JD’s Other Gig

JD, aka "Mondotuna"

“The more immediate question is what is it about the faux Narconon program that is so attractive to ftg and MA that they provide an easy link for people to connect with The Coach? If people are paying $2500 for every 8 phone calls to an untrained spin-dry Graduate there is certainly enough money floating around to explain it, but might they like to promote it for other reasons? I mean the harping about the 2yr degreed and licensed addiction crowd is a constant, and the opinions about how untrained AA sponsors are and how they have no right to help people for free are ceaseless…so how could The Coach make perfect sense to them to actively promote? Giving people in trouble an easy path to Stevie doesn’t meet any logical standard at all for them that I can envision, and is a true mystery.”

JD wrote this in our comment section today. He makes a good point. We like Steven, and we think he has a lot of good things to say. But we don’t want to look as though we are promoting one brand of recovery over another. So, in the interest of fairness, we thought that we would direct everyone to a Lifering forum, moderated by our very own JD, aka “Mondotuna.” He’s a man of many hats. Not only does he troll here, but he hosts a “plan B” forum, too!

Those interested in a recovery forum should go there and say “hello.” There’s no sense in keeping JD’s wisdom to ourselves. Perhaps you can share with them, the words of wisdom JD has given us here: Lifering Recovery Forum. Make sure you tell them how you found the site!

UPDATED by ftg to add:

I’d like to edit this post to reflect the real story here, which is that JD was using his position as a moderator at LifeRing to gather information about people who know and trust him as “mondotuna”. JD quoted and revealed painful information about people in order to mock them, while not revealing how he was privy to this information. Not only that, but he constantly disparaged LifeRing as among the “Plan B” programs that don’t work. In fact, he challenged us to go to LifeRing and see if we can find people who’ve been successful there. He talked about how fun it was to watch people continually relapse.

All this stuff is unpacked and linked to in the comments, so make sure to read them through.

I’ve been looking at the LifeRing messageboard, and JD’s farewell comment, where he admits to betraying himself and the people who trust him. He admits to even saying things he doesn’t believe in order to disrupt people he disagrees with. (But we’re the one’s with the delicate fee fees and are out for blood. We’re the violators of privacy. Right.) It seems that some of the responders to that post aren’t grasping the depth of JD’s betrayal, and are under the impression that we have attacked LifeRing. We don’t have anything against LifeRing. It’s on our blogroll. In fact, in our comments a few weeks ago, you’ll find JD preemptively ridiculing someone in the event that she decides to go to LifeRing after leaving AA.

I also want to make it clear that we’re not exposing JD as a private person. Please keep pictures of him or any personally identifiable information or private details off the Stinkin’ Thinkin’. He feels that his privacy was violated, which is asinine — especially considering the liberties he has taken with people who trust him. We didn’t violate his privacy, we exposed “mondotuna” as “JD” — and we’re not going to be complicit in his betayal of his station at LifeRing while he uses it to undermine both us and LR. The display of entitlement is mindboggling.

However, I see the JD still has that “hammer” next to his name. I’ll add the LifeRing link back to the blogroll once it’s gone.

[Just to be sure there is no misunderstanding: We are saying that JD/mondotuna/cabledude used information that he learned about people on another forum, not that he misused confidential information that only he had access to (which is something we couldn’t possibly know). All the information we’re talking about is public, of course, but people who post on support boards can reasonably expect to be treated with sensitivity by the moderator — and that is surely the intent of the forum’s owners who created the space and put JD in that leadership position. Members should be able to expect that, of all people, the moderator will not follow them to other communities and use what he learned on the board  against them, while hiding behind a different identity.]

496 Responses to 'JD’s Other Gig'

  1. JD says:

    MA, I might be surprised but I think people on here are generally far better than you evidently are. Instead of directing a mob to take your vengence for making you look ridiculous repeatedly here you may find your quest for revenge will be something you yourself need to take care of. You’ll always find me cooperative if you’d like to work things out together.

    To ST members, take this as a lesson regarding the site owners willingness to violate any information (as in email address) you provide to them while foolishly trusting their assurances it will not be misused.

    We appreciate the opportunity at LifeRing to discuss non-AA recovery options with interested new people, and we welcome anyone who would like to explore that route.

