A.A. Alfie: The Iron Man of Alcoholics Anonymous

A thread started over at the James Randi forum almost a year ago, and since that time “A.A. Alfie” has been trying to convince a group of skeptics that they aren’t seeing what they’re seeing, and that AA is not a religious program. They aren’t buying it, of course. I haven’t read through the entire year’s worth of comments, but Alfie seems to have knocked out multiple opponents with filibustering and quirky rationalizations. It’s an impressive display in stamina. He’s the Lou Gehrig of AA apologists.

I double-dog dare anyone to take this guy on. The first person to get him to concede a point gets a “One Day At A Time” serenity calendar, and my ever-lasting admiration.

Here is the original post that started it all:

Why Do People Insist AA Is Not Religious?

“I’m dealing with a spouse who has alcohol issues. His first therapist (social worker) told him to go to a Beginner’s AA meeting, and to “Keep An Open Mind.”

He went, and was instantly uncomfortable. Not only was Jesus Christ mentioned constantly as the Savior, but the meeting ended with, “The Lord’s Prayer.”

He related this to the social worker, who berated him for not going to a Beginner’s meeting. (Which it WAS listed as.) And then told him that, “The Lord’s Prayer” is not really religious, anyway.

My husband now sees a psychologist who specializes in cognitive behavior and doesn’t push AA.

Now I’m furious that MY new therapist is telling me that AA would be a good resource for my husband. “It’s not religious, it’s spiritual,” and “Your higher power can be anything at all, the ocean, even yourself.”

I’m not confrontational, and I tried to remember some of the advice I’ve received here about debating. I told her that I had done research on AA, that it had a 5% success rate, and that the Supreme Court had ruled that it was religious. Then I started to get emotional and told her that it was all based on a Buchmanite group designed to get people to accept Christ as the Savior, and that the Higher Power stuff was nonsense, since sure, it starts out as, “the ocean,” but ends up referring to God. And the “higher power” definitely CANNOT be yourself, since it has to be some outside force. As Henry Ford said of his cars, you can have any color you want so long as it’s black. Well, you can have any Higher Power you want so long as it’s God.

As former Catholics, my husband and I tend to get a bit touchy when religion is sold to us. It is very difficult to get away from, “Magical Thinking,” and I’ve been working so hard to restructure my thoughts, to think more critically, to learn about logic, and to question things. And it took a lot for me to “talk back” to my therapist about this, and I still feel guilty, like I should just accept it as good advice. Such is the mark that being a good little Catholic girl leaves on person.

I feel so angry that the majority of people don’t question AA at all.”

  • A.A. Alfie is quite the character. First he claims that AA has no governing body and corporate AA does not dictate any policy, then he tries t prove that AA doesn’t follow a particular policy because corporate AA hasn’t admitted it.

    http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?s=2abcb0d6e62f593c17fd2969898a5418&p=7293846&postcount=3813

    Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
    What evidence do you need to prove that AA is anti-psychiatry?
    Oh I don’t know. Perhaps something that proves that AA (not some members) are anti-psychiatry.

    A.A. Alfie’s reply……………………….

    Maybe:
    – letters from central office.
    – official correspondence.
    – even big book references (in context) might even nudge it.
    – grapevine articles might do it.
    – website statements.
    – offical policy documents – maybe you should ask Tinyal to get them from the secret archives (lol).
    – surely it’s in the suggested steps and traditions? What’s that? It isn’t!? Well I’ll be ….!

    As I say, anything that shows AA is not anti-psych.

    You see, I can show anecdotally too that AA is pro-psych and pro-meds simply by usung the same level standards that you do. Anecdotes are evidence, but they are very very weak.

    It’s your claim mate, the onus of proof is on you.

  • Sally

    I’ve believed for months that AA got some of the program from Christian Science practices.
    To me AA is definitely a healing religion in which by sacrificing (confession of sins), and making amends, one would be absolved of sins and therefore be worthy of Gods new will and cleanse us. Then be free of a mental disease, alcoholism.
    Christian Science: A Religion that Heals through Spiritual Law

    http://www.christianscience.org/ReligionHeals.htm

    Here are a couple of excerpts from the lecture.

    It can be stated without any reservation whatever that every person who is willing to do so may learn through Christian Science how to heal sickness and to destroy, for himself and others, the desire to sin.

    True religion consists of spiritual truth, and not of erroneous beliefs; hence it follows that one’s religion is limited to the amount of spiritual truth he knows, and that erroneous religious beliefs are only so many delusions that serve no other purpose than to obstruct spiritual growth.

    The trouble with most of us has been that we have believed erroneously without knowing it.

    Christian Science aims to destroy erroneous religious beliefs by substituting a knowledge of truth in place thereof, and to destroy out of the human mind all evil qualities by planting good qualities in their stead. It wages relentless warfare against all wrong mental qualities. It seeks to substitute love in place of hate, unselfishness in place of selfishness, honesty in place of dishonesty, and truth in place of error.

    It will thus be seen that Christian Science healing in every case is spiritual, and results from the operation of Truth, or divine Principle, in human consciousness, and not from the action of one human mind upon another, nor from human will, nor from hypnotism, nor from mental suggestion.

    The importance of this cannot be overestimated. All sin, disease, and death come from the belief of life, intelligence, sensation, and substance in matter. If it be true and it now seems to be settled. -that there is no life in matter, that it has no sensation or intelligence, and is not substance, then it follows that all material theories concerning disease, and the method of solving all human problems, will have to be changed from a material to a spiritual basis.

  • As I’ve stated in blog comments elsewhere recently, AA members BELIEVE AA is not religious.

    That’s a huge (5,000 posts) thread, and just glancing at it there’s three types of participants: Pro AA posters/AA members, those like us who KNOW what AA is, and others not familiar enough to have a clue. To the uninitiated AA is a complex and slippery entity, and it’s hard to know what AA statements can be taken at their word or what they REALLY mean. We absolutely need to educate those who are not familiar with AA (or other cults).

    I see there’s something about AA members telling others that they “aren’t sober” if they take prescribed medications. I recall an AA pamphlet form the ’60’s, I forget the name of it, that discusses people committing suicide because they went off their meds at the urging of other AA members. Does anyone recall the title of that? Has it already been posted in that thread?

  • Wayne Kernochan

    Medication and other drugs in AA…..I believe

  • Wayne Kernochan

    It was a pamphlet

  • causeandeffect

    Hi Wayne. Nice to see you again.
    Here it is. I really don’t want to take alfie on, I have other things to do right now. Somebody have at it.
    http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-11_aamembersMedDrug.pdf

  • I have been meaning to get into that thread over on Randi, but it makes me feel so, so very tired just thinking about it.

  • I don’t believe the thread on that server will let you leave links. To get around that you can tell them to search for “p-11_aamembersMedDrug.pdf”. The pdf itself will not allow you to copy and paste from it, so you will also have to type any quotes out. But that pamphlet does provide all of the information they need to know who is telling the truth.

    I love the “I have never seen that happen in my group” types. They are usually the ones that say they don’t recruit the criminal element and no one is court ordered. They are usually also the ones that are the leaders in the Hospital and Institutions (H&I) groups that go to the jail looking for “prospects” every week.

  • It does appear that you can leave links on that site. Now they are fighting over the fact that the pamphlet was made in 1984 and it no longer applies, and is not current AA policy. Of course this is the same AA policy that they were just fighting to prove didn’t exist. They are also forgetting that this policy which doesn’t exist is still being distributed by the AA corporation that sets policy which also doesn’t exist.

    Very interesting……… defending a corporation that doesn’t exist, a Religion that isn’t a Religion because it is Spiritual, trying to explain that being Spiritual means finding a Religion and the corporation that doesn’t exist that sets the policy of Alcoholics Anonymous through “conference approved” distribution of material by members of Alcoholics Anonymous by a website owned by a corporation run by Alcoholics Anonymous.

  • MikeAugustine

    Echoes of Dombeck’s Mentalhealth.net ‘Is AA a Cult?’ long-running thread are still banging around in my head. Not sure I have the stamina to go at it again with the AA Taliban. Maybe another time.

  • I’m in, godhelpme. MA, I have a resentment.

  • Interesting fight over on that thread called “Why do people insist AA is not religious? ” good old A.A. Alfie is doing the old boxing “duck and jab” maneuver, insisting that it is Spiritual and not Religious. The threads name is “Why do people insist AA is not religious? ” , I can’t wait until someone asks him “Why is HE insisting that AA is not religious?” That is what the thread is about isn’t it?

    It kind of reminds me of the old Abbot and Costello “Who’s on first” skit.

  • mr. mike

    Friendthegirl, never forget it’s all mind games with the AA people. You’re better off never debating guys like “AA Alfie” – they’re convinced, and they won’t get skeptical until the progam blows up in their face or they look at their watch and realize they’ve wasted 10 years in AA.

  • raysny

    I’m waiting approval.

  • @Mr Mike; couldn’t agree less. I came across the orange papers when lurking on an AA site. It was in the context of posters discussing a poster who had been banned for talking about the orange papers. You never know which desperate soul might be lurking and then find out that they are not alone, not mad, not even diseased.

  • Z

    @Sally, I’ve thought that, too.

  • Poor A.A. Alfie, he has the bait and switch tactics of corporate AA down pat.

    1. Claim that “facts” prove that AA works and claim “studies” prove it.
    2. Only rely on “studies” done by the followers of the prophet Bill Wilson as being “fact” based, all other studies are anecdotal.
    3. Forget that the studies done by the followers of the prophet Bill Wilson are completely anecdotal and claim they are “facts.”
    4. Attack any claims against the prophet Bill Wilson and his beloved AA program by the use of “age” (i.e. time in the program, date of the study, age of the person doing the study).

    He seems to have forgotten the inherent “Research limitations” of the Bill Wilson flock. They remain Anonymous and any studies done on them is extremely susceptible to sampling bias and anecdotal evidence. He then attacks any studies critical of AA using time in the program, date of the study or age of the person doing the study and then claims they are using anecdotal evidence using anecdotal evidence.

    All evidence is anecdotal when you look at the root cause of any information. He is a master of word manipulation and will always fall back on this. You can never pin him down, because he will tell you what he needs for evidence and when you give it to him he will immediately attack that evidence as anecdotal using anecdotal evidence.

    Classic case of “circular thinking” which will eventually cause an overload in the circuit and complete melt down.

  • Lucy

    As Ben said, a great many AA members believe AA isn’t religious. In fact, they believe that if you think AA is religious, then you are the one who is close-minded.

    Arguing with self-imposed ignorance wears me out, but have fun with Alfie.

  • causeandeffect

    It’s the “AA’s not religious because AA says it’s not religious because AA’s not religious because AA says it’s not religious because AA’s not religious because AA says it’s not religious…ad infinitum” argument.

    The people on that site making excellent points but are trying to nail jello to the ceiling in trying to get alfie to concede. I’ve been tempted to jump in but I’ll be busy for a few days. Ray, don’t you have an article that says 1in 8 people are told to get off their meds? I couldn’t my link to it, so please post it here for me.

  • MikeAugustine

    I read a few of alfie’s latest posts and will concede that he is respectful and bright. This is in sharp contrast to the tony j and mcgowdog brand of true believer I’m more accustomed to.

  • MA

    He’s also full of bullshit rationalizations. I do like that forum, though.

  • Sally

    He says AA can be religious if you want it to be…I want it to be, therefore it is.

    And I want my HP to save me from sin and drinking… therefore my higher power will?

  • flannigan

    Question- Do higher powers have a higher power? If so, how can they tell themselves apart?

  • SoberPJ

    There is one that has ALL power, that one is gawd, may you find him now… look under the sofa.. or in the clothes dryer. HE has to be around here somewhere…. Wait, if HE has all the power, where is mine? I mean, does HE share? Ohhhh, it’s a grant of power. I get a tiny sliver of power if I do the right things.. I get it now, he’s a power broker and the price for getting my sliver of power is being in AA and doing AA things. But wait, other people seem to have the power to live decent lives without the AA gawd? What’s up with that? Oh, that’s right, I drank too much and that changes the whole thing. I’m a worthless piece of shit human being that can’t think or act on my own so I have to petition gawd on a daily basis for the power to live my life according to HIS will. It’s for the best that gawd and AA run my life. I’m just not capable. They are, so I think I’ll let them. I need a new pair of glasses. No really, I need new glasses.. ha!

    So, did gawd tell all those AA suicides to do themselves in? I mean, were they doing his will? Are those AA murdering pyros that kill people and burn their house down doing gawd’s will? This is all such bullshit.

  • I see the discussion has reverted back to the old “Your not an Alcoholic”, “Your a Normie” or “You haven’t worked the program” so you don’t know what you are talking about defense.

    “I’d say nothing here has ever exceeded anecdotal, and too much of that is from people who state they are not alcoholics and have never attended an AA meeting.”

    I wonder what answer they would give if someone asked them who sends people to these programs? I am sure that many doctors, court systems and politicians could be considered a normie, not an Alcoholic or never worked the program. I guess we should disavow all of thier decisions also.

  • Ooops… fat fingered my avatar again….. fixed

  • cherokeebride

    I occasionally post on the Randi forum (huge skeptic, which is why AA threw up my bs detector early) but I have never been able to post on that thread because, like FTG said, it also makes me so very, very tired. It makes me feel like a bad skeptic and critical thinker, but there it is.

  • My Higher Power is more powerful than all AA Members’ High Powers – MY Higher Power has CURED me of The Disease of Alcoholism!

  • Mike O

    Interesting thread. Honestly I enjoy it when a dyed-in-the-wool 12-stepper puts out his arguments, even if they’re facile and duplicitous. At least it challenges us to define our own beliefs. Otherwise, it’s just an anti-AA circle jerk.

  • Sally (2nd comment down),
    You are examining similarities between Christian Science and A.A. The Twelve Step religion has multiple spiritual roots, but I found this in PASS IT ON, the official A.A. biography of Bill Wilson:

    On pg. 230 Bill Wilson notes he has had “a couple of conversations with early Scientists. They say that Eddy [2] assiduously kept the business and work separate.”

    The footnote [2] states on pg. 231, “Christian Science founder Mary Baker Eddy, whose life Bill had studied.”

    There is more information about this, I just can’t remember where.

  • Sally

    Ahh yes, Mary Baker Eddy. She got insanely rich by spreading the word and teachings of her miracle cure…Thanks for the info John.

  • Anonymous JREFer

    “I read a few of alfie’s latest posts and will concede that he is respectful and bright.”

    They remove offensive posts into a members only section of the forum called “Abandon All Hope” that can be searched by member.

    slingblade (speaking to tinyal): Thanks for your support, man. My respect for you, your struggle, and your sobriety knows no bounds.

    A.A. Alfie: vomit

    Whatever Alfie is, he is not respectful. He probably came to this blog and realized his audience expanded and smartened up. Alfie, you’re a jerk, apologize to slingblade in the thread or just go away, you’re a disgrace. Actually, stick around, you make the program look absolutely horrible. You and your buddy all Albell who thinks the thread will stop alcoholics from getting help!

  • MikeAugustine

    @aj, thanks for the clarification on alfie. I guess it was too much to hope for that a true believer would play nice.

  • Ah…. Ha …. The truth comes shining through about A.A. Alfie and his motives and agenda. He/She/It is a Rehab Counselor and gets paid to talk people into joining the flock of the prophet Bill Wilson…………………….

    “I don’t like labelling my clients and avoid doing so in most instances. That said, I do have a bit of a grading scale that I use for my own purposes when considering a treatment program with and for the client. This is by no means meant to be comprehensive, but I rank them a biit like this:

    Alcoholic – total dependance, huge problems, inability to stop.
    Problem drinkers – can stop, but have problems when they do drink
    Heavy drinkers – no major problems, and have the potential to drink as much as the above two categories.
    I have no name for this category but it’s people like (say) my sister. Gets pretty pissed about twice a year, drinks safely the rest of the time.
    Social drinkers – drink safely.
    Tea total

    http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=7299160#post7299160

  • A.A. Alfie

    Come on guys, I am ready and waiting.

    I must say it is very gratifying to have a whole thread here dedicated to me. I feel truly honoured.

    So brink it on. Have a crack at me – I love the attention and it gives me the opportunity to diagones mental health discorders and keep my hand in.

    Chhers

  • Swamibedpan

    @A.A.Alfie. I don’t have a mental health discorder or a disorder that has been diagonesed or diagnosed but chhers anyway. Are you drunk? We know you are ready and waiting because I am in Australia and it is the middle of the night elsewhere, clearly you don’t have much else to do. i don’t want to know what you keep your hand in . AA is a cult religion that recruits aggressively and deceptively by pretending to be treatment for substance abuse. It does not work and it harms people, a lot of people and sometimes very badly. That is all the attention you will ever get from me. Wise up.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Thanks for playing.

    “Chhers” (I reckon we must both be drunk). OOps, mine was just a typo, what’s your excuse?

    Anyhow….

    It is nice to have my own fan club here – deeply gratifying. Sadly I can dedicate no time to this forum on an ongoing basis; I really don’t like arguing with fanatical CTers.

    Off to a meeting now to 13th step some women, tell others to get off their medications, and see whom else we can convert to evil religions, whilst chanting intonations to the devil.

    Sadly my last post here. I’m off to play with the grownups at JREF.

    By kiddies.

    Mwahahahahaha.

  • MA

    Alfie is an actual addiction counselor? Awesome!

  • Swamibedpan

    @MA. Shouldn’t you be in bed. Anyway did he really not get the chhers thing? He was struggling there. Look man it’s like staring into the eye of suaron. would whoever has the magic ring, just throw it into the volcano and we can all go back to the shire.

  • MikeAugustine

    Thank god, with jd crushed, Tony j gone missing, mcgowgod on meds and mr aa laying low I was worried that this would be a dry summer troll-wise.

  • I see we now have a new friend. I would like to know what he thinks about psychotic obsessions and OCD. From what I understand, these are difficult to diagnose. As with any obsession, people are in denial about having them, as well as the dangers associated with them. Obsession with a particular brand name has been studied. This can happen with a particular group activity such as a sports team or a product such as candy. I believe that he may be obsessed with AA and have OCD because of it.

    There are different levels of any OCD. Lets use a different product to show an example. Lets identify some of the traits that someone who is extremely addicted to a candy, such as PEZ, and see if they seem similar to someone extremely addicted to AA.

    1. Assumes a “nick name” associated for the product for many years. (i.e. PEZisGR8, PEZtheBEST, etc……)
    2. Continually relates all conversations back to the product. (i.e. Oh, you want to quit smoking? Pop a PEZ in your mouth, etc……)
    3. Seeks out and maintains a job relating to the product. (i.e. Candy Distributor, etc….)
    4. Continually attempts to convert users of other products to the one they have chosen. (i.e. That sweet tart is good, but wouldn’t you rather have a PEZ?, etc…)
    5. Collects memorabilia on the product and proudly displays it.
    6. Collects literature on the product and proudly displays it.
    7. Is extremely dependent on the success of the product because if it fails, thier entire world will come crashing down because they have put all of thier life into promoting and living off the success of the product.

    Some of the problems that someone hopelessly addicted to PEZ will say.

    1. How do you know you won’t like PEZ if you have never tried it?
    2. Yes, PEZ can cause tooth decay, but everything can cause tooth decay.
    3. What is worse, smoking cigarettes which will kill you, or popping a PEZ in your mouth?
    4. Of course PEZ is the best candy around, millions of people will agree with me.
    5. PEZ has its problems just like anything else, won’t you go to the PEZ rally with me tonight and find out for yourself? It’s free, but you can give donations, most people only give a $1.

    This traits of this type of person is highly prized by a corporation and they try to attract them as much as they can. They will never admit they are being manipulated by a corporation and claim they are doing this because of popular opinion. What they don’t realize is that a corporation has built this demand by “Brand Marketing.”

    AA is a corporation that has attracted people like this because of thier “Brand Marketing” and they are perfect free salesmen for the corporation.

  • flannigan

    Was that the “real” AA Alfie? Why do these “AA gurus” even come to a website such as Stinkin-Thinkin? Me thinks there is a hidden agenda.

  • SoberPJ

    So, Alfie .. let’s start with motivation for being on this blog. I am here because I believe the AA Corporate approach to self-help substance abuse “treatment” is deceitful, manipulative faith healing non sense. I post here to add my perspective so that others may be helped to see the absurdity of the 12 Step approach. And, posting here has been therapeutic for my deprogramming from the brainwashing I have received in AA.

    So, as clearly and concisely as you can, please state your reason for being on this blog.

    Just so you know, any response that does not directly address the question, will be seen as a typical pro-AA member dishonest dodge. For some reason, they can’t communicate in a forthright manner when they come here. Maybe you are different, we’ll see.

  • flannigan

    @AA Alfie
    Better check your motives for posting here. I am looking forward to an explanation. Thank you in advance.

  • SoberPJ

    It is interesting they can never state that they are here to defend AA and attempt to make a mockery of the Anti-AA movement and the people in it. Is that so hard?

  • Ben Franklin

    AA Alfie does a drive-by. Playing with the grownups on JREF? Alfie can’t handle the heat here. You actually have to some sense on this blog.One post he tells us to “brink it” and then his next post is his last one with some ad homs thrown in to boot! Typical stepper shit. No logic. No evidence. Always an insult. Yawn.

    Alfie, thank you! Drive Through!

  • AnnaZed

    Ah the old you people must be drunk rejoinder; it always says so much more about the speaker than the target in this type of context.

    just sayin’

    [For those who are completely sick of this tag, I should explain that I add it because I know that it drives JD crazy. Since he can’t respond right now I just do it to fuck with him, but I’ll stop soon.]

  • A.A. Alfie

    This is the real AA Alfie.

    I actually came back again because my ego wont let go of the fact that I have my very own thread in another forum. (wink)

    One or two of you have asked why I posted here; the reasons are fairly simple:
    Firstly, to meet my fan base and bask in my new found fame. I do enjoy being the subject of so much discussion and dare I say, adoration. 🙂
    Second to take a little piss out of a forum of CTers and groupthinky kooks that very bravely enjoyed trying to ridicule me behind my back. Also to show my face and ensure you are aware that as a group I have no fear of you (as someone previously suggested).
    Finally, to further extend the invitation to all of you to join the discussion at JREF. As a few of you have already determined, the requirements for evidence are a little more stringent there in grown up land than here where any bs will be allowed to pass unchallenged.
    Joey D has been shown to be an unmitigated liar – I do hope he is ok, he has taken rather a beating I’m afraid – he seems powerless to stop posting and lying – perhaps there is a 12 step fellowship for a lying addiction? Others seem to have stormed in only to find the heat a little tough to manage and promptly left.

    It seems the original challenge of the OP is indeed a tough task.

    But please, do join us there to further the discussions. I look forward to engaging you all. But be warned – on a skeptics thread be careful what you say and ensure you can support your claims with both well considered argument and supporting evidence.

    Good posting

    Cheers kiddies.

  • Swamibedpan

    Fuck off

  • A.A. Alfie – So when you diagnose someone as an Alcoholic, do you ask them if they would like a “Big Book” or a “12 & 12” with their order? Do you tell them to “keep coming back?” How many repeat customers do you have?

    Of course I realize you are going to use the excuse that AA is the only thing that works because you have seen it. What percentage of your customers which your livelihood relies on “keep coming back” that you send to AA versus other modalities? Nice little gig being a rehab councilor and sending people to AA for a living. I can understand the financial reasons for your choice, you wouldn’t get the repeat customers if you didn’t send them to AA.

  • flannigan

    @AA Alfie
    Your “explanation” of your motivation for posting on ST leaves a lot to be desired. Please state for all of us your actual agenda. You do realize that ST is a 12 step muckraking website? This is what ST is all about- exposing AA and 12 step “treatment” for the fraud that it is. This is not a game; addiction/alcoholism kills people. Do you not think that addicts deserve a better treatment modality than faith-healing?

  • MikeAugustine

    AA Alfie…our new Mr AA. All that’s missing is the use of the third person and the faux spirituality.

  • Ben Franklin

    AA Alfie doesn’t want to post here because he has his posse over there on the skeptics thread. By the way, just because you are posting on a skeptics web site does not mean you are a skeptic.
    Also Alfie if you come back, please explain your ad hominems. You state that the qualifications there are more stringent and imply we are of less intelligent. You also call us “kiddies”. I just mean to say your “only” an addictions counselor. You can get that 2 year degree at the community college. Not a lot a neuronal action there IMHO

  • flannigan

    @AA Alfie
    Don’t know about “chanting intonations to the devil” but 13th stepping and telling people to not take their medications really DOES happen in AA. You do know this, don’t you?
    (and making a joke about it doesn’t make it go away). I would think as an AA member who believes in the program, these issues would be a concern of yours. But I have been wrong before.

  • Stepper No More

    The tenth most disturbing thing I ever saw at an AA meeting was when the entire group ganged up on a man who had just lost lost his health insurance, and was worried that he would not be able to afford the anti-depressants he had been taking. The guy was dealing with unemployment, major depression, quitting drinking — big stuff, in other words– and was now facing the possibility that he would not be able to continue a treatment he had found helpful. You would not believe how nasty these serene sober alcoholics were. Well, actually, I’m sure you would. He got torn to shreds and used to wipe up the floor. Several people told him he was in denial if he thought he was depressed, as opposed to a “sick alcoholic,” and that taking anti-depressants would interfere with his sobriety.

    The biggest piler-on was that group’s resident guru, an elderly woman with a lot of Time, who regularly tore anyone not toeing the party line a new one. She used one of those artificial voice boxes, the kind you hold like a pipe — I believe they are sometimes offensively referred to as “cancer kazoos.” Even with the strange, science-fiction sounding voice it produced, you could still hear the contempt in her voice — it came through in the way she stressed certain sounds. I was a newcomer, and just about did mental backflips trying to tell myself this was not the pure evil that it looked like. “They mean well,” I told myself. “This might be a little misguided, but it’s coming from a place of love and concern.” Yuck.

    The true victim that night was, of course, the newly uninsured guy, but those of us who had to see it were also indirectly victimized, too. Especially those of us who were being assimilated into the AA culture. We learned that abuse=love, that old-timers got to weigh in on private medical decisions; that it was not preposterous for some random person who happened to have 20 years to claim to know better than your doctor; that you had no right to tell your own story — you had to let someone who’s known you for five minutes tell you what your life has really been about, even though you don’t recognize yourself in their version.

  • Ben Franklin

    SNM: I am assuming this guru with the cancer box smoked. Right? Yep. She is qualified to speak about addiction.

  • MikeAugustine

    We had a guru at my meeting who would talk about the defect of lust and then go prowling the video booths at a local porn store. He was also a counselor at the local salvation army. Seems that one of his clients liked the place too. Whoops.

  • Stepper No More

    That would be my guess, too. I also remember a lot of encouragement at meetings for not quitting smoking right away (“Wait until your spiritual program is stronger.”) Never mind how black your lungs are turning…as long as you can sound like your soul is getting all whitewashed and shiny. Also, the more passive-aggressive thirteenth steppers hate it when their targets quit smoking, because it removes their safest overture, offering or bumming a cigarette.

  • AA is not a religious program because it is not hooked up with
    ONE SPECIFIC RELIGION….
    it is definetly a GOD PROGRAM
    and those who dont think so are just stupid
    thinking that the reverse psychology is true
    “you don’t have to believe…its just a suggestion”

  • @guardian angel – you forgot to push the Spiritual Door Knob. Weren’t you the one that was just saying the belief in “GOD” is the only way to cure Alcoholism? I would cut and paste a few of your recent comments but they are too full of Spiritual profanity. They can be read here:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/06/23/the-looking-glass/

  • A.A. Alfie

    To Swamibedpan. Nicely formulated argument. Well considered, artuiculate and thought provoking. Well brought up. Pity you weren’t.

    JRH. If you are going to cast aspersions, please have some facts. I am 1. An AA member but I rarely “sell AA” which is what I think you are implying. 2. I am a counsellor/therapist in private industry as well as a rehab and a little of my own client base. Part of my client base is addicts and alcoholics, I have a number of other disciplines including domestic violence, anger management, family counselling, grief and loss to name a few. I identify as an agnostic. AA (or other 2 step groups) are mentioned in many counselling sessions with but only in the context of what support and services are available to the client. In other words, the options are placed on the table and the client basically choses which way they wish to go.

    But if you were to come to JREF and get some facts you would learn all this. Sadly you are aimply trying to make things up about me. So be it. But that is why I wont spend too much time here. It is a wankfest for adolescents where there are no rules regarding evidence so any slander or lie passes as truth.

    My standards are substantially higher.

    Come to JREF and play, one of your membership has doubled dared you, I do too. Are any of you adult enough, smart enough or brave enough? I doubt you have it in you.

    Come on!

  • A.A. Alfie – exactly what did I make up?

  • AnnaZed

    What is JREF?

  • JREF = James Randal Educational Foundation = http://forums.randi.org/

  • Lucy

    AA Alfie – Two questions – 1) where do you get most of your clients 2) were you therapist before or after you joined AA?

  • I do like the idea of using current research. One that doesn’t use a self help manual written in 1936 as its core foundation. The problem I see is that someone deeply entrenched in 12 Step Philosophy of the prophet Bill Wilson should not be in the practice of categorizing people by a DSM diagnosis. This is a study done in 2001 outlining the problem. It was not based on a 1936 book on self help:

    “This case study illustrates the potential for the application of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) diagnoses to exacerbate clients’ symptoms and inhibit the healing process in psychotherapy. Passages are excerpted from therapy sessions to demonstrate that the multiple diagnoses imposed on “Steve” coalesced into his core construct of himself as “crazy.” When his diagnoses became internalized as a construct, his world became viewed through a lens that believed itself to be defective. The use of diagnoses may also have negative consequences for the process of psychotherapy. Alternatives to traditional DSM diagnoses are reviewed. It is proposed that diagnoses should be tentative and rejected if they reify negative self-concepts and do not promote change in clients. ”

    http://jhp.sagepub.com/content/41/4/36.abstract

  • MikeAugustine

    Guys, I wouldn’t bother with AA Alfie. He’s eerily reminiscent of Mr AA – enjoys the argument because it gives him attention.

  • “The need for attention is paramount to the person with narcissistic personality disorder, and he or she will do anything to obtain that attention. Over the last two years, the fastest growing sector for calls to the UK National Workplace Bullying Advice Line has been from the charity / voluntary / not-for-profit sector. In most (although not all) cases, the identified serial bully is a female whose objective is to demonstrate to the world what a wonderful, kind, caring, compassionate person she is. Bold pronouncements, a prominent position, gushing empathy, sitting on many committees for good causes, etc all feature regularly.”

    http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/attent.htm#Attention

  • Lucy

    MikeAug (or may I call you Shemp?), I agree. its the same tune with the same notes and the same dodging of questions

    Shemp is, by the way, the underrated Stooge.

  • I see the battle is still going strong. A.A. Alfie has been relieved by another Stepper that insists that all of the research on addiction is flawed if they do not use studies based on AA facts that were but together by……………………………… AA? This is a new one I have never heard of before.

    “Here’s some light reading for you (6000 healthcare professionals trump your anonymous internet anecdotes)”

    He conveniently forgets to mention that the group that did this study is named “International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous”. I am sure there is no sampling bias there?

    http://www.idaa.org/

  • Ben Franklin

    AA Alfie is just a “counselor.” He earned his CDC, majoring in 12stepology at the local diploma mill. He has basically nothing to offer(except insults) and likely makes a tad little over minimum wage at the local rehab. He says he is agnostic but is in a program that requires a higher power. James Randi should be embarrassed by this thread being run over by steppers.
    I have seen this before. It reminds me of “The AA is a cult thread” on Dombeck’s blog. I really don’t have the energy to participate in this anymore. At the time I was pissed when Dombeck allowed Tony J, McGowdog,Mr AA and other steppers to kill that thread. Now I am happy he ended it. There is only so much stupid I can tolerate anymore.

  • MikeAugustine

    @lucy, shemp was my brother’s and my favorite by far. (:

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris, you asked – exactly what did I make up?
    Here’s the answer…
    This..
    “..gets paid to talk people into joining the flock of the prophet Bill Wilson……”

    this strawman..
    “when you diagnose someone as an Alcoholic, do you ask them if they would like a “Big Book” or a “12 & 12″ with their order? Do you tell them to “keep coming back?”

    this,,
    “use the excuse that AA is the only thing that works because you have seen it.”

    this strawman and inaccrate assumption..
    “What percentage of your customers which your livelihood relies on “keep coming back” that you send to AA versus other modalities? ”

    this assumption..
    “Nice little gig being a rehab councilor and sending people to AA for a living.”

    And this..
    “I can understand the financial reasons for your choice, you wouldn’t get the repeat customers if you didn’t send them to AA.”

    And some other moron also assumes much without a clue.. this ..
    “AA Alfie is just a “counselor.” He earned his CDC, majoring in 12stepology at the local diploma mill. He has basically nothing to offer(except insults) and likely makes a tad little over minimum wage at the local rehab. He says he is agnostic but is in a program that requires a higher power.”

    So, pretty much all of your post was made up, filled with straw or made amazingly inaccurate inferences or assumptions.

    The second bloke (that made me laugh a lot), seriously has no clue.

    But what qualifies any of you to comment on this issue?

    Anyway, I notice none of you are prepared to debate me in an adult manner.
    I may hit and run occasionally here, but for the most part I prefer to mix at the grownups table – a brief foray to the kids’ one is a bit of fun but it really doesn’t stimulate me much.

  • sally

    Aren’t professionals supposed to be forever non professional?

  • Lucy

    And I see you are unprepared to answer the directly posed questions I gave you.

  • MikeAugustine

    Guys, aa alfie is a cross between mr aa passive aggressive and jd ad hom. Don’t waste your time. He gets off on the attention. I think that he’s probably a lonely person. This stuff constitutes his social inaction. Just thinkin’ out loud (-;

  • MikeAugustine

    Meant to say ‘interaction’, but ‘inaction’ fits too….

  • A.A. Alfie

    No offense sally, I think you mean that AA is supposed to be non-professional.

    All:
    Someone suggested that I was an “AA counsellor”. Where I come from (Australia) there is no such thing. As an aside, this was another of those appalling inaccurate assumptions made. The mind boggles at what people can get away with here that is allowed to pass unchallenged. Very groupthinky folks.

    Are there actually “AA counsellors” in the US and/or elsewhere? Frankly I doubt it. There seems to be an awful lot of confusion in this forum about what actually occurs. And what actually is allowed to pass as fact is schoolyard facebooky standards.

    That said, I will concede straight up that I have never been to an AA meeting in the USA, but I have been to thousands both here and abroad in hundreds of different venues over the past 15 years or so. My comments around AA are always limited to my personal experiences, my understanding of AA and its traditions, steps etc. However, 12 contiguous years of sobriety (alcoholic and addict), my professional training and qualifications, and 20 plus professional years of people management, facilitation, counselling and coaching (sport, finance and business) give me some authority to speak on the subject of AA and addiction I believe.

    So bring it on in JREF where your claims will be tested – unlike here, there are generally fairly high evidenciary requirements demanded regardless of assertions made.

    The double dare still stands I believe.

    Are you up to it?
    I might also say that many of your number are very courageous (not) in bringing half truths and out of context quotes from posters at JREF to here. This is incredibly dishonest, and I must say that this forum is a big disappointment for a group of people who wish to be seen as critical thinkers. Clearly there is something lacking. Joey Doughnuts et al, are classic examples of ‘stoopid’ repetition without a modicum of critical thinking, clinical evidence or intellectual support.

    Bring it on.

    Cheers

  • MA

    I think it’s unfair to compare Alfie to JD or Tony J, because they set the bar so high. It’s like telling the guy who replaced Mickey Mantle, “Do what he did.” I think we should give Alfie time to come in and establish his own style, and let him be the best Alfie he can be, without giving him unreasonable expectations.

  • Ben Franklin

    Alfie, you said you were a counselor on the JREF thread and then you say this:

    “However, 12 contiguous years of sobriety (alcoholic and addict), my professional training and qualifications, and 20 plus professional years of people management, facilitation, counselling and coaching (sport, finance and business) give me some authority to speak on the subject of AA and addiction I believe.”

    Are you a counselor or not? Shit,make up your mind or I’ll accuse you of being a liar like you do on the JREF thread. That or I’ll blurt out “strawman” and act like I’m real smart. The whole program of AA is a strawman. A big fat overall weighing, stupid strawman with a smirk on its face. Hows that for an argument. I’m just not into bringing it any more to people that just won’t get it anyway. So have fun with your buds probonoshill and albell while you pretend to be a critical thinker on your strawmany, facebooky really douchey thread.

    Uh, contiguous sounds smart, but continuous is actually a better word to use in this context.

  • MikeAugustine

    Careful, @ben. He’s drawing you in. He does not claim to be an addiction counselor. His only claim is life experience coupled with managing people in his area of training. That could be anything.

    He’s a LOT like Mr AA in the way he uses vagueness in order to shape the ongoing conversation. Kind of easy to see the whole charade if you step back for a minute.

  • Ahhh….. Is see Alfie is up to the old “home group” advantage psychologically attempting to splinter the opposition. This is a technique that could have come from two places and heavily practiced by the followers of the false prophet Bill Wilson. Very tricky and devious.

    It could have come from sports where it is known that there is a “home field advantage” because they are more familiar with the surroundings and have a ready made set of fans (in this case other followers of the prophet Bill Wilson) cheering for them because of the geographical (in this case virtual IP space.) location. This is well known and practiced by a devious Steppers when they ask you to come to a meeting at their “Home Group” that is completely rife with people who view you as a “prospect” to chant Bill Wilson with them. They claim you should “come see for your self” what it is all about and usually throw the psychological ploy of alluding to the fact that this group is somehow superior (i.e. “mix at the grownups table – a brief foray to the kids’” from Alfie above). A Stepper gains this tendency of a Grandiose delusion that may be caused by a mental illness or bipolar disorder equally split between schizophrenia or a substance abuse disorder. This mental deficiency is exasperated by constant repetition of themes such as “WHY WE WERE CHOSEN,” a classic speech of delusions of grandeur given by Judge John T. on the 4th anniversary of Chicago’s first AA club in 1943 based on a persons pride, not fact.

    The sports team “home field advantage” is one of the techniques used by a delusional Stepper to gain an advantage, the other one is deeply rooted in “police interrogation methods”, primarily the “Reid Technique”, which is known to promote false confessions in suspects. The first step in practicing this technique is to place the person being interrogated (Called a “prospect” by the followers of Bill Wilson) in non familiar surroundings controlled by the interrogator. They then lead the suspect (i.e. “prospect”) into a sometimes false confession (i.e. using Step 4, “Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves” to eventually lead to Step 5,”Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs”). The interrogator (i.e Stepper) then gets the suspect (i.e. “prospect” for conversion) to write these deeds down and uses it against them to force compliance.

    In conclusion it is obvious that a Stepper who adamantly defends the teachings of the false prophet Bill Wilson, is most likely suffering from a delusion of being very powerful because they have been exposed to the supernatural, science-fictional, or religious theme of AA marketed by a Corporation in New York. Be very careful of the psychological profile of these people, they are even more dangerous if they act as a professional in the mental health field because they always skew the reported facts to mean you should be chanting Bill Wilson in all your affairs as a means of “help” for your problem. They will also try to get as much information as they can and are told to “When you discover a prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous, find out all you can about him” on page 90 of the “Big Book” (i.e. Bible in the minds of a Stepper). Very dangerous variant of master manipulator.

  • The next step in this debate with a follower and chanter of the false prophet Bill Wilson usually follows this path:

    1. Call the delusion Sponsor and discuss how to get the “prospect” to start chanting the prophet Bill Wilson. The Sponsor is considered to be at a higher level of “Spirituality” and will suggest that since the “prospect” will not go to your “Home Group” so you can gain a “home field advantage” in forcing them to chant Bill Wilson suggest a “neutral territory.”
    2. The “neutral territory” suggested by the fully indoctrinated Stepper is usually a known “hang out” for other Bill Wilson chanters and they will pretend like they did not do this intentionally. The purpose of this is to have a “chance meeting” with other chanters of Bill Wilson to show how Spiritual and happy they are. This is a tactic of “home field advantage” intended to cloak the actual intention.

