – I stopped going back.”

    Thankyou for making that point. I consider it very important to be mindful of that fact. Im not sure how long ago you left. Sorry havent read everything today. However, I left one year ago (oct. 23rd) and I grow more grateful as time passes. If experience is similar to mine, except that you left recently; that’s what you have to look forward.

  • Amy


    Meant to say ‘YOUR’ writing is exceptional. Sorry, guess mine is not so great. I felt the need to correct that.

  • causeandeffect

    This has brought up some stuff for me–a lot of hurt. I feel that if I hadn’t been offered the geographical change that I had taken, I probably wouldn’t be sober today. Or alive. In fact, I’m sure of it. But this wonderful offer came from a family member who is a stepper. This family member (as well as the rest of the family in this household) has been nothing but supportive, and I feel this saved my life. I’m really happy here for the most part. And there hasn’t really been pressure, well, maybe a little, but no real meddling in my business. Unfortunately, we haven’t discussed my leaving AA at all. I fear what could happen, not only to my place within this home, but my place within this family. After all, how do you tell someone you love so much, that the religion that they used to follow is nothing but a sham created by a narcissistic conman, who’s spiritual experience was nothing but a hallucinogenic dream? And that what they believe in so deeply has absolutely no efficacy, neither to help stop drinking, nor to find a better life, beyond what simply getting sober will get you. How do you tell someone who you owe your life to, that what they believe in so deeply is nothing but a sham? And how do you know if you will be completely disowned by your own family or not? It hurts to be unable to be honest. A lot.

    But there is another stepper in my family. I don’t know for sure, but right from the beginning I have had a very strong suspicion that this stepper doesn’t approve of this arrangement. I can hear this stepper screaming, “You can’t take her in! She won’t hit bottom! She won’t have to live with her consequences! That’s codependent behavior! You’re enabling her!” This stepper has been for years giving advice, sometimes good, sometimes bad. It’s always bad and limiting when it comes to something that would make me happy, even before I developed my drinking problem. But since I’ve gotten sober, this stepper has been doing and saying little things to create a resentment. And at first it worked. But the meanness that comes out, all the while, smiling…. Ever hear that? Someone with total meanness in their voice while grinning their ass off? It’s really scary–like they’re possessed or something. I forgive this stepper. I feel this “tough love” is a result of brainwashing. When this stepper isn’t coming from a stepper position, they are really very nice. But I’m absolutely certain that if this stepper knew my position on this, I’d be disowned in a second flat. Father forgive them, they know not what they do….

  • Amy


    I really feel for you and I can indeed relate to your position; because I am in a similiar situation. Mine does not involve a family member but this person is a true stepper and very nice but if they new how I really felt or about my involvement on this blog; I fear that I could loose the roof over my head. Sometimes, the longer I am away from AA and the more enlightened I get and the more disgusted I get with the harm it has done to so many, the more difficult this situation is to deal with. I had a really bad day Monday but I had to get a grip and face the fact that I cant change my situation yet. I was able to work it out with a close friend an I am now back in acceptance mode. I was a bit at a loss for words when I read your post but Im tryig to say that I have total compassion for you and boy, do I understand. Maybe we could talk sometime.

  • Elisa

    Amy — My writing is exceptional, dancing with glee, you can say it any way you want. Thank you. When I was in the cult, I used to come up with exactly one sentence and then my mind would go Snooki. Entire stories with beginning, middle and end are for out of my league for some reason, writing stories is like anything else, I guess, not everyone really excels at it. I left the cult four or five years ago, maybe more, I don’t have much of a memory for years and dates.

    As for C&E, well, what a troubling situation. I suppose deal with it as if it were any other cult, might make it a little less scary than thinking of it as the AA cult in particular. I mean, if it were the Green Aliens from Mars cult, how would you deal with that? Although, all cults are scary. The whole religion thing still make the hair stand up on the back of a my neck. Some normie can innocently say god looks out for me and I emotionally curl up into a fetal position to protect myself from the coming blows.

  • Sally

    Oh, c&e, I feel for you. Hang in there! You are in a safe place now, and surrounded by love ones in your home.
    Venting here is good 🙂 Maybe your stepper/family member, that you love so much, doesn’t need to hear those things about the cult at this time. It could be bad for him/her, and like you said – maybe bad for you too. Holding it in has got to be tough! I’m not in that position. You’re being very strong.