  2. zooromeo says:

    @JD – you been caught mofo

  3. JR Harris says:

    JD. How do you feel about giving your phone number to drunks you don’t know at an AA meeting (don’t try and tell me you never gave your number to a newcomer) and taking drunks you pick up off the street into your house? This is what happens in case you don’t know:

    http://cherrybuzz.com/buzz/predators-lurk-in-traverse-city-recovery-community/

  4. JD says:

    No z, I’ve simply been ‘outed’ mofo by the same people you trusted with your sign-in information (required, but never shared). I’m just really glad I didn’t leave my wallet unattended around them.

    Very classy.

  5. MA says:

    JD, we found you two ways. First, your habitual inability to use an object in a sentence; and two, the biographical information you provided in the comments section, which you also provide in the Delphi AA forum. It’s not difficult to put two and two together. Hell, we even found a comment of yours on Amazon, professing your (then) 23 years of sobriety, and criticizing a book on how to quit drinking without AA. You’re about as transparent as it gets.

  6. JR Harris says:

    JD, I know that you don’t have the mental capacity to realize this, but having an email address will not tell anyone where else you post. Can I suggest a refresher course at one of the local high schools to teach you this?

  7. MikeAugustine says:

    Ok, I have little sympathy for JD. He was quick to ridicule Gunthar 2k months back about G2K’s mental health issues that had been shared on other forums. This makes JD an especially callous and despicable person. On the other hand I think it is mean to troll the Web in order to out JD personally. Posters like tintop have shown intense hatred for JD, and if I were him right now I’d feel a little uneasy. It’s like if Squire Namaste suddenly knew my name…not cool. I think this has gone far enough. Just ban JD or respect his privacy. Again, I think he is a complete a-hole. But even a-holes have some basic rights to privacy.

  8. JD says:

    Sure MA, you just looked around for anyone who doesn’t always lead off a sentence with ‘I’, doesn’t live in America, and who didn’t like some flakey book 6 years ago.

    With revealing information like that I can see why you didn’t even need my email address, which I gave you in the mistaken belief you had minimal ethical standards. Uh, highly doubtful you’ve done a complete reversal and become someone with any principles at all within the last 15 minutes. Do people you snake often believe it when minutes later you try to tell them you’re really are operating under reasonable standards?

  9. Raze says:

    No one JD said you had to be here, it was your own personal choice to put in your information and post on this site. You have no one to blame except yourself on this matter.

  10. JR Harris says:

    In AA they always just tell you to find another meeting if you don’t like the one your going too. I believe we were just talking about that on another thread.

    People in glass houses shouldn’t ………………………………????

  11. Lucy says:

    JD, This blog belongs to FTG and MA, not an amorphous group like Lifering or AA or you or me. This isn’t an AA meeting wrapped in the Traditions, and it isn’t an online group where you get to guide a bunch of people into what your idea of sobriety ought to be. It’s not even about how to stop drinking, which is obviously what you want it to be so that you can give us a bizarre kind of manipulative self -help.

    It’s private blog dedicated to unmasking fraud in the “sobriety” community, and you LIED about who you are and what you do

    On top of lying, you have repeatedly posted several offensive attacks on people who weren’t talking to you, avoided any kind of direct conversation, and generally tried to divert conversations with silly attention-getting grandstanding and insults.

    What did you think would happen? Did you think that you were so smart you would get away with it? Do you think that your actions have no consequences?

    Give me a break.

  12. JR Harris says:

    JD, can you explain to me the process someone would go through to find other posts you have made with an email address? I hate to tell you this but it can’t be done.

    The night time computer courses at the local high school usually only require a 9th grade reading level.

  13. Lucy says:

    MikeAugustine – That’s a good point, JD showed me the depth of his understanding and care about others when he referred both to Gunthar and my husband as “Beepers.”

    So very kind and insightful from a pathological liar.

  14. Primrose says:

    On reflection, perhaps ftg/ma would remove the link I posted with the picture. The one I wanted to share was the forum, which I posted twice.

  15. AnnaZed says:

    My Darlings, you know that I dote on you all, but this I object to on the grounds that it is boring.

