AA’s GSB Turns a Blind Eye to Child Predators in Meetings

Has anyone seen this?

It seems that in 2010, Paul E. Clearly, Trustee of the General Service Board of AA, Inc. submitted a report about child sexual abuse in AA to the GSB’s Subcommittee on Vulnerable Members in AA (I know!). He detailed several shocking instances of predation and implored the GSB to take responsibility for the safety of AA’s most vulnerable members. He concludes:

For a host of moral, ethical, and legal reasons, it’s time for the General Service Board to provide leadership in addressing the issue of child sexual abuse in AA.

Read Paul Cleary’s very revealing 7-page report, “Predators in AA,” and don’t miss the GSB’s predictably despicable abdication of responsibility on the last page. There is some reference to GSB’s response around the web, for instance here,  here and here, but I could find only one  reference to Cleary’s original report (which I was unable to download as a pdf, but could view in google docs).


  • Mona Lisa

    So, the same folks who found themselves more than able (through AAWS) to sue AA members to protect the Big Book copyright in Mexico and Germany, and actually send an AA member to jail in the process, DO NOT HAVE AUTHORITY to take ANY FUCKING ACTION whatsoever to protect MINORS from being RAPED?????

    My God, every time I think I’ve seen the lowest depths this organization can reach, they surprise me again. Disgusting!!!!!!

  • Jonny Quest

    This can be “Exhibit A” for when they write “the decline and downfall of Alcoholics Anonymous”

  • SoberPJ

    To actually do something about a problem, you first have to admit the problem exists. If they admit to a problem of this severity, unwanted attention would be sure to follow. In their minds, to say there is no problem is the most expedient and least costly method of dealing with it. If the pressure mounts, the next phase is to blame the groups that they claim to have no infuence over. Because, hey, everybody knows they aren’t organized ( wink, wink).They just collect money from the downstream organizations. That’s not like being organized or anything. Oh, wait.

  • mikeblamedenial

    Clearly, the only things GSB concerns itself with protecting are copyrights and income streams. No surprise there, especially after the Midtown fiasco and Mexican and German lawsuits. Since they are disinclined to provide warning, we will continuing doing what we do.

  • Jonny Quest

    I still think we’re failing to reach normal people. Sure, those who have been in AA and aren’t brainwashed read this and agree, but most people still only hear from the brainwashed who “LOOOOOVE AA”

    Massive needs to make her movie, and it needs to go viral… people don’t want to read.

  • SoberPJ

    I need to say Wow to this comment from the doc. Talking about the percentage of women in the various XA orgs. Then this –

    ” The Ala-teen survey showed that 62 percent of its members are teenaged girls.In the often intersecting worlds of various 12 Step fellowships, sexual predators have ample access to young potential victims.” Holy. Shit.

    This entire 12 Step ecosystem is tailor made for predators. It is their candy store. Tell me, how could it be made any easier? Seriously.

    I once heard a young girl share that she was having a hard time in the program and for once she would like to have sex with someone her own age. The seriousness of her statement didn’t even register until I started hanging out on this blog. These poor things must be everywhere in the 12 Step ecosystem. AND AA knows it !!!!!!

  • Yup! Disgusting.
    Someone is in deep kim chee! And I think their headquarters are in NYC. Right? In a lovely Interfaith Building on the upper Westside looking over the Hudson River. With 12 million coming in every year. That’s one Million a month. Half of that are not from member donations. Thats why they were trying to get members to give more. The members give the other 6 million. There’s a bunch of money in Treasury Bonds and plenty of Liability Insurance.

    But no warning for minors who are being raped. Sounds criminal to me.

  • SoberPJ

    Every group I was involved with at a business level always used witholding funds from Central Office as some sort of lever for them to cave on issues. I think they thought their $200 a quarter packed more punch than it really did, but hey, they were nothing if not grandious and self-important. Anyway, let’s see. Who would raise the biggest stink about exposing predators in AA and refuse to send CO any money if they brought the “problem” into the spotlight? Think real hard … yep, the groups with the most predators of course. Entire Districts may be operated by predators. Who the hell knows? There is no accountability or oversight anywhere so ANYTHING is possible. Anything.

  • Soberpj- yes yes that’s right.

  • DeConstructor

    This information needs to be publicized.

  • Mr Tobytwirl

    It needs a support group, doesn’t it?
    Something along the lines of
    13th Step Victims Unanimous, perhaps?
    I hope that will happenPerhaps it already is.

  • MikeAugustine

    A religion that doesn’t admit it’s a religion is in no position to admit that it has diddlers in the ranks. There are just too many layers of mendacity in that cluster f**k of an organization.

  • sally

    I’ve seen this. Seems proof that AA knows and has known for years. And no chsnges have taken place all these years. Being they are best equipped to help prevent it (at meeting level is laughable) and continue to wonder “oh what can we do, we have no right to contril,change” but can’t issue an official statement bringing attention to society. Deplorable. Sickness and saddens me, they use attraction to promote and have no conscience. It’s all been said, I can’t do any betters to express it. Maddening

  • Mona Lisa

    Another thing.

    I think it’s fairly obvious that in any group, there are going to be some bad apples, some people who are there to take advantage of others. And, most likely, a group of people who’ve had problems with substance dependence is going to have a larger share of bad apples than the general population.

    The question isn’t whether the bad apples are there, it’s what to do about them, and I am here to say unequivocally that SMART Recovery, when confronted with a bad apple, takes a completely different approach. First of all they have a very clear code of ethics. Then they enforce it–at the corporate level. No bullshit about “each group is autonomous, we can’t do anything”–they will remove an facilitator if necessary, even if it means closing down a meeting. Member safety is paramount to them, as it should be.