  • Elisa

    Ooooooh, talk about the little things that bother me!!! I was just thinking, I can never sleep at night. dvhcksleelekcioed ! remember the AA advice? Read the BB, that’ll put you to sleep. Ummm, maybe give you nightmares? The four horse heads of the epoxy-lips, real soothing. or keep reciting the Serenity Prayer over and over. Keep repeating to yourself “My name is Elisa and I’m an alcoholic” oh dear lord, no wonder I’m crazy. can’t tell a doctor, nooooooo, they put you in rehab if you left AA even if you’re 80 years old. too crippled to drive to the liquor store, on life support and haven’t had a drink in fifty years. I don’ wann go to rehab either.

  • Elisa

    Amy — Persophone’s writing is exceptional, you said, not mine, missed that, sorry.

  • causeandeffect

    Thanks Amy, Elisa, and Sally. It’s nice to be understood.

    Haha, Elisa, when I as in for detox there was this like 80 yrs old lady who got arrested for drinking while driving. That’s right, she was speeding while she was drinking a “tall boy” and they threw her and her walker into the back of a squad car! She was a hoot!

  • lacvobistotum

    What a terrible position to be in, c&e. To be so dependent on others for shelter and safety that you are afraid to state an opinion contrary to those whose help you need so much.

    If you hated stewed beets and they were to serve you beets for a week, then keeping silent so to not upset the delicate balance provided for you must be a challenge. Of course, anthing beats being on the streets, right? People are forced to endure much worse to remove themselves from desperate circumstances and stay dry and warm.

    In the years to come after you’ve grown up, you can disagree freely with everyone who crosses your path. For your own good now, I agree it’s much wiser to keep the cotton in your mouth and your belly as full as a tick on a friendly shaggy dog, hoping no one inspects too closely.

  • Kelly Ryan- I really relate in some ways. ALthough I am in West LA I can run into someone I knew from the GSR meetings at The Mac store in Century City. We pretend we never knew each other cause… well …we were never really friends anyway.

    Anyway Kelly…I have seen a few of the ladies and its been okay so far although I had a guy friend calling to ask me to speak and I finally called him back to tell him I left AA I hate AA..on and on. He asked me if I was still sober. Oh the questions. I told him about Smart Recovery. He had never heard of it. So now he knows. Someone else contacted me about writing my story as a proAA piece. I’ll have to call him back too. It takes me days to call these people back. Im so tired of the AA jargon. UGHHHHH
    I ran into an new non AA friend tonight and it was so refreshing.

    I’ll be heading down to occypy la Friday with my sons to protest and to hang with more like minded activists. Im getting tired of being on my computer. I wanna be outside!

  • Elisa

    causeandeffect — Bet she was holding, too. 🙂

  • Swamibedpan

    Ticks are very dangerous where I live to both domestic pets and wildlife so I thank you for your concern.
    No anything does not beat living on the streets. Sometimes it is by far the best alternative.
    What is your point?

  • Border Collie Mix

    lacvobistotum, I believe your statement would better translate into “NEVER COMPLAIN NEVER COMPLAIN NEVER COMPLAIN”.

  • lacvobistotum

    Swami, BCM, don’t you support c&e? She should know if it’s best for her not to promote conflict in the home of her rescuers. Are you suggesting she is better off in her former dire circumstances, or that she should tell the stable and successful people around her how to live their lives?

    I have to side with the way she sees it, and disagree with both of you. When things fell apart due to her addiction, running home to sponge off people who are doing well but staying sober incorrectly in her eyes is not a bad thing at all. If she were to sit these people down and set them straight about how AA doesn’t make lives better and they should see things her way it probably wouldn’t be well received.

    Instead of encouraging her to stir things up and possibly negatively affect her continuing access to quality food and shelter, you should compliment her on her restraint in allowing them to remain deluded about what has made them sober and happy and able to take in strays.

  • betty

    Condescending much, lacvobistotum? It is quite remarkable how you were able to gleen so much insight about c&e’s situation from that post. She’s sponging off people? She’s a stray? How could you possibly know what her contribution to the situation might be? Don’t think you can…so why so sure you know for certain that she should keep the cotton in her ears? Is it because all alcoholics are all the same? Selfish, lying,cheating, manipulative, ego-driven etc… etc… etc…? It didn’t seem to me that c&e was expressing anything other than her own honest feelings and questions about her current situation. I certainly heard a lot of gratitude for her family members in her post. And it certainly didn’t appear that Swami or Border Collie Mix were insinuating that she stir things up.
    Hmm. Maybe I’m just in a bad mood but your tone really pissed me off. Guess I’m just a sensitive alcoholic.