  16. JD says:

    Lucy et al, I’ve never lied in any post I’ve made. If you believe that’s so, you’re in error.

    As far as it being a private blog, it’s pretty accessible to the public, wouldn’t you agree?

    I planned a good laugh in Nov about ST referring people to the non-AA forum I help out with, but doing it this early was a decision I was not involved in, and I take offense with those who took it on themselves to violate my privacy to this degree. That’s not something you or I or I believe most people would do.

    I’m not sure yet exactly what I’m going to do about it, but it’s a principle of min to always give better than I get.

  17. JR Harris says:

    Link to Facebook Privacy Journal. Lots of information on maintaining privacy for anyone that is interested:

    http://paper.li/f-1293899186#

  18. JR Harris says:

    Why are you so angry? Your right where your Higher Power wants you to be.

  19. Jonny Quest says:

    JR Harris says “JD, can you explain to me the process someone would go through to find other posts you have made with an email address? I hate to tell you this but it can’t be done.”

    Actually, it can.

    Google Search with Search Terms “mondotuna” and “recovery”

    Additionally, the blog operators, if one is not connecting via a proxy, have access to your Internet IP address, which can very easily be used to figure out where you are, down to the city and phone number area code.

  20. JR Harris says:

    JQ – mondotuna is a screen name, not an email address.

  21. MA says:

    You’ve gotta let go of those resentments, JD. You know it took about two seconds to find you. You folks posted a link to our blog that pinged back to you back in January.

    We certainly didn’t disclose any private information that you hadn’t put out to the world. I’m really not sure what the problem is. You practice AA principles in all of your affairs, so what you’ve written here shouldn’t be an embarrassment.

  22. Jonny Quest says:

    @JR:

    But his e-mail address has that before the “@” sign, which the blog operators would have access to.

    If a search on the full e-mail address didn’t get any hits – Google will not index e-mail address now, it seems, although I believe it once did – they could search for it that way.

  23. JR Harris says:

    JQ, try your own email address and see what happens. Unless the name before the @ sign is the same as your screen name, it won’t show up. You are just searching for a screen name associated with a post. Not an email address. Email addresses will only show up in a search if you post the email address.

  24. humanspirit says:

    I guess if JD is pissed off about this, he ought to look humbly and in a fearlessly honest way for his own part in it.

  25. JR Harris says:

    No he’ll probably use the “Take what you want, and leave the rest” clause.

  26. I dont care what JD is doing. He is exactly the kind of unlike minded people in AA that I want no part of. I think I’ll go to dinner and then sing karaoke and enjoy my evening with my husband.
    Im free.

  27. BusBozo says:

    Bottom line JD, you are a fraud!

  28. Jonny Quest says:

    JD: “To ST members, take this as a lesson regarding the site owners willingness to violate any information (as in email address) you provide to them while foolishly trusting their assurances it will not be misused.”

    You annoy me sometimes, so I can see why they might not like you, but I don’t know what to make of this public outing. It sets a bad precedent.

    If they wanted you gone for being disruptive, they should have just blocked your login and IP address, with a warning not to be clever and use proxy servers to bypass it or else.

    JD: “We appreciate the opportunity at LifeRing to discuss non-AA recovery options with interested new people, and we welcome anyone who would like to explore that route.”

    This is good, but your comments on this blog regarding other approaches that are not AA would indicate a conflict of interest.

    Since you are a moderator on that LifeRing support group, do you usually trash every approach other than AA on there as well, or selectively allow pro-AA posts while deleting anything anti-AA?

  29. JD says:

    2 seconds? Locating a book review from 6 years ago and finding out who doesn’t live in the US and who also doesn’t use an object in a sentence? That’s how you earlier said you did this, right?

    If you couldn’t do all that in the 2 seconds you now say it took you that would make you a liar, so you must indeed be very speedy.

    You’re amazing Speedy, but not in a good way.

    I don’t get resentments, haven’t for a very long time. In a way, causing you to display your ass to the readers here is a kind of service to them so they know what you are, and I’m big on being of service.