  • flannigan

    “But at least they are sober”. This is the sickest, most evil organization that I have ever come in contact with. This is beyond belief. If the GSB won’t acknowledge the problem and take appropriate steps to rectify the problem, then “reform” or “change” is not possible. The GSB just gave the green light to predator groups to continue their abusive ways. How can ANYONE support this criminal behaviour? My god, man, these are children we are talking about. I wish I knew what to do about this insanity. But I am at a loss.

  • Rick

    I would love to see those layers of mendacity get dismantled one at a time through the courts the same way the “spiritual, not religious” claim has been shot down when it’s been challenged. This organization (that ought never be organized) won’t even provide clear definitions of what it actually is. The GSB admits that they have no legal authority and the traditions carry no legal weight, yet people treat them as if they do. The only authority that any of these things have is the equivalent of saying “because we say so.”

    It’s really sad to imagine what must go through the minds of these subcommittee members as they read reports like this. I regret that I lived that delusion for as long as I did. I regret that I turned a blind eye to certain things until cognitive dissonance took its toll and I had to leave. I take a certain amount of hope from the fact that someone even bothered to create a report like this and the fact that it was read by some subcommittee. They are leaving the door wide open for more Midtowns to be created and that will happen. Some of them have to sense that on a personal level, even if they pretend not to see it as a group.

  • SoberPJ

    Yeah, if they won’t do something about the rampant sexual abuse of minors, what in the hell will they do something about ???

  • causeandeffect

    Where has this document been hiding all this time? It’s clear written evidence of AA’s denial of responsibility for the protection of its members. And I assume no group received a copy of this document or someone by now would have said they’ve seen it. I think we should post a link to this as well as a link to all the pamphlets that prove AA recruits from the courts and penal system on every single article regarding violence and predation by members of AA. And I think that when the comments sections go into multiple pages, it should be posted on each page. Hopefully some lawsuits will come out of it. No more deniability for AA. We now have proof positive it has chosen to look the other way.

  • sally

    Sunce their primary goal is to help the recovering alcoholic and group autonomy comes first (sounds so loving and caring) that’s what they are sure to protect. We know the truth.”We don’t care about victims of crime if it deters us from making money and appearing righteous”. Of course the in doctrinatiin of their god. The real primary goals.

  • If AA doesn’t have the authority to even establish a standard for how minors are treated in meetings, then how can it justify encouraging minors to attend? Where do they derive the authority to recruit minors?

    They wrote a pamphlet (disclaimer) about doctor prescribed medications, setting a standard of behavior. Where did they get the authority to do that?

    What I find most galling about their response is the blithe statement that AA “is a microcosm of society.” I can’t believe six people signed off on that and slept peacefully that night.

  • flannigan

    I missed the “AA is a microcosm of society” statement. Civilized (and some not so civilized) societies always protect their most vulneable- the young, the sick, and those unable to protect themselves. AA does not fit this model. AA is a “society” I want no part of and shame on those that support/recommend this abdomination of decent human values.

  • Lucy

    In the U.S., AA ‘s corporate body is organized as a 501(c)3 not-for-profit to avoid paying State and federal income taxes. It encourages larger clubs to incorporate as separate bodies for the same reasons. AA is structured like the Catholic Church is, in that the Church also encourages each diocese to separately incorporate.

    What gives both organizations exemptions from taxes also allows them to be subject to individual and class action civil lawsuits. Loss of one of the lawsuits can lead to organizational bankruptcy, as it did for the Dallas and Boston diocese when they both lost lawsuits for failing to protect their members from the actions of pedophile priests.

    Key pieces of evidence in the Dallas and Boston diocese were internal memoranda discussing knowledge of the problem the pedophile priest and susequent failure to take action to prevent molestation. Had this document been introduced in the U.S., and G.S.B. failed to circulate it to clubs or take action to prevent the sexual assault of members, then the members (separately or in a class action suit) who were assaulted could pursue a civil case against G.S.B.

    I only wonder why it hasn’t happened sooner.

    Massive, have you considered taking some of the victims of rape or assault or pedophila (not consensual sex, no matter how pressured it was) to an attorney? These cases are usually started by a few individuals, and then the attorney advertises, and finds others.

    It only takes one case and one settlement to change the way things work. And, if you really want to stop this behavior, go after the money. It will get the headlines and it will bring the attention you need. And this report would have been platinum in a case.

    What you need is the right attorney, the right set of incriminating documents, and the right victim.

  • causeandeffect

    friendthegirl, I forgot to mention, thanks so much for finding this. I’m sure this document can be used to prove extreme negligence in a court of law. I don’t know how they sleep either. I haven’t had time to read the whole thing yet, just the beginning and end, but I will. I see no plan there of how to inform or address the issue with the groups or intergroups. They just passed the buck without informing the recipients of the buck. If only they had formulated a plan to get groups involved they wouldn’t have been criminally negligent. Its an outrage!

  • KellyRyab

    One brief paragraph that mentions background checks, ie, Big Sister’s, Big Brother’s, and Scouting. A brief mention of the Mid-Town Groups, with no mention of the Pacific Group and it’s guru’s tentacles into AA nationally as well as boasting sponsoring thousands at a time.

    Rebecca Fransway’a book 12 Step Horror Stories was published in 2000. Women for Sobriety began in 1976 by Jean Kirpatrick who spoke of the male abuse in AA. Charlotte Kasl in her book mentions the ineffectiveness of AA in 1993.

    AA is doomed to fail … ineffective on all levels.