  • C&E, that voice of the stepper you can almost hear saying those things, Oh, do I ever know that voice. I feel it’s with me every second of the day. “Tough love” just isn’t love. It’s not always possible to cut these people out entirely at certain times, and I can’t give advice, all I can say is that although I still hear that little voice in my head speaking for them, I never, ever have to hear the real voice. Ever. Again. (I realize that’s of little help probably, but lacvob kind of threw me there…..what are you getting at there, lacvob, actually?)

    What is the rationale for this in AA, btw? The use of this in NA is, I think, absurd. I realize that procuring alcohol is something one can do anywhere. For many drug users, especially younger people, moving to a new city can be the exact thing that would probably do them the most good! Obviously not the sort of thing you could mandate as advice, but if the person wants and is able to move, why not?

    Amy, thanks.

  • Sally

    Hi lacvo,

    I’ve been on this site a few 24 hours. And:

    “In the years to come after you’ve grown up”
    “People are forced to endure much worse”
    “For your own good now”
    “Keep the cotton in your mouth”.

    Is all stepper yada yada, not support. It’s not what c&e would appreciate hearing right now.

  • Border Collie Mix

    lacvobistotum, If this had to do with whether or not to accept someone’s religion on a condition of help, or just out of gratitude, or to people please someone who helped you, what would the answer be?

    I can just read through the lines of what you really meant, that’s all; “Never, ever complain about any slogan or belief in AA or ELSE”, “Must shut up if not praising AA, or we must shut you up”. The “you must not say/think…….(fill in the blank)” overtones of AA are what have brought me to look for AA critical sites like ST for relief, so I could stop thinking I was just nuts or not grateful for thinking there were things done in the fellowship that weren’t right, or that the steps were outdated and AA people actively work to prevent people in need from ever being offered anything else. I am not against AA, Hell I still go to a meeting, I just know what all the phrases mean at this point, and this thought-stopping stuff can kill. Do I want someone suffering or dead because they can’t shake the cognitive dissonance enough to fit in in AA? No, a beautiful, kind woman I knew in long term treatment was found hanging dead in her apartment years ago because AA just didn’t do it for her, and the many years sober son of a bitch she met in the rooms sure as hell didn’t. I want all the solutions available that people can get, and people don’t deserve to be trained to shut-down upon hearing slogans, that’s Manchurian Candidate stuff.

  • causeandeffect

    Oh, look! JD’s back! Hi JD!!! I’d recognize your distinctive writing style anywhere. You bring gaslighting and condescension to an art form. Are you traveling now? I know your IP is blocked so my guess is that you are, unless you’re using a friend’s computer. FYI JD, I can get my own place now. I just love my family and love being with them. Of course, you wouldn’t understand that.

    Oddly enough, I never alienated my friends or family when I was drinking, but if I now tell my family the truth, I could very well be disowned.

  • AnnaZed

    @c&e ~ I don’t know if that is JD, but it could be any stepper post. The uniformity and hostility is so distinctive.

  • Amy

    lacvo or “whatever you name is’

    All I had to hear was comments such as: “Sponge off people and Take in stays”, to know that you dont know you rear end from a hole in the ground. No one here wants to hear from a brainwashed fools.

  • Sally

    lol c&e. The second post by lacvo is more revealing. you are good!

    lacvo, hot and xcrowded in that rabbit hole?

  • It could be JD Jr., you know the kid that became raging alcoholic at 16 because his father was chanting Bill Wilson somewhere in Church basements instead of being with his son. Of course he did spend some time with him, you know taking him to AA picnics so he could see and hear his future in the drunkalogs, of course he also probably talked to him when he brought drunks home to play Dr. Bob with……………… I wonder if he has a paddle?

  • causeandeffect

    JR, I hate to correct you but, JD’s son was 12 when he turned into a raging alcoholic because JD was spending all his time in meetings and flying to Scotland to 5th step a guy and while there was arranging flowers with the ever so fair, dead-for-a-century, Lady Aberdeen, at her stately mansion that has actuallybeen a museum since before he got sober. LOL!