  30. Jonny Quest says:

    JR Harris: “JQ, try your own email address and see what happens. Unless the name before the @ sign is the same as your screen name, it won’t show up. You are just searching for a screen name associated with a post. Not an email address. Email addresses will only show up in a search if you post the email address.”

    JD seems to have done just that – used the same e-mail address as his profile name on the LifeRing forum, and it is listed in his profile.

    I never said he was particularly clever, but again, the mods have access to your IP address, which would give them your internet provider and location, unless you route it through a dozen countries first, which I have done at times.

    The ex-Soviet Republics are great for this – you want real “winners” where law and order is routinely violated to do it right.

  31. JR Harris says:

    JD, doesn’t the prophet Bill Wilson instruct his flock on pg 90 (“When you discover a prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous , find out all you can about him.”) and then to go behind his back to all of his friends, family, doctors and even the police to expose him as an Alcoholic?

    (NOTE: Not affiliated or associated with the Trollaholics Anonymous 12 Step Program)

  32. Pogue Mahone says:

    Not sure why he hangs around the B&C forums..just to be an asshole?
    http://forums.delphiforums.com/sosdiscussion/messages/?msg=249.1

  33. MA says:

    Oh yes, ,Pogue Mahone. He’s all over that forum and Lifering forum, shutting down people who have contempt after investigation of AA. That’s his schtick there. In the AA forum it’s being the wise old-timer. In the Lifering one it’s to shut down AA criticism, as well. And here is just basic trolling and abuse. He’s by far acts as the biggest prick here on ST, no doubt because he knew nobody was looking. Everywhere he goes, it’s the same passive-aggressive, poorly written writing style. It isn’t difficult to spot a “JD.”

    Imagine what he’s like in person. Holy hell!

  34. humanspirit says:

    JD says:” I take offense with those who took it on themselves to violate my privacy to this degree.”

    How has JD’s privacy been violated in any way? I use a couple of different user names on other forums (humanspirit is just the one I use on this one), but I would have absolutely no problem if anyone on ST linked the name humanspirit to any of the names I use on other sites that I occasionally post on. I’m not trying to hide anything in any way. I just don’t think you’d necessarily be interested in my views about China, the EU, the devastating cuts in public services in the UK, etc., but you’re all welcome to follow my comments on those things if you’re really interested.

    What’s JD’s problem? He continuously sneers and snipes at sincere people on ST, without presenting any kind of coherent arguments. He behaves like a six-year-old wannabe bully, for example, by addressing Ben Franklin as “Little Bennie Franklin” and Stephen Slate as “Little Stevie” (Why? What does he get out of this kind of childish stuff, and what’s he trying to prove?) He can rely on us to not play games with his user name, for example we’d never dream of suggesting that JD stands for Jealous Drunk, or Jaded Delusionist, or whatever, and we would never stoop to addressing him as such (would we ? :) )

    JD does not have to post on this site. He gets some kind of satisfaction from dropping in here frequently to add a few poisonous and (to my mind) generally incoherent and unintelligible comments, and he is tolerated. He should be grateful for that, not whining because he’s been revealed as a fraud.

    Meanwhile I wonder what any of this has to do with his helping the “suffering alcoholic” or celebrating his own “sobriety” and happy, joyous and free existence.

  35. mikeblamedenial says:

    I remember this persona from my time at 12-step-free and the early days of the blamethenile on youtube. Time to put him in the “outed trolls” folder and wait for him to reappear.

  36. AnnaZed says:

    Jeez, one wonders when a person would have time for international travel and flower arranging with that level of online posting commitment.

  37. Ben Bradley says:

    Did JD ever attack me? If so, I missed it.

    My blog is listed in the blogroll! Where on Earth did someone at this website find THAT? :D

    Now I’ll have to make some anti-AA blogpost to earn my stay here.

  38. Jonny Quest says:

    MA: “He’s all over that forum and Lifering forum, shutting down people who have contempt after investigation of AA.”

    Sounds like Sober Recovery…. “program-neutral” moderators who are AA members and control the 12-Step forum, the regular “alcoholism” forum, AND the “alternatives” forums.

    They do keep a few “token” mods who claim not to be AA members for show, but they toe the party line.

    I do find it interesting, but quite predictable, that even though I said I wasn’t keen on this move here, he still did not answer my question about his moderating methods on the LifeRing forum.