    When you are approached by a Stepper this is the path that they will follow. First they will suggest that you go to their “Home Group” to see how happy and Spiritual they are chanting Bill Wilson and try to indoctrinate you. If you decline this offer, the next step is to get them to go to a “coffee shop” that they know is heavily skewed with indoctrinated Steppers. You can usually tell a fully indoctrinated Stepper because they will normally use the term “we” (referring to other Bill Wilson chanters) when referring to AA (the corporation that they will continually insist does not exist, except when quoting scripture, then it is the supreme authority that does exist).

    At this point the prophet Bill Wilson suggests that you let the “prospect” you have chosen “hurt” some more and do not contact them. Instead you should offer your services in a deceptive manner to the spouse, friends and family of the prospect and leave a “Big Book” or literature with them to read so they can help you in your quest to make the “prospect” chant Bill Wilson. You then let another fully indoctrinated Stepper have a shot at it to wear them down. Once the “prospect” been worn down, the Stepper will then again show up in your life as the only savior you have due to the trouble that has been caused in your life because you refuse to chant Bill Wilson that they have helped cause.

    This experiment with a Stepper is dangerous, but can be used to warn other “prospects” of the problems with allowing a chanter of Bill Wilson access to your spouse, family, friends, clergy and members of law enforcement. Do not give them this access or they will force you down the path of jails, institutions and death in an attempt to make you chant a book written in 1936. Be very careful.

  • Quagmire

    Alfie, seems to be quite the adversary. I’ll have to look into him a bit more. Alfie, I don’t mind substantiating any claims or statements I make. I would rather think this was protocol here on this thread. Often I have seen here (in my readings of the past week or so) that most have made comments and backed them up with links to the source.
    I believe you are confusing good ole joshing (wit) with factual statements being taken out of context or better yet taking liberties with facts. All in all it is a good fight here don’t run away “mate”, all in fun.
    I will check out your site there, seems a bit stuffy but I’m up to it.

  • causeandeffect

    Yes, JR, he’s trying to get the homegroup advantage. There aren’t any steppers here to back him up. That’s why he’ll only hit and run here. He’s hoping we will all forget about him, and of course, we will.

    I’ve had a look at that thread. It’s quite a lot to wade through and don’t have time to read it all. I have some links I feel would help Joey a great deal, but I’m still trying to catch up since this has been going on for a year. I can’t find the most important link. I’ll have to email someone to get it. Even without the links, poor alfie doesn’t comprehend he’s and his friends are getting battered over there and it would be so much worse if any of us, who have a multitude of links to back up our statements, went over there. He can’t back anything he says up. To paraphrase the most authoritative thing he’s said so far is “AA isn’t religious because all the AA members say it’s not.” And we all know how misguided that is.

  • Quagmire

    JR Harris,
    You do have a way of explaining AA..lol. I like it. 😉

  • Jonny Quest

    @JR Harris – looking forward to that “Stepper Avoidance Manual” – they are going to go apeshit.

  • Ahhh… I see the JREF thread is now getting action from other posters at that site. Very well done. I was worried about the fact that the entire thread was being monopolized by pro and anti AA posters. This is an unfair advantage to the aggregate population of posters at that site. Now it is entering a “free market” zone where the combined intelligence of everyone will be dictated by “market forces.” Let’s hope it keeps up to raise the awareness that there is something wrong with following the 12 Steps of the prophet Bill Wilson to all of the members of JREF. That may then become a true “neutral territory” for this to be discussed. Both pro and anti AA posters are being questioned on their research and motives for posting.

    As for Alfie, he is most likely talking to his Sponsor or even the Grand Sponsor to find a way to make people chant the words of the prophet Bill Wilson. You can expect much research quoted from corporate AA that he claimed at first does not have any governing authority as a reliable resource that now miraculously does have governing authority and are “absolute” following the teaching of the Oxford Group.

  • Lucy

    MA, Have I told you how much I appreciate your smart assy-ness? It really does give me hope for you kids of the younger generation.

  • MA

    Thank you, Lucy.

    I was actually going to send you an email telling you how I like your comments. Maybe we should start a mutual admiration society.

  • MA

    I just gave up on that thread over there. I thought I could last a week, but they’re just too fucking crazy. I can’t handle that much delusion. That’s just one big, giant bundle of lunacy over there.

  • Well it would appear that AA Alfie has digressed into a state of denial and is now trying hard to rebuild his credibility by the “grownup” actions of snide innuendo:

    http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?s=e7cd53c8833373865b6ee8dec45c0bf1&p=7312522&postcount=4289

    Of course this is after he made amends and admitted he was wrong:

    ttp://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?s=e7cd53c8833373865b6ee8dec45c0bf1&p=7312410&postcount=4287

    http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?s=e7cd53c8833373865b6ee8dec45c0bf1&p=7312375&postcount=4285

    I sure am glad that the “grownup table” is over there like Alfie claims it is. I think I’ll just sit right here and observe sociopath and narcissism tendencies going on over there. I wouldn’t want to bother the “grownups” playing. Maybe one of these days I can chant Bill Wilson and be smart enough to play over there. It really is easy, its written so a 5th grader can read and understand it. I can understand why a “grownup” like Alfie would be afraid to play with us.

  • MikeAugustine

    @ma, I learned on the mentalhealth forum that there’s no use in arguing with such folks. 2 + 2 = 3 in the 4th dimension. We’ll never understand.

  • causeandeffect

    I do feel sorry for Joey over there. He has all the right info, but he’s lacking the links. What links he does have, they won’t even look at. I don’t know how to link to specific references from over there, but I have collected some of Alfie’s mind blowingly juvenile arguments. Such as:

    “I will if you will.
    Assuming that if I am one, you must be too.
    It takes one to know one, as they say.”

    “Ooh goody! (clap clap)”

    “Moreover, the linky you gave…”

    Apparently he forgets to put on his big boy pants when he’s at his computer. He all but says “I’m rubber and your glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.”

    He also regularly engages in ad homs:

    “You are no longer simply dishonest but edging towards being an unmitigated liar.”

    Then engages in outright dishonesty and contradicts himself saying:

    Don’t get me wrong, I think the deliberate predators that are about are awful. Moreover, I take an active role in educating the women I meet that are new to AA as well as in my work about the occasional danger that can pop up (er… so to speak) when they are early in and confused.

    There are also predatory women and men who chase money or other symbols – being slightly famous can also be a drawback. These too are dangerous in any community setting and AA often warns against these perils in circulars etc.

    In a 13th step situation: Did AA support or facilitate this behavior or were there two individuals (adults by the way) that acted of their own volition. And was it a situation where both are responsible for their actions

    What circulars? (I tried to italicize but it doesn’t seem to be working)

    And he implies he’s an addictions counselor over there, which is something he wouldn’t openly admit to here (sport, finance and business)

    Alfie has been unable to back up any of his arguments. His only tactic is attack. Joey needs help. He knows what he’s talking about but he needs links. But I’ll admit, it’s giving me too much of a headache reading his and his friends’ fatuous arguments born of ignorAAnce.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Cause and effect says

    “And he implies he’s an addictions counselor over there, which is something he wouldn’t openly admit to here (sport, finance and business)”

    Part of my job is as an addictions counsellor, as you call it (among other disciplines), I stated this earlier. Perhaps you are into redundant repitition, I am not.

    You also say:

    “Alfie has been unable to back up any of his arguments.”

    What arguments?
    Come and play, see what arguments I do have.

    In fact, I am in the process of unwrapping and Joey’s arguments at the moment and in doing so proving him the liar and fool he is, not making my own.

    You say
    “Joey needs help.”

    This bit you got right.

    Come and play. Is the double dare still on, as per the OP?

  • Alfie is at the psychological point where he thrives on the attention he is getting and is suffering from “Narcissistic personality disorder” and is now showing the symptoms of proving personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity, hence his comments.

    His entire life revolves around that thread and it has done so since his first post on July 19, 2010. His only thoughts during his free time is about how to win the conversation on that thread. He thrives on gaining new posters and is a master of circular thinking. At one point AA is described as not being governed by any one or thing, then he will prove it by saying the only thing that matters is what AA says.

    He is using the thread to hone his skills in talking people into chanting the words of Bill Wilson because his livelihood depends on it. Unfortunately by engaging him we are helping him to hone his skills which he will use on people not as hardened us. That is why he does not engage us and his narcissism shows when he tells us to go to the “grownups table.” The best thing to do is leave him alone and not help him to become a Super Stepper where he can inflict massive damage on people that actually need help.

    Because he is using narcissism as a drug, if he looses all of the people on the thread he will go into withdrawal and start to seek other “prospects” on the web and most likely end up here. He thrives on new posters to practice his circular thinking tactics. I would suggest not giving it to him, but be forewarned that it will make him get extremely agitated.

  • A.A. Alfie

    he he.
    Your diagnosis powers are sadly lacking.

    I get the impression your musings are somewhat inverted reflections.

    It’s rather sad actually, you have made assumptions, accustations and ridiculed. And guess what? You have not got close even once.

    Why are you so angry? Did your parents beat you? Lacking friends? Penis envy or feelings of inadequacy? Lost and alone? Abandonment syndrome? Depressions? Anger issues? Do you beat your partner? Seriously, what is it? Low self-esteem (that much is obvious btw)? Poor self-image? Eating disorder? Am I getting close? Obesity? Perhaps you drink and drug? Or is it a codependancy issue stemming from your parents’ addictions? Maybe it’s just that you are a tosser?

    I must admit, I am having rather a lot of fun here – I didn’t think I would.

    I think in you I have found someone with a skin as equally thick as mine. Neither care about what others think of us. Mine is because of a healthy self-esteem (as opposed to ego, I assume you know the difference), yours because you are oblivious – that narcissism you seem so familair with.

    Happy days.

    My own thread! I still can’t get over it.
    How wonderful!

  • I see you are attempting to illicit more information from your “prospect” to hone your skills on how to manipulate this information once it is found. You also used the “angry” keyword that has been devised by the followers of the prophet Bill Wilson to provoke an “angry” response. I noticed you quote Albert Einstien at the bottom of your posts “science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” Albert Einstein.” That quote came from “Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium”, 1941″. Can you explain the significance of it?

    Original text: http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm

  • SoberPJ

    Hi Alfie… There was a fellow from Australia on a thread a while ago that believed the Big Book merely contains suggestions and that it didn’t really matter what Bill and Bob wrote in the 30’s. Do you feel the same way?

  • Do any of these symptoms seem familiar to anyone?

    DSM-IV-TR 301.81

    The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:

    A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

    1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
    2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
    3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
    4. Requires excessive admiration
    5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
    6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
    7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
    8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
    9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

    It is also a requirement of DSM-IV that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.

    And yes that did come from wikipedia. I see no need to provide links to the underlying source material at this time. In legal terms this is the process of “discovery” and does not need the source material yet. The idea is to determine the baseline for the discussion first and then get into the details so the discussion does not get sidelined. The followers of the prophet Bill Wilson will always attempt to sideline the discussion in the preliminary “discovery” of information. On a preliminary self report Mental Health Assessment you are only allowed to either answer a “yes”, “no”, or have a “scale” to answer. This is done for a reason and they contain a “truthfulness scale” to see if they are answered correctly.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris. Bt can you explain what it means? That is far more relevant. Alsdo, do you know what the other two mean? What they relate to?

    I’m going with obesity and a small penis at this point in time.

    Isn’t liberating to be able to freely say whatever one likes? I really am starting to like it here.

    To sober PJ.

    A complicated couple of questions that I would prefer to answer in longer form. My take on them is:

    – the 12 steps are a “suggested” process. They are also very flexible in their practical application thus the requirement of a supernaural higher power is not reuired.
    – For mine, the big book is a largely historical document. It shows where things started, the mistakes, stories, prevalent ideas at the time through the eyes of a few, etc. The “bad” things that Bill did prove human weakness, lack of judgement etc and it is always a stupid idea to compare history through the eyes of today’s setting as some would do (eg. people quoting ancient bible text as relevant today is ridiculous). There was also a lot of good.
    But I do agree, what they wrote some 70 years ago are interesting; sometime relevant, sometimes not. But I would prefer to speak to the person in front of me now; the person with more sobriety than both Bill and Bob, the one that has lived and continues to live a sober and decent life. That is the sobriety I want, they are the ones that are relevant to me.

    I hope that makes sense to you.

    Cheers.

  • I would also like to know the significance of another quote that Alfie displays at the bottom of all of his posts:

    “The wolfhound is right and the cannibal is wrong”. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote “The Gulag Archipelago” a was a Russian who wrote about the Chief Administration of Corrective Labour Camps during World War II.

    The use of a Wolf is interesting in this and I wonder why it was picked as a quote.

    “In the European mind, wolves long stood as a symbol of baneful, uncontrollable nature. As far back as the time of Aesop in 500 BCE (Before the Christian Era), wolves in literature are portrayed as wicked villains and long-fanged, terrible beasts. Before the Middle Ages, wolves were nearly always the greedy thief, criminal trickster, or cruel remorseless murderer. The wolf does not fare well in the European imagination.”

    http://www.class.uidaho.edu/kpgeorge/issues/wolves_history/history_symbol.htm

  • A.A. Alfie

    Whoopie, you can read from a DSM IV. Put away daddy’s things before he finds out you are playing with them.
    giggle

    Definitely a micropenis problem.

    Gee this is fun.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Is that what Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn meant, Doubtful. Try again braniac.

  • A.A. Alfie

    eta

    BTW the quote is WOLFHOUND not wolf.

    Moron.

  • I am seeing a pattern here. The last quote that Alfie displays on all of his posts is:

    “Show me a young Conservative and I’ll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I’ll show you someone with no brains.” Francois Guisot

    He misspelled the last name and it should be François Guizot who was a French historian, orator, and statesman from 1787 to 1874. He was considered a conservative liberal that seemed to like to play both sides of an argument.

    Why would someone use these quotes to identify themselves with? What is the underlying purpose?

  • Sue

    I see it escalating; the childish behavior, the name calling. So familiar.

  • Strange. At the “grownup table” that Alfie claims he belongs to he does not use this kind of language and does not keep going on about attempting to to prove something about sexual inadequacy. He prefers to do this at the “kiddies” table instead. I wounder what the significance of that is?

    He has definitely qualified himself for Item #3 of DSM-IV-TR 301.81 – Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions.

  • I believe that Alfie has also qualified himself for Item #5 of DSM-IV-TR 301.81 – Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.

  • A.A. Alfie

    he he.

    So about that wolfhound v wolf thing.
    No retraction, no explanation…….

    Thought not.

  • SoberPJ

    Thanks Alfie .. so, then you don’t recommend or counsel people on maintaining strict adherence to the program outlined in the Big Book ? Just askin because it is difficult to have an AA discussion if “pure AA” is not an issue.

  • Alfie now has a conundrum on his hands. He can not sideline the conversation. This is an extremely uncomfortable point for him and he is starting to go through a type of psychological withdrawal and needs attention to continue his euphoria caused by self grandiosity. He is desperately searching for a way to continue the search for the needed reaction and a way to sideline the conversation.

    I believe this would qualify Alfie for Item #6 of of DSM-IV-TR 301.81 – Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

  • I do see that Alfie has corrected his mistake of misspelling Francois Guisot and changed it to the correct spelling of Francois Guizot. Details like this are extremely important in “brand marketing”, but I am sill wondering the significance of the 3 quotes that be is using to market himself. What is the purpose of these quotes? What does it show about his values and upbringing?

    “The wolfhound is right and the cannibal is wrong”. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
    “science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” Albert Einstein
    “Show me a young Conservative and I’ll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I’ll show you someone with no brains.” Francois Guizot

  • DeConstructor

    Alfies real problem is trained ‘black and white’ thinking of the AA faith in their promotion, marketing, and prosylization of the faulty ‘disease’ model of alcoholism.

    In the real world there are always mitigating shades of grey.

  • A.A. Alfie

    “Why would someone use these quotes to identify themselves with? What is the underlying purpose?”

    You really aren’t too bright are you. There is no purposes except to perhaps point out the world isn’t black or white. It is very often a problem for those who see things in this all or nothing fashion. Your DSM IV will help diagnose that issue for you as well. Here’s a clue: check under some of the personality disorders.
    While I’m not certain, speaking to a person through others is often associated with a lack of empathy and is described under antisocial personality disorder.

    This is fun isn’t it? Diagnosis on the internet.

    I’m still sticking with obesity and a micropenis.

    But this is almost certainly coupled with antisocial personality disorder range and/or among schizophrenia spectrum disorders.

    And I could guarantee that I am closer to being correct than you matey.

    Smiles.

    Now about that wolfhound……

  • A.A. Alfie

    “In the real world there are always mitigating shades of grey.”

    Ta da.

    And there is the answer. Straight from deconstructor – with thanks.

    btw, thanks for the correction on the spelling.

  • I am glad Alfie came back. I was beginning to worry that he would dwell on the lack of euphoria caused by self grandiosity and may be starting to go through withdrawal and take it out on a client. He is still obsessed with sexual themes in his posts at the site he has proclaimed as the “kiddie table” which is extremely disturbing.

    We are still in the “discovery” phase but I believe he has also qualified to further exploration for Item #7of DSM-IV-TR 301.81 – Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.

    Once all of these tendencies are identified, then all of then can be explored more fully.

  • DeConstructor

    By the way Alfie-

    I keep searching for the words ‘alcoholism’ or ‘alcoholics anonymous’ in my DSM-IV manual.

    I cannot find it, could you please tell me what page it is on from your copy.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Lack of euphoria?
    I’m ecstatic!
    I have my own fan club,
    My very own diagnostician.
    and analyst (although I am confused as to their actual qualifications)
    My very own thread.
    My own third party interpreter services.
    The love and adoration of many – as evidenced by the respondents here.
    My own spell checker (I’m not always perfect nor a perfect typist)
    My own personal muse.
    There is so much more.

    I could not be more happy if I tried. And I have you guys to thank for it.

    btw, there is good help for PDs and Schizophrenia etc these days you know. It’s sad when people suffer in silence.

  • A.A. Alfie

    DC (I hope you don’t mind me calling you DC)

    I don’t have my copy at home, check under things like: Alcoholism and/or screening, chemical dependancy or substance abuse. That should get you started.

  • Because of all of the Alfies posts about “micropenis” I am concerned about comorbidity and this may or may not be a problem but needs further investigation. Off hand knowing that he is a member of AA this may be a residual problem DSM-IV-TR 305.00 Abuse
    or 303.90 Dependence with DSM-IV-TR 291.8 -Induced sexual dysfunction.

  • @JR Harris: Or, in layman’s terms, Alfie’s A.A. is so hardcore that pages 68 and 69 of his big book are stuck together.

  • Thank you for reminding me that I should talk at the same grade and maturity level as Alfie. This is important to illicit honest responses.

  • DeConstructor

    Uhmm Alfie-

    Look for the word ‘alcoholism’ under the word ‘alcoholism’?

    Do they actually train circular reasoning in your AA faith services?

  • Not at all, JR. Keep blinding him with science, while he blinds himself on his original text. Yeah, I know, I’m mixing a masturbatory myth with the comments of an A.A. propagandist. Oh, wait…

  • At this point Alfie does not know what to do. He is used to using slogans to cause reactions and arguments that he knows how to answer. He has no pre-programmed responses and it is causing severe mental distress that he does not know how to handle. He is used to the usual “Spirituality vs Religion” or “Disease Concept” arguments and has to actually think about how to respond. Logically the next attempt will be to change the subject back to the usual arguments which he has mastered the technique of circular thinking on. He may be feeling utter confusion at this point.

  • DeConstructor

    Right now Alfie is shaking and on the phone with his sponsor.

  • I feel bad about the utter confusion Alfie may be feeling.

    On second thought, as his sponsor is likely telling him at the moment (h/t DeConstructor), it’s probably just his “disease” talking. Doing push-ups in the parking lot of the packie, waiting on a moment’s notice for that one split second of spiritual doubt. Happy, joyous, and free.

  • The reason it is hard to deprogram a follower of the prophet Bill Wilson is because they are taught to go to and rely on a person they deem as their superior in the flock. These are the people who have taught them circular thinking and they are taught to immediately go to them to determine the correct slogan to use in rebuttal. This is the support system they have built to protect the euphoria they get from their narcissistic behavior. This is a very dangerous point in deprogramming and can cause extremely psychotic reactions if they do not find a slogan to prove their superiority.

  • DeConstructor

    I am not sure whether he is actually searching his DSM-IV for the word “alcoholism’ -if so he will be gone all night-

    or he may just be doing the ‘ ba ba baba ba ba’ like Goldie Hawn in the movie Overboard.

  • Well, you will notice that his posts have been becoming shorter and shorter both here and on JREF in the last few hours. This is most likely do to the fact the discussion has been focused and it was not allowed to be switched to another subject that he has a slogan or quote memorized for. He is starting to question himself and his motives and people aren’t playing the word definition game with him. This is completely new to his standard thought processes.

    The next step to do is to get him to admit he may have a problem with the obsession he has with the writings of the prophet Bill Wilson. This will cause extreme mental distress, but if he does not want to admit this he will never fix this obsession.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Sorry folks I was off with the famly at sport. ou probably don’t believe it but I do have a life, one that goes beyond internet abuse and addiction.

    Any chance we can talk directly or should we go third party again?

    “DeConstructor says
    “Look for the word ‘alcoholism’ under the word ‘alcoholism’?”

    Is it not in there? Did you even bother looking? I assume it was supposed to be a trick questionm from you, but seriously, is it not in there.

    JRH

    Any chance you could engage, or does your disfunction preclude ine on one discussion.

    I am interested to hear about what you think Solzhenitsyn meant with the wolfhound?

  • I would not say that this is over at this point. Currently he will be going to the support group he has built in search of the correct slogan to use. He will probably come back with much more ammunition and attempt a “shotgun” attack with multiple points and demand answers which will start circular thinking and arguments again. If someone answers one of the points he will switch the conversation to another point and never acknowledge the point answered. To prevent this the idea is to keep things focused and not allow it to be clouded with multiple points that will start circular thinking again. When answering only work on one point and keep it focused. When insulted, do not respond to the insult. It is only a tactic used to change the subject.

  • DeConstructor

    Alfie-
    You started by referencing the DSM-IV manual.
    You tell me.
    I am asking you a direct question in response to your post and I would like a direct answer.

  • The current DSM-IV-TR does not contain the word “Alcoholism” in it at all. It does have Alcohol-related disorders. The term “Alcoholism” is generally considered to be associated with DSM-IV-TR 303.90 Dependence and further defined with multiple occurrences of DSM-IV-TR 291.X (X being either 1, 2, 3, 5, 8 or 9).

  • Ooops… forgot 291.0 Intoxication delirium

  • This is interesting. A councilor would have to know these codes in order to be paid by insurance. If they do not know the codes, insurance won’t pay for their services. These are standard universally used codes.

  • DeConstructor

    Must be one of those unpaid counselors, or as I call them, an AA street evangelist.

  • It would appear that the “kiddie table” may know a little more than assumed because they do not make grandiose statements of their qualifications. I believe this is called being humble, something that a follower of the prophet Bill Wilson is supposed to practice in all of their affairs. I believe we do it because of what is generally referred to as not “bragging.”

  • A.A. Alfie

    A counciler (sic) in the USA would or might know the USA codes. Do you know the Australian codes? To be honest, I don’t. Why? I have people that do much of the admin for me.

    This is still the kiddies table. Grown ups talk to each other, not behind the backs of others.

    Over and out until I am asked a direct question or two. To those I will happily respond.

    🙂

    • MA

      Over and out until I am asked a direct question or two. To those I will happily respond.

      OK, Alfie. I’ll bite.

      How long have you been this delusional?

  • MikeAugustine

    @alfie, I peaked in my aa beliefs at around 12 years. By year 16 I stopped regularly attending meetings and now I can’t even sit through one. My experience is that only the lonely and those who profit from the program stick around well into the second decade and beyond. I peg you as a little of the former and a lot of the latter. No?

  • A.A. Alfie

    Mike.
    I am neither lonely nor do I profit (I assume you mean financially) from AA.
    I do profit by simply remaining sober which helps give me a strong social life, a great job, a beautiful wife and family, plenty of fiends, peace of mind, sound sleep, coping skills, goals and dreams, achievements – you know? the kind of things I didn’t always have when drinking. My life is pretty fantastic actually and I still (for the most part anyway) enjoy AA.

    MA
    Delusional about what?

    As I said, I am happy to engage in honest (or close to) discussion and questions if you wish, beyond that. Meh.

  • MikeAugustine

    Fair enough, alfie. I too enjoy the things you mentioned. And I find that I have more time for them now that I don’t attend meetings anymore.

  • A.A. Alfie

    And good luck to you. I seincerely hope it works. I do one or two meetings a week these days but mix with many friends both in and out of AA.

    I guess we are lucky here in Australia where the rabid nature of religion and anti-religion are just not an issue. I am agnostic, many of my friends are believers in a HP, many are atheists. No-one actually gives a stuff as long as they are sober and don’t impinge on the rights of others.

    Us Aussies are very laid back, hence my indifference to the attempted barbs here.

    There really are some tossers in this forum though, don’t you think?

    Cheers (or chhers).

  • MA

    Who or what is your higher power, Alfie?

  • Welcome to the clinical practice guidelines portal

    Welcome to Australia’s Clinical Practice Guidelines Portal. It has been developed to help Australian clinicians and policy-makers access high quality, evidence-based clinical practice guidelines via a single entry point.

    This Portal is an initiative of the National Institute of Clinical Studies, an institute of the Australian Government’s National Health and Medical Research Council as part of our mandate to build a healthier Australia.

    Clinical practice guidelines are ‘systematically developed statements to assist practitioner and patient decisions about appropriate health care for specific circumstances’ (Field and Lohr, 1992).

    http://www.clinicalguidelines.gov.au/

  • The National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) is Australia’s peak body for supporting health and medical research; for developing health advice for the Australian community, health professionals and governments; and for providing advice on ethical behaviour in health care and in the conduct of health and medical research.

    http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/

  • I have been over at the Stinkin Thinkin forum. They are quite the animals.

    They think it perfectly reasonable to make up anything they like and it is allowed to pass unchallenged. They can also use any foul language they like and this too is perfectly acceptable. I am no prude, but sheesh!

    There is one guy there who reckons it is hilarious to psychoanalyse me from across the globe, based purely on his imagination. I have had a crack or two back but he refuses to engage me in a discussion. It’s really funny to watch as this moron speaks to his minions about other people all the while pretending they aren’t even there. When one makes a direct comment to him or ask a question, he continues to do the same ignoring others and speaking to his cronies.
    It would be really funny if it wasn’t so tragic and pointless. I actually feel rather sorry for him, I don’t think he has any real friends.

    Maybe he is a bit of a cult leader himself.

    I have asked him to come here to join the discussion, he obviously refuses (how brave) and is quite happy to slander the JREF community as a whole. Now, whilst I don’t like everyone here and there are one or two that press my buttons (we all have them, and I know I’m that to some ), I will always defend the JREF community as critical thinkers with far higher ethical and evidentiary standards allowing for adult discussions (er… generally speaking) and did so – of course.

    Anyway, it is very schoolkid facebook like, very immature and frankly rather pointless. I have lost any sense of pride I once had for having my very own thread there. Ah well.

    I would hope that any JREF member that holds this lot up as a standard of intelligence and rational thinking would be truly ashamed of their appallingly low standards.

    Just thought I’d report in on it.

    They truly are a pack of dolts

    Posted Today, 02:45 AM —- and not edited —- Yet

    http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?s=b65ec4df5846dacde4a191147ee373a2&p=7313347&postcount=4249

  • Warnings from Site Moderator:

    Thread closed for cleanout. Moderation actions will follow. Do not attempt to restart this discussion elsewhere.
    Posted By:jhunter1163
    http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?s=b65ec4df5846dacde4a191147ee373a2&p=7313299&postcount=4247

    Thread reopened. For the last time, address the argument (not the arguer) and be civil and polite. Further bickering and incivility will lead to the thread being placed on moderated status, or possibly being closed outright.
    Posted By:jhunter1163
    http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?s=b65ec4df5846dacde4a191147ee373a2&p=7313330&postcount=4248

  • At this time frustration is extremely high and the search for the proper slogan to use as a rebuttal is fruitless. The Internet was not based on a 1936 book written at a 5th grade level, so it will not have even thought of an adequate response to a “prospect” for conversion to chanting the words of the prophet Bill Wilson.

    The usual response of a DSM-IV-TR 301.81 – narcissistic personality disorder at this point is to reply with profanity and personality smears. The communities of both websites have indicated that profanity and personality smears are not deemed acceptable and the narcissist has no outlet for his frustration. The narcissist has attempted to cover up his profanity and personality smears by warning people of one site not to go to the site he has been the only one using profanity and personality smears. He does not realize that his statement will force other members of that forum to look at the other site to see what he is talking about.

    The attempt at claiming “it doesn’t happen in my group” can no longer be used because the internet search engines have completely indexed this thread and it is easy to find.

    The attempt at claiming superior knowledge and medical credentials in Australia can no longer be substantiated because links have been provided that can be used to determine if this is true.

    The next step for a follower of the prophet Bill Wilson is to search the book written in 1936 at a 5th grade level for a solution. He knows that one is in there somewhere and he is in extreme mental confusion at what to do. The only possible solution that book contains is Step 9 “Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.” He is at a conundrum, amends at this point will be viewed by the flock of followers of the prophet Bill Wilson as an attack on the prophets teaching.

  • Slingblade

    I reported the thread, which led to the clean-out and mod warnings. Alfie is convinced that I reported him, personally, but I did not. Reporting the thread means I reported myself, as well. I’m not afraid of moderation, and I know when I’m guilty of stepping over the lines. JREF is a great place for anyone who values rational, critical thought, even if we do have our share of “Alfies.” Come join us, if any of you are so inclined. You’ll be welcomed…well, by most of us, anyway.

    I wanted to say I’ve enjoyed what I’ve read here at ST, especially your “glossary of terms.” I’m not a drinker; I’m the ex-wife of an abusive alcoholic, and finding people who see what I saw in the “program of the programmed” is quite refreshing. I wish all of you the best of health and sobriety!

  • Ben Franklin

    Alfie, you said you were not a counselor and it turns out you were. LIAR

  • To a follower of the prophet Bill Wilson the concept of “time” used as a way to humble those with less “time” in the program is very powerful. Currently Alfie has been challenged by a poster with a “time” of Join Date: Mar 2007 versus his “time” of Join Date: Oct 2009 he is forced to humble himself to a member of that group with a superior “time” join date.

    He followers of the prophet Bill Wilson have been directly asked a question:

    ProBonoShill and A.A. Alfie-

    Do the local A.A. districts in your areas not have Corrections and Treatment Committees?

    While they are not exactly the same as active recruitment, I can see how the actions delegated to these committees could be construed as “recruitment” by those who want to ascribe nefarious motives to AA.

    http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?s=0e8c11b7b6aca53f3ed87879016a3d86&p=7313828&postcount=4250

    The followers of the prophet Bill Wilson are desperately preparing an answer to this question and are going to use the “These are only suggestions”, “That doesn’t happen in my group” or “AA is not governed by anyone” circular defense. They are worried that someone may find the following link, which they will have to explain.

    http://aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/mg-05_coopwithcourt.pdf

  • causeandeffect

    Hi Slingblade! Welcome! There are several others here who are or have been spouses of abusive steppers too.

    It would appear calling people animals and dolts are acceptable over there as alfie’s last comment has not yet been removed.

    I agree with you that the idea that alcoholics have a “disease” that determines, not only their drinking behavior, but their core personality is very often used as an excuse for all kinds of bad behavior even in sobriety. All one needs to do is go to a few meetings to determine that. And the idea that only gawd can remove these “defects of character” allows one to simply act on any impulse they have since gawd hasn’t and never will remove their impulses for bad behavior. While they wait for this to happen, they abdicate all personal responsibility. It’s a ready-made excuse. Personally, I consider myself responsible for my drinking and my behavior before, during and after the fact. I also notice that very few steppers will make amends for their daily bad behavior since they see it as symptoms of a “disease” that dictates their behavior. The issue of step forced amends being hurtful have been addressed here as well.

  • The JREF community is now questioning the followers of the prophet Bill Wilson and their claims. The concept of “time” in the program is very strong in both members of Bill Wilson’s flock and JREF. The JREF community is extremely skeptical of unfounded claims and may not view the number of posts as “quality” but only “quantity.” A poster with a Join Date: Oct 2006 has now asked for qualification of a the claim that the Orange Papers are full of fallacies and asks for a verification:

    “ProBonoShill a number of days ago you said

    Originally Posted by ProBonoShill
    No, I’m dismissing him because his site has so many fallacies and contradictions I’ve grown tired of counting them.
    And were asked
    Quote:

    Quote one directly from Orange’s site and we’ll see about that.
    Please now show us the fallacies and contradictions on the Orange Papers site ”

    http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?s=c867db2ce2395ee67650d5bcbbf0c0e2&p=7313961&postcount=4251

    At this point the follower of the prophet Bill Wilson will attempt a “shotgun” tactic of providing numerous links in an attempt to cloud research. They have been directly asked for just “one” instance. They will provide many and when it is quickly becoming apparent that they have no defense against that claim they will attempt to switch to another one of their points never answering questions about the original instance being investigate resulting in circular thinking again.

  • SoberPJ

    Hey Slingblade, thanks for stopping by and I hope you come back. 🙂

  • I have to say, JRH that I absolutely don’t like this relentless diagnostic narrative voiceover project you’re working on here in re to Alfie. It seems bullying to me to respond to someone as if he isn’t there, while reporting in detail on everything he does and says as if it could seriously be considered objective evidence of some serious psychopathology.

    Could you not?

  • The “slogan” defense of circular thinking is now being attempted at JREF. The followers of the prophet Bill Wilson will not directly answer “one” instance of any claim. They will rely on “slogans” to start up the circular thinking defense that they have been trained in, expect no posts of any substance from them on one instance of any claim. They will now reply in “slogans” or give a “shotgun” answer used to cloud research.

    Example of last “slogan” circular defense used:

    “Any alcoholic who can’t blame his problems on something outside himself isn’t trying. ”

    http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?s=d2a22dd06dfbc109c37919c4036e63ca&p=7314030&postcount=4253

  • Sue

    Referring to the disease concept. It’s so hypocritical. On one hand your never a victim of circumstances, you always have a part in it. But when it comes to the disease your just an unfortunate victim. For many years I didn’t know which end was up. I was always looking for my part in it. I could never understand why anyone would want to blame their personality defects on being diseased. AA cant even guide people to see the truth about themselves. Every time I think I have analyzed all the negativity, something else surfaces.

  • Quagmire

    I know I am new here but I do say, Thanks to Ftg.
    Alfie could be a bit snarky (as only Aussie’s can) but the mate is quite intelligent. I/We may not agree with all his opinions but what the hey, all don’t agree here on everything, right.
    I mean you no disrespect JR Harris, I was just hoping for a more eventful conversation between the both of you. You are both intelligent (seem to know your history with AA and other similar subjects), witty and very good writers. Some of us come to a blog as such to learn from members such as yourself.

  • @friendthegirl – I will comply with your request. I was simply giving an example of what followers do to a “prospect” as they are instructed – “When you find a prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous, find out all you can about him” pg 90 of the “Big Book.”

    The voice over is the same thing that is done to the friends, spouses, family, clergy, doctors and law enforcement of a prospect. This is being done by a person who is using a 1936 5th grade reading level book and not trained to make these “suggestions” to the people they are making these “suggestions” too. I understand the dangers involved, I do not believe that the members of AA do.

    I will stop. I will however defend myself if directly attacked. If anyone disagrees with that I have an open mind.

  • SoberPJ

    It is hard for me to see how it would be ok for a “licensed” Australian mental health professional to engage in the kinds of behavior and language AA Alfie does. People may not stay anonymous forever, and if this kind of bizarre behavior was brought to my attention as a mental health facility business owner, he’d be sacked on the spot. It is interesting how insultive, and particularly sexually insultive ( what is up with that, really? From a professional charged with people’s mental well being?), the pro-AA’s tend to be. I think he has glimpses of his condition from time to time, because why else would he be trying to cover for himself on another forum. Very odd behavior. Come here, insult people, act strangely, then go to the other forum to point out how WE behave and insult us from there. He is like the village idiot bouncing from village to village trying to point out how stupid everyone else is in the other village. People see right through it, but the idiot can’t see what he is doing. His references to kiddie vs. adult things while acting very immature is also interesting. This is not psychoanalysis, just my perspective on the behavior and it is very strange indeed.

    I still find the almost immediate stooping to demeaning sexual references from Pro-AA people quite fascinating. It seems to be more common from the men rather than women. Assuming AA Alfie is a man, which I admittedly don’t know. It’s a curious response but I am sure anonymity plays a role. But still, I am anonymous and I haven’t demeaned anyone else’s sexuality on here ever. Nor have most of the others that frequent here. Quite frankly, it doesn’t even come to mind as a tactic for debate. And I would guess it isn’t a communication tactic for mentally healthy adults. At least those with a modicum of impulse control.

  • JR, I definitely understand your intentions and I know you’d never mean to bully anyone. It is absolutely not your style, and you have no history of such behavior. So, I hope you know I don’t think that was your intention. I just think it was coming off that way, and thank you very much for wrapping up this little performance art piece 🙂

    I’m glad you explained it!

  • Slingblade

    Hi, Causeandeffect, and thanks for the welcome!

    JREF is generally well-moderated, by ordinary members who volunteer for the position. As such, they make occasional mistakes, too. But one rule at JREF is “address the argument, not the arguer.” It is against the civility rules to make inflammatory personal remarks about members. That rule gets broken on a regular basis, but often isn’t sanctioned until it’s reported to the Mod group. We have a LOT of threads and sub-forums at JREF. it would be super-human to moderate them all. So member reports are very important.

    However, the civility rule applies to forum members only. People not members are fair game. If this were not the case, members could be sanctioned for any criticism of any other person on the planet. We couldn’t make our “friendly observations” about celebrities or politicians or such like. 😉

    What Alfie is doing is childish, hypocritical, and rude in the extreme. But it’s not actionable. However, on behalf of the decent people at JREF, I apologize for it.

  • Sue

    Yes, Alfie is intelligent but I have known some extremely intelligent people that are completely off balance. Personally, I dont want him taking up space in my head anymore. By now he has proven not worthy of it. However, It was enlightening. Jr, I was amazed by your composure.

  • Hi Slingblade!

    I have to admit defeat with the JREF thread (my handle there is ilsita). I meant to get back, but I couldn’t find the time, and then I realized that I was trying to have a conversation with someone who accused us of being a bunch of bigots. I guess that’s one way to kill a conversation.

  • Slingblade

    @Friendthegirl, hi! Yeah, I believe that’s called a “chilling effect.” 😉 IMO, the way to fight it, if one wants to fight it, that is, would be to become a member. Then, personal remarks would be actionable. I can understand picking one’s battles, though.

    @SoberPJ, thanks for the welcome! 😀

  • Ben Franklin

    I have heard people on this thread say Alfie is intelligent. After seeing his positions and argument style, i beg to differ.

  • Hi Slingblade. I like your posts on that site. They are not accusatory and focused. Very will done.

  • causeandeffect

    Personally, while it may have seemed like bullying, JR’s assessment of Alfie’s behavior was spot on. But I can understand why you wouldn’t want him addressed in this manner.

    I don’t find Alfie to be intelligent at all. I’ve been watching his tactics and he’s persistent but not smart. His only tactic is to attack and evade. And what is up with these sexual insults from steppers anyway? I’m not too convinced he’s a counselor. He says he is, then denies it, then says he is. I don’t really know what to believe and the only reason I’d care is out of concern for his patients. It’s easy to make such claims as an anonymous poster on the internet.
    Slingblade, no need to apologize. He’s not our first troll and he won’t be our last.