  • Sally

    I suspect that there is more than one “J.D” in our midst.

  • Ooops….. well it sure is good that JD found Bill Wilson, otherwise his kid could have ended up being a normie and he wouldn’t get any attention……………….. maybe it’s just one of his sponcees honing their prospect hunting skills.

  • causeandeffect

    Oh, I almost forgot to mention that the Lord and ever-so-fair (but dead) Lady Aberdeen worship JD because he’s a sober alcoholic in AA. So does the Queen and her royal family and when he visits the Buckingham palace they all join hands and chant “keep coming back!”

    I’d forgotten how much fun it was to have a rigorously honest ™ troll around here!

  • Amy


    One more time, now !!!

  • ez

    lacvo…anagram for ‘vocal’.

  • disclosure

    Try this EZ…
    Subatomic Volt
    A Clubs Vomit To
    Oat Clubs Vomit
    Vocals But Omit

  • Woo! It’s the Unending Airhorn of Sanctimony! Welcome back, JD.

  • causeandeffect
  • Wow. Thanks for the clarification. I was trying not to go into a full on rant at this person on the off chance he wasn’t a stepper….but it sounded so bloody close.

    Anagrams, eh? Wouldn’t that be a “secret” at odds with “rigorous honesty” and all that? Just sayin’.

    And there is the remaining argument against pulling a geographic: these people can always seem to find you online. Ugh. Lacvo, just a heads up regarding me and not to speak for others here, but keep the stepper talk aimed away from me at all times if you’re ever posting where I am. Far away. Debate is one thing. But if you ever give me “advice” like you tried with C&E above, well, just consider yourself fairly warned as of now.

  • WatchSurvivingStraightInc

    Wasn’t there something significant due to happen in October, as well as the rapture.

  • Sally

    Good memory WSS! All will be revealed in October.

  • AnnaZed

    Woo yeah, I forgot that more will be revealed prophesy for October.
    We’re waiting!

  • I thought it was November. Anyway, I hope he doesn’t leave before the miracle.

  • The new date for the end of the world per Harold Camping of “Family Radio – Feeding God’s Sheep” is October 21, 2011.

    And he is still on Radio and Satellite:

  • WatchSurvivingStraightInc

    I will be annoyed if the October revelations do not materialise, and even more annoyed if the rapture lets us down again. Or if the rapture happens before the revelations. llse, it is DEFINTITELY October. You told me that on the JD/lifering thread.

  • Oh! Maybe I got it confused with the Great American Smokeout.

  • humanspirit

    I’m pretty sure JD’s personal bombshell was supposed to be in November too.

    This lacvo has got to be him, hasn’t it? There can’t be more than one person in the world who can write with such superciliousness and with that arrogant, sneering tone, surely? I wonder if JD has managed to infiltrate another non-AA recovery site recently, btw, and has set himself up as a trusted leader there? It would be interesting to know what happened after his public outing.

    Come on, lacvo, let us know. Any honest person would welcome the chance to defend themselves from accusations of being one and the same as the despicable and duplicitous JD.

  • Mark

    I lub JD.

    He’s like our own Frank Burns.

  • WatchSurvivingStraightInc

    Rapture in October, revelations in November.

  • SoberPJ

    Snow in December …

  • HAD to share this one. Rapture Day Prank idea. Surprised I found this one again, I had no idea another rapture was pending, so thanks for the heads up!

  • I had a great time on Rapture Day

  • WatchSurvivingStraightInc

    I think we all enjoy a good rapture now and then.
    The last one caused the Icelandic volcano to erupt.
    It gives a bit of colour, now that the nights are drawing in.

  • Well, JD could be planning something on the anniversary of Bill Wilson’s birthday of November 26, 1895 or he could be celebrating Bill Wilson entered into Towns Hospital for The Belladonna Cure that Wilson started in November 1934 where he had his White Light experience……………..

    Who knows whats goes on in a delusional Steppers mind……………………

  • Mona Lisa

    If you want to see some absolutely incredible, blow-your-mind, twisted-up, illogical crap, check out Camping’s explanation of what really happened on “Rapture Day”:

  • Please tell me Harold Camping isn’t hosting any AA meetings anywhere……..