  • Mona Lisa

    It seems to me that at the highest levels, “authority” in AA is a matter of convenience. When they want to do something (sue for copyright infringement) they do it, over the objections of the rank and file. When they don’t want to do something (protect vulnerable members) they throw the responsibility back to the groups, notwithstanding the fact that the groups are the very places where the problem has grown and flourished.

    Ugh, I too can’t believe that I was a part of this mess.

  • causeandeffect

    Yup. They’ve stuck their heads in the sand inside a house of cards built on sand with a faultline running under on this one. Doomed to fail.

  • Mona Lisa

    I agree with Lucy. All this needs is the right set of facts (aggravated rape or battery, particularly of a minor) and a good civil rights/class action practitioner. This is so much like the Catholic church scandal.

  • flannigan

    This document may be the “smoking gun” that hastens AA from treatment options that rehabs, doctors, employers, courts, etc. recommend. Let’s hope so.

  • Mona, This:

    notwithstanding the fact that the groups are the very places where the problem has grown and flourished.”

    The response is infuriating for this reason! The way to ensure that predation is not happening in groups is “strong sponsorship”? And who sets the standard for that? Sponsors themselves? Children are currently being abused in meetings, and their response is to transfer responsibility for protecting children back to the very people who are either abusing these kids or under whose nose this is happening.

    Is this how we handle child abuse in the macrocosmic society? As flannigan points out, people protect kids in the wide world. When a child is being abused in the home, does the rest of the world say, “Let the family handle it. It’s up to them to be strong parental figures in their own homes. We have no authority to interfere or even make laws about what is acceptable.”

    If they really believe they can’t protect the kids, how do they justify continuing to recruit kids: http://aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=234

    Again, I can’t believe six people signed their names to this.

    @c&e, I don’t think they took any further action. Just signed their names and forgot about it. What I found online were a few references to the GSB response (I linked to those) from groups who wanted to address it, and no reference to the actual report, which perhaps they never saw. Idunno.

  • SoberPJ

    Ok folks… there is an excellent opportunity to be up front and in person with the AA GSB. There is a regional conference in Woodland Hills, Ca later in the month.


    If you look at the topics of that flyer, it is a total sales job on how to spread the cancer that is AA.

    This is a perfect opportunity to be in their face. And there are soo many things that can be done, even at a distance –

    Contact the hotel and tell them they are possibly hosting registered sex offenders and ask how they will protect the children at the hotel. ( or email)

    Take out personal ads in the local paper notifying the public. And Craigslist, etc.

    Locally, go into the hotel and leave cards by the phones and in the restaurant and wherever.

    Post a placard or street signs near the hotel.

    Picket ( hey, it’s an option)

    Pull a TMZ. Do shout out camera interviews with the members as they walk by.

    And more !

  • What’s so ironic is that they are denying that there’s a problem in the interest of protecting the organization — so that the still suffering alcoholics aren’t afraid to walk in. Also, admitting there’s a problem also means that they’re responsible for it — automatic liablity. But this is festering.

    How hard would it be for AA to say, “Because vulnerable people walk into these rooms, AA is attractive to predators. These behaviors are unacceptable…”?

    It just occurred to me that the list of unacceptable behaviors might actually coincide with normal AA practices, which tend to emphasize inappropriate power dynamics, an over-involvement in other people’s lives, and a disregard of healthy boundaries. That’s probably why they can’t come up with any guidelines for appropriate behavior:

    Don’t give your contact information to strangers?

    Don’t tell strangers anything deeply personal about you?

    Don’t accept rides?

    Don’t go into people’s homes?


  • Lucy

    And again, the fact that the people signed their names says that the fact of sexual predators in AA was acknowledged by the corporate body.

    I guarantee you that no private company would have done that because they would have known that it opened them to litigation. I also guarantee you that a judgement with damages does more than placards, YouTube movies, web blogs, personal ads, etc.

    There was a grassroots attempt to make the Catholic Church accountable for sexual abuse thousands of years. All it got were papal rules that children shouldn’t stay the night in the same room with a priest, and that nuns and priests live in separate facilities. It didn’t stop the abuse any more than I can stop Congress from acting like idiots by writing a letter to the Washington Post. All it did was allow the Catholic Church to claim that the abused victims were crackpots, which is how male AA members treated Massive when she tried to bring attention to the problem and how the GSB treated the people who tried to stop the problem in the UK.

    If you want to stop the sexual assault in AA, you don’t go to the press, picket the meetings or try to get a grassroots revolution. You go to a willing lawyer, present the evidence and hang them by their own rope.

    The Catholic Church was presented with evidence and a request for settlement. It was too arrogant to listen, just as GSB was too arrogant to listen. It thought it would win in the court of public opinion because it “helped so many people” and was the “hand of God.”

    It listens to claims of sexual abuse now, not because it wants to or changed its mind, but because the individual dioceses can’t handle more bankruptcies.

  • disclosure

    I shit you not. I know a man who predated so many AA newcomers he garnered the nick name “newcomerfucker”. I remember once I was standing near him and one of his victims came up to him and said “there’s a new girl over there, don’t you want her?” I commented to his sponsor about his behaviour and he said ” It’s like being a kid in a candy store, you would do it to “. Recently I watched an AA get full disability for stress. I commented that he could easily beat me to a pulp, had no trouble going outside to get a hooker, and was perfectly capable of working. Again I hear the same comment, “you would too if you could”. I only saw one case where I suspected a minor was involved with an adult, they are both still in AA, I did not however go to the young peoples meetings with newcomerfucker or his sponsor.

  • causeandeffect

    ftg, I think this needs to be added to the intro of the KCB series along with any and all other pertinent links.