  • Sue

    Ben, you are right. I guess I was trying to be nice. But I was right when i said he was off balanced. Guess thats kind of obvious.

  • c&e, I probably shouldn’t have used the word bullying, especially because I know JR is not a bully. It all reminded me of when someone follows you around mocking everything you’re saying…and it seemed like it was drowning out the comments of people who actually wanted to engage in a dialog (or whatever one has with Alfie).

    Anyway… Sorry if I landed too hard.

  • MA

    You gotta admit that Alfie does have an amazing amount of stamina, as does his understudy, Probonoshill. I’ve admired their work for a few months now. How do they maintain a circle jerk like this for a year? Admirable is what it is.

  • Ben Franklin

    MA: yes,admirable but pointless.

  • Slingblade

    @JR: thank you for the nice words! To be honest, I have more than my share of “moments,” and a wicked sharp tongue. But I try to keep a lid on it, as much as possible. I’m not always successful, and sometimes hurt people or embarrass myself deeply. All I can do is try to keep…um…working my own “program,” so to speak. 🙂

  • MikeAugustine

    They have nothing better to do.

  • SoberPJ

    BF.. I was thinking that during my walk. Pointless, but with a strong desire to be seen as an adult and “winning” or have won. Won what really? At best it is a dominant position in an online, anonymous verbal skirmish. If he truly is a counselor and licensed in any way by the Government of Australia, his entire livelihood is at stake for the sake of winning these meaningless skirmishes. In reality, from a professional perspective, his behavior is disgraceful to the mental health profession, to his employer and to Australia. There isn’t a single professional organization that would condone his behavior. And true professionals wouldn’t engage like he does. Not really a lot to be proud of there. Some truly are sicker than others.

  • @Slingblade what do you think the best way is to keep discussion like this on topic? I have noticed that they always result in circular logic based around three topics:

    1. Spiritual vs Religious
    2. Disease theory
    3. These are only suggestions

    All discussions always end up in circular logic with these three topics as their basis. This has not changed since 1936 and is the basis for any argument that a follower of the prophet Bill Wilson will always use. It is an argument that will never be won or lost because the circular logic it uses prevents it. It always ends up in a marathon with the person getting the last word in believing they have won.

  • Slingblade

    @JR It’s difficult. The best defense, IMO, is a solid knowledge of logical fallacies, and how to counter them. It’s amazing how many arguments lose their power over you when you realize they’re fallacious, unsound, or invalid.

    Unfortunately, knowing logical argumentation doesn’t enable you to win against an opponent who is determined not to let you, determined not to see reason. He or she probably knows well that their arguments are so much froth and bubble. They’re getting off on making YOU froth and bubble. It’s a game. In those cases, you can’t see it as a contest, or something to be won. In those cases, all you can do is keep your cool, and continue to make your points and refute your opponent’s poor arguments, for the benefit of those watching or listening. People can’t be taught unless they’re willing to learn. But they can’t be taught at all if no one is providing the education.

    Those who are in it for the power-play have already their reward. Try to be in it for the sake of teaching, and of learning. Then, you always win.

  • Ben Franklin

    You also can’t debate on that thread without being accused of using a strawman!

  • Slingblade

    By the way, if some are not familiar with Penn and Teller’s Bullshit episode on 12 step programs, please view it! They taught me a few interesting things about the “disease theory” aspect. I found it on YouTube.

  • Slingblade

    @Ben, meh, people misuse perfectly good tools all the time. It’s easy to make a straw man argument, too, and not realize it. Sometimes, they may be right! Um..try not to start any sentence with “So, you’re saying…” because those are often straw men, and we don’t realize it.

    Truthfully, respectfully, and from my heart, if you’re just trying to score points against an opponent who doesn’t care to learn, who knows he’s wrong and doesn’t give two happy craps, you’ve already lost….

  • I have debate that we could have if anyone is up to it? I have a scenario to be explored and I am wondering about your thoughts and comments on it.

    Background: Any sunny Saturday morning in 2011 and a follower of the prophet Bill Wilson has identified a person who lives down the street as a “prospect” for AA.

    1. Prospect is seen leaving house at 9am wearing a “Jack Daniels” tee shirt, follower contacts friends of prospect saying this could lead to drinking and jails, institutions and death.
    2. Prospect is seen entering a local Bar and Grill at 11am and follower tells Spouse and friends that this has happened and that it will lead to jails, institutions and death. Follower also tells them not to tell the prospect that he has talked to them per instructions from the “Big Book” in Chapter 7.
    3. Spouse and Friends confront prospect who is eating pizza and having a beer and tell him if he continues that it will lead to jails, institutions and death. Follower has given his phone number to Spouse and Friends, telling them to call him if they need help.

    I could go on with this scenario and show how a follower of the prophet Bill Wilson could eventually end up in jails, institutions or death because of his/her actions, but I think that these three actions are enough to start. The questions are:

    1. Is the follower of Bill Wilson stalking or bullying his prospect?
    2. Is it right for the follower of Bill Wilson to tell the friends, family, etc…. to not mention that they have been talking to them about the prospect?
    3. Is what the follower of Bill Wilson doing OK because it is for the “greater good?”
    4. What happens when the follower makes a mistake?

  • DeConstructor

    @JR-

    You forgot to mention that many times the followers of the profit Bill Wilson may be a judge, probation officer, EAP, or a social worker, that feel it is best to induce a ‘rock bottom’ in their prospect.

    They have a real tendency to kill people.

  • I figured I would pick the average person. The Bill Wilson follower usually is just trying to be helpful and only a small percentage are meaning to be a “Spiritual Bully” in their actions. From a civil rights point of view, I am wondering if it is wrong what they are doing. Is it right to train people to go behind peoples backs and tell everyone they know what they are doing is wrong and then tell them to keep you Anonymous?

    In the US I know that you have a right to meet your accusers and refute what they are saying in a court of law. This thread is a very good example of this principal. You see I could have gone to the friends of Alfie using terminology and credentials to impress them and told them not tell him I said anything and then deny any knowledge. Instead I took a 3rd person stance and allowed everyone to see what I could have told people individually in private. From the comments I have read, it is unacceptable to do this because I was not doing this is private. Why to followers of the prophet Bill Wilson get away with this?

  • hulahoop

    Alfie is an idiot. And a true blue stepper to boot. Part of my serenity depends on seldom discussing AA with anyone like Alfie. AA is just like quitting any form of substance abuse, it will only happen when the person who is doing it is ready to stop. You can lead a horse to the writing on the wall, but you can’t make them read it nor comprehend it.

    Alfie is too far gone and has bought in to too much of the dogma. It isn’t people like him that concern me. The only thing that concerns me about people like him is the influence they might have over indoctrinating another in to that ridiculous, sham of a support group. Thank goodness for the Internet and people who are willing to tell the truth.

  • A.A. Alfie

    “Ben Franklin says
    Alfie, you said you were not a counselor and it turns out you were. LIAR”

    I did no such thing. What I am not is an “AA counsellor”. Understand now?

  • Hi A.A. Alfie – Have a good nights sleep?

  • DeConstructor

    Hey Alfie!

    Really what are you doing here? Are you here to convert us to your faith? Are you here simply to make nasty personal comments about people?

    I do not know. I did ask you a direct question which you apparently cannot or will not answer. It is important because it is directly related to the alleged credibility you claim.

    If you are going to come in here, and you feel you are qualified to argue with the grownups then welcome. However, you better have your facts straight rather than simply spout AA propaganda.

    The people here are well trained in the tactics of the AA faith and their profitable arm, the recovery industry cartel. I would suggest you study up on some real facts (they generally come from literature that is not approved by the AA faith)

    The people on this board have actually treated you fairly gently. I remember others in the past that have attempted your tactics and things did turn ugly.

  • Slingblade

    1. Is the follower of Bill Wilson stalking or bullying his prospect?

    Yes. No one comes to the realization of any problem s/he may have by being told by other people.
    People aren’t sheep to be herded into whatever pen or cage another chooses for them.

    2. Is it right for the follower of Bill Wilson to tell the friends, family, etc…. to not mention that they have been talking to them about the prospect?

    No. If one suspects a spouse or children are being abused or harmed, let the authorities be summoned for this, as is their purview. But to interfere, unasked, in a private relationship–even in the guise of “helping”–is unconscionable. The follower may be wrong. The follower was not asked for help. The follower is being a Nosy Parker, and intruding where he has no place to intrude.

    3. Is what the follower of Bill Wilson doing OK because it is for the “greater good?”

    No. If this were a legitimate form of reasoning, then by that token, we should *all* be followed about and herded into groups, because we all have problems that affect both us and our communities. Who determines what best serves the “greater good,” anyway? Are we all to police one another, instead of ourselves?

    It puts this into the realm of “thought crime.” You can’t prevent someone from doing harm, to self or others, unless you lock him up, remove his freedom, and inform him his self-will must bow to the will of others.

    4. What happens when the follower makes a mistake?

    You mean, what happens if the follower of Bill is wrong about what he thinks he sees?
    He hurts people. He hurts families. He hands the subject more reasons not to seek help or treatment, if such is indeed needed. He enables denial.

    The only person we each control is our own self. If we cannot manage that control, how can another person do so? To attempt it is a form of tyranny. I have the right to utterly destroy myself, if I so choose. No one can choose health for me.

    If a spouse or family member comes to someone in the program and begs for help for their spouse or relative, it should be gently explained that help cannot be forced on anyone. The only person the spouse/family member can help is him- or herself. Be available to lend an ear, or to offer whatever help you may to that person.

    I fought leaving my drunk for 13 years. It warped me, changed me into someone I don’t like very much. But I did it to my own damned self. I should have left, long ago. I let my religion convince me I was being willful and disobedient to some god, who otherwise didn’t seem to know I existed. I no longer believe in gods. All my bad choices and poor outcomes were mine alone. Now, by trying to learn and practice critical thinking, my live is much, much better. At least now I know who to blame when things go wrong.

  • hulahoop

    Hi Alfie, glad you could stop by. Please explain to me why you think AA is spiritual and not religious. Also, you seem to be thriving on the attention you are receiving here. Is that true? How much stock do you place in what Dr. Drew says and do you think it is overkill and fame whoredom that he has so many shows?

  • hulahoop

    Alfie says I did no such thing. What I am not is an “AA counsellor”. Understand now?

    I don’t. Please explain.

    • MA

      Alfie is Forensics Addictions Counselor, which he cited in in first post in that inane thread as to why he is right about AA. It’s the old “argument from authority” logical fallacy. If you have $160 and a few hours to kill, you too can get your certification here, and be as qualified as Alfie.

  • hulahoop

    MA says Alfie is Forensics Addictions Counselor, which he cited in in first post in that inane thread as to why he is right about AA. It’s the old “argument from authority” logical fallacy. If you have $160 and a few hours to kill, you too can get your certification here, and be as qualified as Alfie.

    Forensics addiction counseler? WTF is that exactly? Does that make him higher power material? I thought forensics was for dead people. But then again I thought AA was a support group too….there you go.

  • Excellent analysis Slingblade. I like the “thought crime” theory and had actually not “thought” of it. I believe there was a movie done about that a few years ago where people were targeted for arrest because three genetically breed human beings had dreams of someone doing a crime in the future. So they arrested them for it. It is along the same lines………. and very controversial.

  • Oh dear. A forensic Addictions Counselor. I did not know there was a difference!

    From Part 4 of the Course:

    Course Objective: Includes trauma and domestic violence; anger management; parenting from a distance; methamphetamine, porn and parole; formatting assessment reports for the legal system; and ethics, laws and boundaries.

    Entire Part 4 section from BREINING INSTITUTE and the actual 50 Question exam:

    https://www.addictionspecialists.com/pdf/FACEdCourseP4.pdf

    This is disturbing – some of the questions needed to be answered:

    24. In Meth, Porn and Parole, what was one of the more difficult conditions for the
    interviewees to address?
    a. sexual relations
    b. family relations
    c. homosexual relations
    d. all of the above

    29. Who within the legal system might seek and employ the services of an expert in the
    field of addictions, such as a Forensic Addiction Counselor (FAC), to perform an
    evaluation for addiction dependence and make treatment recommendations?
    a. criminal attorneys or public defenders
    b. family law attorneys
    c. judges
    d. all of the above

    39. Forensic Addiction Counselors are working in a unique environment where the
    integration of what is paramount to meeting the needs of the client, while balancing
    safety and security needs?
    a. self and others
    b. law and ethics
    c. morals and values
    d. thoughts and actions

    A follower of the prophet Bill Wilson with access to this type of information could be extremely dangerous. I never looked at the Bill Wilson Counselor variant before. I think it is important to know what information your counselor will ask for and what they will do with it.

  • SoberPJ

    As a mental health urine transport specialist, Alfie needs to comply with a code of ethics in his professional, and by extension, personal life. We have another JD-like thing going on here. http://www.aasw.asn.au/publications/ethics-and-standards

    Total and disgraceful hypocrite, thoroughly unprofessional. Now THAT is sad.

  • Jonny Quest

    JR Harris: “A follower of the prophet Bill Wilson with access to this type of information could be extremely dangerous. I never looked at the Bill Wilson Counselor variant before. I think it is important to know what information your counselor will ask for and what they will do with it.”

    JR, you once posted a link to a company that provided a “course” for training people in how to “interview” suspected addicts. They had some taped interviews on there, and I recall some very crafty tactics to “trick” people into confessing.

    Do you still have the link to that? If so, can you re-post?

  • A.A. Alfie

    Let’s see…
    JRH – A great nights sleep thank. And you]?

    DC asks, what am I doing here. Well that should be pretty obvious, there was a whole thread dedicated to me. I had no idea this forum exen existed until someone mentioned it at JREF. There was an obvious respect for me so I just felt like I should be involved.

    Am I trying to convert anyone. Not for a moment, your business is yours and I have no dog in your race.
    Am I here to make nasty comments. You may not have noticed but thyere were plenty of nasty comments about me before I even arrived. But I am not much of one to “turn the other cheek” and will just about always give as good as I get with no apologies or guilt around same. That said, I am rarely the first to attack.
    I apologise, but what direct question did I miss?
    On things turning ugly. Meh!
    Hula hoop. Why is AA spiritual not religious? Or why do I think AA is spiritual and not religious. There is a difference.
    The simple answer (and fact) is they mean two completely different things don’t they? If you don’t believe me, google “spirituality definitions”, review a few and check what I have said agaist those references. Spirituality does not require a belief in a supernatural power (but it can); religion does – generally speaking. Now I will always concede that the big book, Bill Wilson have their roots firmly in Christianity, however in practice (where I come from anyway) the practical application of AA does not.
    Who and what is a Dr Drew?
    I was accused by Ben F of lying about (not?) being a counsellor, there was a misunderstanding I think. I am a counsellor in addiction (as well as other disciplines). I am not what I think some described as an “AA counsellor”.

  • A.A. Alfie

    As to my qualifications. My title is slightly different to those cited, my qualifications completely different to the ‘buy-a-certificate’ mentioned.

    Suffice it to say, you will never guess what I have, my employers, my full title, nor who I am exactly and I will never tell you fully. And even if I did tell you I would not prove it. I think there are dangerous idiots here and my personal details will remain anonymous.

    But in the meantime, keep guessing by all means. It gives me a thrill and a giggle.

  • ProBonoShill

    This place is quite fascinating. I don’t believe I’ve encountered so many delusions in one place before. Congratulations!

    Just finished “follow the money”

    Pure comedy. You guys have nothing on the idiotic 9/11 truthers.

    With all this rampant abuse and financial fraud occuring you’d think someone would at least alert the FBI. Oh wait they’re probably in on it too!

    Maybe AA is really the NWO!

    Oh and it’s nice to know you’re a bunch of cowards who attack people behind their backs, how noble of you. Especially you islita.

    Don’t bother replying I have no itention of hanging around your hate-infested little circle jerk.

    If you want me, you know where to find me.

    Oh and if you’re reading this Slingblade, I suggest you take the advice you’re so willing to dish out back at JREF, mind your own damn business.

  • DeConstructor

    Alfie got his sponsor to comment.

    I think we are getting under his skin a little.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Afie’s sponsor. he he he

    As for hate filled, what is the purpose of this forum exactly?

  • Hi A.A. Alfie – Actually I had a very good nights sleep. Welcome to Stinkin Thinkin, did you ever notice that under the name it plainly says “Muckraking the 12-Step Industry?” The posters here have varied backgrounds and have pretty much all been exposed to the 12-Step Industry with devastating experiences. Very few of us drink anymore and have quit on our own.

    I guess as you have already noticed it is hard to determine how many of us there are because we are semi Anonymous. You only run into the more vocal of us who have learned the tactics used to stifle us and ways to prevent it. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I am researching the people that attempt to stifle free speech and ways to prevent it.

    To give you an idea of the demand for this information on a daily, monthly and yearly perspective you can find it here:

    http://www.orange-papers.org/webstats/

    As you can see the monthly stats for June 2001 to date are 50,942 visits, with 757,190 hits. You will be correct in assuming that there is no way to determine if these visit statistics are from pro or anti AA visiters. This is the same problem that corporate AA in New York has in determining their statistics.

    My hypothesis on the number of hits and visits at the Orange Papers subject site is that there is demand for this material and it is very high They are not more vocal about it because when they do try to say to voice their opinion, they are immediately met with a circular thinking slogan and statistics that have sampling bias from a corporation with members who are also anonymous.

    The other problem that I have is that the members of Alcoholics Anonymous will claim that they are not run by a corporation and have no leaders. Then they will use material and statistic derived and from this corporation to prove that AA works. I believe that the term you would use for this is a “Strawman”, but I am not sure. I would prefer to use a term that the average person would understand, such as “faulty logic” because it is more universally understood.

    Can you see the problem in sampling bias on both sides? Can you understand why people might not be vocal about their views because they are immediately hit with a slogan that is not derived from a thought process but memorized? Can you understand why I want to teach people who want to speak about the problems that they have experienced how to avoid the slogans and tactics that cause faulty logic?

  • I also thought I would just mention that I am going to be going by the JREF rules of “address the argument (not the arguer) and be civil and polite” I believe that JREF has decided to heavily moderate that thread because this was rule was being broken. I have never posted on that thread. Please be civilized.

    And by the way – Hi ProBonoShill

  • SoberPJ

    There’s that bossy ending again .. “mind your own damn business”. What is it with AA’ s and being so damned bossy? Total, grandiose entitlement. I can tell anyone what to do and I will damn it. I am happy, joyous and free precisely because of this wonderful 12 Step program I follow and you are all a bunch of delusional cowards and so mind your own damn business. Simply too wierd.

  • Ooops – I made a typo I said “As you can see the monthly stats for June 2001” when is should have been “As you can see the monthly stats for June 2011” please excuse the mistake it is a little after 6am here.

  • DeConstructor

    It is always hopeless for a member of the AA faith to try to use statistics, or for that matter facts.

    They simply evangelize their propaganda and prophecies louder.

    The AA faith simply crumbles under critical thought, requiring the use of thought stopping slogans, laced with as many nasty personal attacks as possible.

    Like right wing christian evangelicals, the space between theology, policy, and practice is inexplainable and in dire need of exposure. I think this author really nails it, while posting in the oxymoron religiousintelligence.

    http://www.religiousintelligence.com/christianity/why-evangelicals-hate-jesus/

  • ProBonoShill

    “Alfie got his sponsor to comment.”

    I highly doubt Alfie wants me as a sponsor considering I’ll only be hitting three years sobriety this coming July and he’s been studying addiction long before I stopped drinking. I’d love to have HIM as a sponsor though, unfortunately that’d be a tad bit difficult since we live on opposite ends of the planet. ( I reside in the Toronto area of Canada)

  • ProBonoShill why would you pick Alfie as a sponsor? I am just wondering what a good set of criteria would be.

  • DeConstructor

    probonoshill stated:

    Don’t bother replying I have no itention of hanging around your hate-infested little circle jerk.

    Most members of the AA faith post a couple of times before being outrightly deceptive. I can see why you are drawn to the AA faith.

    13th stepped anyone lately?

  • A.A. Alfie

    That’s a nice thing tosay PBS, and I thank you for the high praise.

    JRH. Was there actually a question in there, it did seem rather rhetorical and soap-boxy to me.

    I am here to explain my views, not AAs – although they will occasionally cioncide.
    And finally, is your niceness by way of an apology to me for the abuse and ridicule? If so, I would dearly love you to articulate same in a more appropriate way – no, you don’t need to get on your knees. 🙂
    We can then have a fresh start and I will be glad to both respond in kind and then engage in a like fashion.

    Fair enough?

  • A.A. Alfie

    DC.
    Do you really think you can offend either of us? Seriously? tch tch. Delusional pops to mind.

    By the way, you sound a little engrossed with this 13th stepping stuff. Is it possible you are still using your hand? You seem somehow jealous of people that might be having sex?

  • DeConstructor

    I am concerned, as I think others here are also, that the common practice of raping vulnerable newcomers who cannot think straight nor defend themselves is not a humorous matter.

    It certainly explains why some of the high seniority oldtimers keep coming to the meetings.

  • DeConstructor – I think it would be interesting to find what criteria someone would use to want to have a sponsor for a person they have never met who lives half way around the world. Their selection process seems to be working for them, I think it would be interesting to know how they do it so we can let other people know about this. There is no set criteria for picking a sponsor online yet that I know of. The AA corporation in New York does have a pamphlet for it in person. I am not sure that I should use it though, because of the sampling bias and Anonymity of the members which prevent getting a real sample population.

  • causeandeffect

    JR, please check your inbox.

  • ProBonoShill

    “You shouldn’t characterize all of usas hate filled ppl? Right? ProBono–Are you in AA?”

    Yes you’re right and I apologize.

    I’ve been in AA almost three years after drinking since the age of 14 for 28 years.

    Over the years I’ve seen multiple family doctors, 3 psychiatrists, a psychotherapist, been to group therapy and had a one-on-one addiction counsellor. None of it worked.

    In 28 years the longest I managed to keep myself sober was 30 days on two occasions.

    A pal from high school who ended as one of my drinking companions entered AA 18 months before I did, He stayed sober, I continued to drink. We never discussed my drinking at all, he never once suggested I go to a meeting. I later asked him why and he essentially said it had to be my decision to quit drinking.

    After once again putting my wife and kids in a state of distress I wanted to give up the battle and called my friend.

    I’ll just end this by saying as an agnostic, (along with my friend) I have some issues with AA. It isn’t perfect by any means, I just don;t understand the hate I read here. AA isn’t some secret cabal plotting to brainwash addicts, It’s a collection of volunteer self help groups who are trying to get people sober. No one has ever pushed religion on me and my sponsor is well aware of my dislike of god in the big book, I complain about it all the time.

    But as Alfie says: I’m not quite ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Alcohol is still a scary thing to me and my friends at AA help me cope.

    Thanks for the welcome JR, your idea is a good one.

  • DeConstructor

    I have always considered the criteria for sponsor selection to be interesting.

    With as much of public relations disaster this has been in the news- such as the torture/rape/murder/arson of a Delaware physicians family by a court ordered AA sponsor/sponsee tag team, it cannot be a good thing for AA Inc.

    There should be policy and oversight of a system, particularly in the court ordered setting, that creates such networking opportunitues for predators.

  • A.A. Alfie

    “DeConstructor says
    I am concerned, as I think others here are also, that the common practice of raping vulnerable newcomers who cannot think straight nor defend themselves is not a humorous matter.”

    And naturally people have been charged with rape regularly. If it is “common practice” of yourse you can prove this?
    What’s that, you don’t need to in this forum? I understand.
    You really are a wanker.

  • ProBonoShill

    “ProBono–The amount of sobriety a person has, equates his honesty, humbleness, generosity, and just plain wholesomeness to you? I am just curious”

    My apologies, the mechanics of posting here is a little different than what I’m used to.

    No not all, I know some guys with several years of sobriety who I don’t associate with, one in particular I don’t care to ever see again.

  • DeConstructor

    That is the problem Alfie. These people are not charged with rape as the should because of the concocted ruse of anonymity.

    Google the MidTown Q Group

  • ProBonoShill – What criteria do you use to decide not to use a sponsor?

  • A.A. Alfie

    “DeConstructor says

    There should be policy and oversight of a system, particularly in the court ordered setting, that creates such networking opportunitues for predators.”

    While I haven’t looked into that (Delaware was it?) reference, your issue is actually with the courts that abdicate responsibility for either punishing and/or rehabilitating the criminals, not AA. It seems to me that AA by adhering to its traditions, is being exploited by both the judicial system and the criminal element. AA would appear an innocent bystander in this. AA is being raped and it is you that want to blame the victim.

    What an incredible lack of logical thinking. I am truly boggled

  • SoberPJ

    So Alfie. Is this a display of your degree of professionalism? ” By the way, you sound a little engrossed with this 13th stepping stuff. Is it possible you are still using your hand? You seem somehow jealous of people that might be having sex? ”

    Any objective observer can clearly see that you have issues with sex. The derrogatory micropenis comment and now this.

    DC is clearly talking about sexual abuse and harassment within the AA ecosystem. This abuse is real and much of it has been documented by an activist on this blog – Massive Attack. These are very serious topics in the mental health arena and you, as a paid professional counselor, treat them with bizarre disregard. There isn’t a professional mental health or social worker certification or accreditation organization on the planet that would condone your actions. Once again, I say you are a disgrace to the mental health profession and you need some serious counseling and guidance on how to behave like a licensed professional.

  • A.A. Alfie

    DeConstructor says
    “That is the problem Alfie. These people are not charged with rape as the should because of the concocted ruse of anonymity.”

    Then your problem is with the police, not AA. They are clearly morons if they cannot locate these “common practice predators” you state frequent the meetings.

  • ProBonoShill

    “I am concerned, as I think others here are also, that the common practice of raping vulnerable newcomers who cannot think straight nor defend themselves is not a humorous matter.

    It certainly explains why some of the high seniority oldtimers keep coming to the meetings”

    This is the nonsense I’m talking about.

    Common Practice? Do you have evidence to back this up? How many charges have been laid? Been to hundreds of meetings, met hundreds of people, none have been raped.
    The practice can’t be that common. How come there are no news outlets reporting this. That’d be a pretty big story no?

  • A.A. Alfie

    SoberPJ says
    “So Alfie. Is this a display of your degree of professionalism”

    I didn’t realise I was on the clock and you were paying me. Where should I send my invoice?

  • A.A. Alfie – I was wondering what you thought of the moderator at JREF posting this:

    Thread reopened. For the last time, address the argument (not the arguer) and be civil and polite. Further bickering and incivility will lead to the thread being placed on moderated status, or possibly being closed outright.
    Posted By:jhunter1163 Today, 02:27 AM #4248

    Do you feel like that is a fair assessment of what was going on over there and it was a fair warning?

  • ProBonoShill

    “ProBonoShill – What criteria do you use to decide not to use a sponsor?”

    I never approached it that way. When I was a few months sober I started looking for a sponsor. Someone who I thought I could relate to, who was laid back, who’s story I had heard and had been sober for awhile. I actually had to ask three people because the first two already had a few sponsees and apologized but said the couldn’t give me the time I required.

  • A.A. Alfie

    SoberPJ says
    “DC is clearly talking about sexual abuse and harassment within the AA ecosystem.”

    AAA: No he said “rape was common practice”.

    PJ: “This abuse is real and much of it has been documented by an activist on this blog – Massive Attack.”

    Hilarious, you believe what an activist tells you?
    psst. I have some cheap land in Florida.

    PJ “These are very serious topics in the mental health arena and you, as a paid professional counselor, treat them with bizarre disregard.”

    AAA: No, I treat fools with scant disregard. Important and serious issue I treat with due concern

    PJ: “There isn’t a professional mental health or social worker certification or accreditation organization on the planet that would condone your actions.”

    AAA: What actions? Dimissing children as fools?

    PJ: “Once again, I say you are a disgrace to the mental health profession and you need some serious counseling and guidance on how to behave like a licensed professional.”

    OOhhh. sniffle… that sounds a lot like you aren’t going to pay me.

  • DeConstructor

    There is getting to be more and more documentation of these rapes.

    Massive Attack, one of our distinguished posters here at ST has her own blog documenting this systematic problem.

    http://stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com/

    As far as I am concerned, since the AA confidentiality thing is allegedly a ‘suggestion’, I am suggesting to people to post these predators on the internet.

    I would also recommend the use of hidden cams in AA meetings, with the footage uploaded to Youtube. This is particularly important since the AA faith, at a corporate level, actively lobbies courts to send them fresh meat.

    The public needs to be aware of what is actually going on.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JRH

    Yep. It was a fair warning and I will cop my fair whack: I allowed myself to go a little further than I normally would allow myself there over the previous couple of days. That said, it was quite deliberate, there was one moron who really needed to be put in their place (JM are the initials).

    I don’t need to let off steam there any more. I have others to do that with here now and no rules.

    The rules I set myself are simple. Give me a hit, get ready, theres a slap or two coming back. Remember too, I have thick skin. In fact – true story – many of my mates call me Rhino. Why? They reckon I am thick-skinned and unstoppable. 🙂

    Cheers.

  • That is a good description ProBonoShill, I was actually going to ask if there was any change in your selection criteria for a sponsor from when you first started and now. How long to you think is an adequate time length to know someone before you pick them as a sponsor?

  • causeandeffect

    Alfie said: “But I am not much of one to “turn the other cheek” and will just about always give as good as I get with no apologies or guilt around same. That said, I am rarely the first to attack.”

    “Give back as good as I get” is exactly what JD said twice. His style is more like Danny’s– more juvenile.

  • ProBonoShill

    “That is the problem Alfie. These people are not charged with rape as the should because of the concocted ruse of anonymity.

    Google the MidTown Q Group”

    Wrong.

    They weren’t charged because there was no evidence.

    From the article:

    “We interviewed 15 to 20 people, and they all said he’s doing it. But it was all, ‘It wasn’t me,’ ” said Montgomery police Sgt. Ron Collins of the department’s pedophile section. “Nobody’s come forward with anything we could charge him with .

    Anecdotes aren’t evidence.

  • A.A. Alfie – that’s fair. Do you think that this is the correct forum for you to start coming to?

  • DeConstructor

    Anecdotes aren’t evidence.

    With AA’s success rate being less than 5% according to THEIR OWN NUMBERS, ‘Anecdotes aren’t evidence’ should be the subtitle of this site.

  • ProBonoShill – did you also read how many churches banned them from holding meetings at them?

  • ProBonoShill

    “That is a good description ProBonoShill, I was actually going to ask if there was any change in your selection criteria for a sponsor from when you first started and now. How long to you think is an adequate time length to know someone before you pick them as a sponsor?”

    No if I were to move away or something and require a new sponsor my criteria would be the same.

    I think you should wait a few months before getting a sponsor and the relationship should never be co-ed.

  • DeConstructor

    Also PBS-

    ‘We interviewed 15 to 20 people, and they all said he’s doing it. But it was all, ‘It wasn’t me,’

    That is the concocted ruse of anonymity, promoted ny the AA faith. And yes those victims were raped and due to their vulnerable state were not aware they were probably traded among the old guys in the backroom before the meeting.

  • ProBonoShill – what do you think about people who insist that a newcomer get a sponsor as quickly as possible?

  • SoberPJ

    As a previous Vice President of the Board of a $9 million wellness provider, I can assure you that your behavior is unprofessional. If it came to light that one of our employees was engaging in childish, demeaning and vulgar behavior in online forums that involved their specialty, they would be dealt with very quickly. If you use the defense that it is an anonymous environment and they wouldn’t find out, then you need to look real hard in the mirror. That defense illuminates the fact that you know what you are doing is wrong, yet you continue anyway. You need help. The profession you chose demands a degree of self control and decorum in all your activities. It does not include using your training to demean and belittle people or act like an adolescent in online environments. If you find that you cannot stop your disgraceful behavior and become the professional that your position requires, you should seek help . Long term, nothing good will come from reinforcing this type of behavior in yourself. What would you tell a patient to do if they came to you and said they were acting abusively and unprofessionally in online forums and couldn’t or didn’t want to stop? Seriously, wake up.

  • ProBonoShill

    With AA’s success rate being less than 5% according to THEIR OWN NUMBERS, ‘Anecdotes aren’t evidence’ should be the subtitle of this site

    You came up with that from Orange’s site correct?

    Do you know Orange also states there is a: “scarcity of good, properly run randomized longitudinal controlled studies of the effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous”

    I happen to agree with him.

    That study never mentions how much time the focus group subjects spent in AA. Did they go to one meeting, 4 or 5, a thousand? Maybe some of those people left after a few meetings and didn’t like AA. Were they counted as those treated by AA?

    They don’t even qualify what they mean by alcoholic. 2 drinks a day?, five? ten?

  • ProBonoShill

    ProBonoShill – did you also read how many churches banned them from holding meetings at them?

    No how many?

    Wouldn’t that be a good thing?

  • DeConstructor

    That number is on the orange papers.

    However it was documented in the Valliant Study, the biography of Bill Wilson written by his personal secretary, and the comments Bill W made himself at Robert Smiths funeral.

    This does not include the documentation of the very real danger people have when drinking under the influence of the AA faith, which was cleary documented in the well run Brandsma Study, a longitudinal study under the auspices of the University of Maryland.

  • ProBonoShill

    “That is the concocted ruse of anonymity, promoted ny the AA faith. And yes those victims were raped and due to their vulnerable state were not aware they were probably traded among the old guys in the backroom before the meeting.”

    No arrests were made, not enough evidence. AA’s anonymity wouldn’t have saved him from the authorites. In fact his name was puplished in the article.

    One creep in AA doesn’t equate to OH MY GOD AA IS FULL OF DIRTY OLD MEN RAPING INNOCENT 9 YEAR OLDS.

  • DeConstructor

    Unfortunately the fact is-

    AA is full of dirty old men raping innocent 9 year olds.

    Check out the “Keep coming back” section of this site.

    We keep tabs on them.

  • ProBonoShill – one thing that is missing from the analogy of that there are no good studies available, is that you did not mention that is on both sides because of anonymity.

    As an example, you may be wondering how many people feel the way the majority of the poster on this site do. Because the members are semi-anonymous it is hard to gauge and can never be accurate, only approximate. This can be determined approximately by the demand for this information on a daily, monthly and yearly perspective and can be found:

    http://www.orange-papers.org/webstats/

    As you can see the monthly stats for June 2011 to date are 50,942 visits, with 757,190 hits. You will be correct in assuming that there is no way to determine if these visit statistics are from pro or anti AA visitors. This is the same problem that corporate AA in New York has in determining their statistics.

    My hypothesis on the number of hits and visits at the Orange Papers subject site is that there is demand for this material and it is very high They are not more vocal about it because when they do try to say to voice their opinion, they are immediately met with a circular thinking slogan and statistics that have sampling bias from a corporation with members who are also anonymous.

  • ProBonoShill

    ProBonoShill – what do you think about people who insist that a newcomer get a sponsor as quickly as possible?

    I think those people are wrong, depending on the circumstances.

    Now my turn, why do you have links to groups who let anyone join as AA does, SMART abd SOS. Why do they get a free pass. A rapist could walk into one of theri meetings tommorrow, what are they doing about it?

    Also you have links to other recovery sources. You’re interested in AA finances which is fine. Can you tell me what Dr. Linda Garcia and My Way Out made last year?

    How about Jack Trimpy and Rational Recovery? How much did they pull in? Just curious.

  • DeConstructor

    We would rather not change the subject PBS.

    Since you were just yelling in UPPER CASE, I find it hard to believe that you are that particualrly interested in Jack Trimpeys tax returns

  • ProBonoShill

    “This does not include the documentation of the very real danger people have when drinking under the influence of the AA faith, which was cleary documented in the well run Brandsma Study, a longitudinal study under the auspices of the University of Maryland”

    It was well run? Why because you say so?

    You’re using an argument from authority fallacy.

    The study had a miniscule sample group, who had problem drinkers filling out questionaires. That’s what you call well run?

    Once again, what constitutes AA treatment?. If a guy i ordered by the courts to attend meetings he quits after the required 20 because he has no intention of quiting drinking is AA a failure? What if someone shows up for a night and decides it sucks is that failed treatment?

  • ProBonoShill – actually I will not give a free pass on rape to any recovery group. I will do anything in my power to expose them if that is happening. If you find out that is happening I hope you will also. I also know that in the groups you mentioned that were not AA, they have a command structure which is set up that will do something about it.

    I actually have not tried to look up how much those non AA groups make a year. I believe that this is because no one has ever told me they have never “made a dime.” As a skeptic I substantiate those claims. I also go to independent resources for my information. Anything published by that organization will not be used as proof, it must come from a reliable independent source. Currently I use Government Tax records which anyone can see if the corporation is a non-profit.

  • ProBonoShill

    “If you 2 are denying that this happens frequently within AA then I will just throw MY hands up. No point you are a brainwashed minion of good ole Bill frickin’ Wilson. Your god…you know its true….

    It would be nice to see an AA’er be honest (some have that I met but they cover it up anyway) This is honestly sickening to me. I personally knew 2 woman in AA that were raped. They are too afraid to say anything and if they do their sponsor tells them what is thier part? It is the whole philosophy of the program that LETS this continue to happen. But you just cannot see it. It is quite disturbing and Alfie please I beg you to change careers.”

    This one giant appeal to emotion, do you have a list of people facing charges or convicted of rape? You need proof to back up your claims. Put your critical thinking cap on.

  • DeConstructor

    We can have this conversation about the qualities of the study, We will not have that conversation now.

    We were talking about the 13th stepping/rapes that occur in AA.

    Apparently you have forgotten about that. This is upsetting due to the fact it is widespread, and it is on the increase.

    There has been discussion here to send certified letters to judges with our documentation of these crimes. It is our intention to stop this practice by cutting off the supply of fresh meat by actually making the judges personally liable for the actions or nonactions of each AA group regarding the sexual mistreatment of people sentenced to them.

  • ProBonoShill

    It’s late over here, I’m off to bed.

    I’ll be back soon.

    Take care and nice talking to you.

  • raysny

    ProBonoShill states:
    “They weren’t charged because there was no evidence.”

    The investigation died when Mike Q. died.

  • raysny

    Authors: Cathy J. Bogart a; Carol E. Pearce a
    Affiliation: a Department of Psychology, Avila University, Kansas City, MO.
    DOI: 10.1080/10884600305373
    Publication Frequency: 4 issues per year
    Published in: journal Journal of Addictions Nursing, Volume 14, Issue 1 Spring 2003 , pages 43 – 47

    Abstract
    “Thirteenth-stepping” is a euphemistic term used among members of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) to refer to people (particularly men) who target new, more vulnerable members (typically women) for dates or sex. Previous research suggests that women frequently experience sexual harassment in AA meetings and even in chemical dependency treatment settings. The objective of this survey study is to describe the frequency of various 13th-stepping experiences in a sample of women involved in AA.

    Fifty-five women, aged 17-72 years, completed an anonymous survey to describe their experiences with 13th-stepping by men in AA. Results showed that at least 50% of the participants had at least occasionally experienced seven of the thirteen 13th-stepping behaviors listed in the survey. Also, compared to women who had never attended a female-only AA group, women who had attended such groups reported more 13th-stepping experiences from their attendance at coed groups. Two of the study participants volunteered that men they met in AA had raped them.

    It is important that chemical dependency treatment providers be aware of 13th-stepping in AA, particularly when treating women. Especially vulnerable women, such as those with histories of sexual abuse, should be referred to female-only groups when possible. When women’s groups are unavailable, women should be adequately prepared to protect themselves from 13th-stepping.

  • A.A. Alfie

    DeConstructor says

    “That is the concocted ruse of anonymity, promoted ny the AA faith. And yes those victims were raped and due to their vulnerable state were not aware they were probably traded among the old guys in the backroom before the meeting.”

    Like I said earlier. If your police force is that inept….