    They even say they won’t be able to sue him………………………

  • loulou

    Occupy AA said : I’ve looked desperately for other things to control me because I am accustomed to being controlled. It’s the most free i’ve ever been in my life, and it’s terrifying. I went from being controlled by my parents, to alcohol and drugs to AA, and now there’s nothing that wants to tell me what to do. It’s scary and painful at times, but I’m excited and hopeful nonetheless.

    Wow, just waited to say I’ve been where you are. Almost exactly, 4.5 years sober when I left too. That was 4 months ago and I want you to know it got better for me. I started going to church a lot seeking that safety and direction I was missing. Turns out that wasn’t right for me either and in retrospect I can see I felt exactly how you describe and was driven by fear. Today I am living a wonderfully free existence… excitement for the future now outweighs the fear. When people text me to see how I am I just tell the truth that I am no longer a member of AA and it was the right choice for me to leave. At this stage I leave it at that. Perhaps one day I will be able to say more, but at this stage my own well being is more important than trying the rationalize with anyone still entrenched. I have learned to keep to myself. Keeping my own counsel was never encouraged in AA, however I see that most of the “madness” I felt in the head if I wasn’t “working a good program” was actually due to too many cooks in the kitchen, ie. always running my life issues past people (old-timers,sponsors) whose only real knowledge of me stemmed from the fact they identified me as “diseased”. Funny how since I’ve left AA the whole madness thing doesn’t exist for me anymore. I have bad days, and many more good days, but no longer do I doubt my own sanity on a daily basis. I’m just a human being doing the best with my life and loving the journey.

    As an aside, I wanted to say to C&E that my mum threatened disowning me if I ever left AA. My best friend who was not in AA told me at the time it was a bluff. It relates to what I said to Occupy, as I think for my mum she was scared i would die too. Mum had controlled my life for so long, then when I left home I went off the rails ending up in rehab. Since I got sober and went to AA I got my life back on track, got married etc. I think she was scared that I would ruin my life if I left and it comforted her to know that someone else was “looking after” me and keeping me on track (ie. sponsor) as she lives a long way from me. She too was scared that I could not survive outside of AA, because she does live me dearly.

    I don’t live with my Mum so it didn’t threaten my living arrangements etc but I guess I needed to get to the point where I had to live my own truth and had the courage to say to her that this is what I’m doing, i hope that you will still love and accept me, but this is a choice I need to make for myself, i can’t live the rest of my life not knowing if i could have moved on and lived life without sitting in rooms obsessing about drinking or not drinking, going over and over past mistakes – I wanted to look forward! She wasn’t happy about it, but I have spent so much of my life living for other people’s approval, I just couldn’t do it anymore – I was ripe for AA with the approval thing by the way.
    Turns out my mum still loves me. When I had the guts to have that conversation without getting angry/confrontational etc and just asked her to hear me out I was so surprised. Turns out she had to go to a support group recently for post traumatic stress and she had thought about the fact that I had to sit in rooms like this all the time listening to depressing stuff and she said she couldn’t do it herself. I gave mum the benefit of the doubt and I was rewarded.

    Sorry I’ve gone off on my own tangent, but basically I wanted to say to c&e – you will know when the time is right. When your voice can no longer stay inside. Be patient and kind with yourself, it is a big issue that no one else can tell you how to handle as we are living such different lives with such delicate relationships. I mean that’s just a snippet of my mum & I, there is so much more. She actually came to ‘family week’ at my rehab so she had a bit of exposure to the recovery industry and you can imagine that after 6 years in AA, amends steps with her and family etc it was a shock for them that I wanted to leave AA. I had to be ok with the fact that I might not be accepted by my family anymore, and when my own acceptance of myself became more important than that I was ready to make a move. Turns out I didn’t give my mum enough credit and I have learned so much more since then.

    This is becoming a novel so I’ll leave it there! I do read this blog frequently, often preferring to stay silent as I’ve said things before when I was a bit all over the place (was still dealing with a lot of fear, even of what the readers on this site would think of me! Thankfully that has settled down..). I just felt compelled today to write. Thanks for the great site to all.

  • SoberPJ

    I find it interesting that loulou’s story is a lot like a whole bunch of folks that left AA. Fearful and “jittery” right after leaving and then calming down over time to be actually free and more relaxed. That begs the question – what did we calm down from? What the hell was it that made us all wrapped around the axle that eventually had to go away? Is AA also an anxiety creating machine? A fear creating machine? And that shit goes away after you’ve been away from it for a while? The commonality of the stories is quite telling.