  • DeConstructor

    Every one in the recovery world, amateur and pro will deny the existence of this document as long as possible.

    If you forward this to anyone in the recovery industry I would strongly suggest using certified mail (best deal ever for under 6 dollars) There is no doubt in my mind that this industry will lie, cheat, and steal at any opportunity to protect itself.

    This document is the hangmans noose of the recovery industry. We need a copy hosted here so this document does not mysteriously disappear from the internet. Additionally all persons in the industry whom this is forwarded to need a paper trail so later down the road it can be demonstrated that they were verifiably aware of the situation.

    This organization will go to about any length to change its history and the skeletons in its closet.

    And this is the skeleton of a 400 lb gorilla.

  • Decon, the link I put at the bottom of the post is the PDF that I uploaded to to ST. 🙂

  • soberbychoice

    I wonder if Newsweek would take on this issue since they were the magazine that followed through on the Midtown scandal better than the other media; ditto the Washington Post. Anyone have contacts at either place?

    I know very little about law, but there is a concept called “piercing the corporate veil” that allows lawsuits to go to the very top of corporations that are hiding behind subsidiaries. Wonder if the reverse would work in an upside down pyramid? Certainly seems Mona Lisa is correct in the observation that this looks like the Catholic church issue. Once the issue is documented and they take no action, it would seem that the charge of negligence gains standing. The law aside, this danged sure pierces the veil of righteousness in which AA has wrapped itself in for much of the public and press. Seems to me this doc and the preponderance of abuses that ST has gathered info on would get some journalist interested in doing an investigaton.

  • DeConstructor

    Thanks for being so tech savvy FTG.

    I have seen docs of this nature just disappear, and this is one that needs to be kept.

  • Jonny Quest

    I always loved the “cartoon” AA had about “Too Young?” – it reads like something R.J. Reynolds Tobacco might produce. I say forward this pamphlet, along with this charming letter here, to any “therapist” who thinks it is a good idea to divert clients to the rooms.


  • KellyRyan

    Does AA have deep enough pockets for a class action suit?

    I’m surprised we haven’t had attorney’s who moved forward on a class action suit against rehabs. 12 step rehabs are known for their forced attendance to AA, (Scripps, Betty Ford, two I am acquainted with).

    We also need a documentary on AA similar to Amy Berg’s on a pedophillac priest, (Deliver us From Evil).

  • MikeAugustine

    I think it’s a good sign that true believers (eg AA Alfie) are starting to call sites like this a hate group. It reminds me of how the catholic hierarchy regarded early efforts to expose abuse as the work of the anti-christ. Ultimately this shows we are being taken seriously by those who once thought we were an anthill to be peed on. They are afraid.

  • Mona Lisa

    Jonny Quest,

    Well I just about threw up reading that “Too Young” pamphlet. I mean I knew it existed, but I never read it before. Blech!

    I guess the AA message then is “Come to us, young one! We are here for you, unless you get molested or raped by one of us. Then, we’ll turn over your protection to the very people who abused you, stood by as the abuse occurred, and told you to look at your part in it!”

  • Mona Lisa

    Oh, good grief, look at this one.


  • Swamibedpan

    @ Mona Lisa
    I just took a quick look at that. A line stood out….to us, it doesn’t matter how old you are.
    What the! Of course it matters! as a father of 2 daughters aged 10 and 12 it matters a lot. I am not gonna read the whole thing but the way that it is written, trying to sound like it was written by a young person, is just plain deceptive and creepy. reminds of a fifty year old pretending to be a 12 year old girl on facebook. Cult religions have no business trying to recruit minors under any circumstances. If this is not totally illegal, then why not?

  • Yes I have read all the above including all the booklets. it makes me sick to my stomach
    and continued to be shocked that child advocate groups are not all over this.Maybe it is a good idea to contact and make this aware to clid advocate groups and DCF etc.
    Alateen has guidelines dealing with minors,and they are a shoot off of AA.
    They told me at Alateen headquarters in Virginia that they have the guidelines because it
    has the word teen it. When I asked if minors were allowed in Alanon-they said yes.
    Do they practice those guidelines there? NO!! Why? Because Alanon does not have the word Alateen in it! OMG this just drives me crazy.

  • What Alateens protective measures mean is that they are not doing it because it is the right thing to do.They are ONLY doing it for liability reasons.CYA.
    I believe we have a good case against AA that they recruit minors-knowing they are inviting them into harms way. That could cause them lifelong emotional damage.
    I just dont think NO ONE has ever challenged this before. But it is a something we need to challenge. Those booklets for teens are horrible. I will post one from NA shortly.

  • Swamibedpan

    How do we stay away from drinking?
    We go to A.A. meetings as often as we can.

    I read some more. You are fuckin kidding me right? You have got to be fuckin kidding.

  • Here is NA’s version of attracting young people.Read the part under” sex and drugs”
    Thi is totally disgusting encouraging teens to open up about their sex life to their sponsor!
    It is really perverted. This should be stopped from being published.


  • Aside from the sex predator issue, I don’t know how they justify teaching children that they have a life-long, progressive disease that they’re powerless over. The statistics show very clearly that most people outgrow (“mature out of”) addiction. This program was never designed for children — as Paul Cleary points out in his report. How dare they? This, in itself, is abusive.

  • Swamibedpan

    @ftg. Exactly. Also how dare they approach children at all about anything. Nobody should be able to approach children with this sort of thing without going through the parents/guardians. By children I mean anyone under 18. The brazen arrogance of it is breathtaking.


    That pamphlet is disgusting, it reminds me of Chick Publishing. Total garbage.