  • Hey raysny good to see you again. I see you have found out about our two new posters that are boosting the SEO rating of this site for us so the search engines can find it easier. I sure appreciate it and I am sure that anyone else who is searching the internet for alternatives to AA will also.

  • A.A. Alfie

    wanting accountablity says

    “If you 2 are denying that this happens frequently within AA then I will just throw MY hands up. No point you are a brainwashed minion of good ole Bill frickin’ Wilson. Your god…you know its true….”

    And if you are suggesting it happens “frequently”, you are delusional. So far we have seen one despicable act perpetrated by a creep. This person should be tarred, feathered and castrated imo.
    But to suggest AA is turning a blind eye to this is as disgusting as the rape itself and unless you have actual proof, by way of charges etc, then all you are doing is engaging in idle gossip.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris says
    “I sure appreciate it and I am sure that anyone else who is searching the internet for alternatives to AA will also.”

    What are these alternatives exactly, their modalities and their short, medium and long term success rates?

  • A.A. Alfie – can you explain to me what a “Strawman” is? I think I know, but I would like to know your definition. I’ll follow your definition. Mine might be different.

  • A.A. Alfie

    DeConstructor says
    “Unfortunately the fact is-
    AA is full of dirty old men raping innocent 9 year olds.
    Check out the “Keep coming back” section of this site.
    We keep tabs on them.”

    Sigh…
    No, this is speculation and slander unless you have EVIDENCE.

  • A.A. Alfie

    wanting accountablity says
    “Man I like you Decon can we get in touch, maybe.”

    Are you 13th stepping?

  • A.A. Alfie

    Wanting Accountablity says

    “Like I said earlier, If that kind of ‘denial’ helps you sleep at night…. I am here to tell you it is true. Unfortunate, wrong, horrible something you don’t want to hear or know but nevertheless very true. I have seen it and known about it with my own eyes sweetness”

    I think you have reading difficulties, I only believe things when I see the EVIDENCE.

  • A.A. Alfie – this is not a recovery site, we only provide those links for informational purposes and do not tell anyone which one they should use. This is a site set up only to discuss and expose those that would be dangerous to newcomers to AA either sexually, financially or mentally, and provide links to alternative resources. Welcome.

  • DeConstructor

    Well Alfie-

    Now that you are shotgunning insults rater than even reading the posts, i think this battle is over.

    Your partner, who by the way is much smarter than you are, has simply given up and gone away

  • A.A. Alfie

    wanting accountablity says

    “Can we stay on the abuses that occur within aa?: Is that cool with everyone”

    No! No! No!
    This thread is about me and I want you all to stay on subject 😉

  • A.A. Alfie

    Wanting Accountablity says

    “Really? As a therapist that is your comeback? Disturbing…..very, very disturbing.”

    No, as a skeptic with critical thinking skills, that is my comeback.
    I will put my therapist hat on when you pay my invoice, until then I am off the clock.

    Just curious, what do you do for a job?

  • A.A. Alfie – I sure hope you don’t get banned from the “grownups table.” By the way this thread is about discussing the abuses in AA.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Wanting Accountablity says

    “I need and want to think for myself, make my own decisions. Don’t you? Oh I forgot you’re a guru now. You get to make the decisions for others now. Why would you want to do that? I wouldn’t.

    he he
    Now you are really showing your ignorance. Just what do you think a therapist does?

  • DeConstructor

    he really does try to change the subject JR

    He is not particularly good at it.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris says
    “A.A. Alfie – this is not a recovery site, we only provide those links for informational purposes and do not tell anyone which one they should use. This is a site set up only to discuss and expose those that would be dangerous to newcomers to AA either sexually, financially or mentally, and provide links to alternative resources. Welcome”

    Hang on, that does not ring true at all: Reading your info page it says (and I quote)

    “So, we want to inform people that there are effective evidence-based options.”

    So clearly this forum knows about these “evidence based options” or you couldn’t say “evidence based”. Not unless someone was lying.

    So, two points things:
    – your claim about this “only to discuss and oppose” it not quite true.
    – And as such, what other modalities have been examined to make the claims that the forum does?

  • DeConstructor

    Umm- Alfie
    AA is not an evidence based option.

    It is a faith based option.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Wanting Accountablity says
    “I absolutely will not share any personal info with you. Trying to change the subject again? ”

    And I respect that.

    But, given your desire to tell me what to do for a living etc, please answer this. What is it you think a counsellor/therapist does?

  • Well DeConstructor, this thread is called “A.A. Alfie: The Iron Man of Alcoholics Anonymous” and was started to discuss the abusive people in AA. I said I would stop talking 3rd person for a while, so I need to come up with another plan.

    @Aflie – Do you mind if I use the principals of the prophet Bill Wilson set forth to get people help in Chapter 7 of the “Big Book?”

  • A.A. Alfie

    DeConstructor says

    Umm- Alfie
    AA is not an evidence based option.

    It is a faith based option.

    Wanting Accountablity says

    “A good therapist, let me emphasize a good one. Teaches a client how to think for themselves.”

    Well done, you did some research and found an answer. This was far and away different from your assertion that a therapist tells people what to do, wasn’t it?

    See, I am teaching you how to think for yourself and you didn’t even know it.
    I’m good aren’t I? he he.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Oops, my bad. To the above about EVIDENCE, We were talking about rape, police etc. I think you got lost somewhere.

  • A.A. Alfie – you are very clever. How does that make you feel?

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris says

    Well DeConstructor, this thread is called “A.A. Alfie: The Iron Man of Alcoholics Anonymous” and was started to discuss the abusive people in AA. I said I would stop talking 3rd person for a while, so I need to come up with another plan.

    @Aflie – Do you mind if I use the principals of the prophet Bill Wilson set forth to get people help in Chapter 7 of the “Big Book?”

    Perhaps, but on two conbditions – if that is ok with you.
    1/. Only when you answer my post that said:
    So, two points things:
    – your claim about this “only to discuss and oppose” it not quite true.
    – And as such, what other modalities have been examined to make the claims that the forum does?

    and
    2/. Explain to what end. Cos I don’t remember anything about me in there. And this is my thread you know?
    At any rate, if I was defending the big book it would seem valid to bring it in. I don’t defend the big book as it is basically an historical document based on the writings of a man with some deeply religious convictions. The book, by and large, serves us only a little in practical terms in this day and age.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris says
    “A.A. Alfie – you are very clever. How does that make you feel?”

    Deeply humbled given the compliment comes from you.
    Thank you.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Wanting Accountablity says
    “Nope won’t work we are talking about the abuses that occur in AA., If you continue to change the matter at hand then I have nothing to say to you. Got it”

    Bye now. See you soon I hope.

  • I only went to a very few meetings, in several different venues and I was offered money for sex be an old timer who later told me that AA ‘used to be a good place to pick up a shag’.

    WA; you are so right about a good therapist encouraging thinking for yourself. You have almost certainly read this chapter in the ops. I read it again last night and was struck yet again how many times in the AA literature any variant on self and thinking for oneself is not only ridiculed but portrayed as dangerous.

    http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-us_stupid_drunks.html

    @PBS; I am sure that the vast majority of men in AA are not rapists or predators, but the ones that are will be doing it again and again when the opportunity arises. Since AA provides a neverending supply of vulnerable women seeking help and being asked to trust the oldtimers it is not surprising that it happens again and again.

  • A.A. Alfie – no conditions, I will play as stated in the “Big Book.” You may want to be careful, I know the “Big Book” much better that you. And this thread is about the abusive nature of the members of AA.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris says

    “A.A. Alfie – no conditions, I will play as stated in the “Big Book.” You may want to be careful, I know the “Big Book” much better that you. And this thread is about the abusive nature of the members of AA.”

    Fine, but if you refuse to answer my honest questions, I too have the option of ignoring yours. If you want to go quid pro quo, great! If not. meh. And if you want to choose to return to your old tactics, double meh.
    But I will tell you what it does look like to me, is you are running away from some honest questions.

    btw, I have no doubt you know the big book so well. I don’t. it one tool and an historical duocument. It neithers speaks for me, nor do I defend it.

    So go ahead.

    Now, please tell me:
    – what the reference to the wolfhound is
    – your claim about this “only to discuss and oppose” it not quite true.
    – And as such, what other modalities have been examined to make the claims that the forum does?

    Otherwise I will think your dishonesty is showing through.

    Are you up to it?

  • A.A. Alfie – no conditions, I will play as stated in the “Big Book.”

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris says
    “A.A. Alfie – no conditions, I will play as stated in the “Big Book.”

    As you wish.
    Continued iIntellectual dishonesty noted.

  • Ben Franklin

    Alfie,

    I have already proven you to be a LIAR. Anything you say will be nothing but strawmen from here on out! Strawmen! Strawmen! Big fat overall clad strawmen with goofy smirks on their faces!

    You hear that Alfie: It is the sound of me doing victory laps while high-fiving myself.

  • Slingblade

    I has matches…. 😀

  • causeandeffect

    PSB says:
    “That study never mentions how much time the focus group subjects spent in AA. Did they go to one meeting, 4 or 5, a thousand? Maybe some of those people left after a few meetings and didn’t like AA. Were they counted as those treated by AA?
    They don’t even qualify what they mean by alcoholic. 2 drinks a day?, five? ten?”
    Yes they do. In the Vaillant study, the criterion was hospitalization for detoxification, in most cases numerous times, which is a much better indicator than number of drinks per day. AA meetings were required twice weekly.

  • A.A. Alfie

    “Ben Franklin says Alfie,
    I have already proven you to be a LIAR. Anything you say will be nothing but strawmen from here on out! Strawmen! Strawmen! Big fat overall clad strawmen with goofy smirks on their faces!
    You hear that Alfie: It is the sound of me doing victory laps while high-fiving myself.”

    LOL.. The word “delusional” has been used in association with you already hasn’t it?
    Very very appropriate. he he

  • @Alfie; don’t hang around here. You are quote of the day!

  • A.A. Alfie

    causeandeffect says
    “Yes they do. In the Vaillant study, the criterion was hospitalization for detoxification, in most cases numerous times, which is a much better indicator than number of drinks per day. AA meetings were required twice weekly.”

    Just wondering. But how many meetings per week constitutes AA treatment. It seems to me that if the study were to me accurate, they would only use subjects who followed their treatments as prescribed. Two meetings per week does not constitute the oft heard meeting requirement of 90 meetings in 90 days.

    If we were testing for (say) antibiotics and the prescription called for one pill a day for 30 days, but the subject took 2 pills per week, would this be included in the results? No way!

    What were the results for those that did the prescribed number of meetings?

    Your study is deeply flawed.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Hyacinth says
    @Alfie; don’t hang around here. You are quote of the day!

    Great! More people exposed for my fan base.
    Once again, I am deeply honoured.

  • A.A. Alfie

    It’s even one of my better posts, a good one that helps let go of that dogmatic approach to AA this formum despises so much.

    Again, honoured, delighted and just a bit embarrassed..
    You people really go a bit far sometimes, the warmth and love you show for me can be a little over whelming at times. Again, I am embarrassed.

    Thank you one and all.,

  • Hey A.A. Alfie glad to see you back. I’ve been thinking, and I don’t think that this is the place to talk about this, why don’t we do it in private. If you if your spouse, doctor or rehab doesn’t think that is a good idea, I can talk to them for you.

    BB p.91 “See your man alone, if possible.”
    BB p.90 “If there is any indication that he wants to stop, have a good talk with the
    person most interested in him — usually his wife.”
    BB p.91 “Approach through a doctor or an institution is a better bet.”

  • causeandeffect

    AA Alfie, what else do you know about that study? There’s a lot more to it than I indicated. It just goes on for pages and pages. You don’t even know the conclusion, do you? I bet you’ve never even laid eyes on it. Can you quote it? I can.

  • A.A. Alfie

    “JR Harris says Hey A.A. Alfie glad to see you back. I’ve been thinking, and I don’t think that this is the place to talk about this, why don’t we do it in private”

    Are you 13th stepping me?

  • A.A. Alfie

    causeandeffect says
    “AA Alfie, what else do you know about that study? There’s a lot more to it than I indicated. It just goes on for pages and pages. You don’t even know the conclusion, do you? I bet you’ve never even laid eyes on it. Can you quote it? I can.”

    You sound a bit obsessed by it, a bit like a non-AA member that knows the Big Book inside out. That reveals a level of compulsivity and hate based anger. But I guess you already knew that.

    Anyway, have you a comment about my observations on the inaccuracy of the test? It is badly flawed, but I am surprised that the membership here didn’t pick that up… you know, given their overwhelmingly strong powers of critical thinking. Duh

  • A.A. Alfie – No I wouldn’t do that, I am just trying to help you if you want it. You are at a much higher level of Spirituality than me and I am very impressed. I was just wondering how you your day was going?

    BB p.95 “Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection.”
    BB p.94 “If your talk has been sane, quiet and full of human understanding, you have perhaps made a friend.”
    BB p.95 “Unless your friend wants to talk further about himself, do not wear out your welcome.”
    BB p.96 “Do not be discouraged if your prospect does not respond at once.”

  • A.A. Alfie

    I think you are mistaking me for a practicing alcoholic.
    I love the patronisation though, it feeds into and validates my narcissistic tendencies you previously diagnosed.
    It is confusing for the patient to be confronted with different tools and inconsistent treatments, it undermines any trust and rapport as well, and causes doubts about the therapists’ ability to help the client.

    You really should do a bit more study sonny Jim.

  • A.A. Alfie – I can understand you are upset, but I am here to help you if you want it.

    BB p.95 “This he may do after he gets hurt some more.”
    BB p.96 “We find it a waste of time to keep chasing a man who cannot or will not work with you.”

  • A.A. Alfie

    Before I join your club, could you show me the success rates that AA has in direct comparison to some of those others that I hear about? You know, like SMART etc? I understand that you (JRHarris) know a lot about these things.

  • A.A. Alfie – I am concerned about you, but you owe me no explanations. I just want to to help other people that are suffering. So tell me about how you came to Alcoholics Anonymous.

    BB p.94 “Make it plain he is under no obligation to you, that you hope only that he will try to help other alcoholics when he escapes his own difficulties.”
    BB p.92 “You will soon have your friend admitting he has many, if not all, of the traits of the alcoholic.”

  • MA

    Alfie, you literally dismiss everything. It wouldn’t matter what you were shown about alternatives. I’ve seen a year’s worth of that thread, and it is stunning.

    On another note, have you spent much time in Brisbane? I’ll be there soon.

  • A.A. Alfie

    I’ve dismissed very little, what I do seek is clarification to the obvious flaws I see and then ask appropriate questions. That is what critical thinkers do.
    Can you see the flaw I’ve mentioned in that so called study? It is pretty obvious isn’t it?

  • A.A. Alfie

    eta. Brissy is about 2000km North of me.
    I usually head up to Port Douglas for a short holiday this time of year (Far North Qld), unfortunately I will miss out this year as we are in the process of moving house.

    If you get to Victoria, let me know, my wife and I would be more than happy to take you and yours out for dinner. That goes for everyone here btw. My treat.

    Cheers

  • MA

    No, Alfie. The reason we even quoted that thread is because it’s so stunningly crazy. You aren’t having any sort of rational discussion. And for a year at that. It is amazing. And your characterization of the AA program is just nuts. The readers here have collectively spent been to tens of thousands of meetings, and have hundreds of years in the program. Many for twenty years or longer. We know you are lying and dismissive. It’s just a krazy conversation you are having over there. Insane, really.

  • A.A. Alfie – I am worried about you trying to use technology to prove Spiritual principals, those terms as so technical. So tell me about your early days of drinking. Did it cause any problems with your Spouse? Dis she cause the problems? Are you still together?

    BB p.93 “When dealing with such a person, you had better use everyday language to describe spiritual principles. ”
    BB p.98 “Though his family be at fault in many respects, he should not be concerned about that.”
    BB p.99 “Sometimes it is to the best interests of all concerned that a couple remain apart.”

  • zooromeo

    @MA – Mate we should catch up for a coffee !! Would you like my details ?

  • MA

    Thank you, Alfie. I’m moving there, so maybe you can shoot by next year.

  • MA

    Hey, Zooromeo. Shoot me an email. Send it to FTG, and she’ll forward it to me. I’d love to.

  • Maybe we could all meet at Dudley Street Espresso on Ipswich Road.

  • Swamibedpan

    @Zooromeo and MA. Can I join you for that coffee? I am only an hour down the road in Surfers Paradise?

  • MA

    Sure Swamie. I’ll shoot you an email.

  • A.A. Alfie

    “JR Harris says A.A. Alfie – I am worried about you trying to use technology to prove Spiritual principals, those terms as so technical. So tell me about your early days of drinking. Did it cause any problems with your Spouse? Dis she cause the problems? Are you still together”

    (in character)
    Could you please provide me with those comparisons I asked for before we move on? I have no intention of joining your club until you show me its effectiveness against other treatment options.
    I am quite firm on this and diusclosure of my personal details will follow only when Iyou have my enrollment fees and contracts, OK?
    Take it or leave it

  • A.A. Alfie

    Off to work now.
    ‘Have a great day everyone, I will check in with you later.

  • A.A. Alfie – no conditions, I will play as stated in the “Big Book.” This thread is about the abusive nature of the members of AA.

  • causeandeffect

    AA Alfie said “Your study is deeply flawed.”

    LOL! It’s not my study, but I would agree that part of the conclusion is somewhat flawed. I was merely clearing up some misconceptions that your friend from over there at the “grownups’ table” had since he’s obviously speaking about something he knows nothing about. Nor do you. I guess it’s not a standard *you* hold to know anything about what you are actually commenting on. You really don’t know anything about that study, do you? Don’t get me wrong, you give me way too much credit. I don’t have it memorized, but I do have a link to a number of pages. Or as *you* would call it over on the “grownup’s table” a “linky.” Of course, I won’t be any more forthcoming with my “linky” than you are in, well, everything except juvenile insults. Perhaps I will have to feed this to you in “Teaspoons, Not Buckets.”

    Allow me to demonstrate. Your friend PBS, who demonstrated his ignorance of the study while simultaneously dismissing it, said “They don’t even qualify what they mean by alcoholic. 2 drinks a day?, five? ten?”

    The answer to that would be from the study. “The criteria for diagnosing physiological dependence upon alcohol were that the patients had either required 750 mg or more chlordiazepoxide (Librium) during detoxification or manifested sever withdrawal symptoms during previous detoxifications.”

    See how it’s supposed to work? And if I were to really engage you as a grownup, I’d provide a “linky” as *you* call them. LOL!

  • A.A Alfie

    JR Harris says A.A. Alfie – no conditions, I will play as stated in the “Big Book.” This thread is about the abusive nature of the members of AA.

    Wrong, wrong, wrong.
    No, it is about me, me, me!

    Now if you were an honest poster you would answer the questions about the methodology and success of the other therapies as per this forums aims and goals on its “about” page.
    Can you do that or not?
    Come on smart boy, put up or shut up.

    I dares, ya.
    I double dares ya. 🙂

    Cause and effect.

    There was an awful lot of straw in that post;, you do use a lot of words to say er… well nothing actually. I’m not sure if you expected a response or not, so I will say no more on it for now.

  • SoberPJ

    Posting from work Alfie?

  • A.A Alfie – Hey Alfie. So how does your spouse feel about all of this time your spending on the Internet? I was wondering about your Alexithymia score. Does your spouse know where you scored? I like the “Alexithymically superadjusted” handle you have.

    http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/41/5/385?ijkey=1fb063691a6e8eaf023253522d4a53d0b9f19167

    BB p.99 “The wife should fully understand his new way of life.”

  • A.A Alfie

    About partners.. Have you stopped beating yours? 😉

    I’m glad you like my handle. Have you figured out its meaning?

    How did you score, more importantly how did your partner score? It could explain a lot.

    And, can you answer my questions about your ‘about’ page and the claims on other “evidence” based therapies?

    The double dare is still on mate. Are you up to it? I’m still guessing, no.

  • A.A Alfie – I’d rather just help you. I hear for you if you want to talk about your problems.

    BB p.96 “If you leave such a person alone, he may soon become convinced that he cannot recover by himself.”
    BB p.97 “You may be aiding in his destruction rather than his recovery.”

  • A.A Alfie

    (in character)
    Then I have nothing more to say to you and I would thank you to remove your hand from my lap. Animal!

    (Off character)
    Any chance you can defend/explain this high minded and intellectual forum’s claims around other therapies and their success rates?

    I am starting to get a feel for this forum: It would be an interesting study in group psychology specifically around the area of emotional contagion. Which – at this point anyway – appears to be what it is. The contagion is stirred up through half truths, outright lies and propaganda (or a combination of these). Couple this with intellectually dishonesty and a slightly soft headed group of followers and we have the perfect storm for a hate machine.

    Nice.

    Can you make that my quote of the day please?

  • A.A. Alfie – I just want to help you.

    BB p.92 “If he is alcoholic, he will understand you at once.”

  • SoberPJ

    Still posting on company time Alfie? Kind of dishonest don’t you think?

  • A.A Alfie

    Meh, I’m on my own time today and if I’m not with a client (shrugs).

  • A.A. Alfie – come on, the prophet Bill Wilson was a fraud. The Spiritual vs Religion debate is just false reasoning. I know you are listening to me now. Tell me about some of the things you don’t like about AA. We can work together if you want but you don’t have to.

    BB p.94 “Make it plain he is under no obligation to you, that you hope only that he will try to help other alcoholics when he escapes his own difficulties.”

    All Gods Children: The Cult Experience – Salvation Or Slavery? Carroll Stoner & Jo Anne Parke

    1. Discredit the figure of authority: the cult leader
    2. Present contradictions (ideology versus reality): “How can he preach love when he exploits people?” is an example.
    3. The breaking point: When a subject begins to listen to the deprogrammer; when reality begins to take precedence over ideology.
    4. Self-expression: When the subject begins to open up and voice gripes against the cult.
    5. Identification and transference: when the subject begins to identify with the deprogrammers, starts to think of him- or herself as an opponent of the cult rather than a member of it.

  • A.A. Alfie

    These things have nothing to do with me, please stay on topic.

    But seriously:
    Can you respond to my question on the “about” page please? I would genuinely like to know what the results are. I have many clients who do not want AA, hate SMART just as much, cannot afford long terms psychotherapy/counselling etc etc. If there are other therapies and groups that I am unaware of I would sincerely like to know what they are.

    Isn’t that what the spirit of this forum is really about? I would have hoped so. You have an ideal chance to prove me wrong about this place and work together (as you say).

    If you personally don’t know the answers, maybe you can escalate to the people that control/manage the site. Someone wrote that piece, what were they referring to?

    I hope you appreciate that I am being quite sincere here. No tricks, no games, just a sincere desire to show people a full range of options.

  • MikeAugustine

    @alfie. Things that I have found to work as alternatives to AA:
    – pursuing hobbies
    – pursuing a degre
    – volunteering
    – connecting more with family & friends

    AA meetings became problematic for me over the years as more and more felons, mentally ill people and assorted low class types were being referred to the meetings. I simply no longer felt safe or comfortable there.

  • A.A. Alfie

    You sound like a snob. 🙂

    But I will admit that it sounds like a sad state of affairs if your description is accurate and as widespread as you seem to suggest.
    Your problem is not really with AA though; it is with the judiciary isn’t it?
    That said, AA has made a rod for its own back by having such an open door policy.

    The sooner the court system and politicians take responsibility for the rehabilitation and/or punishment of your offenders the better off AA will be.
    We can only hope that the incorrect cries that ‘AA-is-s-religion-and-it-contravenes-the-bill-of-rights’ (or whatever) are responded to and AA can get back to helping those that actually want help.

    And please get your hand out of my blouse.

  • MikeAugustine

    Other alternatives:
    – CBT
    – St Johns Wort
    – comedy
    – exercise

  • MikeAugustine

    Still other alternatives:
    – dietary changes
    – growing older
    – reading
    – caring for a pet
    – walking

  • A.A. Alfie

    I know a quite a lot about CBT. And those others are nice but I’m not sure they have yet to be tested. Can you provide me with their efficacy results please?

    Keep em coming though.

    And your tongue doesn’t live there, thank you.

  • MikeAugustine

    – learn a new language
    – curse less
    – go organic

  • MikeAugustine

    – go to work
    – I’m off to work, goodbye

  • A.A. Alfie

    Sorry, but that really was no help at all.
    It’s rather indicative of asking people to assist beyond their capabilities.

    Ah well, I’ll just wait here until someone intelligent turns up.

    If I masturbate am I 13th stepping myself?

  • flannigan

    @AA Alfie
    The most effective way of “treating” alcoholism is to moderate/stop drinking alcohol.
    And “do it yourself” has been found to be just as effective as ANY “treatment” that I am aware of. If I am in error in this, please show me study that states otherwise. Thanks in advance.

  • Ben Franklin

    If I masturbate am I 13th stepping myself?
    And your tongue doesn’t live there, thank you.
    And please get your hand out of my blouse.
    Then I have nothing more to say to you and I would thank you to remove your hand from my lap. Animal!
    About partners.. Have you stopped beating yours? 😉
    Are you 13th stepping me?
    Are you 13th stepping me?
    Are you 13th stepping me?
    Are you 13th stepping me?

    Alfie, you being the super MENSA smart logical thinker who very carefully never stoops to logical fallacies (I am being ironic- look it up) isn’t it kind of amazing why you are pissing on us ants( a term for us used by a rigorously honest stepper that posted here and Lifering and Moderation Management and…) whilst you could be out saving the world with wonderful 12 step calls. Scotland? Oh JD has that covered. I’m sure you could find somewhere.
    But really Alfie, you posting here makes our own case better than we could. You supply more evidence with you senseless, idiotic and downright dipshit juvenile posts. We are not laughing with you we are laughing at you.

  • A.A. Alfie – I am glad that you have finally opened up a little and started to listen to us a little. I am interested in the relationships with the police and court systems that you state does nor exist. Could you explain it to me a little more?

    BB p.93 “Perhaps your story will help him see where he has failed to practice the very precepts he knows so well.”
    BB p.97 “It may mean sharing your money and your home, counseling frantic wives and relatives, innumerable trips to police courts, sanitariums, hospitals, jails and asylums.”
    BB p.97 “Another time you may have to send for the police or an ambulance.”

    All Gods Children: The Cult Experience – Salvation Or Slavery? Carroll Stoner & Jo Anne Parke
    3. The breaking point: When a subject begins to listen to the deprogrammer; when reality begins to take precedence over ideology.

  • MikeAugustine

    a haiku for triple-A


    From way down under
    Spewing his wit and wisdom
    And mostly low blows

  • causeandeffect

    Mike, what wit? What wisdom?

  • MikeAugustine

    Twas sarcasm….

  • A.A. Alfie

    “JR Harris says A.A. Alfie – I am glad that you have finally opened up a little and started to listen to us a little. I am interested in the relationships with the police and court systems that you state does nor exist. Could you explain it to me a little more?”

    Er, where did I state a relationship does not exist???

    Tell me when you have those results too, I can wait (and I’m guessing I have to wait a long time.) It really does reinforce my earlier observations when I said
    “Any chance you can defend/explain this high minded and intellectual forum’s claims around other therapies and their success rates?

    I am starting to get a feel for this forum: It would be an interesting study in group psychology specifically around the area of emotional contagion. Which – at this point anyway – appears to be what it is. The contagion is stirred up through half truths, outright lies and propaganda (or a combination of these). Couple this with intellectually dishonesty and a slightly soft headed group of followers and we have the perfect storm for a hate machine.”

    I’m thinking about starting my own Stinkin-Thinkin-dark-nemesis forum to expose the dishonesty, lack of critical thinking, evidence free, hate filled, group think and borderline moron level discussions that go on here.

    Believe it or not, you could finish this with one post. Show me the evidence that is mentioned on the “about” page. So to up the stakes: back up those comments made and provide the evidence, I will go away forever. That is my solemn promise to you. Get it and I will leave. You have the collective powers of the whole membership here as well as the management. Get it and I leave forever. Get it and prove my assessments of this forum wrong. Get it and validate the goals of the forum. Get it and I am gone.

    BF.I am grinning ear to ear on reading yor post, you really have given me something of a thrill.

    Was the point to that post about trying to embarrass or scare me away? I don’t scare very easily – perhaps you have forgotten; I am IRON MAN ALFIE?

    You can laugh at me or with me, I really don’t give a toss. Why? Because I learned long ago that what other people think of me is none of my business. And my cares around your thoughts of me rate very low indeed.

    But from your post, I see you are more than proficient in schoolyard loser talk. Too bad, but you don’t own the bat and ball here and don’t get to (try and) spoil the game for others. You are however free to leave which is simply a conceding defeat to me. I look forward to adding you to the list of rapidly dwindling contributors to this thread.

    But I do appreciate the MENSA reference. It’s nice when people acknowledge ones strengths (although to be honest, I am not a member but was invited to sit a supervised test by another who was. Frankly I don’t need that sort of validation).

    You guys basically invited me here. And here I am, posting in my very own thread, I still can’t believe it; I feel like the plain looking girl who is pronounced prom queen. Gosh!
    Now you want me to leave? That does seem a bit rude somehow. 😉

    Too bad, I am having far too much fun.

    At any rate, the dare was made, very few of you would debate me at JREF – where the rules are far less to your collective liking, so here I am, on your patch. And I must say (modesty aside) I am running rings around most of you. Candy from baby’s. That said, there are a handful that are quite bright, but they too make the mistake thinking that I am affected by personal attacks, psychology etc. Water off a ducks back.

    So to your thinly veiled demand and school level attempt at psychology that I depart the threas – I think one of your more articulate posters said it succinctly early on in the thread; indicative of the high brow debating and critical thinking that goes on here and in a fashion that I certainly couldn’t emulate, and so few could – when they told me to “Fuck off”.

    Cheers.

  • MA

    “I’m thinking about starting my own Stinkin-Thinkin-dark-nemesis forum to expose the dishonesty, lack of critical thinking, evidence free, hate filled, group think and borderline moron level discussions that go on here.”

    That’s already been done, Alfie. It fizzled out. But we’ll make sure to put a link up on our sidebar if you choose to do it, so keep us informed.

  • Don’t go, Alfie. The only other people who come on here to defend AA are usually incoherent. It is lovely to have a pro-AA person who writes in a way that isn’t painful to read.

  • A.A. Alfie

    MA – will do.

    Hyacinth: Thank you very much, I appreciate it and return my best wishes and compliments to you.
    Great handle by the way. Are you a fan of “Keeping up appearances”?

    Sincerely

  • A.A. Alfie

    Wanting Accountablity says
    Bye Alfie

    Ohhh! (sad) You’re leaving too?

    Another notch on my gun belt.

  • A.A. Alfie – I must say that I am a little bit surprised at you. This thread and website, like AA has real no command structure and we are making no direct claims. I personally am a researcher on Spiritual Abuse, which I believe that Corporate AA in New York is promoting by hiding the Spiritual Bullies in AA with a veil of anonymity. Currently I make it my business to identify these people and make sure that they are reported to the proper authorities, I do the same thing with rapists.

    You do realize that Australia is an island with a limited number of rehabs and the medical community of Australia has procedures to report people of the medical field for ethics violations? Up thread and you will find the links. Say “Hi” to your spouse and employer for me.

    BB p.93 “Perhaps your story will help him see where he has failed to practice the very precepts he knows so well.”

  • MikeAugustine

    @alfie, how come you didn’t say goodbye to me? I even wrote you a poem, and a man crush was not far off….whoops getting back to my you-know-what packing ways.

  • humanspirit

    @A.A. Alfie

    I’m not all that interested in any penis-waving that’s going on here (especially as I don’t possess one).

    What I’m interested in is to hear how anyone feels that the 12-step program, specifically, relates to anyone giving up addictive behaviour. No-one who comes on here to slag people off ever tries to explain this, and I’m not sure why, because surely this is all we’re all interested in. Believe me, if it made any sense and if it really did “work” for alcoholics, then I’d definitely be very open to hearing more about this method.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris says

    “A.A. Alfie – I must say that I am a little bit surprised at you. This thread and website, like AA has real no command structure and we are making no direct claims. ”

    Sure they do. I assume that means you can’t support them.

    “I personally am a researcher on Spiritual Abuse, which I believe that Corporate AA in New York is promoting by hiding the Spiritual Bullies in AA with a veil of anonymity. Currently I make it my business to identify these people and make sure that they are reported to the proper authorities, I do the same thing with rapists. ”

    That’s nice, but relevant to what? This is my thread, we don’t care for your profesison nor much else. Start a JRHarris thread if you want to talk about yourself in this manner.

    Pullease!

    “You do realize that Australia is an island with a limited number of rehabs and the medical community of Australia has procedures to report people of the medical field for ethics violations? Up thread and you will find the links. Say “Hi” to your spouse and employer for me.”

    Australia is a continent mate. It is larger than Europe and nearly as large as the contiguous states of the USA ( Peruse the Asutralia thread at JREF you might just learn something).

    “Mike Augustine says @alfie, how come you didn’t say goodbye to me? I even wrote you a poem, and a man crush was not far off….whoops getting back to my you-know-what packing ways.”

    My sincere apologies. From your post, I had no idea you were considering leaving. Are you?

    At any rate, self esteem comes from within not without, external validation is hollow at best. Look within son, look within.

    humanspirit says @A.A. Alfie I’m not all that interested in any penis-waving that’s going on here (especially as I don’t possess one).

    “What I’m interested in is to hear how anyone feels that the 12-step program, specifically, relates to anyone giving up addictive behaviour. No-one who comes on here to slag people off ever tries to explain this, and I’m not sure why, because surely this is all we’re all interested in. Believe me, if it made any sense and if it really did “work” for alcoholics, then I’d definitely be very open to hearing more about this method.”

    There are some very good questions in there. I wish not to seem like I am dodging because you do appear genuine. Can I ask you a few questions first please? Where do you live? State and county?
    How many AA meetings you have been to? Do you consider yourself an alcoholic? What treatments/therapies have you already tried?

    I need to get at least a little feel for who I am talking to before I can answer you in any detail.
    I would also recommend that if you do attend an AA meeting, you stick with the women. There are occasionally some men around who will try and take advantage of the vulnerable. Sadly it’s true, but that is true also for any cross section of society and AA is not immune.
    I also need to know which hat you want me to wear? i.e. a therapist or an AA member – they are quite different you see?

    Sincerely
    AAA

  • A.A. Alfie – I am surprised at you. What will your friends, spouse and employer say about all of this. You don’t have to explain it to me.

    BB p.94 “Make it plain he is under no obligation to you, that you hope only that he will try to help other alcoholics when he escapes his own difficulties.”

    All Gods Children: The Cult Experience – Salvation Or Slavery? Carroll Stoner & Jo Anne Parke

    1. Discredit the figure of authority: the cult leader
    2. Present contradictions (ideology versus reality): “How can he preach love when he exploits people?” is an example.
    3. The breaking point: When a subject begins to listen to the deprogrammer; when reality begins to take precedence over ideology.
    4. Self-expression: When the subject begins to open up and voice gripes against the cult.
    5. Identification and transference: when the subject begins to identify with the deprogrammers, starts to think of him- or herself as an opponent of the cult rather than a member of it.

  • Alfie, why do you need all that personal information from humanspirit in order to answer her questions about the connection between the 12 Steps and addiction recovery?

  • friendthegirl – that would come from BB p.90 “When you discover a prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous, find out all you can about him.”

    I am sure that no one will mind if I stop quoting the prophet Bill Wilson now. It’s giving me a headache. I am going to use slogans that have been around for thousands of years now. I think it makes more sense and they just fit so perfectly.

    “If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.” – Sun Tzu

  • A.A. Alfie

    There was a Queen song about things biting the dust, wasn’t there?

    Interestingly WA, you have not actually discussed AA with me at all now have you? In fact, from the outset you have pretty much refused to engage with me openly at all, preferring to wave your fist at me from behind the skirts of others.

    He, he. Did you forget how easily I played with you getting you to do some research? That was fun wasn’t it? Boy did I get you good. That must have been humiliating to when JRH even acknowledged my efforts………………………………. Ahhhh, great days indeed, he he.

    You have also threatened not to talk to me again on a number of occasions, yet you keep coming back. Ironic, no?

    You have proven to be both dishonest and a coward. They should make you member of the year here, as you perfectly reflect and represent very nicely all the attributes and values held in such high esteem with this forum.

    That said, I for one will be sorry to see you leave; one can never have too many rabbits.

    Cheers

  • Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him. – Sun Tzu

  • A.A. Alfie

    friendthegirl says Alfie, why do you need all that personal information from humanspirit in order to answer her questions about the connection between the 12 Steps and addiction recovery?

    I believe I explained myself in the post. But to extend it slightly I would say this. Each AA member has their own journey to make, AA is very flexible in application and having just a little knowledge on a persons individual values, experiences and concerns is essential in order to provide an appropriate explanation.

    I also want to know what hat she wants me to wear.

    Now that JRH has found another way to fail in his attempts to rile me, I am hoping he will take up my challenge and explain the “about” page claims.
    I absolutely promise to leave if they can be produced.

    I would be happy play duelling Banjo’s with the worlds great philosphers with him, but frankly I see little point. I have played some of his games before and I find them rather tedious to be honest. It’s just a shame he won’t play the one game I really want, the one about integrity and credibility.

    Ah well.

  • DeConstructor

    Alfie?

    Credibility?

    I asked you a very direct question regarding what page of the DSM IV I could find the word ‘alcoholic’ or the words ‘alcoholics anonymous’

    Since you ‘claim’ to be some type of counselor, while attempting to make a point of the alleged credibility of the AA faith, ignoring the point makes you really look like an AA street evangelist with NO credibility.

  • A.A. Alfie – just told me that we should not be talking about personal matters such as qualifications or what we do for a living. What is up with that? Don’t you you realize that it is hurting your other attempts at getting people to believe that there is nothing wrong with chanting the words of the prophet Bill Wilson on other fronts? All people have to do is up thread on this site, or ask me where the deception is. I will gladly show them. By the way, I believe you have spread yourself too thin and loosing on your other front. New troops have arrived.

  • I guess I’m going to speak for humanspirit (she’ll tell me to shut it or correct me if I get this wrong), and say that there doesn’t seem to be anything in the 12 Steps that actually addresses overcoming addiction. It seems to me that you’re suggesting that it does, but that it does in different ways for different people, so it helps to know the details of a person’s life in order to explain it.

    But, it seems to me that, if there are different ways that the 12 Steps addresses addiction recovery, then humanspirit would be interested in knowing all of these ways, not just the one way that is pertinent to her situation.

    You know, like how would the 12 steps address addiction recovery in someone from Miami, Florida, with a 20 year binge drinking problem who has no clue if he’s an alcoholic or not. 1 year in AA (90 in 90, then an average of 2 meetings a week), 1 year out of AA, never having tried another program.

    How would the 12 Steps differently, but precisely address addiction recovery in someone who’s 25, been drinking destructively since college, and can’t get a grip on it, and considers herself an alcoholic. She’s from Waco, Texas.

    I’d also like to know this. I couldn’t figure out how the 12 Steps addressed addiction in even one instance, but now we learn that it may address addiction in as many different ways as there are people. So, that’s pretty interesting.

    Instead of asking humanspirit to reveal personal details, why don’t we just use some hypothetical situations?

  • A.A. Alfie

    DC. You must have missed my response to you in the first place. I suggested you look up some things like:
    “alcohol abuse” and
    “alcohol dependance”
    Did you? If not, try now. Got them? Great, now start reading.

    JRH I think you are misquoting me (again) rolleyes:).
    Can you please show me the evidence of those other therapies? I can wait.

    FTG: Why are you second guessing the clinician? Are you better qualified? If so, I will happily refer this client to you; it appears you have a rapport already which will serve you both well.
    What therapy(ies) would you suggest and why?

  • DeConstructor

    Well again Alfie that did not answer my question. I wanted a specific page with the instructions and official information from the DSM IV.

    Does your response mean that ‘alcohol abuse’ and ‘alcohol dependence’ is the same thing as ‘alcoholism’?