  • loulou

    Exactly soberpj! I have thought the same thing…I started having panic attacks from the floor of meetings. My home group was very brightly lit, had to stand at lectern to share, true step group. At first i thought I needed the discipline, then I realized I was so shit scared to share on the steps wrong that I wasn’t even sharing at this particular meeting about myself anymore, merely parroting whatever step we were on to the best of my ability. Especially when my sponsor was in the room it felt like a damned English speech exam!! To see if I had truly learnt that step properly.
    When I shared openly about how anxious it made me feel everyone laughed in agreement to my confession of the alcoholic perfectionist personality. Seriously wouldn’t most people feel anxious if they had to get up in front of 50 people at a lectern and give a speech on the steps every week of their lives?! Especially hard when all the oldies in the room look to you to inspire the young ones as you have a strong message and ‘the group needs you’, urggh the pressure was immense. That’s when I started going to smaller meetings again, but it just felt like everywhere I went people knew me and wanted me to share because I was such a good example of young sobriety. Then when much older ladies started asking me to sponsor them and give advice on all sorts of life issues I had no place in doing, that’s when the wheels started to fall off for me. Members would say, oh such and such says you’re sponsoring her now….like, oh well she’s been relapsing in and out for years but now she’s under your wing she’ll be ok!! Oh it was terrible. Sure I wanted to help, but it just all started to seem so insane that these people were wanting me to run their lives, and it felt so wrong to do it. Who the he’ll was I to do so?! Then I realized, who the hell were my sponsors to do it to me?!
    I love the quote “the hand that feeds you is the hand that holds you down”…I had to come to grips with my family in a way with that one, cause if i can’t stand on my own others have control over me. guess it kinda works with AA too. They will save us in the beginning, but that same hand that saves then refuses to let us grow to the point where we don’t need the hand anymore – although doesn’t not needing it anymore mean we have truly healed? That’s where the fear comes in, because without instilling the fear that we will die without aa, then those of us who have the ability to leave would never stay.
    Btw, I haven’t had a panic attack in a few months now! Only time I feel anxious is when I contemplate seeing anyone from AA, I’ve realized although I have a couple friends I’d like to see my health is more important, and I know that their main interest is not really in me but in picking my brain and “are you really ok” bullshit that I don’t want to put myself through anymore

  • SoberPJ

    They talk about the fifth step giving so much relief. If I compare how I felt after my fifth step with how I felt after leaving AA, there is no comparison. Leaving was much more freeing than the phoniness of the fifth step. I really didn’t feel any different after that step. But I sure feel different now.

  • loulou

    My grand-sponsor was the matriarch of the fellowship and I was surrounded by an entire family of sponsors…sponsor sisters, aunties…my grand-sponsor was my sponsees great-grand-sponsor…and to my embarrassment (well not anymore, as i realise i know better now so i do better) i was right into it all myself. My ego loved being stroked by all of these invites to speak places and being recognized everywhere I went. I had sponsor and sisters follow me to a meeting if it was my sober birthday with cakes, cards, presents…it really was amazing!! I was love-bombed to the hilt and boy was it a shock to realize it was all conditional. It’s hard to put the experience into words adequately, that’s another reason I don’t write much on here as it all seems such a drop into the ocean of the real experience. It is however nice to talk with others who really understand how all consuming it was. I feel like we are on another life boat after a ship had gone down, except this ship was AA!
    On a side note, I don’t really refer to myself as having been ‘sober’ anymore as that would imply that my life now is ‘not sober’. Rather I think of it as having been abstinent. I feel there’s no way my life would be what it is today without the years of abstinence that I clearly needed, however today I don’t drink over problems and have learned much healthier behavior. It was scary to begin with and I have been very cautious, however all those things I believed for so long are simply not true for me. I am not diseased. I drink responsibly today, end of story. I believe I simply grew up, learned better ways to cope with problems and matured out. Alcohol doesn’t fix anything and i don’t seek it to do so. There are some that chose to remain abstinent after leaving AA and each to their own, I can’t pretend to know what is right for anyone else and for some it is the healthier choice. I must say it has taken time for me be comfortable and confident drinking socially. Thankfully my husband is a very moderate drinker and I don’t think I’d ever had that example in my life before.
    Anyway, that’s just a bit about me.