    Good to know there are AA “old timers” in LifeRing to “help out”.

  39. Jonny Quest says:

    Goes to show, it is best to stay away from ALL recovery groups…

  40. Lucy says:

    MA, at first I thought outing him might be a little harsh. By the fact that he yet sees “his part” in the fact that you outed him or that you guys own the blog, I can see that I was wrong.

  41. Sally says:

    Speaking of rabbit holes….

  42. Steven Slate says:

    I’ve always been suspicious of the term “troll” because I’ve usually just seen it directed at people for disagreeing with the majority on a board – but now I really know what a troll is.

  43. humanspirit says:

    @Jonny Quest says: “I do find it interesting, but quite predictable, that even though I said I wasn’t keen on this move here, he still did not answer my question about his moderating methods on the LifeRing forum.”

    Jonny, JD never answers a straight question..

  44. mikeblamedenial says:

    JD said: “For the fun of it. I almost always have a laugh here except when this place gets boring. Then I leave for a bit and come back with hopes that rarely are not exceeeded. This is one of the finest humor sites on the Web.”

    Are we having fun yet?

  45. DeConstructor says:

    JD-

    I hope you thought to call your sponsor.

  46. JD says:

    MBD, having my estimations of the character of people confirmed is always a pleasure. Matters not if they turn out high or low, as is true in MA’s case. I mean, what kind of surprise could this really be?

  47. JR Harris says:

    JD, does this remind you of an AA meeting when everyone gives you the “cold shoulder” and talks behind your back because you are in Denial?

  48. humanspirit says What’s JD’s problem? He continuously sneers and snipes at sincere people on ST, without presenting any kind of coherent arguments. He behaves like a six-year-old wannabe bully, for example, by addressing Ben Franklin as “Little Bennie Franklin” and Stephen Slate as “Little Stevie” (Why? What does he get out of this kind of childish stuff, and what’s he trying to prove?)

    Yea let’s get Stewie from Family Guy to kick his butt!

  49. JD says:

    MA, see that? How nasty rumors get started and perpetuated? I’ve never called either of them ‘Little…whatever’. As far as Stewie from Family Guy beating me up, I’ve no idea who that may be but speaking modestly that’s a highly unlikely outcome.

  50. causeandeffect says:

    Gawd, the idea of JD gaslighting people elsewhere, people who are using alternatives to get sober, absolutely makes my skin crawl.

    There is no invasion of privacy here. He’s been posting on open forums, and all this is easy to research. It’s simply the nature of the web. This site is dedicated to researching all news regarding AA and recovery in general. It’s only a matter of time before they run across JD as mondotuna. And, since we all know exactly how he behaves, the only responsible thing to do would be to out him before he can abuse many more than he already has.

    And as Humanspirit so aptly expressed, there is no reason for him to be upset in the least unless he is aware that he has something to hide, something to be ashamed of. JD must have this shame and at the same time be so unself-aware of it, the only thing he can do is place blame on others for for his getting caught doing his despicable acts. All he can do is lash out and deny responsibility because he has absolutely nothing else. Those who have been here a while know he is so completely unself-aware that even when he’s cold busted telling a long series of blatant lies that would make most people shrink of in embarrassment (actually most people wouldn’t lie like that) that he still has the audacity to return time and time again. To JD, it’s not about what he’s done, it’s the fact that he got caught. And more importantly that he got caught before the end of November.

    JD that kind of red, burning feeling in your face right now, well, that’s called embarrassment. Having said all that, ROFLMAO! Stupid fool.

  51. A couple days ago, I re-posted a few of JD’s first comments on Stinkin’ Thinkin’ because they are such a stark contrast to the righteous persona he displays today. However, certain strains remain consistent with the early days of JD, especially the attempts to personally humiliate and expose other people. Now, I see that as “mondotuna” he was privy to information about people that he exposed here as JD.

    Have another look at this particular comment he left here in his first days on Stinkin’ Thinkin':

    Well here’s a secret for inquiring minds…

    ” I’ve been an AA member for over 22 years now.” Any guesses which rabid ST claimed that? You won’t read it here, because he prefers you believe otherwise.