  • I’d never second guess you, Alfie. Believe me. I though that someone with your experience would be able to effortlessly answer a very general question about your field of expertise.

  • A.A. Alfie – I am not here to run studies on those therapies. I am here to document the Spiritual Abuse by the Spiritual Bullies of Alcoholics Anonymous. You can ask me what the Behavioral Analysis of a Spiritual Bully in Alcoholics Anonymous is like. I have gathered a lot if information on it in the last two days. What do you think of the prophet Bill Wilson?

    The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerely, benevolence, courage and strictness. – Sun Tzu

    All Gods Children: The Cult Experience – Salvation Or Slavery? Carroll Stoner & Jo Anne Parke

    1. Discredit the figure of authority: the cult leader
    2. Present contradictions (ideology versus reality): “How can he preach love when he exploits people?” is an example.
    3. The breaking point: When a subject begins to listen to the deprogrammer; when reality begins to take precedence over ideology.
    4. Self-expression: When the subject begins to open up and voice gripes against the cult.
    5. Identification and transference: when the subject begins to identify with the deprogrammers, starts to think of him- or herself as an opponent of the cult rather than a member of it.

  • Alfie, can you tell me why, if AA is such a successful treatment for alcohol abuse, it has been steadily declining in numbers for the last 15 years?
    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/01/10/aas-own-stats-show-slow-demise/
    Do you need any personal information about my ‘journey’ in order to answer that question?

    You said, of hs, ‘ Each AA member has their own journey to make, AA is very flexible in application and having just a little knowledge on a persons individual values, experiences and concerns is essential in order to provide an appropriate explanation.’

    I don’t think that hs is a member of AA at all so you can try and answer her question now that you know that. 🙂

  • Aw, Hyacinth…

    If I remember correctly, humanspirit is a Real Alcoholic, who tried everything, been in and out of rehab and prison, and has now finally hit her bottom and is willing to do whatever it takes.

    She would like to know how the 12 Steps actually addresses addiction before she gives it a try.

  • Oh, also, she’s from St. Louis, Missouri.

  • A.A. Alfie

    “DeConstructor says Well again Alfie that did not answer my question. I wanted a specific page with the instructions and official information from the DSM IV.”

    Are you on drugs? I said I didn’t have my DSM 1V at home.

    “Does your response mean that ‘alcohol abuse’ and ‘alcohol dependence’ is the same thing as ‘alcoholism’?”

    It means if you want the answer to the question you gave, look up those terms I gave you.
    For mine, I think they are different terms for potentially the same thing, sure. That said, dependence is a lot closer to alcoholism than abuse, but abuse should not be precluded either, or should it?

    “friendthegirl says: I’d never second guess you, Alfie. Believe me. I though that someone with your experience would be able to effortlessly answer a very general question about your field of expertise.”

    Thank you. Now what therapy would you propose for her? I have not recommended AA, yet you seem to think I will. Why is that? I need to know a few things about her before I make any recommendations or even bother going down that line. I also need to know whether she wants me to answer as a member of AA or as a clinician, you might be surprised, but the answers I give could be quite different.

    “JR Harris says A.A. Alfie – I am not here to run studies on those therapies. I am here to document the Spiritual Abuse by the Spiritual Bullies of Alcoholics Anonymous.”

    Then you are asking me about things on which I cannot comment as I have no knowledge of them.

    “What do you think of the prophet Bill Wilson?”

    I don’t know, having ever met him. But he was as flawed as any human being.
    Just curious, but what is this thing with prophet? Did he ever call himself that? I certainly don’t.

    “Hyacinth says Alfie, can you tell me why, if AA is such a successful treatment for alcohol abuse, it has been steadily declining in numbers for the last 15 years?”

    Firstly, where did I say AA was such a scuccesful treatment?
    I really would like to compare it against other treatements but no one here seems willing to cooperate in spite of the things that are said on the “about” pages.
    But to answer your question, I honestly have no idea.

    You said, of hs, ‘ Each AA member has their own journey to make, AA is very flexible in application and having just a little knowledge on a persons individual values, experiences and concerns is essential in order to provide an appropriate explanation.’

    Indeed I did.
    I also asked which hat you would like me to wear. You must have missed that bit.

    “I don’t think that hs is a member of AA at all so you can try and answer her question now that you know that. ”

    I would rather hear it from her first. Fair enough.

  • Hey A.A. Alfie – I am researching Spiritual Abusers and Spiritual Bullies that were members of Straight, Inc that migrated to Australia around 1989. Do you know of any? I just need one lead.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JRH
    Is there any chance you will get those studies for me, after all, you did say the following things:

    JR Harris says @”Hey raysny good to see you again. I see you have found out about our two new posters that are boosting the SEO rating of this site for us so the search engines can find it easier. I sure appreciate it and I am sure that anyone else who is searching the internet for alternatives to AA will also.”
    June 26, 2011, 12:29 am

    So others that come here will be able to readily find alternatives. Which alternatiives exactly and what are their short, medium and long term success rates like?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    ..which was a contradiction (actually it was a furious backpedal) to this:

    @JRH “A.A. Alfie – this is not a recovery site, we only provide those links for informational purposes and do not tell anyone which one they should use. This is a site set up only to discuss and expose those that would be dangerous to newcomers to AA either sexually, financially or mentally, and provide links to alternative resources. Welcome.”
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Then this:
    @ JR Harris “A.A. Alfie (snip)” By the way this thread is about discussing the abuses in AA.
    June 26, 2011, 12:48 am”
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    That’s not quite true is it considering your first comment.
    Nor does it quite gel with the “about” info that includes this:

    [b]“So, we want to inform people that there are effective evidence-based options.”[/b]

    So clearly this forum knows about these “evidence based options” or you couldn’t say “evidence based”. Or was someone lying. Which bit were you lying about?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    I am going to say this clearly and loudly as you seem to have missed it the umpteen times I have mentioned it.
    WHAT ARE THESE EVIDENCE BASED OPTIONS?

    Can anyone help me with this information. Surely it is somewhere, you people and this forum can’t be liars and fanatics? Is it possible? Even credible? That people with such high ideals, motives and morals could be either flagrantly ignorant or flagrantly lie about this.

    You want to pass on the good word, well let’s have it.

    (AAA speaks to self) Can people honestly be this stupid and unable to think for themselves? Amazing.

  • DeConstructor

    Bill W spoke freely of having god talk to him. or maybe it was the LSD. or may it was the bella donna. or maybe it was the syphillis.

    Here is the old guy himself evangelizing about his ‘white light’ experience of having god talk to him.

  • DeConstructor

    And for what it is worth Alfie-

    The Sinclair Method in conjunction with the drug Naltrexone has a verifiable 78% efficacy rate. That has certainly been discussed here, and had you not spent all of your time bloviating about the AA faith perhaps you would have learned that.

    Most evangelists for the AA faith discount the Sinclair Method due to the fact it does not promote AA theology or the AA god. This is truly a shame because it is a very effective method, and if it not for the discouragement of the AA faith and the recovery industry cartel, treatment would be much more effective and less addicted person would die, and less innocent victims of drunk driving incidents would die by persons wrongly convinced they have some incurable brain ”disease’

  • SoberPJ

    Alfie .. you are very well versed in the alternative treatment modalities mentioned on this site. I don’t understand why you insist on playing this game of continually asking for information.

    However, in the spirit of co-operation, I will offer some opinions. I think the Sinclair method and similar combinations of medication and CBT have the most promise. Eventually, these types of approaches, in addition to harm reduction, will dwarf any success the AA faith-healing nonsense can claim. One clarification is necessary here – when I say AA, I mean the gawd-based healing approach that is specifically outlined in the AA corporation produced self-help book, “Alcoholics Anonymous”. I recognize there are benefits to group support that is provided by the local environments that can be known as AA, and I think you agree with that too. My alignment abruptly ends with a diagnosis of a spiritual malady or the only means of assistance for a substance abuse problem is a higher power reaching into a brain and rearranging neurons and synapses to get a result that can be called gawds will.

    Do you believe that a supernatural being reaches into people’s brains and rearranges their neurons and synapses to get them to think and behave differently?

  • causeandeffect

    Alfie, you want to know “WHAT ARE THESE EVIDENCE BASED OPTIONS?” They are the options that are based on evidence. I hope that clarifies things for you.

  • DeConstructor

    Note to board before alfie responds-

    I have noticed on other boards everytime Naltrexone is mentioned steppers accidently ‘confuse’ it antabuse.

    I was on another board battling with a stepper who did that and a pharmacist in the forum stated that he had not even seen antabuse in over 20 years, and refered to the stepper as ‘bonkers’

  • A.A. Alfie

    The studies folks! Where are the studies that we can provide the good people with?
    These are your claims (and I don’t disbelieve them) but you clearly have some faith in them, why? You must have seen the studies and results. Where are they, please do your own homework.

    “Evidence based “was the words used, and as a critical thinker that is what we need. Evidence.

  • A.A. Alfie – I am trying to be nice to you. This is an alternative site to AA. This site is “Muckraking the 12-Step Industry” which AA is a main component of. When I say “I am sure that anyone else who is searching the internet for alternatives to AA will also.” I am not giving any advice on what to use, I am exposing the Spiritual Abuse and Spiritual Bullying by AA members.

    Prophets do not call themselves prophets, I would give you a definition, but you would just give me a slogan induced answer. It also depends upon what language, what year and what source you get the definition from. The “Big Book” was written in 1936 and embodied the definition of “prophet” at that time. I am going to use that definition time period, not what followers of the false prophet Bill Wilson have changed it to and invented slogans for its defense.

    We are on the same side, I want to expose the people who have used the teachings of the prophet Bill Wilson to do harm, which I am sure you would also. Currently I am documenting councilors who migrated to Australia around 1989 that worked for Straight, Inc. The International community wants to punish them and have already tried. Can you give me any leads?

  • DeConstructor
  • causeandeffect

    Darn it, you guys. Alfie doesn’t deserve an answer.

  • SoberPJ

    This will be endless and hopeless. Every study has issues – some more than others. We offer up one of the many studies, he shoots holes in it on some issue(s) – real or imagined. At the end, or whenever he wants, he declares him a winner and us liars and losers. Been there, bought the t-shirt. In the end, just like JD, this skirmish is inconsequential because the deceptive and manipulative faith healing approach of the AA Corporation is is being exposed for what it is and it is in decline. The rate of decline, how far it declines, and what replaces it are the only open questions.

  • SoberPJ

    Alfie .. can you answer? Do you believe that a supernatural being reaches into people’s brains and rearranges their neurons and synapses to get them to think and behave differently?

  • Actually this exchange has has served a very good purpose. Do a search for some of the keywords that this thread has generated in a few days after they are fully indexed. Anybody researching the problems that we have been talking about, the continent we are talking about and the job title we are talking about will find this thread.

  • Ben Franklin

    “But I do appreciate the MENSA reference. It’s nice when people acknowledge ones strengths (although to be honest, I am not a member but was invited to sit a supervised test by another who was. Frankly I don’t need that sort of validation).”

    Uh Alfie, I was being ironic. I told you to look it up. It is in the dictionary by ironman.

  • DeConstructor

    Alfies style reminds me of Gen Norman Scwartzkopf’s summary of Saddam Hussiens abilities.

    “He is neither a strategist nor is he schooled in the operational arts, nor is he a tactician, nor is he a general. Other than that he’s a great military man.”

  • Ben Franklin

    Uh, Alfie as far as being proficient in schoolyard loser talk need I remind you that i was quoting you.

  • @JRH ‘Currently I am documenting councilors who migrated to Australia around 1989 that worked for Straight, Inc. The International community wants to punish them and have already tried. Can you give me any leads’
    Are you really?

    @Archie, have you had time to read some of the essential reading? If you were a bit more au fait with peoples’ experiences with others methods, and peoples’ experiences in AA, you might feel more comfortable. And it would save everyone else having to explain so many things to you. I wouldn’t bother with all the old threads; there are too many of them. Just try and read a bit of the essential reading, and the moments. That’s how I got to know about most of this stuff, not asking for individuals to answer me, individually. If I can help, when you next ask for some information that might be in the essential reading, or elsewhere on this site, I will give you a link, to start you off. 🙂

  • Swamibedpan

    @ JR Harris. I am sure you know this but Sembler ( founder of straight inc ) did not ‘migrate to Australia, he was appointed United States Ambassador here 1989-1993 then later Italy 2001-2005. But that is only according to wikipedia. Are you suggesting that some of his disciples followed him here. Got any names?

  • Ben Franklin

    “Are you on drugs? I said I didn’t have my DSM 1V at home.”

    Uh, Alfie, you are really as stupid as you are acting on this thread. I know the answer to that question and my field of study is not even in “counseling”. Granted, it is a little more intense than getting the Australian equivalent of a CDC, but it is something we went over. I can’t believe you as a “professional” would not know this on the top of your head. You don’t even know what a DSM IV is do you? Better ask that diploma mill for your money back.

  • Swamibedpan

    n 1988 Straight founders Mel Sembler and Joseph Zappala made a spectacle of themselves trying to become ambassadors. Each gave almost identically matching amounts of $126,000 to get George Bush, the father, elected president. [Check out Mel Sembler’s Republican Party political contributions here.]

    Lots more about Sembler here
    http://www.thestraights.com/melsembler/index.htm

  • SoberPJ

    I have watched that video of Bill W recalling his white light experience several times. There are two main interesting things to me –

    1. It was a nearly identical story to the one of his grandfathers conversion experience. Is that a coincidence? Are these experiences genetic, or is it simply a lie?

    2. Speaking of lies, watch his eyes really closely as he recalls the event.Then read this http://www.humanliedetection.com/Eyepatterns.php . According to that, when he is looking up and to his right, he is not recalling anything, he is constructing it. He is making it up once again. And when he looks straight up and rolls his head back slightly, that is a complete act. He is acting, not telling the truth. Try it yourself. Try looking straight up and talking. It is completely unnatural. The guy was a fake and a liar. And, I’m not even convinced he was sober for that movie.

  • SoberPJ

    Alfie.. give these folks a call and ask them if they have any studies

    http://thelastcallprogram.com/?gclid=CNDHjuOI2KkCFakaQgodgleoOQ

  • A.A. Alfie

    JRH – I know of nobody, I had never even heard of them until you raised it a few moments ago
    ———————————————————————————————————————–
    DC – that wiki link to the sinclair method is inaccurate when compared to the actual study. It is misleading. The sinclair results never mention alcoholics when referring to their test subjects, wiki does. In fact the sinclair method fails in approximately 10% of test cases. They hypothesise that this is due to a genetic factor related to a peciliar form of opioid receptor. More than a little curiously, this 10% is the same number that is estimated of people that have this so called alcoholic gene.
    One little sneaky linky for you here
    http://hamsnetwork.org/sinclair.pdf
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    causeandeffect says “Darn it, you guys. Alfie doesn’t deserve an answer”

    I would have thought a forum dedicated to the education of people who suffer with alcohol and 12 step problems would deserve an answer. Your attitude is interesting to me, could you please elaborate.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    BF- You seem to think that I have memorised pages of the big book and the DSM IV. I am not that obsessive nor am I that punctilliously inclined.
    Perhaps you would you like to ask me the question again, in clear and plain terms?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Could everyone please keep looking for a decent study with the results of the efficacy of various treatments of alcoholics. I thank some of you for the efforts so far but sadly they fall a little short. Keep trying, I’m certain we will get there.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Sober PJ. There are no actual studies that I can locate. Moreover their own website mentions tests haviing been only done on College students with drinking problems (or words to that effect). This does not appear to be a treatment with real efficacy for the treatment of alcoholism at all. It looks rather gimmicky to be honest, but I will be more than happy for you to prove me wrong. Can you get some results on treatment for alcoholics or those with an alcohol dependence (just to keep Ben Franlin’s pedantics for definitions happy). 🙂

    Cheers

  • SoberPJ

    Alfie.. right.. call them and find out .. don’t be lazy … do your own research and report back to us on how it goes…

  • A.A. Alfie – the purpose of this site is “Muckraking the 12-Step Industry” how much more do you need. If you need a study on the Spiritual Abuse or Spiritual Bullying of followers of the false prophet Bill Wilson which is being done in Church Basements that are members of the Catholic, Protestant of Jewish faiths (i.e. Synagogue basements) this is the place to look. We do look at studies on occasion. They are all over the web. Being a candidate for MENSA, why don’t you go to the “grownups table” and pick any of them and debate it there and come back with the results? I see none of the new members of your other sites have not decided to post anything yet. Interesting……….

  • SoberPJ
  • A.A. Alfie

    Hyacinth, that one has been thrown up by Joey McGee before to me and despite his near apoplexic protestations some very simple questions could not be answered. It is devoid of details and is rather odd (to say the least) on many levels.
    For example
    – “Brief interventions” are ranked #1 and are notoriously ineffective long term.
    – Motivational enhancement is listed at #2, yet this supposed treatment is merely a 1 to 4 session analysis of ones drinking with a professional. That is not treatment but an evaluation and to suggest it is a successful form of treatment is laughable. Also ranked at #2 under motivational treatment is this website.
    http://www.drinkerscheckup.com/index.cfm
    And again, this is included as motivational enhancement and is supposed to be effective. Effective at what?
    By the way I have enrolled at that place today using my ‘drinking data’ and details from my lasy years drinking (1998). It was a simple assessment on my drinking habits and some of the effects. They told me I need help. No kidding:) I will let you know what I find out once they email me my registration details.
    – There are no success measures actually listed. i.e. how long did people stay sober after the respective treatments.
    PJ – I will give him a call when you give me his number. In the meantime, some actual test results would be terrific.

    Cheers all

  • MikeAugustine

    @alfie, most people stop on their own. There’s a lot of reasons for this, but being sick and tired of being sick and tired appears to be the main one. If you want to promote a watered down religion as the cure for a so-called disease, be my guest. There will always be room for junk science and lazy theology in the world. There’s a sucker born every minute.

  • http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080602660.html?sub=ARAnybody is free to post that over on the thread with Alfie if you wish.

    “The NIAAA’s 2001–2002 National Epidemiolo­gic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions interviewe­d over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
    “About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment.­”

  • MikeAugustine

    @hya, he’s just going to say that most of those people were merely problem drinkers, etc. At the end of the day we are discussing religion dressed up as science. The true believers are zealots of the AA faith. We’re messing with their fundamental belief systems and chosen lifestyle by posting on a site such as ST.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Thanks Mike. Am I to assume that you don’t have any data to provide.
    ————————————————————————————————————————

    I got my membership details for drinkers checkup and ran through the whole process, it was pretty basic stuff. Once I had been through any number of screens I finally hit paydirt and found the group that backs it:

    http://www.moderation.org/whatisMM.shtml

    Now interestingly (and tragically) the founder of MM actually failed in her own scheme and at AA and killed two people when drunk in 2000. Her name is Audrey Kishline and she rejected AA, started hwe own group, failed there and returned to AA. The meetings are few and far between and obtaining success rates for them would seem (on the surface anyway) more hidden than AA.

    Moreover, the things I did find was that this group seems primarily targeted to binge or heavy drinkers rather than alcoholics. For mine there is a difference.

    They have steps too!
    1. Attend meetings or on-line groups and learn about the program of Moderation Management.
    2. Abstain from alcoholic beverages for 30 days and complete steps three through six during this time.
    3. Examine how drinking has affected your life.
    4. Write down your life priorities.
    5. Take a look at how much, how often, and under what circumstances you had been drinking.
    6. Learn the MM guidelines and limits for moderate drinking.
    7. Set moderate drinking limits and start weekly “small steps” toward balance and moderation in other areas of your life.
    8. Review your progress and update your goals.
    9. Continue to make positive lifestyle changes and attend meetings whenever you need ongoing support or would like to help newcomers.
    In short, they are a group that advocates and tries to teach controlled drinking. For the died in the wool alcoholic, 30 days abstinence will not cut it.
    Another interesting point is that this #2, says it doesn’t work for everyone and if moderation does not work then one of the following abstinent based support groups are suggested:
    · Alcoholics Anonymous.
    · Secular Organization for Sobriety.
    · SMART Recovery.
    · Women for Sobriety.

    So (and I am sincere) thank you Hyacinth for the behaviour therapy link, it was interesting and educational for me to find another service and delve a bit further.
    This group (MM) was actually included its #2 on the rankings.
    Unfortunately they do not appear to have groups in Australia.

    And as I pointed out earlier that behavioral therapy study is amazingly flawed and inconclusive.

    Sp let’s keep trying guys, I need a list of places and their effectiveness so I no longer need to send people to AA.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Thanks again Hyacinth: I read the article and can agree with much of it. There needs to be far more money invested and alternatives found.
    The writer finishes with this which is almost precisely where I have been coming from since I got here. But what are the alternatives? He is quite big on veiled AA bash, but low on other modalities. Until we have alternatives it is sad (for some) that AA remains an important option. But until there are more options and something that will replace or enhance it, it is the biggest game in town.

    “Alcoholism is an illness. But although those in the rehab business sometimes use that word, the 12-step approach they advocate is weak medicine. When any other illness causes great suffering, our society devotes time and money and effort to studying it and to developing treatments that are empirically found to work.

    Alcoholism and drug addiction should be no exception. Recent advances in neuroscience have led to a greater understanding of how alcohol and other drugs affect the brain. They have, in turn, allowed medical researchers, myself included, to begin to approach alcohol dependence as we would any other disease: by searching for effective medicine.”

    A few things:

    “Alcohol is an illness” .
    I thought you guys said it wasn’t. He seems pretty sure of himself

    And again.. Where are the alternatives and the effective and practical advancements that he sees. They appear to be somewhere in the future.

    Finally, it is all well and good to hold AAs poor retention and success rates up to the light, but they mean absolutely zero unless they are compared with other treatment options.

    Where are the alternatives?
    Where are the studies?
    Where is the evidence?

  • DeConstructor

    It is really a tragedy Alfie that you cannot read.

    First of all in your response to me regardiing the Sinclair Method you claim a 10% failure rate? While recommending AA?

    I detest AA slogans, their concocted terms, and convenient fixing of the facts to promote their faith, however I must borrow one of them in your case because you do exhibit symptoms of a ‘wet brain’

    You may get some responses on the Audrey Kischlane thing.

    Get your facts straight. Audrey Kischlane famously returned to AA BEFORE the tragic incident, a fact that AA promoters conveniently forget whenever they can- in yet another example of rigorous honesty. Some of us blame AA, through the misinformation they promote, for causing people to binge drink. I blame AA for the deaths of her victims.

    This behavior is documented in the Brandsma Study and also documented in the Ditman Study.

    It is always the worst case scenario for people to drink while under the influence of the AA faith.

  • MikeAugustine

    Nice try at milieu control, alfie. I don’t have to provide you anything. If you felt we were like-minded people then you would accept anything I say. I have a lot of experience with your type. But please, keep coming back, it works…oh never mind.

  • A.A. Alfie

    “DeConstructor says First of all in your response to me regardiing the Sinclair Method you claim a 10% failure rate? While recommending AA? ”

    Is the failure rate I quoted incorrect? Did I misread something?
    Did you read that link I gave you? Seems not.
    As to AA, where did I recommend AA in that post? That appears to be an outright lie.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    “I detest AA slogans, their concocted terms, and convenient fixing of the facts to promote their faith, however I must borrow one of them in your case because you do exhibit symptoms of a ‘wet brain’”

    He he. I prefer the term Korsakoffs-Warnicke syndrome thank you.
    I think it is important to be politically correct when discussing people’s issues, don’t you? It would be like me calling you a stark raving bloody idiot, when really you suffer from global intellectual disability.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    “You may get some responses on the Audrey Kischlane thing.”
    Great, I look forward to learning more, I had never heard of her before today.
    ———————————————————————————————————————–
    “Get your facts straight. Audrey Kischlane famously returned to AA BEFORE the tragic incident”
    Did I say something different. You really do see only what you want to see don’t you?
    ———————————————————————————————————————–
    “I blame AA for the deaths of her victims.”

    I’m glad you aren’t a judge.
    I see what you mean though. Her better therapy didn’t work, AA didn’t work for her either. So AA stalked her, AA took her to the pub, AA hog tied her, AA placed her in her car, AA lined her up AA and sent her careening into the other vehicle. Probably in a deliberate attempt to belittle her in the eyes of the public.

    I reckon that description of you above might be pretty close to correct.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    “This behavior is documented in the Brandsma Study and also documented in the Ditman Study.
    It is always the worst case scenario for people to drink while under the influence of the AA faith.”

    Of course. She had no choice because she was in the evil clutches of AA.
    Isn’t it interesting that you scream that AA doesn’t work and mind control wont stop people drinking etc. But you claim this very same mind control makes people binge and drink more.
    With all this mind control going on one wonders how come the success rates aren’t better?
    Quite the conundrum isn’t it?

    Anyway, where are the studies, alternatives and evidence?

  • Alfie sez,

    “friendthegirl says: I’d never second guess you, Alfie. Believe me. I though that someone with your experience would be able to effortlessly answer a very general question about your field of expertise.”

    Thank you. Now what therapy would you propose for her? I have not recommended AA, yet you seem to think I will. Why is that? I need to know a few things about her before I make any recommendations or even bother going down that line. I also need to know whether she wants me to answer as a member of AA or as a clinician, you might be surprised, but the answers I give could be quite different.

    Oh dear, I’m sure it was that humanspirit wasn’t clear and that I further mangled her question. How on earth you got the idea that she was seeking advice or recommendations from you… Well, nevermind. What we’re asking is, specifically:

    “In what way do the 12 Steps address addiction and provide a basis for overcoming alcoholism?”

    This is just a general question about your field of expertise (and the specific approach after which you named yourself) . If it helps you focus, you can pretend that you are explaining this to someone whom you find to be a good fit for AA.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Thanks again Mike. I assume you are still researching? If not, why are you here? Do you think you (of all people) will crack me. Hilarious.

    You seem to be powerless over your attraction to me, you know you will get hurt again, ridiculed again and yet here you are. You have no impact over your object of worship, in fact it is totally ambivalent to your existence and yet you are powerless under its spell.
    It sounds like an addiction to me.
    Perhaps we should start an AAAlfie 12 step group for Mike et al.

    he he.

    This is too much fun.

  • MikeAugustine

    Weird, mr aa also said I was attracted to him.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Well you do keep trying to slide your hand up my skirt. What is one to think?

  • MikeAugustine

    You sound almost exactly like mr aa. Are you part of that ‘extravagant challenges’ movement that never panned out? The true believer touting that snake oil threatened me with physical violence after I compared his musings to something one would hear on Oprah. I know you, alfie.

  • Ben Franklin

    A 10% failure rate implies a 90% success rate. Better than a 95% failure rate.

  • causeandeffect

    Alfie said, ” The sinclair results never mention alcoholics when referring to their test subjects, wiki does.”

    Can you figure out what’s wrong with this statement? And what gene?

    Alfie said, ‘- “Brief interventions” are ranked #1 and are notoriously ineffective long term.’
    Can you substantiate this claim? Where are your studies? Your reasoning on this is fundamentally flawed. Can you figure out what the flaw is? In addition, I’m sure *your* brief interventions are notoriously ineffective long term. That’s because I doubt you do them in any kind of professional manner. You don’t even know where alcoholism is mentioned in the DSM-IV. I’ll give you a hint. It will be on the same page in the DSM-V. I doubt you are any kind of addictions counselor. You should know that off the top of your head. You suffer from global unintellectual dishonesty. How do you stay sober like that?

    Alfie said, “- Motivational enhancement is listed at #2, yet this supposed treatment is merely a 1 to 4 session analysis of ones drinking with a professional. That is not treatment but an evaluation and to suggest it is a successful form of treatment is laughable.”

    Again, can you substantiate your claim? Where are the studies? I know someone who uses motivational enhancement on severely addicted people, and it works very well.

    Can you explain why TSF is ranked 37 out of 48 modalities and AA is ranked 38 out of 48 modalities? Please don’t forget to substantiate your claim. Don’t forget that the Mean Severity of Treatment Population is higher on most of the higher ranked treatments when you answer.

    Alfie said, “Well you do keep trying to slide your hand up my skirt.” I have been for quite some time thinking you behave like a 9 year old girl, but don’t worry, Mike is not a paedophile. Silly girl. How do you ever stay sober with a giant ego like that?

  • MikeAugustine

    Thanks, c&e, unlike many old timers I knew, kids were never my thing. But really, I do feel like I’m back in the 8th grade cafeteria when I come across the likes of mr aa, aaa, and tiny j/mcgowdorg. Remember the soft-core porn on mcgow’s website? Now we’ve got a mensa invitee making lewd innuendos about me. You can’t make this stuff up.

  • causeandeffect

    Well, I suspect the mensa part is made up.

  • Ben Franklin

    Uh, Alfie you have already mentioned the Brandsma study and the Dittman study. Let’s start there. That is our evidence.Go for it.

  • MikeAugustine

    Hopefully the skirt part is made up too. If not, well then, you go girl!

  • causeandeffect

    On second thought, I could see why a mensa member would want to test him considering the stunning degree of Dunning–Kruger effect he exhibits.

  • A.A. Alfie

    “Ben Franklin says A 10% failure rate implies a 90% success rate. Better than a 95% failure rate”

    No argument. But they weren’t treating alcoholically dependant people. We need studies on treating alcohol addiction, not someone who overly imbibes too much.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    C&E – I can easily dismiss the claims made in that report and I made just a coyupole of points to show why I felt it flawed. If you can explain to me why it is accurate, please go ahead. This was not my study, I did not bring it in as evidence.

    Wiki seems to have misused a number of ket terms. The Siclair report does not mention the treatment of alcoholic dependants now does it? Wiki does. There is a massive difference. Can you explain it? I can’t and as such questions arise.

    And will you kindly remove your tongue from my ear?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Ben F: We are talking about effective treatments for alcoholism. These studies say a few things and perhaps they are correct.
    Surely you have the “evidence based” studies for those alternate treatments that do a better job. If you do, please present them, Otherwise, just try and keep up; your straw is impairing the view of the main game.

  • A.A. Alfie – Have a good nights sleep?

  • MikeAugustine

    I’m seriously thinking this thread should be closed. AAA is a obviously a troll extraordinaire. But in his defense, this thread is about him. If it’s closed he’ll have to share his wit elsewhere on the site.

  • DeConstructor

    Hey Alfie-

    What is the difference between an alcoholic, someone who is alcohol dependent, or someone who is a heavy drinker?

  • MA

    Well, we highlighted the guy. So it’s not surprising he would show up here. It wouldn’t be fair shut him off. Of course, nobody has to engage him. He’s been on that thread at JREF for a year and just talks in illogical circles. He’s not gonna change here. It’s a pointless discussion.

  • Hey, I’m really enjoying my conversation with Alfie! I go, “Hey, how do the 12 Step address alcoholism?” and he’s all, “I can’t answer that unless I know what county you live in.” And I’m like, “Wha?” And he says, “I already answered that, obviously, but if you must know, I can’t find my hat.” So, I say, “Don’t worry, you don’t need that, because, really it’s a straightforward question.” He gets all: “Oh ho! You think you’re so smart.” I am sheepish about overstepping my bounds, and repeat my question (“What do the 12 steps have to do with addiction?”), and he goes, “What’s your recommendation? What’s the frequency?”

    Awesome. 🙂

  • MA

    It’s like a fantastic voyage into surreality. A mushroom trip that never ends.

  • A.A. Alfie

    “JR Harris says A.A. Alfie – Have a good nights sleep?”
    Not really I’m afraid. I have a rather nasty flu-type bug that has kept me low for the past 48 hours. In fact I didn’t go to work today or yesterday. I will be in my office tomorrow.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    “MikeAugustine says I’m seriously thinking this thread should be closed. AAA is a obviously a troll extraordinaire. But in his defense, this thread is about him. If it’s closed he’ll have to share his wit elsewhere on the site.”

    Correct, this is my thread, and you are talking loser talk. But thanks for the backhanded compliment. You know…. boundaries are wonderful things to have, when you know them and yourself well, it becomes easier and easier to let in the good and keep out the bad.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    DeConstructor says “Hey Alfie- What is the difference between an alcoholic, someone who is alcohol dependent, or someone who is a heavy drinker?”

    Do you seriously not know. Tch tch.
    Here is a link to help get you started. I simply googled your question and up this popped. Technology today is amazing isn’t it?
    http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/faqs.htm
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    MA says “Well, we highlighted the guy. So it’s not surprising he would show up here. It wouldn’t be fair shut him off. Of course, nobody has to engage him. He’s been on that thread at JREF for a year and just talks in illogical circles. He’s not gonna change here. It’s a pointless discussion.”

    Loser talk.

    I assume you are the same MA that invited me here in the first place, I am eternally grateful.
    But let’s not lose track of the main game here; being to find those “evidence based” therapies that this forum is dedicated to in showing to others. Can you do it?

  • MA

    I can, Alfie. Yes. But let me make something clear that would be obvious to anyone who reads this blog’s tagline. Our purpose is to tear AA a new asshole.

  • A.A. Alfie

    ftg, you are a worthy adversary indeed. Here’s my take – I must admit, I initially thought you were asking for yourself hence my questions, my sincere apologies for my misunderstanding you. To answer your question:
    The AA 12 step fellowship is a maintenance program for alcoholics that may or may not assist people in obtaining and maintaining sobriety. The foundations of recovery are based around spiritual lines which will be unique to the individual. Many will adopt a higher power to assist in this process however it is not compulsory. AA is has many aspects for a member to apply to their own maintenance program including meetings, fellowship, and a rudimentary form of CBT in their step-work to name but a few. Much of AA’s program could be considered ‘diversional therapy’ however the psychosocial aspects should not be denied either.
    AA works for some not for other.

    There, I hope that helps.

    Now, other evidence based therapies please?

  • How many micrograms of LSD or Atropa Belladonna is need to find to attain the correct level of Spiritualism? What is the suggested frequency and recommended dosages of the treatment?

  • A.A. Alfie

    MA says “I can, Alfie. Yes. But let me make something clear that would be obvious to anyone who reads this blog’s tagline. Our purpose is to tear AA a new asshole.”

    Good luck with that.
    This seems to contradict your “about page” when it says “We do not want to destroy Alcoholics Anonymous. We don’t want to remove it as an option for the people who choose it and like it. It should always be a choice.”

    Nice sentiments indeed which – as I say – seem to contradict your own.

    So in the absence of other treatments, especially “evidence based” ones, you are deliberately working to remove a very important option for alcoholics, and ultimately limiting and reducing that choice base.

    How nice!
    It is clear you don’t need a new asshole – you are one.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris says How many micrograms of LSD or Atropa Belladonna is need to find to attain the correct level of Spiritualism? What is the suggested frequency and recommended dosages of the treatment?

    I suggest you check with Timothy Leary.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary

  • A.A. Alfie – have you done your pilgrimage to the AA shrine “Stepping Stones” yet? I was wondering if they had the Ouija board on display that Bill Wilson used to help him attain Spirituality?

  • MikeAugustine

    I can answer for AAA on this one jr. I suggest you check with Linda Blair.

  • MA

    Why are you calling me an asshole? That’s not nice.

    We aren’t looking to get rid of AA. To start with, that would be a little ambitious, and impossible. Besides, I know plenty of AAs who are happy with exactly what it is. That’s fine with me. I’m just changing my little corner of the world by highlighting the nuttiness for people who are doubting the program. I appreciate your help in that.

  • A.A. Alfie – Timothy Leary was post Bill Wilson and was not around when Bill Wilson attained his level of Spirituality. I want original research to understand why someone would start a movement that abdicated praying to any object they can think of as a cure.

    Have you made your pilgrimage to Dr. Bob’s house in Akron, Ohio yet? I was wondering if they had the paddle displayed that he was using to teach his kids Spirituality with?

  • MikeAugustine

    @AAA, let’s be rigorously honest here. Agent Orange must really chap your ass. C’mon, admit it.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris says “A.A. Alfie – Timothy Leary was post Bill Wilson and was not around when Bill Wilson attained his level of Spirituality.”

    Are you saying that Bill Wilson was attaining spirituality through halucinogens prior to Leary coming on the scene? Really?

    Where are those studies?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    MA, I am with you and am all for improvemnt, especially with the Big book Nazi’s, pill dills and fundamental religious nuts. They can od damage. But alarmist accusations of rape, pardophelia , general ad homs and personal attacks on others (my invitation here and the many attacks within as an example) do not help your collective cause. Frankly they make this forum seem like a hate group, not a reform group.

    Your moderate post here gives me some hope, whereas other posts (and posters) do not.

    If one condones and even participates in the groupthink of ‘hate’, you run the very real risk of losing sight of the overall objectives. No?
    So what is it you want this forum to be, a hate group or a reform group?

  • A.A. Alfie

    Mike.
    Do you have any more fruit, or is that it?

    I thought you were leaving?

  • I haven’t been in this thread much, but I’m wondering why this evidence-based therapies questions is such a thing. All evidence-based means is that it’s subject to scientific inquiry and scrutiny, and like anything that is subject to that stuff, it can also change and evolve depending on what research learns. It’s not a mystery that AA does not subject itself to this kind of inquiry and definitely does not evolve. It doesn’t qualify as evidence-based.

    I might have missed too much of this conversation, so I don’t know what’s going on… Are people offering Alfie answers that he is dismissing because they lack Pink Ponies or something?

  • A.A. Alfie – I can see that your writing has improved. It’s probably because of a good nights sleep. You might want to stay away from products containing caffeine for a while. Iced cappuccino has caffeine in it. What do you think of Farmers Union Iced Coffee?

  • A.A. Alfie

    OOH Mike! I forgot to ask.

    Have you got some “evidence based” studies to show me on alcohol dependency treatments?

    No? That’s ok, I can wait. Come back when you’ve got them, ok?
    In the meantime……….

  • A.A. Alfie – Have you checked out the “Akron Intergroup Council of Alcoholics Anonymous” that proudly proclaims Akron, Ohio as the “Birthplace of Alcoholics Anonymous” and was originated in 1935? That would give an extra year to the movement.You should check on that, people may have the dates mixed up.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JRH – I enjoy about two cups of coffee a day and sometimes have a few cans of pepsi max (or similar) during the afternoon. It’s true, like many of us in the western world I do overuse caffeine from time to time. I also like sex, exercise and ice cream. But in the end, if I am not drinking or drugging and have a place like this to come for my spirituality and self esteem I am a mile in front.

    Do you have any vices. Are you still on the turps? Ice? Hammer? Something else? Or are you clean and sober? Perhaps you dabble in other vices like mine?
    What happened to you in AA that made you hate so bad? You are obviously extremely intelligent – like I said earlier, a worthy adversary. But I sense something missing in you, a hole in your spiritual core. Do you know what it is?

  • A.A. Alfie – What is your favorite episode of the World’s Strictest Parents on TV? What did you think of the Carroll Family?

  • A.A. Alfie

    Never been to the states, I honestly don’t get the culture there. I prefer the Pacific Islands, tropical Australia (Kakadu, Darwin, Broome, Port Douglas, The Kimberley) and parts of Europe. Where do you like to go for holidays?

  • A.A. Alfie

    Never seen that show. I honestly dislike reality television.

  • A.A. Alfie – I spend the holidays at AA meetings. Doesn’t everybody?

  • A.A. Alfie

    friendthegirl says I might have missed too much of this conversation, so I don’t know what’s going on… Are people offering Alfie answers that he is dismissing because they lack Pink Ponies or something?

    Thanks FTF. I am asking for the “evidence based” therapies that are referred to in this forum’s “about” page. The forum is supposedly about showing alcoholism sufferers those other treatments, yet no one seems to know anything about them. Nor can anyone provide anything of substance. I have a genuine qestion here and the very few things that have been presented are seriously flawed and I have shown why.

    Do you have something. I would really like to see them.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris says “A.A. Alfie – I spend the holidays at AA meetings. Doesn’t everybody?”

    Too bad. AA teaches people to live oiutside the rooms, seems you haven’t got that part of the message.

    What are your vices?