  • Also anybody else doing substance abuse classes has to have a license to handle substance abuse classes. Even in juvenile detention centers-they require background checks for AA/NA members coming from the outside to do meetings.
    Many demand this for adult prisons too. So what I have not been able to get a straight answer on is-if detentions centers require background checks-why is okay in the outside world to throw the minors to the wolves? They are much less at risk having a meeting with all minors inside an institution than outside with adult felons.

  • In fact many teens sent to 12 step is after minor drug and alcohol issues.
    Not needing to be branded as a alcoholic for life!
    Please people read those pamphlets-it has to get attention!

  • Gene

    I got sick reading thorugh 5 pages of the AA crap.

  • Swamibedpan

    Our experiences with sex can include anything from our sexual orientation to break-ups, pregnancy, unmanageability, confusion, and shame or guilt about things we’ve done or things that happened to us.

    Notice how it is all negative. Our experience with sex could easily include beauty,excitement,pleasure and love but then that wouldn’t be setting them up to tell them that they are riddled with fear, dishonest, selfish and self seeking and a zillion other insults designed to smash what little self esteem they have remaining.

  • Swamibedpan

    more from sex and drugs.

    we can make an effort to talk openly with our sponsor and other members we trust.

    What exactly are the sponsors qualifications to be privy to the sex life of a minor? What constraints govern the sponsors conduct? Who? What? is the sponsor accountable to. We are talking about specifically children here. The 12 step religion is fucked ,it is unbelievably fucked.

  • Jonny Quest

    They know that if the get them in young, they will have lifers. One of the most telling lines comes from “A Message to Teenagers,” which has twelve questions to help the teenager decide if they have a problem.

    “To help you decide whether you might have a problem with your own drinking, we’ve prepared these 12 questions. The answers are nobody’s business but your own.

    If you can answer yes to any one of these questions, maybe it’s time you took a serious look at what your drinking might be doing to you. And, if you do need help or if you’d just like to talk to someone about your drinking, call us. We’re in the phone book under Alcoholics Anonymous.”

    So, it’s nobody’s business but AA’s – tell only us – and don’t tell mommy and daddy you are joining a cult, kids !


  • Swamibedpan

    i can remember doing a 12 question thing, but in that one you had to answer yes to 3 of them to qualify. Guess they lower the bar for kiddies.

  • Swamibedpan-Thankyou for including those sections in your post. This is obvious to set up a unhealthy and risky enviroment for a minor. This is not a fellowship.They are acting like they have an education in specific teen issues and sex,like a therapist would.
    But Sponsors have NO training to deal with minors. In fact just being an addict is an indicator of having boundary issues. These sponsors could be convicted violent felons and still qualify to sponsor a minor and ask details of their sex life.WTF is going on here?

    AA/NA lets them print this garbabe knowing the sexual crimes committed against minors?
    I just cant wrap my head around it.Onlt to the point this is madness.Complete madness.

  • Swamibedpan

    i can’t wrap my head around it either. Maybe it’s just me, i haven’t seen my kids in a couple of weeks, no reason, they just had other things going on, but this is really affecting me. I’ve never looked at the stuff aimed at kids before. It is sick as. I really hope i live to see a successful lawsuit, sometime/somewhere. They have been getting away with absolute bullshit for decades.

  • disclosure

    It has always been my belief and vocal position in AA that no minor should attend. My sponsor sponsored a youth and spoke with the parents about the meetings. It was still very creepy and caused me great concern.

  • I know of many Drug Courts in Florida that did stop mandating minors to AA
    a couple of years ago because of the problems they were having with predators.
    But many courts still do. At least some are realizing it is unsafe. But if some courts wont mandate AA anymore then how can they rationalize AA promoting to minors?

  • disclosure


    It is unhealthy and non-competitive for a court to mandate any specific treatment without providing access to a complete list of approved alternatives.

    Please report and email your concerns to:

    This is the USDOJ antitrust division that broke up the ATT telephone company monopoly on January 8, 1982.

    I hate Wiki but here is some background.


  • disclosure

    There is something wrong with my spell check.

  • Mona Lisa

    Well, I’ll tell you something–my daughter saw right through the OA program in about 10 minutes when she was 14. I took her to a meeting because she was having some food issues (and my own head was full of 12 step at the time). She was polite enough, but the minute we got in the car to drive home she told me never again, that it was a bunch of crap and that she needed to learn how to eat correctly, not turn her will over to God.

    Smart kid. Smarter than her mom.

  • Disclosure-good info!

    We need to complain alot!

  • Lucy

    AA as a corporate entity files tax returns. The 2010 showed about $14 million in fund balances as well as tons of assets. EVEN BETTER, Oxley-Sarbanes makes the Board of Trustees PERSONALLY liable for encouraging work with the courts to force predators and victims into the same room. The Board is full of incredibly rich people.

    I’m not a litigator, but I am a lawyer.

  • Mr Tobytwirl

    I think that’s the way to go, Lucy. It requires the involvement of someone with expert legal knowledge who is sufficiently objective and forensic to be really effective. Someone who can be truly objective and dispassionate. Someone who isn’t themselves a victim and thus isn’t prone to lose the plot due to trauma-induced hypervigilance.

  • DeConstructor

    The corporations whose EAP departments force and coerce people to the AA faith have VERY deep pockets.

    They also have an aversion to having their corporate name in the media because one of their employees was raped via a company mandated program.