    Sober pj – I found the 5th step very painful, no release for me either. However, I did get wonderful release when I did the amends steps 8 & 9. Just the same as when anyone apologizes in the real world and owns up to making a mistake, it clears the air and allows you to move forward. I do see the self serving part in it these days, but a good prompt apology when needed in life helps immensely. And none of us need a program to tell us when to do it, just trying to be a good person should cover it – trying not to harm others, and when I do admitting the mistake and trying to learn from it – it’s not rocket science!:)

  • loulou

    Looks like I’m the tail end of this thread anyway, but I’m suffering a case of the personal commenting paranoia shits! Not that anyone knows me from a bar of soap, and I don’t use names…but oh the imaginary threat of anyone from my aa days reading this and knowing it’s me…jeepers!
    Oh well, for my own benefit I wanted to clarify about my last post that it wasn’t so much the conditional caring from my inner group that bothered me, because I totally get that others would want to stick with those following a similar program (‘stick with the winners’ sound familiar?). It was that it was preferential to so many others. In the beginning I liked it and didn’t see how I was favored, in the end I found it quite embarrassing and a little sickening that others didn’t get the same treatment. I guess I was one of those sickening people who got all the pats on the back, whose life came together so well (after hard slog through steps and service mind you!) that I didn’t understand why others didn’t just work the program to get the same results as me. I was a true believer. That’s the crazy part of how much life has changed in the past few months, I simply can’t quite believe what I believed for so long was bullshit and that I am actually ok without it (not dead, insane et al.)
    Back onto this actual topic, I believed the whole geographical thing to the hilt (where ever I go, I turn up! cringe…dur!)…I believed it to such an extent that when I moved a long way from home years ago at 1.5 yes abstinent I dropped my bundle completely, drank again Only for a few days but in a very unhealthy way. It was rammed into my head that I hadn’t found a new sponsor, home group etc and this was why, but it was like a totally self fulfilling prophecy. I believed it would happen and it did. Needless to say I crawled back in like a beaten up puppy and was finally ready to really be beaten into submission. I thought I was lucky I’d didn’t die, maybe I was. So when my life finally shaped up I absolutely believed that aa saved me. So with a story like that why wouldn’t I believe in geographicals? It’s funny though, cause I learnt about it in aa way before it happened to me (i did have times earlier in life that seemed to fit the bill too, but i think when your life is a mess and it follows you around wherever you go that’s not such a surprise is it?) It’s like I learnt the theory then got to play it out in practice. Chicken/egg?

  • Jill

    Self fulfilling prophecy, Loulou.
    I’m glad you didn’t end up in jail or an institution.

  • loulou

    Thanks Jill, although i did spend another 4.5 years in aa after that, so I guess it was a sentence of sorts! 🙂

  • Rick

    I appreciate your posts loulou. They remind me of how I was in my early days in the program.
    It was painful for me when I realized that being “willing” actually meant being compliant. It was a slow process, but I learned a lot from watching those who knew how to play the game and used people like me. I learned a lot from watching all of those people who had been coerced and those who sensed it was bullshit and got out early. The majority of those who had been forced did their time, got their shit together and got on with their lives. Many of them certainly qualified as “real alcoholics” as much as anyone else, so I began to ask myself why the program isn’t structured to encourage everyone to do that? I couldn’t know what happened to all of those who rejected it early, but I knew they all weren’t in jails or dead. I knew enough old-timers to know that I had absolutely no respect for many of them, and the thought of becoming one literally made me sick. I had very few “friends” by the time I left partly because I started asking too many questions, and the treatment I got in response simply turned me into a thought criminal.

  • Jill

    I’m in the middle of a one year,2 meetings a week, sentence for oVI. I had a negative opinion of AA before hand, just didn’t realize what a religion it was. Within the first couple weeks, I had read the BB, AA Cult or Cure, Orange Papers,etc so I was onto them early. I still find it extremely depressing and otherwise unhealthy. I really feel for you,loulou and others here that went voluntarily, seeking help. I’m so glad you got out, yet wonder “why doesn’t everyone?” Oh yeah, not allowed to think.