  • A.A. Alfie – I thought that would be obvious. AA meetings of course!

  • zooromeo

    @AA Alfie..

    Heres a program for people who need to be abstinent from alcohol…

    Just don’t fucking drink, no matter what…

    Instant Sobriety !

  • I definitely do not want to make anyone upset , but when ALfie says, “Frankly they make this forum seem like a hate group, not a reform group,” there is a part of me that agrees. I certainly do not feel likeis up to me–at all, whatesoever–to tell ftg or MA how to run their blog. It’s an amazing blog, and I adore it. I ithnk some of you are just so frickin’ great. I miss Speedy, btw… But at times, I feel like being hateful–even if it truly seems called for–is not the answer. I *really* do not like the personal attacks on AA people’s writing; it seems over snobby and and all about the ego. It feels like a grade school fight to me. It definitely dos not seem directed at the real issue. So, Alfie, I totally disagree on your take on AA–it creeps me out to say the least–but I get what you’re saying to some extent. I think a lot of this is for shock value, to get other AA sriled up. It generates traffic, and we need to get the word out. I am not sure I am 100 percent behind the mode here, but really, I do little esle for this “movement” other than to jump on here to say hi. I dunno, just thinking aloud here.

    and really–maybe this actually is a hate group. I mean, I really frickin’ hate AA. But I really do not wanna make other people upset. I do want them outta AA though.

  • zooromeo

    I dont see ST as a hate group at all.

    I also feel completely justified in attacking the moronic garbage that is written by most members of AA that visit here…

    Many years ago I still tried to be as conciliatory as possible to AA members and their rantings – usually out of guilt – an “old idea” around loyalty if you like.

    I got rid of that guilt and now don’t feel bad telling abusive AA members to go fuck themselves.

  • don’t hold back, now. 🙂 see, i see what you’re saying, too. i just think that alfie’s comment, as i understand this, was plucked out from somewhere else. not here at first is all. i totally get it, but then, well, i kinda do not. i mean, we were all part of that, too, right? we had a bit of alfie in us. i think had i been smeared, like alfie, i would feel a stronger allegiance to aa. and do we really wanna send any1 running back into the roomz? even if they’re already there?

  • I just read this: http://gawker.com/5816217/in-defense-of-shit-talking

    (it’s about the evidence-based shit talking)

  • Ben Franklin

    Uh, Alfie,
    I did give you a study showing the effectiveness of alternative treatments. This may be a little over your head-oh, who am I kidding-it is over your head. You kind of have to think about this. The control groups did better than AA. That means the alternate treatment was more effective. So what is the alternate treatment you might ask? Why it is nothing at all, no treatment,no group, no AA. Just plain quitting. It is better to be in the control to stay in control. Get It? I didn’t think so.

  • A.A. Alfie

    zooromeo says @AA Alfie..Heres a program for people who need to be abstinent from alcohol…
    Just don’t fucking drink, no matter what…
    Instant Sobriety !”

    Brilliant!
    Please write to the medical authorities, they have been awaiting your input for a few thousand years. I don’t know how we missed that.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Violet.
    That was very brave of you to say so. I do hope you don’t get burned by the others for your honesty. Time will tell.
    I love disagreeing with people, it is how we learn things, but the abuse is unnecessary. I think I have mentioned before that I will only give as good as I get and rarely throw the first puch.
    Well done you. You have both my admiration and respect.

  • A.A. Alfie – I can see your point. That doesn’t mean that I agree with it. I was wondering what you use for a Higher Power, but then I realized that that would be a violation of your personal spiritual rights and I wouldn’t do that. Looks like clear weather for a few days, what do you do when you aren’t on the computer or at work?

  • A.A. Alfie

    Ben Franklin says “Uh, Alfie, I did give you a study showing the effectiveness of alternative treatments.”

    Really? Which study was that? The Sinclair one? I have no doubt that the sinclair method is more effective in treating alcohol abusers better than AA. But what about those with alcohol dependency. Apples and apples old son, apples and apples.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    Wanting Accountablity says “@viloet And Alfie has been very condescending and somewhat abusive here, how do you handle it when they are abusive?”

    LOL. This entire thread was set up to be abusive towards me personally. Do you want me to turn the other cheek? I make no apologies for giving back as good as I get.

    Grow a pair.

  • hulahoop

    Hula hoop. Why is AA spiritual not religious? Or why do I think AA is spiritual and not religious. There is a difference.
    The simple answer (and fact) is they mean two completely different things don’t they? If you don’t believe me, google “spirituality definitions”, review a few and check what I have said agaist those references. Spirituality does not require a belief in a supernatural power (but it can); religion does – generally speaking. Now I will always concede that the big book, Bill Wilson have their roots firmly in Christianity, however in practice (where I come from anyway) the practical application of AA does not.
    Who and what is a Dr Drew?
    I was accused by Ben F of lying about (not?) being a counsellor, there was a misunderstanding I think. I am a counsellor in addiction (as well as other disciplines). I am not what I think some described as an “AA counsellor”.

    Frankly Alfie, I don’t give a damn what Google has to say about the differences between spirituality and religion. I don’t need a website nor any other source for that information. I asked you what you thought the difference was. Symantics. Word games.

    I read comments from steppers all of the time saying how the people here are hateful, God hating folks. It’s odd to me because when I came here I saw a lot of caring people who truly wanted to share their experiences and to help other people. Kind of like AA only without all of the mind fuck bullshit.

    I don’t care if people go to AA or not. Really. Mostly I want AA to be honest about what they truly are. A religion. And I want insurance companies to stop paying for twelve step rehab. There is a very good article about this on Steven Slate’s website on this and you should read it. I want courts to stop forcing people to attend AA. A court cannot force me to attend a church of a certain religion but yet they can mandate me to the religion of AA because it’s spiritual, not religious. Yet there is a whole lot of praying going on.

    Loopholes. American society is full of them. So is AA. A whole lot of money is being spent and made because of loopholes and lies. Nobody seems to be responsible. And nobody is. Especially the folks at AA….the owners of the rehAAbs…the courts…nobody. American lawyers push their clients in to AA or rehAAb (if they have the means) before the court date to gain that possible get out of jail free card.

    An off duty cop killed a promising future football hero in this neck of the woods. His lawyer had the balls to get on the news last night and say the only thing accountable in this case was alcohol. The future football hero’s family is trying to sue the liquor store that sold the off duty cop the booze.

    A guy in Long Island (Medford), New York walked in to a pharmacy over the weekend and killed four innocent people because his wife was addicted to pills. You can bet your ass both of them will be attending meetings in jail.

    I saw my eighty-something year old grandmother a few weeks a go. She is a bible thumping Christian. She always wants to talk religion. I usually do not challenge her out of respect for her and because she is old. She said to me, “Hula, you believe but you have never experienced….” I thought, “Dammit Grandma, the more you speak, the more you sound EXACTLY like what I heard at AA meetings.”

    Do your thing. Just be willing to truthfully say what it is and to be accountable for it.

  • causeandeffect

    ftg, funny you should mention a pink pony, I was thinking the same thing. Alfie has dismissed the Vaillant study because while the patients were detoxing they didn’t attend 90 meetings in 90 days. He’s also dismissed the Sinclair Method because it fails 10% of the time and because the abstract uses the terms “Alcohol Use Disorders” and “alcohol addiction” rather than alcoholism. He doesn’t know the page in the DSM-IV that refers to alcoholism. When asked what the difference between alcoholism and alcohol dependence is he provided a link that he didn’t bother to read which states:

    “Dependency on alcohol, also known as alcohol addiction and alcoholism4, is a chronic disease. The signs and symptoms of alcohol dependence include—…”

    This is from someone claiming to be a counselor. It’s been quite amazing to watch. And scary.

    @Violet, Alfie is very abusive over on the JCAL site too. His main tactic is to call people liars when they are telling the truth, even when it comes to 13th stepping, etc., because he refuses to look at the evidence they provide. I don’t have the patience and tolerance for bullies that you seem to have. I will bully them back.

    Mike, I’m sure Alfie had never read Orange. He doesn’t have to read things. He already knows everything he will ever want or need to know because AA members told him so. He engages in deliberate, willful ignorance. He didn’t come here to learn anything and no matter how many links you provide, he will leave here not having learned anything.

  • A.A. Alfie

    JR Harris says “A.A. Alfie – I can see your point.”

    Which one?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    “I was wondering what you use for a Higher Power, but then I realized that that would be a violation of your personal spiritual rights and I wouldn’t do that.”

    I am happy to share that, it is an accumulation of things that include nature, fate, a better way of thinking and the AA group as a whole. Please don’t try and pick holes in it; I could not explain it if I tried in any detaisl. Suffice it to say, as an agnostic it is not supernatural.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    Looks like clear weather for a few days, what do you do when you aren’t on the computer or at work?

    Let’s see….

    The steps, meetings, sponsors, sponsoring, self improvement, service, lifestyle balance, loving well, improving self esteem, defining my own spiritual core, education, positive people, apologising, forgiving, smiling, family, hard work, goal setting, rewarding love/sex life, being honest, eating healthily, exercising, meditating, letting go of things I can’t control, self love, holidays, time out, being patient and tolerant (trying anyway he he), listening, letting go of perfection, letting go of selfishness and self pity, reviewing my character defects, compassion, courage, gratitude, study and not drinking.
    Whew.

    What about you?

    How are those studies coming? Are you getting anywhere yet, or have you given up?

  • A.A. Alfie – I have gone to AA, NA and Al-Anon and have used the appropriate words to announce myself when speaking at all of them. By doing that I took the 1st step and admitted that I have a problem with alcohol. I may have just said it to fit in, because the majority of AA members would consider me a “normie.” Does that mean I am an Alcoholic, Real Alcoholic, Dry Drunk or normie? Just like in AA I am not asking you what your Higher Power is, but you can tell me if you want. It seemed to work for you and I may want to pick the same one. I also realize that asking someone that would be considered not very Spiritual.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Wanting Accountablity says “You got me on that Alfie, however I don’t think they did it to be abusive perhaps just debate the issue.”

    If they wanted to debate the issue they could have asked rather thanm try and ridicule me behind my back. I think this is a cop out to be honest.

    So when people try and slap me, I will continue to slap back just as hard, if not harder.

    If people would like to treat me with courtesy and respect, guess what they will get? That’s right, courtesy and respect.
    Can a hate group do that, time will tell. Let’s see what tone the conversation takes from here. I will let you lead. OK?

  • A.A. Alfie

    JRH, just keep going back. 🙂

  • hulahoop

    PS Alfie…Dr. Drew should be called Pastor, Brother, Reverend, whatever Drew because he is touting a faith healing religion called Alcoholics Anonyomous. (Famewhore comes to mind as well.) And so should anyone else who promotes AA in a “professional” capacity.

    By all means, enjoy the ego boost you are receiving here. It won’t be long before it is over.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Hey hulhahoop. I want the judiciary to stop sending criminals to AA too. But your beef is with the courts, not AA.

    The rest of your post was pretty much a hateful rant, confiorming my earlier comments. When you have calmed down we will talk. OK?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    And if C&A actually had a brain, could discern truth from fact, complete a coherent sentence then he would be worth reading.

    Ah well.

    Like I said, the tone of my thread (remember? this is my thread) is now in your collective court.

    Play ball!

  • A.A. Alfie

    That sounds like a threat HLH (do you mind if I call you HLH?), care to back it up?
    Just what are you going to do?

  • A.A. Alfie – have you ever asked anyone what there Higher Power is in order to “try and pick holes in it” to discredit them? That would not be very Spiritual, especially since you just told me not to. How do you determine if someone is an Alcoholic, Real Alcoholic, Dry Drunk or normie?

    I never said that I didn’t go to AA meetings, why would you tell me to go to them if you don’t know if I am an Alcoholic, Real Alcoholic, Dry Drunk or normie?

  • DeConstructor

    Alfie states:

    ‘ I want the judiciary to stop sending criminals to AA too. But your beef is with the courts, not AA’

    Do you think that might have something to do with corporate AA actively and zealously lobbying the courts to send them fresh meat?

    I would post the link but you do not ever read any of them before you go into DENIAL.

  • A.A. Alfie

    WA , what is it you are asking me? I am confused.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    JR Harris says A.A. Alfie – have you ever asked anyone what there Higher Power is in order to “try and pick holes in it” to discredit them?”

    Only one that I can remember, another poster at JREF who is a true enigma, he hates AA but is in the fellowship. Says AA doesn’t work without a HP yet says he has none. He has yet to respond.
    “That would not be very Spiritual, especially since you just told me not to. How do you determine if someone is an Alcoholic, Real Alcoholic, Dry Drunk or normie?”

    I usually don’t and leave that up to the individual. That said it is not difficult to define alcohol dependence is it? Those ones are quite easy.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    I never said that I didn’t go to AA meetings, why would you tell me to go to them if you don’t know if I am an Alcoholic, Real Alcoholic, Dry Drunk or normie?

    Whoosh. Would you like a net?

  • Wanting Accountability. Not giving anyone your phone number is a good idea. Telephones use Signaling System 7 as an operating system to control the two way communication between two or more parties. It automatically runs services in the background such as caller ID, which can be blocked. In North America the area code is controlled by the Numbering Plan Area giving an approximate location the next 3 numbers called break this geographic position down even more. Since he is in Australia a National Access Code will have to be used.

    The exact geographic location by the area code and next 3 digits is within 9000 meters from the central office they are assigned to unless repeaters are used nearly doubling that distance. The presence of repeaters can be determined by analyzing the frequency domain ripple of the circuit.

  • causeandeffect

    Alfie has been provided the link to the official AA pamphlet over on JCAL telling AA members how to promote AA in the courts with the judges, attorneys, probation officers etc. He still denies AA actively seeks out criminals and wants to the place blame on the courts. It’s amazing. He hasn’t come here to learn anything. He doesn’t want to learn anything.

  • hulahoop

    A.A. Alfie says That sounds like a threat HLH (do you mind if I call you HLH?), care to back it up?
    Just what are you going to do?

    Alfie, you may call me whatever you wish. My intent was not to threaten to you, but to let you know some folks (like me) get bored real easily. Fifteen minutes of fame and all of that. You are not saying anything here that has not been spewed by some other stepper before. I think you are taking what you want (not things as they really are…but hey, perception can be reality…especially to the AA members) and leaving the rest. I also think you are twisting my words (which isn’t uncommon by steppers) and trying to make it look like I am threatening you. Slander I think it is called.

    I am not sure if you have read the Orange Papers (www.orange-papers.org) or for your convenience look to the right over there and you will see a link that is kindly provided by the blog owners of this site. On Mr. Orange’s site you will find a very good essay on debating techniques. I am not quite sure what the proper name for what you just tried to do to me is called. I do know I lived with a guy when I was in my early twenties and he was a master of trying to take control of a fight when he was in the wrong and making it look like someone was trying to wrong him.

    Oh, and speaking of him…he used to drink untl the cows came home. LIterally. I spent many a night waiting on him. He drank for years after we split up. One day he stopped on his own. He is a happy, productive person. He has a beer once in a blue moon. We remain very good friends to this day. I am not sure if he outgrew it or just got tired of the hangovers. I can assure you he is not a dry drunk nor does he cling to sobriety time nor meetings. He never went to AA and because of that does not truly know what goes on there.

    Anyway, I invoke the Serenity Prayer here. Among the things I cannot control is how you perceive my words. Among the things I can accept is steppers are a whole different breed. I also accept that I am passionate about my religion as steppIers are for theirs. It looks like we will have to agree to disagree.

    Sorry Alfire, but I am bored with you now. You have nothing I want. You have said nothing different than the other steppers before you. Thanks for stopping by.

  • hulahoop

    DeConstructor says Alfie states:

    ‘ I want the judiciary to stop sending criminals to AA too. But your beef is with the courts, not AA’

    Do you think that might have something to do with corporate AA actively and zealously lobbying the courts to send them fresh meat?

    I would post the link but you do not ever read any of them before you go into DENIAL.

    Shazaam! Decon gets it. Everyone at AA meetings was practically begged to join the “prison fellowship.” As I said before, lawyers urge their not found guily yet clients to go to meetings BEFORE the court date so the lawyers will have something to work with before the accused goes before the judge. AA woos this kind of behavior or protocol.

    Not only that, Gawd only knows how many of the people have been persuaded by AA before the presumed innocent person walks in the courtroom. Your judge, lawyer, professional witness, (and most importantly) jurors might all have some link to AA even if it is merely through the media brainwashing…and you end up being forced in to AA.

    That is not justice. That is called a conflict of interest. Anyone involved with AA should be dismissed (no matter if their experience was good or bad…I would defintely bring up my experience with AA to any possible jury I might be a part of). True justice here in the United States involves an inpartial judge with an impartial jury. People are not getting that now due to nobody asks, the media, and people’s inaccurate perceptions that AA is all good because they do not know any better. AA has a powerful lobby. Check out the AA website.

  • Ben Franklin

    Uh, Alfie,
    That would be the Brandsma study where lay RBT ( rational behavior therapy) did better than AA and the Dittman study where the no therapy control wiped both therapy and AA’s asses. Waiting for your evasive reply and your ad homs.

  • hulahoop

    Laughing. I correct myself. Everyone at AA meetings was practically begged to join the “prison fellowship” as long as they could pass an background check. I find it kind of ironic that a person would be expected to pass such a rigorous background check to fellowship with convicted felons but could be a sponsor with just a raise of a hand at AA meetings. Just sayin’.

  • Ben Franklin

    Uh,Alfie,
    You also came into this thread tossing out ad homs like beads thrown off a Mardi Gras float. I happened to treat you with respect and so did many others until YOU insulted me and those many others. So own it. You earned your disrespect. YOU fired the first shots here. Your target might of been MA but you fired at everyone. Call your sponsor and say 20 3rd step prayers.

  • hulahoop Mostly I want AA to be honest about what they truly are. A religion. And I want insurance companies to stop paying for twelve step rehab. There is a very good article about this on Steven Slate’s website on this and you should read it. I want courts to stop forcing people to attend AA.

    This is so true. And this is what some of us are working on changing. The courts everywhere should not ever send anyone to a public AA meeting. Any rehab that is government funded should not be allowed to force AA dogma on the patients.

    In one FLorida story the judge called AA “sessions” wtf. There are no professionals in AA.

    What is going on with this alfie dude???

  • A.A. Alfie

    Wanting Accountablity says “Alfie–I was 19 yrs old when I was SENT to AA. I was 14 when I was SENT to my 1st TX center. Both times I was TOLD I was an alcoholic. They do it all the time here. Don’t you agree that it is wrong to do that to such a young person?”

    Yes I do.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    hulahoop “Sorry Alfire, but I am bored with you now. You have nothing I want. You have said nothing different than the other steppers before you. Thanks for stopping by.”

    You’re welcome.
    Bye now.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Ben Franklin says: Uh,Alfie, You also came into this thread tossing out ad homs like beads thrown off a Mardi Gras float.

    Yep.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    “I happened to treat you with respect and so did many others until YOU insulted me and those many others. ”

    This wasn’t in your first post to me then?

    “Ben Franklin says AA Alfie does a drive-by.Typical stepper shit. No logic. No evidence. Always an insult. Yawn.
    Alfie, thank you! Drive Through!”
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    So own it. You earned your disrespect. YOU fired the first shots here. Your target might of been MA but you fired at everyone. Call your sponsor and say 20 3rd step prayers.

    Yep, I did. Was that a mistake? It looked to me much like this was a hate forum (my opinion hasn’t changed yet). The animosity towards me was quite obvious before I ever poosted.
    In your second post to me you addressed others and tried to devalue my qualifications.
    Your third post much of the same.
    Fourth, more ad homs, innuendo and half truths.

    Actually I’m calling you on this, you paid me no respect whatsoever. I think you tell porkies mate.

    That said, perhaps I do owe an apology to some, but you are certainly not in that group? If you want a ‘do-over’ (is that what you call it), I am happy to start again. The ball is in your court.

    Cheers.

  • causeandeffect

    Alfie, you certainly haven’t proven you qualifications in the least. Let me ask you this, if you counsel alcoholics in a professional capacity, why are you looking to us to educate you? Why have you not looked into these things before? Why do you dismiss excellent modalities just because you don’t see the word “alcoholic” in them? Why are you being willfully ignorant?

  • zooromeo

    @A.A. Alfie

    As much as you may like to dismiss my statement as false & naive, its not.

    As per the “orange papers” – I think you will find that when people are properly motivated – they will stop, when people have the ambivalence knocked out of them – they will stop. Its ambivalence – conscious or otherwise which prevents people from making that commitment.

    Its like how some people in AA who need a sponsor to keep them honest and behaving appropriately – all they are really doing is placing the burden of responsibility on the sponsor… This allowed them to play all kinds of blame games…

    People who really don’t want to drink… wont drink ! Its not a disease, its a choice.

  • hulahoop

    Hey Massive,
    It does blow me away that a person absolutely HAS TO go through a rigorous background check before they are allowed to fellowship or support group with convicted criminals. I am not sure if it is all FBI with fingerprints and everything. I do know a background check is conducted. But yet any Tom, Dick, Harry, Sherry or Mary, can walk in to an AA meeting, claim sobriety for a period of time, and become a sponsor to some desperate person who truly needs and wants help with no questions asked. To top it all off, AA validates this behavior and encourages it.

    Shit, we could buy drunk junk, sobriety tokens, off of eBay if we were so inclined.

    I don’t know what is going on with this Alfie dude. Maybe I do. The folks here are violating his religion. People tend to get very pissed off when another violates something they strongly believe in. I can truthfully say I know how it feels because that is what I feel AA is doing to what I believe in. AA takes what I believe and places just enough spin on it. Yet they say it is spiritual not religious. That is bullshit and very insulting. To add insult to injury…they try to make me look like the asshole when I question it.

    You keep on doing your good work. I’ll keep on posting. I will also continue to speak to people in person no matter how tired they become of hearing me. Most have no real interest in it…but sometimes they do after I explain the economics to them. Your insurance is paying for this faith healing. Your tax dollars are being spent on religion even though the religious orgranization involved denies being one. RehAAbs, sober houses (homes), bogus mental health care professionals, medicaid, medicare, the criminal justice system, employers who buy in to the myth, all of that.

    We are supposed to have separation of church and state here in America. Why is the justice system supporting faith healing? Why is my insurance company paying for it when they are a MEDICAL insurance company?

    Sorry to rant Masssive. I have no problems with AA as long as it admits it is a religion and is treated as such by the government and is not funded by the courts or insurance companies nor private employers.

  • A.A. Alfie

    causeandeffect says “Alfie, you certainly haven’t proven you qualifications in the least.”

    I wasn’t under the impression I was obligated.
    What do you do for work?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Let me ask you this, if you counsel alcoholics in a professional capacity, why are you looking to us to educate you?

    Because this forum said you could. Duh!
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    “Why have you not looked into these things before? ”

    I have, but things evolve all the time.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    “Why do you dismiss excellent modalities just because you don’t see the word “alcoholic” in them? Why are you being willfully ignorant?”

    No, I am being objective. My clients in rehab and 1:1 are often alcoholics of the most desperate nature. Many do not want AA.
    I can easily treat a heavy drinker with some (say) motivational therapies and techniques; but the died in the wool alky is far different.
    I want more info on that.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Wanting Accountablity says “Alfie if the courts were to stop sending ppl to AA they would members at an even faster rate than it already is.”

    Actually the opposite might happen. No doubt you can support this premise of yours?

    Wanting Accountablity says: “And imo, it is AA’s issue they should be saying that no, we will not allow criminals and the like in our mtgs.”

    The we disagree don’t we. I believe the problem lies with the judiciary. If they had their own programs they would use them. The problem is that the politicians would have to find the money. AAs free service is being taken advantage of and its reputation tarnished. Your government is abdicating responsibility to its constituents and watering down any effectiveness that AA might have.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    zooromeo says @A.A. Alfie “I think you will find that when people are properly motivated – they will stop, when people have the ambivalence knocked out of them – they will stop. Its ambivalence – conscious or otherwise which prevents people from making that commitment.”

    Very good. Rock bottom is rock bottom. Ambivalence is a funny thing though isn’t it? That ability to hold two opposing thoughts at the same time can go on for years.
    ————————————————————————————————————————- “Its like how some people in AA who need a sponsor to keep them honest and behaving appropriately – all they are really doing is placing the burden of responsibility on the sponsor… This allowed them to play all kinds of blame games…”

    That’s not how I work as a sponsor, nor has any sponsor behaved that way with me.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    “People who really don’t want to drink… wont drink ! Its not a disease, its a choice.”

    Quick! Alert (the) WHO and let them know that zooromeo says they have it wrong.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    hulahoop says “That is bullshit and very insulting. To add insult to injury…they try to make me look like the asshole when I question it.”

    I don’t think you need much help frankly. 🙂
    ————————————————————————————————————————-We are supposed to have separation of church and state here in America.

    Again, your issue is with the judiciary.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Why is the justice system supporting faith healing? Why is my insurance company paying for it when they are a MEDICAL insurance company?

    And now the insurance company.
    Tell me, if your butcher is giving you lousy service, do you go and scream at the greengrocer?
    Just wondering.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Wanting Accountablity says “If u talk in circles, put me down of are condescending I will ignore you.”

    Oh dear.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Wanting Accountablity says “Alfie what about attraction rather than promotion, in regard to the legal system. And once again I will say b/c of AA traditions and concepts they should not ALLOW the courts involved to begin with.”

    You must have missed the bits where I said that I too have a big problem with this. People should not be sent to AA from the courts; it is a total abdication of their responsibility to the accused, AA and the public at large. That said, I am not sure that the traditions have been broken.

    Why are you arguing with me on something we agree with. Seems silly to me.

  • Zooromeo

    @alf

    Quick! Alert (the) WHO and let them know that zooromeo says they have it wrong.

    I would happily do that but they are for some reason as equally brainwashed on the subject…

    I would concede my belief on alcoholism NOT being a disease if anyone could provide ben one tiny shred of evidence ! ONE ??

    Come on !!! ONE !?!?!?!?!

    I would like to see anything, whether it be MRI, blood tests, DNA tests, ct scans ANYTHING !!!

    So you got anything apart from anecdotal evidence ??

  • A.A. Alfie

    Yep.

    The WORLD HEALTH AUTHORITY.

    But I do not really want to go down this path. Suffice it to say what some say tomato and some say tomato (he he, that kinda loses something when written).
    The fact is that whether or not it is a disease, MHD, malady, or something else is, not really all that relevant. People have it and it required some medical treatment don’t they?

  • MikeAugustine

    @alfie, you’ve already been provided some references to studies by others here. But that doesn’t matter to you, I think. I personally like the population-based, longitudinal ones myself that show what seems to work for most. And DIY seems to be the answer for most. In other words, people stop when they are sick and tired of being sick and tired.

    But at the end of the day I’m wasting my time talking to you. I might as well be talking capitalism with a communist or rule of law with an anarchist. We have different world views. I however don’t make my living form addiction treatment as you do. That alone weakens your posituon significantly, especially considering the manner in which you conduct yourself online. Shame on you, Alfie.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Ohhh!… I feel really bad.

    Did I mention this earlier?
    What other people think of me is none of my buisiness

    Bye now.

  • Zooromeo

    @alfie

    “whether or not it is a disease, MHD, malady, or something else is, not really all that relevant”

    Omg… This is Everything !!! How can it be irrelevant ? The cause dictates the cure doesn’t it? What if the cause is medical ? Do you treat it with talk therapy ? What if it’s biological? Do you treat it with spirituality ? What if the cause is psychological ? Do you treat it with purely medicine ?

    My point is that “alcoholism” is not a proven disease otherwise it would have something tangible to test for… Which is critical to everything…

    I used to have all the symptoms of alcoholism… The “physical craving, mental obsession and spiritual malady” well.. I do have to say I am persistent but in my case:

    Craving=sugar imbalance
    Obsession=anxiety disorder
    Malady=depression

    I even drink moderately now and have for 7 years since leaving AA and I NEVER used to. I fixed my issues with cbt, medication and time.. Aa failed me after 7.5 years sober whereas the aforementioned things basically gave me long term independence and stability…

  • A.A. Alfie

    So you weren’t and/or didn’t get sober in AA, or am I reading that you relapsed after seven years?

    BTW, My thing about the disease is simple and we are on exactly the same page:
    Causes need to be determined, treatments specified, dianoses undertaken, clients treated etc.
    As it stands, we have no treatments that are foolproof and there is no one treatment that works for everyone. We have a variety of treatmnents around, a mish mash of things and the whole thing is something of a maze to be honest.

    I am glad you found your answer, others have not been so lucky.

    Has anyone located any evidence based therapies yet?

  • A.A. Alfie

    Wanting Accountablity says “Alfie, why would you waste your time dong this?”

    There are a few reasons:
    First – Know thine enemy (I’m kidding). But why would you post here? Honestly?
    Actually I came here initially to see what the fuss was about and check in on my new found fame. I am staying because I’m hopeful of learning something. So far I have nothing of practical value but I am an eternal optimist..
    I have however made some good friends.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Wanting Accountablity says I need to add alfie i dont feel or see that I personalty have been abusive.

    Really? In your first post you actually addressed to me and not others you said “You really seem full of yourself”. If this was not abusive, it was certainly designed to be rude as were many of your other posts.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Wanting Accountablity says i believe u!!

    About what do you believe me?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Wanting Accountablity says “So you admit AA doesn’t work for everyone even if they sincerely try? Even the person that can’t stop drinking,drinks from morning til night?

    Nope. AA does not work for everyone. I have never claimed otherwise.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Wanting Accountablity says But pls Alfred answer the 1st ? first.

    Um????
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Wanting Accountablity says this is lame y does it take him so long to respond?

    Gee can’t a bloke have some dinner and muck around with his family? It’s 9.15pm here.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

  • Zooromeo

    @alfie

    7.5 years of aa

    Steps, meetings, sponsorship the whole kitten caboodle

    Was a very loyal member until it failed me

    Perhaps we agree that it is a complex issue but I can never accept that aa is a solution after experiencing first hand the mental damage cause by subscribing to the philosophy of aa and powerlessness

  • A.A. Alfie

    Howdid AA fail you?

  • MA

    AA can’t fail, but people fail AA.

    Duh!

  • sally

    Hulahoop says

    “any Tom, Dick, Harry, Sherry or Mary, can walk in to an AA meeting, claim sobriety for a period of time, and become a sponsor to some desperate person who truly needs and wants help with no questions asked. To top it all off, AA validates this behavior and encourages it.”

    And those Tom, Dick, and Harry’s can hide behind their anonymity and go back to abuse again, and then a different person again, and again and again.

    Many AA’s dislike the criminals going to AA, but AA CORPORATE LOVES THAT CRIMINALS TO TO AA. They ENCOURAGE it and SOLICITE the COURTS and JAILS for their membership. Then, DO NOTHING at all ABOUT CRIME and ABUSE in AA – just choosing to ignore it. That’s not just irresponsibility, it’s enabling criminals and IT’S CRUEL to victims and potential victims. AA just DOESN’T CARE about individual members, although they try to convince society that they do. That’s another injustice. It is SHAMEFUL.

    Anyone that knows this and continues to support AA breathlessly is a slimy, greedy person.

  • A.A. Alfie

    I honestly don’t get this. Just what are people teaching you over there about this powerlessness thing. Are you guys trying to tell me that AA says you are powerless over everything, forever? That is really messed up.
    Or are you being taught that you are powerless over alcohol, and once you put down the grog you can start to regain power, sanity etc regardless of whether god is thrown in or not?

  • A.A. Alfie

    Thanks Sally.
    What a nice way to tar tens of thousands of decent people with a large wide brush of stupid and narrow mindedness.

    Please leave my thread before I set my minions after you. 🙂

    And stop staring at my crotch!

  • A.A. Alie

    I am in Australia. A bloke is a slang word for man down here.

    Anyway, I am not moving on. I am having far too much fun with my new found friends.

    btw, I know I can be arrogant. I can also be very honest. I treat people the way they treat me. I don’t pull my punches and suffer fools badly.
    But that’s me.

    Cheers.

  • sally

    “What a nice way to tar tens of thousands of decent people with a large wide brush of stupid and narrow mindedness”

    Tens of thousands of decent people know that AA doesn’t do anything about about crime and that AA doesn’t care? And they support AA breathlessly?

    I see right away what you did here. You are trying to make it look as if I insulted every AA member (which isn’t true) in the world by generalizing my comment. That isn’t true. Most members aren’t aware of the facts. Most don’t stay up defending it constantly.

    The decent, tens of thousands of members, that are or become aware of this, either don’t defend AA tirelessly like you or will stop. Many will quit when they find this out.

  • sally

    WA, I still have friends in AA and I care about them. They know where I stand and still care about me. Unfortunately though, we disagree on many things and don’t hang out.

    I hate AA corporate, not most members.

    Alfie, the “copping a feel” and “staring at my crotch” comments are inappropriate.

  • Nice way to tar tens f thousands of decent people with a large

    Sally, (sigh) too bad.
    If you want to come in all guns blazing, making globalised ugly comments then you can expect a few shots back.

    And no, I have not got any condoms with me.

  • sally

    “expect a few shots back” I expected nothing less from you.

    You might as well be saying that you condone criminal behavior.

    If there are tens of thousands of people globally that are aware of crime in AA, and they are aware that AA does nothing about it, and they continuously rant and defend the program -then they are bad people. Under those specific guidlines I pointed up, I think they are slimy greedy people. I don’t think there are tens of thousands of members like that – like you Alfie.

  • sally

    WA, I don’t think that most members are aware of the daily abuse and also that AA doesn’t care and does absolutely nothing about it but try and cover it up. I know that for a long time I wasn’t aware of those things. Not all members realize all of the negativity and might be (probably) brainwashed. They are also most likely very confused. Many of us spent years in the program just trying to take what we wanted and leaving the rest. We weren’t part of the conspiracy, just victims of it….I know what you mean, and I understand you. Btw, my most previous comment was directed toward Alfie. Sorry I didn’t make that clear.

  • Zooromeo

    @alfie I’m an Aussie too -‘got “sober” in Sydney

    “Or are you being taught that you are powerless over alcohol, and once you put down the grog you can start to regain power, sanity etc regardless of whether god is thrown in or not?”

    Unfortunately that is most definitely NOT what is taught in aa. That would be great if empowerment was taugh to be the norm once clearing ones brain from alcohol but what is really taught is dependence- first on aa and then more…

    It’s not what it seems and there is a lot of “accepting I am powerless over everything” dominating the landscape…

    Sadly what you THINK aa is and what is REALLY is are vastly different beasts

  • @ WA and all of you, I just found the original ST blog–Done with AA. Wow and holy fu…. I found my initial post, in March of 2010. You guy were so amazingly helpful. And um, ha!, yeah, WA, guys being creepy to me, were they? Just slightly. did the chicks try to turn this into my fault? Um, kinda!!! That is why I left. I mean, yeah, there were other reasons too, but this was the main reason. And yeah, I feel like many AA members on here try to cover it up. but I also truly think that they believe they will die without AA. When you are in the middle of a thought *that thick* I think there is this stupid switch that gets turned on within you. IF you think you’ll die without A, I think you become nuts. How could you not , after putting up with all of those lunatics, right? I fucking feel badly for most of these people, as I was one of them. I know there is a difference, as I was not one of the predators, and others were the predators. But how fucking fun is it to be an obtuse predator?

  • QUESTION: is JCAL the site MA refers to above? the james randal site–i dunno–from what i saw of it, it seemed like they ere afraid of penn and teller in an almost weird, paranoid way, and that 9/11 conspiracies were definite truth. i only read a bit though. and really, my tolerance comes from –honestly–not reading all of alfie’s posts. i have been sort of skimming this. i am more interested in reading about why people left, as it reminds me of why i frickin’ left. i come on hear to deaden that paranoid ribbon of thought that whispers shit bout “the disease.” PS: Everytime I use all caps I get reminded of ftgs all caps Internet arguing post and stuff Annazed says. Cannot help the all caps; it is like tourettes, it is!

  • mikeblamedenial

    Wanting Accountability, If one ever communicates with any of these personae back-channel, the hack will occur, sooner if not later. I know, as I found out the hard way.

  • @ MA: “AA can’t fail, but people fail AA./Duh!” AHHH, you’re bringing it all back now!!!!!!

  • mikeblamedenial

    Zooromeo says”Sadly what you THINK aa is and what is REALLY is are vastly different beasts”

    In the magical thinking, smoke-and–mirrors of the ever-elusive, ever-changing bait-and-switch fairy tale which is AA, it can be anything and everything to anybody at any time.

  • MikeAugustine

    Hey, there were still street battles raging in berlin in april of 45. Don’t underestimate the power of fanaticism. The bunker ain’t half full yet.

  • mikeblamedenial

    Heck, Mike a quick Google of “Operation Gunrunner” brings that assertion right up to the present.

  • MA

    Alfie, could you change the name in your cache back to “A.A. Alfie”. Thanks.

  • wa, how old were you when yo left aa? how long were you there?

  • sally

    On June 23, 2011, 2:28 pm AA Alfie says:

    “I am a counsellor/therapist in private industry as well as a rehab and a little of my own client base…

    He goes on to say:

    “My standards are substantially higher” (referring to the regulars on ST).

    The following are the sexual comments and innuendos of AA Alfie, made after his claims of prefessionalism:

    “Definitely a micropenis problem” June 24, 2011, 7:56 pm

    “I’m still sticking with obesity and a micropenis” June 24, 2011, 8:55 pm

    “Is it possible you are still using your hand? You seem somehow jealous of people that might be having sex?” June 25, 2011, 10:31 pm

    “I would thank you to remove your hand from my lap. Animal!” June 26, 2011, 8:30 pm

    “And please get your hand out of my blouse” June 27, 2011, 3:51 am

    “And your tongue doesn’t live there, thank you” June 27, 2011, 4:02 am

    “If I masturbate am I 13th stepping myself?” June 27, 2011, 4:17 am
    “Well you do keep trying to slide your hand up my skirt. What is one to think?” June 28, 2011, 4:35 am
    “And will you kindly remove your tongue from my ear?” June 28, 2011, 4:10 pm
    “And stop staring at my crotch!” June 29, 2011, 4:09 am
    “And no, I have not got any condoms with me” June 29, 2011, 4:46 am

    AA Alfie is a disgrace as a professional .

  • Ben Franklin

    “AAs free service is being taken advantage of and its reputation tarnished. Your government is abdicating responsibility to its constituents and watering down any effectiveness that AA might have.”

    Uh, Alfie, this isn’t any problem as AA has no effectiveness. If AA was worried about its reputation it would lobby for this to stop. Right?

  • sally

    I just wanted anyone reading to see what he really is.

  • Ben Franklin

    Uh Alfie, you said:

    “I honestly don’t get this.”

    That is the most honest statement you have made here.

  • Nice way to tar tens f thousands of decent people with a large

    MA says Alfie, could you change the name in your cache back to “A.A. Alfie”. Thanks

    Sorry, but what does this mean?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Thanks Sally for the memories. I laughed and laughed all over again. He he…I do make myself gggle sometimes.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Ben Franklin says “AAs free service is being taken advantage of and its reputation tarnished. Your government is abdicating responsibility to its constituents and watering down any effectiveness that AA might have.”

    Uh, Alfie, this isn’t any problem as AA has no effectiveness. If AA was worried about its reputation it would lobby for this to stop. Right?

    Maybe. Do you not agree that the courts are abdicating responsibility? I would like your country’s government to stop sending people there too. Given AAs traditions, they wouldn’t and coundn’t do it without contravening those traditions and I can’t imagine they will change.
    So the pressure needs to be placed on the government for this practice to stop. They are the ones that send them there, AA simply has an open door policy.

  • A.A..Alfie

    Cancel that MA: I just saw what it is and fixed

  • A.A. Alphie – A MENSA candidate would know how to change their cache back to from “Nice way to tar tens f thousands of decent people with a large” to “A.A. Alphie” unless they were playing mind games, especially since they have already done it once before. Not very Spiritual of you.