  • Soberpunk

    What a sickening article. The moment they said Jesus was “giving blowjobs and getting rammed in the ass,” all credibility was lost. Who says crap like that in a report regarding serious abuse allegations? Not to mention whoever wrote it had the grammar skills of a 7th grader. It’s really disgusting teenagers are being sent to AA.(I doubt any of them are there because they want to be.) I can’t believe they have the audacity to compare their organization to the Boys/Girls Club, the Boy Scouts of America, the YMCA and child caregivers. Furthermore, what are full grown men doing hanging out with teenage girls?! The thought of what could happen to a teenage girl in the hands of these people turns my stomach. Who in their right mind would let their teenage daughter hang out with adult men, much less old alcoholic men. It’s a total recipe for disaster. I also love the way they brought up the stories yet no one seemed to be held responsible for the incidents. They brought up the things they could do to deal with the situation, but after reading it, everything they could do is “discuss” it and form new “committees.” They seem to have a “committee” for EVERYTHING except for making changes to make the program more effective and safer for everyone involved. It went from saying its time for the General Service Board to provide leadership in addressing the abuse to them saying its not their problem and leaving it up to sponsors and groups(which have come so far in dealing with the situation.) You would think that if something like this were going on in your organization you’d do whatever it takes to squash that problem not place the responsibility on someone else or send the issue to countless pointless committees to stall on the issue until people forget about it or quit trying to solve it. Sad thing is, this is so typical of these people. The people at the top are just as guilty as the people perpetrating these crimes for not doing anything about it. God, what is it going to take to stop this. Every time I read a new story or article regarding what goes on makes me less and less hopeful that there is going to be an end to this problem. Thanks to all those who are going above and beyond to expose these bastards, keep digging and exposing them for what they really are. Maybe the day will come when all this will come to an end.

  • Mr Tobytwirl

    The following is( in part) a front for promoting steppism, in my view. Priory Lodge Healthcare Ltd run my local “Community Mental Health resource centre”. They also run residential homes and 12 step treatment centres. They run residential homes for the mentally disabled and I believe they also run homes for the elderly. We’ve been too complacent about the covert influence of steppism in the UK.

  • Mr Tobytwirl

  • decon-They also have an aversion to having their corporate name in the media because one of their employees was raped via a company mandated program.

    What? I need to hear this whole story. This stuff just gets crazier.

  • Lucy- WOW! 🙂 I think we have a few lawyers on ST right? Any suggestions?

  • Soberpunk-I know when I read that passage about jesus-I was like’WTF!?’ I could not believe it.I guess it is a reference in the bible that insinuates this was happening in some form-yet nobody stopped it.A bizzare analogy.

    Lucy! Great an attorney! I wonder about letters to DCF and licensing boards need to be aware that this is a big No No!

  • sally

    Sending kids to alcoholics for recovery, spirituality, t is insanity. People want all that addictions swept away. How a “normal” professional doesn’t take a hard look and whig at it all is beyond me. After 75 years of being duped no one wants to admit that it has been inflicting pain. I’ve been educating my boys on this now.

  • Mona Lisa says
    I agree with Lucy. All this needs is the right set of facts (aggravated rape or battery, particularly of a minor) and a good civil rights/class action practitioner. This is so much like the Catholic church scandal.

    Yes! yes! Mona Lisa & Lucy.

  • causeandeffect

    I wonder what slogans the GSB, as well as the local groups, are using to justify turning a blind eye to this. It might be helpful to compile what they are saying to themselves and what would be told to the kids if they try to come forward when they are molested. That way when we write letters, we can prove that this issue is not going to be addressed by either the service structure or the local groups. Please help me out with this. What are some of the things steppers would say to the children, themselves or others to dismiss this kind of information?
    “We’re letting go and letting gawd/placing it into gawd’s hands”
    “Nothing happens in gawd’s world by accident”
    “It must be gawd’s will.”
    “What’s your part in it?”
    “So and so couldn’t have done that! He works a strong program”
    “Don’t be angry, it’s not spiritual”
    “At least he’s sober.”
    “Maybe the kid needs to go out and drink over this so when he/she comes back he’ll/she’ll be really ready to fully surrender.”
    “Some are sicker than others.”
    “You can’t report this to the police. What about his anonymity?”

    Can anybody think of anything else?

  • Mr Tobytwirl

    Meet Mr Franzidis:

  • Mr Tobytwirl

  • Mr Tobytwirl

    No mention of Priory Lodge Healthcare’s entanglement with the oppressive pseudo-religious dogma of 12 steppism then? When an organisation like this takes control of the care of the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped it’s time to be very concerned, in my opinion.

  • causeandeffect

    Oh Jeez, I forgot the biggest one:
    “We can’t let word of this get out, if alcoholics find out about this they will stay away from AA and die.”

  • Lucy -okay I just read your post. @Massive, have you considered taking some of the victims of rape or assault or pedophila (not consensual sex, no matter how pressured it was) to an attorney? These cases are usually started by a few individuals, and then the attorney advertises, and finds others.

    Yes. Your post was spot on. Can we talk through email. I will tell you.

    Everyone here can help. I am trying to see how to set up some kind of community pages so we communicate more privately.

  • Lucy and Mona Lisa can you email me? I have some ideas. makeaasafer@gmail.com
    or info@mysaferecovery.com

  • Mr Tobytwill There is a big story here as well. I can only handle so much on my end but I do plan to visit the UK this year. I watched one video. they remind me of the Hollywood types who push AA. Charlie Sheen was the first to fight back and expose.

  • MrToby, I noticed that in the orange papers, it says that Europe takes a saner view. I am not so sure. Every rehab that I have contacted was run on 12 step lines, except one, and that involved a year’s stay with absolute micromanagement, eg no sugar, no locks on any doors, handing over all benefit money. Every other was 12 Step. And Amy Winehouse’s dad wants to open one in her memory.