  • Elisa

    jill — forced into a “voluntary” “self-” “help” “program” == mandated, clueless cookoos, hindered and cult — AA treads a fine line between professional, religious thus avoiding malpractice. That it operates as a religion protects it from legal malpractice (although some parents of kids in abusive boot camps whose kids were injured or killed have sued, I think) and that it operates as treatment allows it to collect insurance dollars. The clique at the top of any given AA community has its tentacles in the political/social/legal/medical communities at large. Pod people. I used to think that pod people think was a stretch, it is not. Cults need to gather and keep as many cult indoctrinated members as possible, safety in brainwashed/fearful of speaking out members numbers keep the cult propagating and the coffers full.

    Rick the “compliance” thing. That is creepy. Compliance is taken from the larger communities psychiatric and jail/probation language. Compliance with a religion forced upon mandated person and unwitting voluntary followers (not so voluntary, considering the referrals from doctors of all kinds are automatic, practically mandated by state law) makes criminals out of ordinary citizens. Forces them into an institution lifestyle on the bottom run. So much of the language is the language only criminals would immediately be familiar with — pigeons, time (jail, doing “time”, how much “time” did you get as in jail sentence”), sponsor (you can’t leave jail without someone in the outside community who is a sponsor, usually an employer or relative), even the geographic, prisoners cannot transfer from one jail to another or even be informed if and when they leave from max to medium security. AA kind of operates like a minimum security prison, you are allowed to leave the room, but must check in with sponsor/parole officer. The number of slogans you throw around is the equivalent of the p-test.

  • @loulou, I searched out your post about the grandmother matriach today, to read out to ‘an AA member who is still suffering’. I appreciate your posts. I was asked why you eventually left and I think that you have already posted this, so don’t post it again if it is uncomfortable. I remember your first post which was not about you at all. I couldn’t remember why you left.

  • Rick

    I was introduced to AA in 1989 when the resources you mention didn’t exist. Some of them were available by the time I left, but didn’t even realize that. I knew nothing about AA until I ended up there. I appreciate loulou’s posts because they sort of describe that internal process I experienced. I have no idea what my experience might have been like if I had access to the information that is currently available. Instead of kicking myself for staying as long as I did, I focus on admitting I traveled a wrong path and found the courage to change direction. I’ve done that in other areas of my life, and it’s usually not easy.

    Elisa, you make great points about the language.

  • It’s funny, the main reason I want to pull a more literal geographic is directly due to how these people have made me feel. The feelings of wanting constant escape stem from only that. The more metaphorical geographic I pulled also dealt directly with meetings, though. I’m not sure how anyone can truly give up cravings or their old mindset while trapped in a cycle of talking about them almost daily. This thread has made me realize just how much I relapsed due to being “trapped in the situation”, both because of the meetings and the people outside of them who felt that this was “the only way”. Once I realized that thinking constantly about this was completely unhealthy, I separated myself. Completely. Er, as completely as I could. I already had no desire to go back to what I was doing before, now I have no desire to go back to any of it.

    This thread, my thoughts and this video post from Mike/Blamedenial.

  • joe

    [name deleted] and [name deleted] are pedophiles.

    Isle Thompson [deleted some messed up interpretation of my home address]

  • david krough

    Ilse Thompson Thank you for supplying the information necessary to arrest [names deleted].

    You have dealt the Mexican Drug Cartel a major headache.

  • Pingback: Thoughts on the “Geographical Cure”: Where would Alcoholics Anonymous be without it? | Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society()

  • Aditi Vedpathak

    Revelation Great post. I met a man I loved a bit at my employment and he feel in affection with me. Me with him in the end. At the same time I was reluctant about him in light of the fact that on our first date his auto entryway of his van tumbled off the pivots and I wasn’t materialistic however when we came back from the motion pictures His VW Van was then towed and the tow individuals seized his charge card cause it was over broadened. That ‘s what they did back them. Not an awful thing.

  • Alan59

    I go to AA now and then . As a Plumber I keep getting asked to do favours fixing things ,I am self employed but as soon as I mention money , they run a mile . Some of the older members seem to exploit the new people and use the threat of disapproval and criticism from the group .I have been 14 years sober and can take AA or leave it

  • Oldwest Annie

    I am late to the discussion, that is okay, I still want to say “Thank you” for the article, you are dead-on. I also, came to this conclusion years back: that this idea of ‘move n lose’ your recovery is a lie and a farse that one gets oppressed by under the AA regime, religion, and kabal. Not only this, I even had a sponsor become upset with me about 2 yrs into the program because I believed amI could handle my own finances and wanted to try doing so, the sponsor even wanted to control my bank account!!! I was also thoroughly brainwashed.