    Can you think of any reason that the “Big Book” would be instructing its members to work hand in hand with laws enforcement?

    BB p.89 “Perhaps you are not acquainted with any drinkers who want to recover.”
    BB p.97 “Another time you may have to send for the police or an ambulance.”
    BB p.97 “It may mean sharing your money and your home, counseling frantic wives and relatives, innumerable trips to police courts, sanitariums, hospitals, jails and asylums.”

  • mikeblamedenial

    How does one attain Mensa candidate status?

  • mikeblamedenial – The way you get Mensa candidate status is the same way you become a candidate for status as a Forensic Addictions Councilor, you go to a meeting. It doesn’t mean you are qualified.

  • MikeAugustine

    ….or you take an online test and claim an iq of 140 on Dombeck’s ‘ is aa a cult’ forum.

  • LUCY

    Mike – You have to take and pass a test created by other Mensa members. The test is a combination of intelligence and knowledge mastery.

  • I don’t think you can bring calculators or a Ouija board to help you with your answers when taking a MENSA test. I’m not sure if Bill Wilson would be able to bring a Ouija board to a MENSA test to help him on his rigorous path.

    Ernest Kurtz. Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous. Hazelden Educational Foundation, Center City, MN, 1979. p 136

  • MA

    Hey, Alfie. I see you got suspended at the JREF forum.

    Did you have a serenity meltdown?

    Take out your resentment list and get busy!

  • mikeblamedenial

    Sorry, guys, I was being rhetorical.

  • I don’t believe that it will be stated that way MA. I believe it will be stated something like, “I didn’t get suspended, I just don’t choose to post there anymore.”

  • MikeAugustine

    Sir Mensa of Wannabe got suspended? Who woulda thought?

  • For an example of what the other forum is receiving right now, this an example of what it probably looks like:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/diablosockupdate.jpg

  • A.A Alfie

    LUCY says Mike – You have to take and pass a test created by other Mensa members. The test is a combination of intelligence and knowledge mastery.

    Yep and be in the top 2%.
    All I said was I was “invited”, nothing more, nothing less. I have sat no test and claim nothing except that. 🙂
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    MA says Hey, Alfie. I see you got suspended at the JREF forum. Did you have a serenity meltdown?

    Indeed I did get suspended, I said earlier in this thread that I “had lost it a bit”, but needed to put a member on his ignorant ass.
    I got suspended along with Slingblade, PSB and this forum’s old mate Joey McGee. Joey seems to have gone into hiding off late; licking his wounds no doubt. He really did cop a flaying the poor chap.

    No serenity meltdown but I was certainly as rude and aggressive as I set out to be. I thought you guys would have applauded a bit of rough-and-tumble? At least that’s the inference on the ‘about’ page.

    But I accept the umpires decision and will happliy and uncomplainingly take my punishment.

  • A.A Alphie – The name of this thread you were commenting on was/is “Why do people insist AA is not religious?” Can you just answer why people insist AA is not religious? And then give an evidence based study from an entity that has nothing to do with or generate revenue from the AA as proof?

    That is the only logical next step, and the only way to make sure it will does not contain
    sampling bias. Please provide that evidence based study in a non biased manner and explain it to us.

  • A.A Alfie

    JRH. If you can find me those studies on the “evidence based”‘ therapies, I will find you the studies you want. Fair enough?
    Why I think AA is not religious is simple.
    From my perspective AA is a spiritual program. Spirituality requires nothing supernatural one does not have to have a supernatural hp or god to work the progam.

    Religion is spritual – of course.
    Spiritual does not need religion or deities.

    Can AA be religious? Yep, if you want it to be it can be, but for many agnostics and atheists in the fellowship we work it without religion.

    Hope this makes sense.

  • It makes sense if spiritual means absolutely nothing.

  • A.A Alfie – Wouldn’t you rather have psychological studies on the narcissistic tendencies of the followers of the prophet Bill Wilson instead? I have many studies on that. My specialty at the moment is tracking and documenting the perpetrators of Spiritual Abuse and bringing them to justice.

  • SoberPJ

    Doesn’t the concept of “fate” include a supernatural component ?

  • A.A Alfie

    Ben Bradley says It makes sense if spiritual means absolutely nothing

    So what does spiritual mean. And careful, I might test you.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    SoberPJ says Doesn’t the concept of “fate” include a supernatural component ?

    Not in my dictionary. But why would it?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    JRH – I guess you cant give me those studies on ‘evidence based” therapies. Does that confirm this as a hate group/forum?

  • A.A Alfie – we are on the same side. I don’t understand how you would think this is a “hate group/forum.” You want to help protect AA and its Spiritual principals and so do I. I can tell by your posts about Athiests.

    Would you like to help me with the Intergroup that delisted the Atheist Groups in Canada. I would like to get that Intergroup delisted from AA GSO? They obviously are not very Spiritual and do not deserve the to carry the AA name. It would be good to have a MENSA candidate helping us. I can tell you are very intelligent.

  • Ben Franklin

    Uh, Alfie I have given you some studies which you ignored. Someone on the JREF thread gave you some studies which you ignored. Why don’t you give us studies? Something that proves your beloved AA works.

  • Ben Franklin

    Uh, Alfie, I wonder what you got put in timeout for on JREF for? I know you are going to tell me you got the boot for being nasty. But I bet you got the boot for failure to use logic. You are getting your ass kicked over there. It is almost too much to look at.

  • A.A Alfie is starting to become my friend. I kind of like him. I think he really wants to help me with the problems of Spiritual Abuse in AA. He knows the “Big Book” real well and can be invaluable in my research.

    BB p.95 “Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop; simply lay
    out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection.”
    BB p.94 “If your talk has been sane, quiet and full of human understanding, you have
    perhaps made a friend.”

  • A.A Alfie

    I didn’t ignore those studies Ben, I questioned them and showed why they appeared irrelevant, if you have more to add or wish to refure my observations with some of your own, please go ahead.

    I got put in timeout for ignoring a moderator thread on Bickering; there were quite a few of us doing it and frankly there probably should have been more suspended. But meh; it doesn’t bother me, I will take my punishment without complaint.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-JRH – If this group was dedicated to the improvement of knowledge and helping alcoholics etc find those other options it would not be a hate group.
    Given that this forum offers little but bile and ridicule one can only assume it is a hate group.
    Sadly you do cannot provide the information on “evidence based” options at all, what is one to think?

  • Ben Franklin

    What is one to think? you do that?

  • A.A Alfie – you think the that people discussing was to prevent the rape of vulnerable newcomers at the hand of Spiritual Bullies AA a hate group? I don’t understand, don’t you want to help people follow a rigorous Spiritual path? If you were at an AA meeting and some guy took advantage of someone and raped them, would you not call the police? Are the police a hate group for wanting to stop it? Do you think all people discussing how to prevent rape and the manipulation of Spiritual principals a hate group?

  • A.A Alfie

    JR Harris says A.A Alfie – you think the that people discussing was to prevent the rape of vulnerable newcomers at the hand of Spiritual Bullies AA a hate group?

    Not at all.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    If you were at an AA meeting and some guy took advantage of someone and raped them, would you not call the police?

    Of course.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    Are the police a hate group for wanting to stop it?

    Of course not.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Do you think all people discussing how to prevent rape and the manipulation of Spiritual principals a hate group?

    This one, yes.

    Exactty how many of these rapes have taken place?
    How many victims have reported their rape to the police?
    How many people have been charged with rape?
    Stinkin Thinkin is not the police – concerned citizens, sure but not the police.

    Do not misunderstand me, I am not nor would I ever condone rape. I am simply asking what has taken place and what evidence you have.

  • Alfie, no one knows how many rapes have taken place, in or out of AA. It may have passed you by but many women, having been raped, do not report it, either for fear of not being believed, of being cross-examined in court, because they want to pretend it didn’t happen rather than relive the trauma or any other of many reasons. You can ridicule people on here who want to expose AA but please don’t pretend to be stupid and naive when it comes to the issue of why rapes are not reported. It is an insult too far. I simply do not believe you are that stupid, and I do not know what you get out of pretending to be that stupid. I know many women who have been raped, I have heard of many more, and I do not know a single person who has gone to the police.

    http://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2010/11/mumsnet-asks-if-you-were-raped-would-you-report-it/

    Here are 304 responses from women about the reporting of rapes.
    http://m.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1079273-If-you-were-raped-would-you-

    If you ask questions of such blinding insensitivity and stupidity and think you can preface your stupidity with ‘Do not misunderstand me, I am not nor would I ever condone rape’, then you are ill-equipped to understand the problems in AA.

  • MikeAugustine

    tsk, tsk. Suspended for being overly animated. Impulse control is not high on the list of virtues that most addicts possess. Better get cracking on the 6th and 7th sacraments. Oh sorry, I meant to say steps.

  • A.A..Alfie

    WSS

    I see.
    So these women who have been raped, simply say they have been raped but wish to do no more about it than report it later in anonymous blogs. And we should simply believe them. You have to be kidding, don’t you?
    In no way am I suggesting they are being dishonest, however slandering anyone under these circumstances is very dangerous. I was led to believe that lynching was outlawed over there some time ago.

    If it is true that women still have their sexual history etc exposed in a rape case then that is abominably wrong in my opinion. Moreover, pressure should be brought to bear on the judicary to change the procedures.

    Once again, your (and others) underlying issues seem to be with the courts and politicians, not AA.

    I don’t know how things work in the USA, but over here there is a thing called due process and people cannot be punished for crimes until their charges have been proven.

    You refuse to answer my questions, and with the wave of a hand and suggest I am insensitive to womens issues. You have no clue frankly. I have just come home from work after facilitating a domestic violence support group. I do this each week and would respectfully suggest I am somewhat more in touch with these things than you. So spare me your obscene and offensive insults.

    I will rephrase the questions in an efvfort to offend you less. Perhaps this time you could provide some evidence and honesty rather than insult both my intelligence and motives.

    – Allegedly, how many of these rapes have taken place?
    – Have any victims reported the crime to the police?
    – Has any one faced or faces charges?

    I respectfully await your reply.

  • SoberPJ

    That fate is predetermined. So, determined by who or what? Once alive, the only true, predictable fate without a supernatural being is death. Everything else is the result of random chance and chaos theory. If not random chance and chaos, then it must be predetermined to be a fate. So, again, predetermined by who or what? The concept of fate is a slippery slope for agnostics and atheists and goes back quite a ways http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/The_Fates/the_fates.html . Sometimes people don’t know the basis of what they believe. Like someone including fate in their higher power and not knowing that fate includes the supernatural.

  • A.A..Alfie

    Does fate always need to include the supernatural?

  • A.A..Alfie

    Here’s the definition that fits best with mine. There were three there, and indeed, one that mentioned the supernatural. So whilst I do not discount what you are saying, the supernatural does have to be a prerequisite in the definition of one’s fate.

    http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fate
    [count noun] the course of someone’s life , or the outcome of a situation for someone or something, seen as outside their control:he stared at the faces of the committee, trying to guess his fate

  • MikeAugustine

    @wss, I would go back and read some of the sexually derogatory sexual comments the troll has made before engaging him on the predator issue. He has absolutely no credibility in this regard. Proceed with caution.

  • A.A..Alfie

    Please keep your gaze above my cleavage. Thank you.

    Animals 😉

  • A.A..Alfie – Currently I am looking into the practice of “what is said in AA stays in AA” by people practicing the 12 Steps devised by Bill Wilson. I believe it is wrong and corporate AA is trying to enforce this as a procedure at all AA meetings.

    Recently during what is called the process of a “share” (where a person tells other AA members about things done in their past during Alcoholic periods) numerous crimes of rape and murder have been uncovered and the people have been to hide behind the veil of the Church confidentiality legally given to members of the clergy. AA is Spiritual and not Religious and this appears to be commonly stated by all of its members and in the scripture of the prophet Bill Wilson.

    Currently the Spiritual and Religious members of the Catholic faith are documenting this process and attempting to bring the perpetrators of crimes against their faith and deity to justice. They are documenting it here:

    http://www.bishop-accountability.org/

    Will you help us in the Spiritual path of stopping pedophiles, rapists and murders from being shield by Spiritual principals. They appear to be doing it in Church basements at AA meetings. I believe that you will have full backing by various Religious organizations.

  • MikeAugustine

    Wow, jr, I appreciate your tenacity, but this guy is just one big trip down the rabbit hole.

  • causeandeffect

    Alfie is still refusing to inform us where the word alcoholism is in the DSM-IV. It calls a lot into question, doesn’t it. Yaaaaawn.

    So alfie. you were put in *time out* over at the grownups’ table. That’s what happens when you sling your pureed peas all over the grownups. Don’t worry, alfie, if you’re a good little girl, and you promise real nicely to eat your pureed peas instead of throwing them, maybe somebody will hoist you back up into the high chair at the grownup’s table. In the meantime, you and little Danny can talk baby talk to each other. He’s known for baby talk.

  • causeandeffect

    Silly alfie, the definition you linked to also includes

    “[mass noun] the development of events outside a person’s control, regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power:fate decided his course for him”

    Run along now!

  • SoberPJ

    It’s ok, he is here to learn so evidently being ignorant about the concept of fate is inline with that. Gawd is everything, or he is nothing. What is our chioce to be? If some fate is guided by the supernatural how do you determine which events are not? It’s a slippery slope. Be careful. Entire belief systems can be shattered with reality. And your continued sexual references during discussions of rape and abuse have removed every last drop of credibilty I have afforded you. You had some currency with me, but no longer. You are clearly insensitive, stupid and sick. I am completely out of this discussion with you.

  • MikeAugustine

    @spj, you’re a far wiser person than I. For some reason I feel there’s hope for the guy. It’s something about that 12 year sobriety mark where doubt and dogma are at odds with one another. I think alfie is approaching that turning point.

  • DeConstructor

    Alfie-

    Is your real name Gary? And why do you hate Danny Boneduce?

  • When I was 13 stepped in AA, by men who tried to hide their indecencies behind their serenity, new found morality and spirituality – they behaved slightly similar to the way Alfie is.

    First were the blatant sexual comments, touches, and solicitation for dates (and sex). Then, when I refused and scorned him (actually them) for his inappropriate behavior, I got the the standard “Who me? I was just kidding around” (kind of like Alfie’s little “smiley’s” after his own remarks). Along with that came a wink -the last ditch effort and the “this is just between you and me” signal.

    Alfie is trying lighten things up with his little sexual innuendo’s – but there is also more to it. He is mocking us with the comments, implying that 13 stepping is a big joke.

    Although harassment is an important issue in itself, rape is of course a bigger deal, even he won’t deny it. But Alfie needs the proof. And if you show him some, he wants more. And then he will want more. And then he’ll try to tear it up piece by piece like a defensive attorney. If he can’t, he will fall back on his stubborn declaration that it isn’t AA’s fault.

    Forgetting about fault just temporarily, let’s just look at who can help the most to ensure safety and try to prevent crime (it is not the job of the police to do this – they can just punish the perp after the fact). AA is best equipped, and perfectly able, to take the preventive measures. And they have a moral and ethical responsibility to do so. They know about it and do nothing but ignore it. They don’t “care” about member saftety, but they do care about the liability. That’s why they do nothing.

  • MikeAugustine

    @sally, brilliant synopsis of the issue at hand. This guy is following the tony j/mr aa playbook to the tee. It’s so predictable. And pathetic.

  • causeandeffect

    He’s not here to learn anything. I’m entirely bored with this thread too. What a huge waste of my time. As Mike said, predictable.

  • Yes, he’s a yawner. It served a good purpose though I think. People come and see some truth….Haha, the “predictible and pathetic aa playbook”. I like that Mike. So true.

  • Ben Franklin

    Yes Mike ,the AA Troll playbook. They give those out to angry oldtimers at sobriety birthdays . Funny how it always has the same plays ran over and over again. One of the plays is just ignore the evidence. Alfie does this to a “T”.
    Along the same lines, did you ever notice how all these AA rabid step attack dogs are all supposedly MENSA candidates. Tony J and Mcgowdog bragged about their “genius IQs”. Alfie was asked to sit for the exam. Maybe that is on of the plays listed in the playbook. I never was impressed enough with their logic or intelligent writings to believe any of it.

  • Ben Franklin

    Uh, Alfie, take your !@#$%^&* out of that strawman’s *&^%$%%$#.

    teehee,wink,nudge,nudge.

  • MikeAugustine

    Ja, Ben, it’s amazing that such geniuses would support a program that is so blatantly anti-intellectually. But hey, if a sociopath from alaska can be taken seriously, then I guess anything is possible.

  • A.A..Alfie

    causeandeffect says “Silly alfie, the definition you linked to also includes
    “[mass noun] the development of events outside a person’s control, regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power:fate decided his course for him”

    LOL. I said as much in my post, twit.
    You may be unaware, but words often have more than one narrowly defined definition.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Bye-bye Sober PJ
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Sally say “Alfie is trying lighten things up with his little sexual innuendo’s – but there is also more to it.

    Correct. Curiously, I find humour in almost anything.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    “He is mocking us with the comments, implying that 13 stepping is a big joke”

    Wrong, I am mocking stupid.
    13th stepping is unacceptable.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Sally, no proof has been provided in spite of many claims made here. Anonymous internet posts do not constitute proof where I come from, nor do I suspect where you are.

    And my eyes are not down there, please look at my face.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Bye-bye cause and effect
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    BF, If you had I clue, I might understand what you are driving at.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    So folks, Not much here this morning but the usual personal attacks, generalisations and dishonesty. A couple more backing away from the thread because the requests for actual evidence are too hard to find. Perhaps they are a littled sickened by the forum’s blatant dishonesty, perhaps they are just cowards? Who knows? At any rate that is a few less left on our research team.

    So far we have no evidence on anything, yet some of you wish to claim the intellectual and moral highground. Incredible!

    But I am prepared to wait. This is my thread after all and I’m not going anywhere just yet. In fact, my red card at JREF gives me just a bit more time to spend here with you friendly folk.

    So, with the weekend near, I would expect all of you to be in a positon to seek those difficult to locate “evidence based” tests on alcoholism treatments, as well as those rape statistics.

    Surely that’s not too much to ask from you intellectual and moral high-brows is it? Some real proof to support your nebulous claims?

    Back to work troops; we need that evidence!

    Cheers.

  • Ben Franklin

    Time for this thread to die.

  • A.A..Alfie

    I assume that means you have nothing to show me.

    How brave, someone asks for evidence of the hate filled claims from this forum and you want to just close down down the discussion.

    Cowardice in the extreme.

    Come on tough guys, where’s the evidence?
    We need some “evidence based” studies of other options to treat alcoholics and
    Statistics on rape crime within AA.

    Surely none of you are so stupid as to simply believe the something some anonymous nobody has told you?
    Surely none of you lack such a basic level of curiosity to form simple questions and attend to even basic verification of these thingss that are told to you?
    Surely you aren’t just lying because of your misplaced hate?
    Tell me it isn’t so, in fact, don’t tell me……

    Show me the evidence!

  • MA

    I would suggest instead of feeding Alphie, to hit that crazy JREF to see how he deals with pesky things like evidence. There’s a whole year’s worth delusion to chew on.

  • It seems that the whackaloon niche left open by Alfie’s suspension on JREF is being filled by a formidable force. Nature abhors a vacuum!

  • How come I sense the “he said, she said, they said, he said, we said” syndrome coming on………..

  • MikeAugustine

    Ain’t it grand the wind stopped blowin?

  • A.A..Alfie

    Gee, you guys still have nothing?

    On returning home tonight after a day working (group presentations today) and a fantastic dinner out with my wife and some frends at my club, you would have had something for me.

    But no?!

    Ah well. I can wait.

    Strangely enough I have been waiting at JREF for 12 months, and they haven’t come up with anything either with regard to what you lot claim as “evidence based” therapies. I was even having this very discussion with another member in the hours prior to my unfortunate suspension.

    Frankly, the people at JREF are far more intelligent than the ‘stinkin thinkin’ forum members; let’s face it, you drop your ‘g’s which is always an indication of an extremely poor formal education and equally poor or possibly even worse parenting. But what should we expect when the American government abandons their responsibility to the wider community in areas like education, the judicary and general governance. Sadly the bottom feeders within that community get hit first and hardest.

    So, while I am disappointed that none of you have yet to locate the evidence many of you (and the forum) clearly state is there, I really should not be surprised given the above.

    That said, I will not be swayed in my optimism and remain hopeful that while your collective intelligence is lacking, sheer determination will see the results appear.

    Go team!

  • MA

    Oh, he still blows.

  • MikeAugustine

    …way down under

  • A.A..Alfie

    Ohhh – disappointed; you guys still have nothing.
    And no brains either

    See my above post.

    Bed time now. Let’s see if you have something by tomorrow. I can wait, I am ever the optimist.

  • ez

    Triple A said “The fact is that whether or not it is a disease, MHD, malady, or something else is, not really all that relevant. People have it and it required some medical treatment don’t they?”

    My question is, how do you confuse the 12 steps with medical treatment? Should the slogan now become ‘it is a medical program, not a spiritua programl or a religous program’?

  • A.A..Alfie

    ez says Triple A said “The fact is that whether or not it is a disease, MHD, malady, or something else is, not really all that relevant. People have it and it required some medical treatment don’t they?”

    My question is, how do you confuse the 12 steps with medical treatment? Should the slogan now become ‘it is a medical program, not a spiritua programl or a religous program’?

    I don’t confuse them.
    Don’t agree people often need medical treatment for their alcoholism?

    But I am waiting on other things at the moment: Have you some evidence on other treatments and their efficacy in treating alcoholics? While you are at it, you could also find those rape statistics that people here are having such a hard time trying to find?

    Nighty night.

  • easy rider

    You keep talking about how great the JREF is, how horrible ST is, they don’t think you’re great, you were suspended for ignoring multiple moderator warnings, 3 days. The others got 24 hours for ignoring a single warning? Why the difference? Your attack piece on ST! The one about animals and dolts? Why did you post that minutes after the mod warning, were you trying to get suspended? No, you were stalking the thread looking for attention. They removed it from the thread and suspended you extra! And then you try to justify it by saying “They deserved it”. Oops, that’s never been an acceptable excuse at JREF, you’re a poor ambassador for the foundation.

  • Ben Franklin

    I gave you the Brandsma and Dittman studies and you ignored them. You only want to insult and play on you terms. Sorry, when you stop acting like a child we will have adult discussions with you. Go to your room.

  • Alfie sez:

    Gee, you guys still have nothing?

    Alfie, Science does not seem to know just exactly who you are! How is it that it continues to just blithely find “evidence” and produce “results” without consulting you? Science needs to start treating you with some deference. It should find out what arbitrary criteria and standards you have imposed before it makes any claims to validity. And everyone should be made aware that any progress in the addiction field has simply not been acknowledged by you and therefore does not exist.

  • ez

    “Don’t agree people often need medical treatment for their alcoholism?”

    Yup, and the 12 step method sure as shooting is not medical help, is it?

  • A.A. Alfie – I found a new thread for you to start posting on. It’s from a Australian Support Group. I think they need some help. Could you help them?

    http://www.news.com.au/technology/anonymous-alcoholics-study-finds-web-trolls-get-a-feeling-of-abandon-similar-to-drunks-and-dictators/story-e6frfro0-1226080815072

  • FKABB

    JR,,,,Great find! It does seem to explain a lot about the A.A. Alfies and JD’s of the internet. Just replacing one addiction with another. No ego smashing for them dudes.

  • A.A..Alfie

    Ben Franklin “says I gave you the Brandsma and Dittman studies and you ignored them. You only want to insult and play on you terms. Sorry, when you stop acting like a child we will have adult discussions with you. Go to your room”

    Yes you did give us those. But what do they tell us? Are they relevant to the discussion we are having and the questions I am asking? Sadly, no. If you disagree though, please explain where I have misunderstood the relevance.
    But keep trying, I’m sure you will get there.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    ez says “Yup, and the 12 step method sure as shooting is not medical help, is it?”

    Correct. Which leads me nicely to the point I wanted to make.

    For mine (and most other professionals I dare say), treating alcoholism is a three step phased to obtain long term results:
    1/. Detox
    2/. Rehab
    3/. Maintenance

    Now: detox is a relatively simple process. For the chronic alcoholic it should ideally be done under medical supervision. On that we seem to agree. Say three to seven days, perhaps in conjunction with some benzo’s to assist (eg. valium) with withdrawal to keep the patient safe and relatvely comfortable.

    The next step is rehabilitation. Things get a bit more complex here with many options available such as ongoing counselling, CBT, inpatient rehabs both medium and long term etc. Even the inpatient rehabs have different therapies (eg, confrontation, holistic etc) AA could also be used here as well or other group therapies. Some hospital based rehabs do both the detox and rehab.
    For mine, rehab is education around the self, the drug and the disease, jointly and severally.

    Finally, there is the maintenance. In terms of availability and cost effectiveness, AA is clearly the most attractive. However maintenance can take many forms too. Willpower or doing it on your own, SMART, ongoing counselling, other support groups, psychotherapy etc.

    Now people do not stay in detox for their maintenance, nor do (or should) people go to AA for their detox.They do different things altogether.

    AA is not a medical clinic, but it is one of the options available for rehab/education. Its main game is that ongoing maintenance.
    It is true that it works for some and not for others. It is not the only game in town, nor is it the only avenue to maintain sobriety.

    Now to my point. Some will agree that alcoholism is a spiritual malady and in terms of the maintenance I also believe that to be true; just remember my definition of spirituality does not necessarily agree with yours.
    So once the preliminary medical assistance (detox) has been given AA is a place where the maintenance can continue for the individual. AA does not provide (and nor should it) medical advice nor assistance however is just one option in the ongoing psychosocial treatment.

    Does that make sense to you?

    So, back to my questions. In terms of a treatments for alcoholics there is no one set treatment that works. Many times it is a mix and match at stages one. two and three.

    So what works folks? What brings recovery to alcoholics? Where are the evidence based treatments? I need to see what you are talking about.

    Cheers.

  • Alfie says: “Finally, there is the maintenance. In terms of availability and cost effectiveness, AA is clearly the most attractive. However maintenance can take many forms too. Willpower or doing it on your own, SMART, ongoing counselling, other support groups, psychotherapy etc. ”

    Why isn’t “willpower or doing it your own” more attractive than AA in terms of “availability and cost effectiveness”

  • A.A..Alfie – Just to make things easier. Why don’t we just number all of the “proof” you are going to use discredit anything we give. That way you can just reply “Item #1”, etc……..

    1. The people who did the study were not Alcoholics and have never been to AA, so they don’t know what they are talking about.
    2. The study is too new or old, and it doesn’t follow the principals of the “Big Book” written in 1936. Refer back to item #1.
    3. The study is not true because AA says it isn’t, AA has no opinions and no one controls AA. I can prove it to you with “conference approved” material. Refer back to item #2.
    4. The study is false because it uses anonymous people to study. The only studies that are true are done by Alcoholics Anonymous who are by default “Anonymous.” refer back to item #3.

    Just to give you a level playing field, I will give you some personal information about myself using the principals I have learned from the prophet Bill Wilson on circular thinking in an attempt to re-wire my brain. Let the word games begin.

  • MikeAugustine

    @alfie, dude, seriously. You are the iron man of posting. Hands down. Can you stop if you want to?

  • A.A..Alfie

    JR Harris says A.A. Alfie – I found a new thread for you to start posting on. It’s from a Australian Support Group. I think they need some help. Could you help them?

    http://www.news.com.au/technology/anonymous-alcoholics-study-finds-web-trolls-get-a-feeling-of-abandon-similar-to-drunks-and-dictators/story-e6frfro0-1226080815072

    That’s quite interesting except that it relates to people with extreme views. It relates far more accurately to the forum members here than myself. This (ST) is an extreme hate group after all and it uses incorrect stereotypes to denigrate its detractors.

    Your use of this study is really an introduction of the pot to the kettle. I am not – however urprised that you don’t make that link.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    MikeAugustine says @alfie, dude, seriously. You are the iron man of posting. Hands down. Can you stop if you want to?

    Thank you?
    I can stop. Can you?

    Am I mistaken? Weren’t you leaving this thread?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    JRH
    You seem to be using the stereotypical arguments of others and mistaking me for them. I have not used a single one of those on your list to dismiss anything.
    I think this most dishonest of you and you are resorting to some of your earlier tactics. I had actually hoped you had advanced somewhat in you debating strategies. Frankly, this level of dishonesty is not worthy of one with your intelligence.

  • A.A..Alfie – I see that one of the fellowship of AA is attempting to use “The people who did the study were not Alcoholics and have never been to AA, so they don’t know what they are talking about.” tactic towards a poster on the thread that you have been put timeout on for being abusive. When they let you back to the “grownups” table, will you tell him that he shouldn’t be using that tactic?

  • A.A..Alfie

    Sure.
    Now rather than have me fix other people’s arguments, will you work on ours please?

    Where are the study’s and stats?

  • A.A..Alfie – Your in Australia, do you know anything about Port Augusta prison in South Australia? I believe you said you worked with children. They appear to be torturing children using principals very similar to the members of the AA faith that go are trained in spiritual abuse. Have you worked with any of these children?

    BB p.94 “If your talk has been sane, quiet and full of human understanding, you have perhaps made a friend.”
    BB p.94 “Make it plain he is under no obligation to you, that you hope only that he will try to help other alcoholics when he escapes his own difficulties.”
    BB p.95 “Give him a chance to think it over.”

  • A.A..Alfie

    You really don’t have any idea how big Australia is do you?

    No, I have no idea about anything that occurs in Port Augusta prison, it is some 1500 km (or 1000 miles) from where I live.
    The torturing of children concerns me, have you more info on this or is it simply another of your many evidence free claims? A claim that gives one a sense of power, an intoxication that is brought by a hard days trolling, saying anything without concern for the consequences? Sound familiar? It’s just like what they mentioned in your article?

    That aside, this little venture into new places is somewhat interesting, but what’s it to do with us?

    Anyhow….. I will wait …

  • A.A..Alfie – The International community is in an uproar about Port Augusta prison. It will be on BBC for the next few days. They target children. Where did you say you went for holiday in Australia again?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hj6t2

    BB p.95 “Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection.”
    I was hoping you could help people to expose this stuff.

  • Ben Franklin

    Wait for what? Don’t you see how pointless it is for the good people on this blog to argue with you? JREF maybe has douchebags who pretend to use logic and are allowed to post away with their spiritual and not religious crap.Believe me after going at it with Mr.AA, JD, Tony J and McGowgog on this site and others we can easily see what you are about. Compared to them, you sir, are a sissy (with apologies to all the sissies who might get offended being compared to AA Alfie)

  • JRH – Tell me more. Tell me too what it has to do wit us.

    JRH – Tell me more.
    The n tell me what it has to do with you and me.

    Ben .

    I am waiting for the proof of these baseless allegations that people here seem to be able to make with reckless abandon. At least other hate groups have some basis in fact for their grievances. This one only has an incredibly high level of gullible and/or stoopid.

    But please, prove me wrong; show me the evidence.

    A real man like yourself (LOL) would be able to stand up to an itty bitty sissy like me with some simple and provable facts. So come on tough boy, where are they?

  • BB p.95 “Unless your friend wants to talk further about himself, do not wear out your welcome.”
    BB p.96 “Having had the experience yourself, you can give him much practical advice.”
    BB p.96 “Do not be discouraged if your prospect does not respond at once.”

  • Ben Franklin

    “A real man like yourself (LOL) would be able to stand up to an itty bitty sissy like me with some simple and provable facts. So come on tough boy, where are they?”

    They are out there in the real world that you don’t acknowledge when it clashes with your world view Alfie. Really, there is nothing that I can give you that you will acknowledge. It is the same on JREF. When people give you a longitudinal study with many participants you come up with some bullshit reason that it is just not right ( not enough people, not enough time or your favorite-they are not really alcoholics). My professors would have no conniption failing you. No joke Alfie. No joke.

  • JRH – Tell me more. Tell me too what it has to do wit us.

    Where are those studies tough boy?bullying and

    Your professors!? LOL – So you are a child. I knew I was debating infants.

    As to my “bs reasons”, I am sure your professors (snigger) would encourage you to use facts to pull apart my arguments rather then the ad homs and abuse that you seem more accustomed. Is it just you? Or is that the level of logic indicative of what passes for scholastic excellence at your school, or even more broadly in your country?

    Pathetic. Would they give you a pass?

  • JRH – Tell me more. Tell me too what it has to do wit us.

    Is there an edit function in this forum?
    I want to remove some unintended text that got in my above post.

  • A.A. Alfie

    I have fixed my name up too. With apologies to one and all.

    I must admit to being rather unwell at the moment with the flu. In fact I had two days off last week, returned to work Thursday and Friday to do lectures and facilitation but am very poorly again today. The doctor has told me to stay in bed until Wednesday. That’s the bad news.
    The good news is, is that it gives me plenty of time to respond to you and dedicate time to the indepth, thoroughly researched and well considered responses I know you will provide us with.

    Cheers.

  • ez

    Fever Dreams

  • MikeAugustine

    @ez, not very nice. I don’t wish suffering on anyone. What I do wish for is that alfie gets the help he really needs. And that problem can’t be sweated out overnight.

  • Ben Franklin

    Uh, Alfie,
    Just curious. Do you consider the following document to be a valid study?:

    http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

  • aark

    Alfie,

    Reading your responses to any rational comments made reminds me of trying to talk down a delusional patient. I was trained early in my career that the best course is to avoid confrontation and wait for the medication to take effect.
    Sadly, a successful outcome is never guaranteed (one cannot educate pork).

  • A.A. Alfie

    Ben Franklin says “Uh, Alfie,
    Just curious. Do you consider the following document to be a valid study?:
    http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

    It seems valid in terms of the data used and I would not presume to dismiss it. But once again, you seem to be making arguments against some point I have not made. It is ridiculous that I happily concede AAs success rate as low, yet you throw another study at me showing same. Like I said, ridiculous.

    Do you have similar studies on other treatments fo alcoholism. We really need to compare apples with apples, not one apple with nothing else.
    Do you have similar “evidence based” studies on the other forms of treatment and maintenance for alcohol dependency/alcoholism?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Aark: Welcome. I do hope we can expect a better standard of submission in the future. Perhaps something that might even advance the discussion? It would make a pleasant change.
    You make an inference that you have some form of medical or therapeutic training. As such you would understand the need to be able to support your claims with valid information.
    Can you provide anything on other therapies, or better yet provide some discussion around the actual, comments I make? Or will your net contribution be along the same hollow lines you have so far provided?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

  • A.A. Alfie – Do I then take it that you concede that http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf” is an accurate study that can be used for a baseline against other studies of similar test groups (and NO – being an AA member diagnosed by a street evangelist quoting Bill Wilson is not part of the criteria)?

    We need a baseline to base all other studies on. A simple yes on no stating that this one study can be used as a baseline is sufficient. Otherwise, this discussion is useless.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Will you be comparing apples and apples? If so, then yes.

  • A.A. Alfie – So there is no confusion, you need to state “yes, I agree that we can use http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf” as a baseline.” Otherwise, I see a tendency to get in one of those “I never said that” debates which can be easily avoided by saying this.

  • A.A. Alfie – the above post had a quote (‘) in it by mistake after the link. The correct statement should be:

    “yes, I agree that we can use http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf as a baseline.”

    I just want to be accurate si you don’t say that the report doesn’t exist. No need to post anything else, we can decide if the report that I have in mind meets the other criteria later.

  • A.A. Alfie

    And I also would like no confusion around this and to ensure that you compare like with like. You have not exactly proven yourself to be the most honest poster to date.
    I have been asking for studies and evidence for some time now and all of a sudden you have them, but make their presentation subject to me making concessions prior ot viewing them.
    Pardon me for being skeptical.

    Apples and apples old son.

    Apples and apples old son. If you have something please put it up for consideration

  • A.A. Alfie – We can debate the “apples and apples” later. We need a baseline. If you agree:

    “yes, I agree that we can use http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf as a baseline.”

    Then we can proceed. This is standard scientific process. If you don’t start with a baseline, you can have no study between modalities.

  • A.A. Alfie

    By all means, bring in it so we can look at it. I agree, I think the apples as well as this nebulous baseline of yours can be debated later if necessary. I smell a trap matey and my mother raised no fools (alcoholics yes, but fools no).

    Bring it in. Why you would need such a concession from me is a little odd to say the least.

    Have you got something or not? If so, table it.

  • A.A. Alfie – We can debate the “apples and apples” later. We need a baseline. If need to spcifically say:

    “yes, I agree that we can use http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf as a baseline.”

    Without a baseline, we can have no study, You have to be studying against something. We want this to be a scientific study.

    P.S. I think when you are able to go back to the “grownups table” you should tell them to be more Spiritual, they have resulted to calling the opposition a “Dry Drunk” someone who has relapsed and drunk. Very scientific.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Then let’s be scientific and just put it on the table for review.
    I am pretty sure that scientists don’t say ” I’ll tell you what, I’ll put my results on the table, but no matter what it says we have to agree on a baseline and that will give me a pass mark. Is that ok?”.

    You sound a bit like that.

    Show us what you’ve got. If the studies work they work, if they don’t they don’t. The test of any study is how it stands on its own; whether it stands up to criticism and retains its integrity.

  • A.A. Alfie – What do you want. I am using standard scientific criteria. I can not debate that one apple is better than another, until I know what apple to debate against. Let me make it easy for you. This is from Wikipedia and is fairly accurate. I suggest you read about Sampling Statistics and come back.

    https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)

    If you don’t like that source, can I suggest “Math and Statistics for the Life Sciences” by Michael Harris; Gordon Taylor; Jacquelyn Taylor.

    http://www.directtextbook.com/prices/9781429205573

  • A.A. Alfie

    Sigh …..
    Put it up and we can look at it.

    btw, I am no statistician but your link as a support to this discussion appears loose at best.

    I am not in control of you, wiki nor the study.

    You can put it up or not, I really don’t care. But not putting it up and askinbg for these concessiona suggests to me that it (you) already require some levels of explanation and compensation.

    Put it up son, put it up and we can discuss it.

  • Oh well, it would appear that Alfie has chosen to debate Olivier Ameisen the French-American cardiologist who is highly regarded in France for the use of baclofen to treat Alcoholism at the “grownups table” since his ban has been lifted (has it been 3 days already?). Have fun and don’t forget how to set up a scientific study.

  • Ben Franklin

    Game Set Match

    Before I give you disappointing news Alfie, I would like to remind you 1) This is not your blog and you do not set the rules of engagement, 2) we are a muckraking blog- we muckrake AA specifically, not other forms of quit drink methods. With that in mind we are under no obligation to provide you with any evidence whatsoever of the effectiveness of other modalities like SMART etc.

    That being said, my question was:
    Just curious. Do you consider the following document to be a valid study?:
    http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf”

    The correct answer is:

    wait

    wait

    wait

    Get it: NO! It is not a valid study.
    I will list the reasons as I think of them:
    1) The authors are anonymous.
    2) The authors only qualifications are that they are AA members, not trained researchers.
    3) The paper was not peer-reviewed.
    4) The paper was about another study that was not peer-reviewed.
    5) The other paper was never published in a reputable journal.
    6) The paper itself was not published in a reputable journal.
    7) The paper was full of anecdotal evidence.
    8) The paper comes up with magical fudge factors called “normalization factors” without explaining why this was valid.
    9) The magical fudge factors change without explanation.
    10) The math behind the authors conclusions- oh the horror, the horror.
    I could go on and on but I am bored now. Bored with the triennials, bored with Hindsfoot and bored with you. I could not really leave without soundly defeating you and will feel better knowing that I showed you don’t know what you are talking about. When you go back to the “grownups table” please tell them with all honesty that you need to do more research on what valid studies are and to stay away from Stinkin Thinkin because there are some really smart children over there.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Bye bye Ben. How many times is it now you have said goodbye?
    Not really a conviction individual are you?

    btw, it is your “about” page that says you have evidence based treatments”, not me. Are you calling your own much loved hate group forum a liar?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    JRH

    Are you putting up, or shutting up?