  • Mr Tobytwirl

    I think they’ve learned lessons from the Amerian experience and the gathering backlash. They are operating here with much more stealth and subterfuge. The courts are also much more involved than is generally recognised, as I had confirmed by AA’s UK headquarters at Stonebow House quite a long time ago. A mixture of the plausible deniability we discussed earlier and an “opportunistic” exploitation of economic collapse make it possible now for them to pursue this agenda vigourously and ruthlessly. We ain’t seen nothing yet.

  • Toby, I can send you a load of my posters, if you like. I have sent a load to Glasgow and Edinburgh because Stanton Peele is speaking there in September but (to save 57p each time) I am going to a different city every fortnight and delivering them by hand. I know vaguely where you live and it is nowhere near me.

  • Mr Tobytwirl

    This beast is truly global now and I think it’s very ugly.
    I hope you enjoy a break in the UK, Massive. I’d suggest you might check out the “Vision for You” meetings listed in the UK aa “where to find” meeting, if my info isn’t too out of date and they haven’t morphed into differently named sub-cults. You’ll find them represented in central London, especially in the posh celeb meetings around Knightsbridge and Chelsea where they all liked to say hello to Eric, Elton, Tony (Hopkins) etc., etc.
    At least Elton had the sense to move on. Perhaps he got sick of having to make so many cups of tea at the “Stars on Sunday”, meeting, as it was popularly known.
    I always felt more at home at the “Headbangers 1” and “Headbangers 2” meetings when I was in London. They told funnier stories there. A highly eccentric friend once took the chair and deliverd a half hour long allegorical story about a squirrel gathering nuts.
    It was met with a stunned silence, then everybody went home .

  • http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/903392-to-consider-aa-a-dangerous-cult?reverse=1

    It is a terrible shame that this post is going to end at 1000 posts. It has been most informative.

  • Mr Tobytwirl

    “list” not “meeting”.

  • SoberPJ

    Ya know, somehow this one has made me numb. Actively recruiting young people into an environment they know is filled with predators is simply beyond the pale for me. Then, not doing anything substantial about the predation sends the level of atrocity into the stratosphere. I’m beyond disgusted and angry with AA.

  • Rick

    C&E, I had no direct knowledge of anything involving minors, but as far as that excuse making went, the tendency was usually to minimize the intent of the perpetrator, especially if they had a lot of “time”. The most common slogan was some variation of “some are sicker than others”. Generally speaking, the more time someone had, the more they would be defended, no matter how slimy they might actually be.
    The most common assumption I noticed in any situation involving sexual behavior was that it was consensual as in, “it takes two to tango”. I remember hearing lot of jokes about “rehab romances” based on the assumption that newcomers were always looking for relationships to fix them. Some sincerely wanted to protect them, but I rarely saw anyone interfere if someone wanted to take advantage of the situation either, especially if the person involved was viewed as a guru.

  • DeConstructor

    ‘rehab romance’ the rough equivilant of LURD in a womans prison.

  • Mona Lisa

    Actually it was the Midtown scandal, involving minors, that was the catalyst to my decision to leave the program 4 years ago. I got the Newsweek in the mail and charged off to a meeting with the article about the scandal in hand. I was livid; I could not believe that this had happened and that the response of corporate AA was “no comment”. I left the meeting even more livid, because the response of my fellow AA’s was that the situation would give people the “wrong idea” about AA–people would think this sort of thing happened frequently in the rooms.

    “But it DOES actually happen frequently!” I remember saying. “It happens a lot! It happens right here, in our town, in our meetings! This isn’t some sort of one-off aberration–It’s a big problem!” And I tell you, they did not care. They did not care, these spiritual giants who were so special that they couldn’t even communicate with normies because normies don’t understand what it’s like to live a life of Rigorous Honesty. All they cared about was that the reputation of AA was at stake.

    That is when I knew, really knew, that something was very wrong with AA.

  • flannigan

    @Mona Lisa
    AA is a fraud, a scam, a dishonest organization, from top to bottom. It only exists to promote itself. This sick organization is now being exposed for what it really is. It is about time.

  • Rick

    I guess so Decon. I had to look that one up. I agree with SoberPJ in that the more I think about this stuff, the sicker I feel. I have no direct evidence of anything, but so much of what I observed makes sense now, and it all reminds me of just what a sick fucking closed-off world AA actually is. I think about all of those May-December romances I saw that began with a guru “protecting” a newcomer. In reality, it was all part of a subtle grooming process. Steppers love to claim that AA gives them the “freedom” to recover the way they like, but I see what a miserable joke that actually is now. AA provides complete cover for most anything that a person might want to get away with.

  • flannigan

    AA exists in the general public’s mind as an organization that helps alcoholics stop drinking. Nothing could be farther from the truth. An organization that does not come right out and condemn child abuse within its ranks does not deserve anything but distain. AA is sick. And dangerous to all who enter “the rooms”. The medical community should be ashamed of promoting/recommending AA to sick people who are only going to get abused there and get a whole lot sicker. AA is finally being exposed as the fraud it is by sites like ST and Orange Papers and More Revealed. It is about time.

  • flannigan

    And on top of this, the AA program does not work to help alcoholics overcome their addiction to alcohol. It is a total failure as a treatment of alcoholism. So why then does AA exist? To promote AA, that’s why. See, it all makes sense (not).

  • Gene


    Go onto this blog and support the author (it’s actually my pen name here)

  • SoberPJ

    Gene ..ya got this wrong

    ” I encourage you to visit the blog http://www.stinkin-thinkin.com or email the administrator of the blog at makeaasafer@yahoo.com. The creator of this blog is also filming a documentary that will expose the truth about AA and how our justice system is in bed with the 12 step drug treatment industry.”