  • MikeAugustine

    @alfie, ok, so you state you are no statistician yet you readily dismiss studies that have been done by those holding advanced degrees. So this begs the question. What are your qualifications? Do you hold a degree at the masters/doctorate level? Have you written a peer reviewed paper? Do you know the difference between qualitative and quantitative methods? Or are you just a windbag who consistently says something isn’t good enough because, well, that’s an easy thing to say. Please, enlighten us as to your education.

  • A.A. Alfie

    LOL

    I nearly fell off my chair laughing
    Do you seriously think that even if I did declare my qualifications it would mean a thing to you? Do you really think I am going to give you one skerricvk of information that might expose my anonymity. I wouldn’t trust the membership of this hate forum as far as I could throw them.

    Tell you what..

    Why don’t you tell me your qualifications first? Better yet, give me your name, address and phone number.
    Once you have done that…
    You can then tell me where you get off trying to pull down one of the few accessible hopes for alcoholics through this delightful little hate group you have going here.
    Then tell me what peer reviewed studies have been done around the rape claims and other “evidence based” treatments?

    You have to be kidding!

    At any rate, I did not dismiss the studies, in fact they largely are in line what I understand to be true. So your accusation on dismissal are a flagrant lie.

    Peer review that!

    Twit.

  • MikeAugustine

    I have a masters degree in software and information systems. how about you?

  • tintop

    You can then tell me where you get off trying to pull down one of the few accessible hopes for alcoholics through this delightful little hate group you have going here.

    hey, Alfie!
    That is the first honest thing that you wrote here. ROFLMAO

    Oh alfie, tell us about that ” flagrant lie:.
    And, you can consult counsel about a libel action. That should sort out this little hate group.

  • A.A. Alfie

    And the rest Mike, and the rest?

    Bed time now.

  • MikeAugustine

    are you at least certified?

  • tintop

    alfie:

    what about that flagrant lie told by this “little hate group? waiting. waiting.

    maybe you can tell us after your nap.

  • tintop

    I nearly fell off my chair laughing
    Do you seriously think that even if I did declare my qualifications it would mean a thing to you? Do you really think I am going to give you one skerricvk of information that might expose my anonymity. I wouldn’t trust the membership of this hate forum as far as I could throw them.

    Project much,alfie?

  • MikeAugustine

    Goodnight, alfie

  • flannigan

    @AA Alfie
    AA/NA does not work any better than no treatment. It’s that simple, really. If you disagree with that statement, please submit study/survey showing the falsehood of the statement.
    Thanks in advance. Congrats on your sobriety.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Flannigan.
    I am not making any claims here; it is this forum and its members that make the claim. The claim is made that there are “evidence based” treatments that this forum would like to refer to the world.
    I make no claims about AA except that it works for some and forms an integral part of many recovering alcoholics’ maintenance.

    The claim is yours, the burden of proof is on you.

    I’m guessing you can’t.

  • This thread is like a poison ivy rash.

  • A.A. Alfie – What level of math have you attained? 5th grade level reading usually does not require the need to know statistics, physics or geometry. So you understand these terms I will explain them to you in an easy to understand language.

    Statistics – The chances of a group being studied to react in certain fashion.
    Physics – For every action there is an opposite and alike reaction.
    Geometry – The studying of 2 points and and the associated angles to determine the third point.

    “Big Book” pg.93 “When dealing with such a person, you had better use everyday language to describe spiritual principles. ”
    “Big Book” pg.95 “Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hilltop; simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection.”

  • It’s spreading all over the blog.

    Seriously, Alfie is not actually the arbiter of science just because he says so. Progress is undaunted, even without his approval. Does anyone believe that they’re going to get him to concede a point or argue in good faith?

  • Ben Franklin

    FTG, Actually I don’t. I just slammed his ass to the floor on his lack of being able to distinguish a valid study from a bad one. He wouldn’t know how to interpret a good study if he saw one. His fellow travelers on JREF are the same way. Funny to watch, sad to know that he is a counselor. Probably couldn’t get another job in the real world.

  • I believe that by using the Spiritual writings of Bill Wilson, we may have an answer. True they are not scientific in any definition of the word, but……….. Alfie thinks they are.

    “Big Book” pg.95 “Unless your friend wants to talk further about himself, do not wear out your welcome.”
    “Big Book” pg.96 “Do not be discouraged if your prospect does not respond at once.”
    “Big Book” pg.96 “Having had the experience yourself, you can give him much practical advice.”
    “Big Book” pg.96 “If you leave such a person alone, he may soon become convinced that he cannot recover by himself.”
    “Big Book” pg.96 “We find it a waste of time to keep chasing a man who cannot or will not work with you.”

  • I noticed that, Ben. 🙂 I also noticed that he doesn’t seem to understand what evidence based treatment actually means. And that he expects to come to a blog that people have put a lot of work into over a couple of years, and demand that information be spoon-feed him personally — which he will then spit out.

    MA was right. He’s the ironman, and there is no bottom to this rabbit hole — as evidenced by the JREF thread and the fact that this thread has relentlessly dominated the recent comments list.

  • flannigan

    AA Alfie
    Thanks for your response. What you are really saying is that some alcoholics stop drinking and others do not. I agree. Most alcoholics who stop drinking do so without AA or any treatment. My claim as to efficacy of AA being the same as no treatment is based on GSO’s tri-annual surveys of AA membership. If you disagree with GSO, you should let them know. Your claim that “AA works for some and forms an intregal part of many recovering alcoholics maintenance” is just your opinion. You do not know why these alcoholics stopped drinking and why they stay stopped. No causation has been shown.
    Depending on “God” to remove an alcoholic’s obsession for alcohol is risky business.
    What if “God” doesn’t exist or if he exists, chooses to do nothing. I think the medical community can do better to help the still suffering alcoholic. I personally know of no “evidence based” treatment for alcoholics. But I have confidence that one day one or more will be discovered.

  • flannigan

    And this is still a 12 step muckraking website. Thank you MA and ftg.

  • tintop

    Go back to bed alfie

    http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=240

    It is too early for you to be up.

  • tintop

    y recovering alcoholics’ maintenance.

    The claim is yours, the burden of proof is on you.

    No alfie.
    Alfie, you do your own work. If you want to know about studies and evidence, you do your own work, your own reseaerch, your own reading. It is not the responsibility of anyone any where to do your work for you.

  • Ben Franklin

    FTG, Rabbit hole indeed. I usually like good conversation and lively debate. I actually looked forward to having a go at steppers but this faded fast after realizing the playbook was always the same and there is no way to “win” or even have them give any concession to any point. It gets tedious. Ironman in posting but not an ironman in being scientific.

    …and when we were wrong promptly admited it.

  • ez

    “You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and you believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in wonderland. And, I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes”

    Life and Art…Morpheus and Triple A, wow those AA guys are right, there are no co-incidences!

  • A.A. Alfie

    tintop says “Go back to bed alfie http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=240
    It is too early for you to be up.”

    It was very early indeed, I got up for half an hour to take some medication and cough mixture and was just passing the time.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Tintop. You may also be surprised to know it but the onus of proof is on you and others. I make no claims, you guys do. As such, you get to prove them or be called on it.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    At any rate, I am still waiting for these “evidence based” treatments (with studies preseumably) and the stats on rapes etc.

    If you want to slag off on AA fine, at least have the decency to be able to support your claims.

    Have you got them or not?

  • tintop

    Alfie:
    Do your own work. if you want to know anything, do it yourself.
    I refuse to do your work for you.
    It is immaterial to me what you are, or not, waiting for.
    Doyour own work.

  • A.A. Alfie

    You’re not too bright are you.

    Like I said, the claims are not mine, they belong to others.

    In grown-ups democratic world, a person (or organisation ) is considered innocent until proven guilty. The onus of proving guilt is on the accuser, not the other way around.

    Now I understand that Stinkin Thinkin is loon city and has many sets of behaviors that fall outside the regular social norms, but I will not be trying to find evidence against something that is not there. This is both ludicrous and impossible if there is nothing there in the first place.

    So I repeat, the responsibility lies with thie forum.

    Now please leave my thread if you have nothing else to offer. 😉

  • causeandeffect

    alfie, we’ve supported our claims. You’re just too uneducated on the issue to understand the evidence. You’ve proven it over and over. Even your little essay on how you treat your patients showed quite a profound lack of mastery of the subject matter. You even show ignorance regarding a quote from the big book; a book which you have presumably been modeling your life after. There’s no way to make this basic enough for you to understand it. The reality of alcohol dependence is too complex of an issue to dumb down enough for you to understand that what you have been presented with are valid studies on valid methods far superior to AA. It’s *your* objections that are invalid and display your ignorance. Do you realize you are making an embarrassment of yourself? I You’ve made a huge ridiculous spectacle of yourself in so many ways and on so many levels. If I were you I’d just leave quietly.

  • A.A. Alfie

    causeandeffect says alfie, we’ve supported our claims.

    No you haven’t.
    You tell big fat lies mate. In fact in that entire post of yours is totally truth free.

    You can leave my thread any time you like.

    Bye-de-bye. 🙂

  • DeConstructor

    Hey Alfie-

    You do understand that you are not debating don’t you?

    You are simply filibustering, and I think you have lost most of your audience.

    Perhaps you are emulating another famous former follower of the AA faith that overuses the words ‘duh WINNING’ a little too much.

    And while ST has wisely chosen not to censor your grandstanding, undoubtedly so the world can observe your claimed serenity, no one who is any type of critical thinker would take your rants seriously.

  • tintop

    alfie:

    No.
    Do your own work.
    Big fat lies?
    Sue for libel.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Are you signing out too DeC?

    Ohhh too bad.

    Bye bye. 🙂

    What I have proven is that the Stinkin Thinkin forum is merely an AA hate group. Any moral highground you may once have had was lost in the dishonesty that has become more and more evident as the thread has rolled along.

    You guys simply love to slag AA, anyone from AA or anything associated with AA, without a care in the world whether it is true, remotely true or an outright lie. In many countries of the world that would be illegal if you said it publicly. It is indeed fortunate that you (we) can hide behind the anonymity that you would try and deprive/remove from AA members, if not the things you say publicly would be nothing short of slanderous.

    Stinkin Thinkin is truly made up of a large bunch of groupthinky cowards and liars. That is what would be evident by an independant observer to this thread. And that is what is there for all the world to see.

    Morons

  • A.A. Alfie

    tintop says

    alfie:

    No.
    Do your own work.
    Big fat lies?
    Sue for libel.

    What for? It’s not my job to do your work, brains.
    The proof of the pudding is in the eating they say, and I’m getting pretty hungry. 😉

  • tintop

    It is your job. Do your own work.
    Sue me

  • A.A. Alfie

    He he.
    You really aren’t too bright, are you?

    Where is my pudding, pudding head?

  • A.A. Alfie

    Has everyone left?
    Oh, so sad.

    I guess this can become my own personal blog-type thread.

    I need to check in with my doctor again this afternoon as he is concerned this flu isn’t running the usual course. I’m sure it’s nothing, but better safe than sorry.
    I have had the same doctor for some 12 years now, he is well versed in addiction and alcoholism having seen much of it in his time; prior to his current practice he served on a Navy base. He is also on the board of admissions for GPs here. I feel priveleged not just to have such a learned person as my doctor, but to call him friend as well (even if he does barrack for the wrong footy team).

    That said, I am feeling a little better today, bouyed no doubt by my return to the JREF forum after an short suspension and the apparent lack of intelligent adversaries here.
    I must say I feel somewhat priveleged by the Iron-Man title bestowed upon me by this forum and have done my best to live up to it.

    Thank you again.

    We are also in the process (packing stage) of moving house at the moment with the move due on Monday 11th. I must admit to feeling a little guilty, as my beautiful wife has been doing much of the work whilst I have been incapacitated and converse on line or watch old movies.

    I went to an AA meeting on Sunday night, nine speakers and only one spoke of God. A couple of newcomers as well as the old timers.

    That will do for now, talk to you all soon.

  • “Big Book” pg.91 “Approach through a doctor or an institution is a better bet.”
    “Big Book” pg.92 “Doctors are rightly loath to tell alcoholic patients the whole story unless it will serve some good purpose.”

  • A.A. Alfie

    Interesting.

    What do you think it means?

  • A.A. Alfie

    I got back from the doctor’s earlier and he has advised that long with the flu I have a viral infection of the lungs. This is strangely good news as my wife was fretting a little that I was going to have lung cancer, heart disease or similar; like many women, she can be prone to alarmism from time-to-time.
    My beautiful wife came from a previously appalling relationship that produced two kids. Her ex is a practicing drug addict and non-drinking alcoholic. He is an abuser and drug dealer to boot; truly a piece of work. If there were no kids involved he might get a visit from a intelligent bruiser – I am not normally a violent man, but could make an exception in his case. 🙂
    We have been together some five years now and she occasionally thinks that now her life is pretty wonderful and on track, something is going to ruin it. She need not worry, my doctor tells me apart from my flu I am still as fit as a fiddle and will be around for a long time to come.

    I am still off work tomorrow and will also have to miss my regular fortnightly massage. I do not wish to infect either the clients at the hospital (which has an oncology ward which could be catastrophic) nor my massage therapist.

    I have been enjoying some old movies during the day between naps. Foxtel (cable tv) is a godsend at times like these and I especially like the ‘record’ function that comes with IQ which allows me to record many classic movies; I am reducing my backlog.

    I am going to settle down to a foreign movie now so will sign off and dedicate my concentration to some subtitles.

    Cheers.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Still unwell today but it has changed again. I am ow coughing uncontrollably at times and am chilled to the bone. This thing has lasted some time already and appears to not be moving away.

    I note with delight that some Stinkin Thinkin members have joined the JREF discussions. I say delighted because they show their bias and feeblemindedness with a pride that one would only see with political, religious or racial extremists. Truly a sight to behold. One can imagine the type of people that will be attracted to this forum as a result of their efforts. It is fortunate that by and large, those at JREF pride themselves on their ability to use logic, the same cannot be said for the stinkin thinkin hate mongers.

  • 1. Aggressive Stepper – Most dangerous
    More than anything else, they would like to be able to say that Bill Wilson and the 12 Steps are globally accepted and is the only solution possible. They regard any discussion as a fight for furthering the acceptance of Bill Wilson and the 12 Steps. They are willing to use any tactics to fight for the proliferation of the 12 Steps and think of themselves as “tough-minded” and “thick skinned”. They believe themselves of superior intelligence. Often teams up with the Special Pleader Stepper.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Where did you pull that from?

    How are those studies on other treatments coming? Oh, don’t forget the rape statistics either ok.

    The biggest pack of morons since the last unified CTers jamboree.

  • Sorry – wrong classification, I forgot you were a councilor……..

    2. Special Pleader Stepper – The hidden agenda, 2nd most dangerous
    They attend AA meetings because they have a stake in making sure that AA survives. They go, not to help the group to solve the problem of Alcoholism, but to protect protect their interests. Discussion is a platform from which they can air their rights and wishes. They are there to protect special interests (such as a Sober House or Rehab) and are willing to fight for a larger flow of customers. Often teams up with the Aggressive Stepper.

  • A.A. Alfie

    He he.
    This is fun isn’t.

    I ask questions and you don’t answer. Then you get to make stuff up – which is pretty normal for this forum isn’t it? People make stuff up here all the time and don’t feel the need to provide evidence. Like I said, fun. Curiously real life doesn’t work like that and I’m surprised you are unaware of it.

    The sad thing is that even seemingly intelligent adults get drawn into the spell that logical inadequacy is acceptable. Ah well, hopefully they will one day come to their senses and grow up.

  • For an example when a “Special Pleader Stepper” relapses, they usually return as an “Emotional Stepper” for a while. After the “Special Pleader Stepper” has thoroughly repented to the group, they then return to the role of a “Special Pleader Stepper”. (the “Special Pleader Stepper” is an anomaly, if they loose their alternate agenda of a sober house or rehab job, they will become an “Aggressive Stepper”, but only if this happens.)

    It appears that upon each relapse this happens for a while. When a relapse happens at a lower level such as the “Playboy, Playgirl Stepper” they come back at the “Emotional Stepper” level and then gravitate to the “Conformist Stepper”. Each relapse at a lower level results in the stepper to coming back and assuming a higher level. This is why you see people that have relapsed multiple times eventually become the “Aggressive Stepper” and very dangerous to come in contact with.

  • A.A. Alfie

    You have a vivid imagination indeed.

    Meantime the fun continues at JREF with the stinkin thinkin players getting their pants pulled down. A bit like me with you lot here to be honest. Did you know I have been receiving fan mail through the JREF site from members here that are enjoying my posting? They like the fact that I haven’t backed down to the bullying and they have asked me to continue the fight. It seems that they have asked the honest type questions I have here and have been shouted down.

    I am really looking foreward to that data on those two claims I have seen here (I am certain there are others but I will stick to what I know), it must be quite a selection you are compiling given the amount of time you are taking.

    I know you must have the data on the way because an honest person such as yourself would have conceded there wasn’t any if indeed there wasn’t.

    It feels like christmas; I am so filled with anticipation. 😉

    And please keep your hand away from there.

    • MA

      Did you know I have been receiving fan mail through the JREF site from members here that are enjoying my posting? They like the fact that I haven’t backed down to the bullying and they have asked me to continue the fight. It seems that they have asked the honest type questions I have here and have been shouted down.

      Let me guess…
      Did the support come from a deluded sociopath who stalks us through cyberspace? Is he bigger than a bread box? Is he the same guy who sockpuppets and morphs into more alter identities than Sybil, who has had a book and internet forums created by his victims specifically about him to chronicle his abuse; who has a nasty habit of tying up girls and dragging them behind his car on rope as part of his weight loss program; and who has also emailed and tried to ingratiate himself with anyone associated with this blog?

      Oh yes, we are familiar with your new fan. You can read more about him here. Congratulations, Alfie.

  • Cult Deprogramming: An Examination of the Intervention Process
    Posted in Deprogramming at 10:56 pm by Rick Ross

    http://www.cultnews.com/?cat=40

    ICSA resources about psychological manipulation, cultic groups, sects, and new religious movements.

    http://www.csj.org/infoserv_links/group_categories/grp_type_substance.htm

    Directory of Recovery Related Websites
    “In the interest of fairness, we present links here from web sites that do not like the 12 step approach. Some of these are very critical of A.A. and/or the 12 steps.”

    http://www.12step.org/web-sites/Approaches/Anti_12_Step.html

  • flannigan

    @AA Alfie
    AA/NA/12 steps do not “work” and never have. Have you seen or heard of any studies or surveys that show otherwise? Please refer me to one study that shows AA works. Thanks.

  • flannigan

    “Rarely have we seen a person fail that has thoroughly followed our path”

  • Oh good, I knew they’d find each other eventually. The internet (like AA!) is where whackaloons who might otherwise never cross paths can make lots of like-minded friends. Very sweet.

    When Alfie refers to his fans, is he displaying rigorous honesty, or is he just referring to all the little people running around in Danny’s head?

  • Ben Franklin

    Alfie and Cuggle? BFFs? Who’d a thunk it! Maybe together they can be ignorant about what a good scientific study is, yet keep demanding evidence for stuff unrelated to the point. Maybe they can build strawmen with each other and blame others of doing the same. How bromantic! Maybe the can tell the world how “they are kicking our asses”, even though it is pretty apparent to people in the real world it is the exact opposite, embarrassingly so. Maybe De-Nial is a river in Egypt after all. AHHH! It’s love!

  • MA

    Multiple personality disorder means never having to say you’re lonely.

  • MikeAugustine

    It’s all about Eve-il where those 2 are concerned.

  • I rather like this post, it outlines both of their tactics rather well.

    “He’s just following the standard AA Defender Ad Hominem Flow Chart:”

    http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7343535&postcount=4593

  • A.A. Alfie

    flannigan says @AA Alfie AA/NA/12 steps do not “work” and never have. Have you seen or heard of any studies or surveys that show otherwise? Please refer me to one study that shows AA works. Thanks.

    Once again you are ascribing things to me I have never said. It is the claim of this forum that there are other evidence based treatments. Well…. what are they?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    MA. I have not checked the links, suffice it to say I received far more than one pm. I guess it must be hard to imagine that even those people you thought were in your groupthink team aren’t quite as rabid as you would like. So sad, too bad.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    ftg. My fan base is quite obviously all those that post here. Based on the numbers so far, you are about my number three fan, I am guessing. PM me your home details and I will send you a signed AA Alfie t-shirt and lock of my hair for you to masturbate over.

    Thanks again for the support.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    BF. Can you please link me to a “good scientific study” that supports the claims by this forum that there are other “evidence based” options available for alcoholics?

    And I think it would be best if you didn’t play with yourself in front of the children.

  • MikeAugustine

    Oh, please. At this point the troll just wants to get banned because he has no graceful exit strategy. I say lock the thread and force him to post on newer topics. Which he won’t.

    This guy is more toxic than squire Namaste on his worst day.

  • MA

    I, for one, am a big fan of yours Alfie. Although I haven’t taken the opportunity to pm you.

    I know reading isn’t your specialty, but you should really check that link out.

  • Alfie,

    I want my t-shirt to say:

    I heart Rigorous Honesty ™.

    Also, I have not said anything sexually suggestive or debasing to you, and have not done or said anything that would indicate that it would be acceptable for you to speak to me that way. If you say anything sexually demeaning or harassing to me or anyone else here again, I’ll ban you from commenting.

    You have free rein to challenge us and state your opinions; after 14 pages, all your comments stand; they haven’t been censored, and they won’t be. It would be a shame if you ended up getting yourself disinvited — not because we withered under your maturity and brilliance, and had to ban you to save face — but just because you couldn’t stop making sexually creepy comments to people you disagree with.

  • humanspirit

    I haven’t spent much time on this particular thread, but one question to AA Alfie:

    What advice would you give to someone struggling with a drink problem or near-death addiction?

    Just interested, because you don’t seem to have suggested anything helpful so far.

  • MikeAugustine

    ooohhhh, pleeease let me post the goodbye video if/when AAA get’s banned. I have a good one in mind.

  • I would actually like to know why Alfie clams to be a “Forensic” Addictions Councilor. The term “Forensic” is used to denote that his chosen path has something to do with answering questions of interest to a legal system. He claims to have no knowledge of psychological profiling, yet claims to be doing that for a living.

    His new found friends of DannyB II, Heretik, Heretikreb, Cuggle ,Diablo, Diablower, Quagmire, Israel and/or Montclief could benefit from ” Forensic” councilors opinion on their choice of a “wolf” as a common theme. A.A. Alfie should be able to come up with a psychological profile of a constant “wolf” theme, he proudly displays this at the bottom of every post:

    “The wolfhound is right and the cannibal is wrong”. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  • Jonny Quest

    I can’t believe this thread is still going on. I gotta say, this Alfie clown is not as amusing as JD.

  • humanspirit

    In an absence of a reply, I guess it’s just the usual situation of someone’s Higher Power refusing to restore sanity on demand.

    Tricksy people, these Higher Powers.

  • Ben Franklin

    Alfie hearts Cuggle

    BFFs It’s love.

  • Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn is a Russian who wrote about the Soviet forced labor and concentration camp system and its “work camps” that many people died in. He wrote “The Gulag Archipelago” to share his stories of the death at “work camps”.

    A wolfhound is a breed of dogs that have been bred to hunt wolves. They are genetically bred to have the most dangerous predatory traits of a wolf (a super strain of wolf). The wolf was characterized globally by the Nazi practice of the “Wolf Pack”, where they moved in groups and circled their prey waiting for a chance to go in for the kill.

    A cannibal is derived from the word cannibalism which is the act or practice of a species eating the flesh of same species and is also sometimes referred to as anthropophagy.

    I would like to know why a Forensics Addictions Councilor would pick the theme of a genetically bred wolfhound (super strain) that is the most dangerous variant of the wolf species and proudly display it. The wolfhound kills for sport and does not eat its prey which are of the same species. I would also like to know why he picked Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn who wrote about forced “work camps” and the deaths associated with them. Since he is in Australia this is even more disturbing because they are currently on a big push to open up “work camps” based on the same model as the Russian Gulags. “work sets you free” is proudly proudly displayed at the gate of concentration camp in Auschwitz.

    All of the badges that Alfie proudly displays:
    “The wolfhound is right and the cannibal is wrong”. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
    “science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” Albert Einstein
    “Show me a young Conservative and I’ll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I’ll show you someone with no brains.” Francois Guizot

  • I missed that Literary Theory class offered by the Order of the Temple of the East.

  • Ordo Templi Orientis, or Order of the Temple of the East is being investigated here:

    http://www.exposingsatanism.org/oto.htm

  • A.A Alfie

    MA says I, for one, am a big fan of yours Alfie. Although I haven’t taken the opportunity to pm you.

    I know you are MA, and I thank you. It is gratifying to know that I can at least reach some people – we will never get to everyone all of the time, just a few makes my life worthwhile.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    humanspirit says I haven’t spent much time on this particular thread, but one question to AA Alfie: What advice would you give to someone struggling with a drink problem or near-death addiction?

    The first bit of advice would be not to visit stinkin thinkin. The second would probably be to seek treatment and the best place to start would be through his doctor.

    That said, the question you ask is way too broad to give a simple answer to. What sort of problems are you… er… is this individual having exactly, and what was the near death experience, how did it come about and what is it?
    As a counsellor, it takes more than just one or two sentences to determine what action might be recommended
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    JR Harrris says I would actually like to know why Alfie clams to be a “Forensic” Addictions Councilor. The term “Forensic” is used to denote that his chosen path has something to do with answering questions of interest to a legal system. He claims to have no knowledge of psychological profiling, yet claims to be doing that for a living

    A forensic counsellor is one who has an attachment to the courts. Many of my clients (in one of my roles) are referred to us through our court system. We receive clients with a broad range of issues including dependence, alcoholism, drink driving, domestic violence, domestic abuse, anger management etc.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    ftg – you imply you haven’t been rude or abusive. I rather think you have and moreover, this entire thread and forum is designed to be nothing but rude and abusive.
    It also says in your “about” page that:
    “The blog is scrappy and confrontational, and sometimes the discussion gets heated — even ugly.”

    So I ask, is ugly only ok if it comes from your side?
    While we are on ugly, I ask again, where ais the evidence of rapes within AA? How anyone can make such slanderous remarks without a skerrick of truth is obscence in the extreme.
    I would also like to see these evidence based treatments the “about” page mentioned.

    If you were to ban me it would only prove just how groupthinky this place is, expelling the hereitcs that challenge the status quo. Ironic huh? I mean given that your “about” page explicitly states that that is what this forum does.

    This is fun isn’t it?

    Hypocrites and cowards.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    JRH – I believe you just Godwined yourself.
    Thanks for playing. 🙂

  • The Ouija Board is also considered Satan’s tool. I believe that Bill Wilson was a Ouija Board to gain a higher level of “Spirituality” at the Steppings Stones compound that he coerced a widow of a member of his flock to practically give him after his program failed him and he died. He explained to her that everyone should be following the 12 Commandments of Bill Wilson, instead of the Ten Commandments in Church Basements all over the world.

    “The board puts one in contact with the spirit world and as a result it should be considered anything but a game. It continues to be marketed as as game, no doubt because of the almighty dollar. Many famous mediums began their trade by experimentation with the Ouija board and what they came in contact with are demons. Some even advise against using it. ”

    source: http://www.exposingsatanism.org/ouijaboard.htm

  • A.A Alfie – I am wondering what “I believe you just Godwined yourself” means? I am not a member or ever attended the Order of the Temple of the East, but I would like to know from a good member of the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous if they would be allowed to chant Bill Wilson in Church basements with other members of the fellowship?

  • It would appear that the use of a “Ouija Board” and its problem with Spiritual corruption and Spiritual Abuse of Children is very active on yahoo questions in the US, Canada, UK and New Zealand. I wonder if they know of the famous Bill Wilson who used the Ouija Board for Spiritual enlightenment?

  • Ben Franklin

    I like the response to Alfie on JREF:

    What other treatments?
    I’m sorry, which one of us is the addiction councillor? And you’re asking me to tell you about alternatives to AA?

    Jesus man, talkabout a bartender who can only make Gin and Tonics.

    Psyche!

  • Alfie, I’m not going to play with you. You know the difference between rude, internet shit-talking and sexually inappropriate comments. Stay on the right side of that line.

  • A.A Alfie

    friendthegirl says Alfie, I’m not going to play with you. You know the difference between rude, internet shit-talking and sexually inappropriate comments. Stay on the right side of that line.

    What is sexually inappropriate about asking people to not stare down the top of my blouse or similar? Should I just let them? Are you suggesting it is somehow my fault? I am frankly appalled at your suggestions here, I thouight that sort of thinking went out with the dinosaurs.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    JRH – Godwins law generally means that it is inevitable in an online discussion that sooner or later someone bringing up Hitler/Nazi’s. The second part is in doing so, that one has already lost the argument.

    So thanks again for playing.
    And please keep your hands on the Ouja board where I can see them.

  • A.A Alfie – Godwin’s law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments. How exactly did I do that and for what purpose? I stated facts on the history and meaning of certain words.

  • Good work, Alfie. I knew I could trust you to find that line all by yourself.

  • Ben Franklin

    “RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.”

    Uh Alfie, the above statement makes a shitload of claims. One is: constitutionally incapable and they seem to have been born that way. Where is the genetic research to bolster such statements? Please cite those studies.
    Also, rarely have we seen…yadda,yadda,yadda. By rare, do they mean 1/2 or 1/1,000,000,000. Please elaborate and give references.
    Also, those naturally incapable of grasping bullshit-er-a manner of certain living, well Bill , I assume( and making an ass out of you and not me, being that I’m not in your program) states that there chances are less than average. By average I bet we both can agree it is 50%, unless of course there is something you need to be rigorously honest about and move the goalposts again. But my question is by less than average does this mean 49.9995% or something lower? Like lets say 0.00001%-Surely a death sentence! Please supply how Bill performed these experiments to come up with these numbers and cite references ( I know, I shouldn’t have to ask you being a skeptic and all).

  • A.A Alfie

    FTG. What line? My bikini line? Please look me in the eyes?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Ben Franklin – I have not made any of these claims, so to throw them at me and ask me to defend them is pretty dumb actually. It would be like me asking you to defend slavery – you did own slaves didn’t you – even if you did ultimately free them?
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    JRF – How any of my captions in JREF possibly relates to Nazi Germany is pretty loose at best. Again, you Godwined yourself. Thanks for playing. 🙂

    Now, about those evidence based therapies and the rape stats.
    Anyone?!

  • Alfie to you remember in the post of June 26, 2011, 1:27 when you asked me:

    “Now, please tell me:
    – what the reference to the wolfhound is
    – your claim about this “only to discuss and oppose” it not quite true.
    – And as such, what other modalities have been examined to make the claims that the forum does?

    Otherwise I will think your dishonesty is showing through.

    Are you up to it?”

    You shouldn’t ask that if you don’t want an answer…..sorry for taking so long to get back to you on it, I was busy in other parts of the world.

  • Wanting Accountablity

    Alfie=If you were raped in AA, told your sponsor and was told to look at your part. Was under the impression the it should be kept w/i AA and swept under the rug. You did as you were told b/c remember not everybody in AA is like you, some can be abusive to say the least. Later when the person realizes that it was rape and a crime the statute of limitations has run out.

    Let me ask you, wouldn’t you be offended basically being told your full of shit? Btw, are you aware that rape is one of the most unreported crime? If you aren’t you should be considering your choice of career. Then you add being raped in AA a program that loves to say ‘There are no victims, only volunteers,’ you can have a breeding ground for rape and other abuse to occur. I find you insensitive at that is just the tip of the iceberg of you only seeing what you want to see.

  • Wanting Accountablity

    Alfie=I knew 2 woman in AA/NA that were raped. It was quite sickening one was by a man with 20+ yrs in the program. They (the victims) acted like it didn’t even happen. Talk about denial. B/c of the philosophy of AA/NA (you know the loving, compassionate things like your best thinking got you here, etc) and their own ignorance and believing you play a part in EVERYTHING, they were like, well I put myself in that position. You may not think this kind of thing happens in AA, but just b/c you haven’t seen it or heard about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

  • MikeAugustine

    @alfie,

    I can kind of see why you look at this site as a hate group. I would have felt the same as you 10 or so years ago when I was still a true believer. But I do think you are mixing up hate with channeled anger.

  • Wanting Accountablity

    And also Alfie, why would you spend your time on here? Seriously, I want more than anything for AA to be exposed for what it is, and you have spent more time on here than I have. I was even getting kinda obsessed awhile back. I took a break b/c it just isn’t healthy for me to be on the computer that much. You seem to have done this for how long now? I mean, all your doing is arguing with everybody in here. I or anybody I know that wants to live a productive life just wouldn’t spend their time debating with ppl that are never going to agree with you. Most of us have made our minds up about AA. I don’t get it.

    And Alfie I have been catching up on everything here, seriously dude what is up with your sexual innuendos. It is creepy, can we agree on that?

  • A.A. Alfie

    JRH @ You shouldn’t ask that if you don’t want an answer…..sorry for taking so long to get back to you on it, I was busy in other parts of the world.

    You didn’t answer it though now did you? You made some references to the wolfhound and Godwined yourself in the process.
    What you didn’t do was:
    – explain what the Solzhenitsyn reference meant.
    – justify your “only discuss and oppose” comments.
    – give me the “other modalities have been examined to make the claims that the forum does”?

    But I can wait for you to do more research. As for not wanting the answer, I’ll let you know when you have. I think you were celebrating a bit too soon dude; you are nowhere near a pass mark here.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    WA. What is the statute of limitations on rape?
    As for insensitive, I will be sensitive to those that I see have actual problems, not those some anonymous poster might have simply made up.
    Where are the stats?

    For the record, I have never said that rape doesn’t occur in AA; I am sure it has happened, as it happens in every field of human life. That does not mean that AA is full of these vile individuals now does it? Or maybe you are stupid enough to think it does…… I must admit that hadn’t crossed my mind until now. Are you that stupid?
    I am also well aware of the predators in AA, they offend me most certainly, but they are doing nothing illegal (immoral? yes, perhaps), but if two consenting adults choose to canoodle that is their business. Perhaps you are jealous, or just ugly? Who knows what your problems are? Pm me and we can discuss it if you like – you know.. professionally.

    And please let go of that.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    MikeAugustine says @alfie, I can kind of see why you look at this site as a hate group. I would have felt the same as you 10 or so years ago when I was still a true believer. But I do think you are mixing up hate with channeled anger.

    I spend time here because my fans demand it, I get to hang out with high brow, intelligent types who have lots to teach me (snigger) and to do a collective study on group cohesiveness, groupthink symptoms and behaviours on the internet – I am thinking about writing a thesis on it (lol).
    Oh, oh, ahhhhh. I crack myself up sometimes.

    And Stinkin Thinkin is most certainly a hate group: A hate group filled with vile, disgusting bias and prejudice usually reserved for political and religious extremists.
    You accuse AA of foul behaviour yet do nothing to temper the lies and falsehoods that are thrown around here like boiled lollies at a paedophile convention.
    The groupthinky morons spew their antipathy without end and all to the same feebleminded chorus and cheers that is the bulk of the Stinkin Thinkin membership.

    Not a hate group?! Don’t make me laugh. You hate AA, god and those associated with recovery. Why? Who knows? I could make some guesses but that is all they would be; guesses.

    Not a hate group, you are kidding me!
    Liars, cowards and hypocrites. All the hallmarks of a hate group:

    “A hate group is an organized group or movement that advocates and practices hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation or other designated sector of society. According to the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) a hate groups have a “primary purpose is to promote animosity, hostility, and malice against persons belonging to a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin which differs from that of the members of the organization.”

    Hate group status confirmed!

    Now where are those studies and rape statistics?

  • Wanting Accountablity

    Whoa Alfie, talk about being abusive. It is pointless to try and come at you in a respectful manner. You are not capable of returning it. Good luck with your life. Your poor wife, if you even have one. I am beginning to think you are completely full of it. Anybody that has a life like you claim to have wouldn’t be spending so much time on here. I think you just spend all your time on the computer. Sad, really.

  • MikeAugustine

    @alfie, are you claiming we hate you on religious grounds?

  • Wanting Accountablity

    And please let go of that. Creepy…..

  • Wanting Accountablity

    Alfie says, and to do a collective study on group cohesiveness, groupthink symptoms and behaviours on the internet

    That is funny b/c that is exactly what AA is. But in AA it happens in real life at meetings everyday. So apparently you are learning something.

  • A.A. Alfie

    Bye bye WA. 🙂
    Something tells me you will be back.

    MA:
    I am saying that this forum and its membership hates AA for a variety of reasons.
    Why don’t you tell me what yours are?

    Why don’t you tell me why a brave fellah like you would ridicule an AA member whom you have never met and do not know personally, then create an entire thread for the purposes of abuse and vilification.
    You could also tell me what this forum is trying to achieve when nothing positive comes out of it, no links to other “evidence based treatments” are made (in spite of a number of claims made), the membership is steeped in appalling generalisations and unsupported claims of the ugliest kind?

    Once you’ve done that tell me why I wouldn’t think this a hate group?

  • Wanting Accountablity

    Alfie I never said I was leaving. Although I am going on a vacay and need to pack etc. I bet you will still be here when I get back.

  • Wanting Accountablity

    Alfie says, Why don’t you tell me why a brave fellah like you would ridicule an AA member whom you have never met and do not know personally, then create an entire thread for the purposes of abuse and vilification.

    If that happened to me or anybody else I know, (that is rational) I would say my peace then move on. And the point of it is to point out how irrational some AA true believers can be. You have been on the JREF forum for how long? What is scary is you are a counselor (or claim to be.) You are advising others on living a healthy, wholesome, productive life and then spend yours doing this.

  • A.A. Alfie

    He he
    What’s your excuse?

  • tintop

    Alfie:
    No excuse is necessary.
    never has been, never will be.

    No one here owes you any explanation of any kind at any time. Never has, never will.

    Clear?

  • MA

    “Why don’t you tell me why a brave fellah like you would ridicule an AA member whom you have never met and do not know personally, then create an entire thread for the purposes of abuse and vilification.
    You could also tell me what this forum is trying to achieve when nothing positive comes out of it, no links to other “evidence based treatments” are made (in spite of a number of claims made), the membership is steeped in appalling generalisations and unsupported claims of the ugliest kind?”

    Alfie –

    To answer your questions. First: We highlighted you because you are a poster boy for so many things we write about here. That thread and your words say more about the program than we ever could, and any lampooning of you was done by yourself, in a public forum, in your own words. You aren’t the only person we’ve highlighted here. Not that you aren’t special – you are The Iron Man, after all – but you’re one of many.

    Second: We aren’t a recovery blog. Our primary purpose is tear the ass out of AA. We all have a role here. Yours is to do what you do, ours is to make fun of it. I won’t tell you how to do your job, and you don’t tell us how to do ours. Let keep to our tasks at hand.

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on whether or not this is positive.

  • A.A. Alfie

    You seem a little upset…. Is there something wrong? 😉

    I guess that little outburst is directed at Wanting Accountability too is it? You know, he did ask me first didn’t he?.

    Anyhow…

    Have you ever looked at the symptoms of groupthink? Interestingly this place has all the hallmarks required.

    And please stop drooling and panting.

  • A.A. Alfie

    MA. We do disagree, would you like me to walk away now that we have that sorted out? Too bad.
    We also disagree on some other things, will you walk away from those now too?

    Off to bed now, I will see you all tomorrow.

    Perhaps in that time you could actually refute the FBIs definition of why this isn’t a hate group and find me those studies and rape statistics?

    One can only hope. Good luck.

  • MA

    “Perhaps in that time you could actually refute the FBIs definition of why this isn’t a hate group….”

    We don’t hate you, Alfie. And we certainly aren’t prejudiced. We’ll mock any deluded 12-stepper; regardless of race, age, sexual orientation or nationality.