  • Gene

    Let me know what the correct info is so I can edit it 🙂

  • SoberPJ

    friendthegirl – blog: http://stinkin-thinkin.com email: friendthegirl@stinkin-thinkin.com

    MassiveAttack – blog: http://stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com/ email: . makeaasafer@gmail.com or info@mysaferecovery.com

    She is making the movie, not ftg.

  • SoberPJ

    Gene, I posted the info but it is awaiting moderation because of all the links.. not sure when it will get posted..

  • Gene

    Done! Thank you

  • Gene ok I went there quickly and ranted but I gotta go
    Sober pj thanks!

    I will be interviewing Keeper this week. Her son was molested & murdered by his AA sponsor in the South.
    The FBI & the Federal Marshall’s caught a ring or 22 men targeting AA meetings & rehabs for teen boys!!!!!

    The tide has turned.

  • http://www.icypaahost.org/

    can anyone meet me here to do some activist work?
    even if we just do one day. one night

  • DeConstructor

    How is this photo for serenity?


    This is the bed/altar that Warren Jeffs used for his 9 to 12 year old polygamist ‘brides’ The photo was released as his trial is going on.

    Not only was it used for these assaults, but also there were areas for required witnesses to be in attendence of this ritual.

    I think he may be looking for some type of 12 step program. It suits his style.

  • Mona Lisa

    Warren Jeffs is the ultimate in creepiness. Even Bill W. can’t hold a candle to the ritualized sexual abuse of little girls in the name of God. He needs to stay in jail forever.

  • sally

    I’ve been opposed to the death penalty for a long while now. Mostly do to my religious beliefs. It’s stuff like the above story/pic, and in the “name of god” crimes that make me rethink my view. It’s heart wrecking.

  • sally

    Massive, I’m all for for in depth activism for myself. But CA. Very long tad for me at this time. Closer to the midwest and I am there 🙂

  • MW

    OMG I know all the people from the icypaa host group. This is a good group to start with. Rampant abuses. You will find some older men on the host committee, no doubt. I can’t believe this shit. I wanna throw bricks. I just hope the attack against AA is organized, thorough, timed correctly, and planned quietly. If done well, you can take the whole org. Down.

  • MW

    I am going to.PDF and photocopy these letters and hand them over to the press in the area right before icypaa. These letters should be copied and handed out to everyone!

  • MW- Thanks. Each of us seems to be do our own form of activism. I have a feeling this would be a worth while trip. Am I right?
    I made the Letter to the AA member a bit better if you want a copy. And Sallys Letter to the professional is fantastic .

  • sally

    Feel free to use it 🙂 anyone can emil massive or me for it.

  • MW – ABout how many attend the icypaa in San Fran?

    Is anyone here from there? Would anyone meet me there? Just one day one night.


    this is taken from the Charities and Paid Solicitors Laws and Regulations. NOTE: Federal tax law requires that charitable organizations make available for public review at their principal offices copies of their exemption application, Form 990, 990EZ or 990PF returns for the three most recent years, and that charities also provide copies of these documents to any person who sends the charity a written request. The charity may charge reasonable copying fees and actual postage costs for mailing the documents. Individuals who have been denied access to or copies of the exemption application or Form 990 by a charitable organization may call IRS Customer Account Services at (877) 529-5500 (toll-free-number) or write to
    Internal Revenue Service TE/GE Division Customer Service P.O. Box 2508 Cincinnati, OH 45201

  • Mr Tobytwirl

    WSS inc.
    If you send them to Cuddly Monster Recovery Alternatives
    Curzone Road
    LL30 1TB
    they’ll probably arrive OK.
    I use this address as a “spam filter”.

  • Mr Tobytwirl

  • OK Toby!

  • Mr Tobytwirl

  • MW

    I am from there. There will be hundreds of people there, maybe more. Unfortunately, I cannot show my face there for reasons I will not state publicly. I also don’t think it is a good idea to talk about game plans even in blog comments. You have NO IDEA how many of the AA faithful pay attention to these sites. There are some very faithful (and crazy) Pacific Group clones in the Bay Area YPAA groups. The older men that attend these YPAA events are very protective of their “right” to predate at these events and meetings. I think I can be of most help behind the scenes.

  • Lucy- you are right @If you want to stop the sexual assault in AA, you don’t go to the press, picket the meetings or try to get a grassroots revolution. You go to a willing lawyer, present the evidence and hang them by their own rope.

    The Catholic Church was presented with evidence and a request for settlement. It was too arrogant to listen, just as GSB was too arrogant to listen. —

    I am listening! Thanks 🙂

  • Mr Tobytwirl

    I don’t think stepzealots are the only people with an interest in monitoring sites like this. They are mostly fully duped and blindly obedient useful fools. The ultimate agenda, in my opinion, is the imposition of a phony one-world religion, whether imposed by stealthy persusion or brute force.
    But then, along with Alex Jones and others, I’m a paranoid conspiracy nut (and I’ve got the diagnosis to prove it). It doesn’t give me sleepless nights though. I keep my anger down to a manageable level these days through music, art and hill walking in Snowdonia.
    Uncle Bob was warning us about this sort of thing in 1963, but not many of us really listened too closely:

  • Mr Tobytwirl

  • http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/members/pdf/guidelines/G34.pdf

    Ala Teen has rules and regulations and protocols!

  • Trey Ferber

    Creative writing – I was enlightened by the specifics . Does anyone know
    if my assistant would be able to find a template 2007 CA DE-160/GC-040
    copy to complete ?