    Does that make him a liar here, or a liar there? My guess is any of you who isn’t bleeding from the eyes on hangover mornings is also a secret AA member, just like our friend here.

    If you’re whining about AA here and still slinking into the back rows of meetings hoping you’ll magically stay sober like the real AAs do, then you’re as hypocritical as this bozo’s example. Just do everyone concerned a favor and stay away until you hurt enough to take 12 steps. No reason until then to waste the air you take up in meetings, hoping.

    It’s not going to ever happen for you.

    Funny to see all the postings here about the silly things drunks do, written for silly drunks who think they’re immune to doing silly things while drunk.

    “I’ve been an AA member for over 22 years now.” HA!

    Whoever this person is, JD owes him or her an amends. He used his position at Lifering or the AA forum to humiliate someone who apparently also comments here. Mondotuna surely welcomed this person, then ran over here and used his JD handle to humilate him or her. JD never revealed the identity publicly, but whomever he was referring to — if s/he saw this comment — would have felt exposed and might not have returned here or there after seeing their words exposed like this.

    JD also came here to make insinuations about Ken Ragge’s drinking habits. He came here to expose Ken Ragge, based on some rumor or gossip he heard. His intention was to humiliate Ragge and anyone who has any respect for him. I don’t know why he thought that an AA-critical blog would share AA’s weird purity fetish, but he apparently didn’t think that part through:

    Ah Ken, Ken, Ken….could it be that Ken is doing a little chippie drinking? That would be something of note within the anti community, wouldn’t it? And, it would certainly let people in the anti cause down if it got around that a stalwart know-it-all like Ken has begun tossing a few back. In a powerful way, of course.

    It probably did prove to be a solution to his Dry Drunk problem.

    Would someone please check and then let everyone else know the sad news?

    Here is JD exposing painful personal details from someone’s life that he was probably privy to as “mondotuna”:

    Glad to hear you’re in a good space this month. I remember not long ago when you were firmly bent on suicide for being such an abysmal failure in life, and I’ll take some of the minor and dubious credit for being among those who successfully talked you down off that ledge.

    I’m ambivalent about the fact that we’re letting JD set the bar in this situation, but it seems clear that he is gaining people’s trust as mondotuna and then violating that trust as JD over here. It’s lowdown, chickenshit behavior and like he says, “No sympathy for self-inflicted wounds.”

  52. JD says:

    C&E, like it or not I’ve never lied on any post. Really am tired of repeating that so write it on your hand so you won’t need to be corrected again for a week or two.

    Your rationalization for Speedy disclosing my identifiable information is as weak as are his various explanations of why he overlooked my email info in favor of the more exhaustive and involved searches that he says he completed in 2 seconds.

    You called me audacious, and that’s probably so. I do like to argue, I’ll admit that’s been a lifelong pattern. ST was a gold mine for me of course and I’ve had a lot of fun with the back and forth stuff.

    I expected to be banned, but since things have taken this course and we’re all still buddys I see no reason to change things at all. You and others can keep spouting nonsense drivel, and I’ll occasionally keep correcting your errors. Sounds like continued fun to be had for all.

  53. JR Harris says:

    Why don’t you just change your handle to mondotuna over here JD? That way people will at least know who you are and the information you have gathered from them on Lifering? That would be the rigorously honest thing to do. Wouldn’t it?

    It will also solve this discussion and make you feel a lot better.

  54. JD says:

    ftg, I was holding some small hope this was all Speedy’s deal and you were not on board.

    Anyway, note I never outed the person who I helped talk down from the ledge. Or the person who was claiming 22yrs elsewhere.

    That’s not something I”d do. As an aside, it’s perfectly ok with me if you and MA look up to me for that, from your current vantage point.

  55. SoberPJ says:

    Well,well, well…a rabid, abusive 12 Stepper moderating a secular, non 12 Step forum, and regularly posting here in rigorous defense of AA. Wow, just wow. It must be like being a secret agent, hoping to not get caught. It must be a thrill, you know, being that dishonest. What else can it be? I guess higher callings demand rigorous dishonesty.

    JD, you are a liar and a fake, in addition to being abusive and demeaning and now I am even more convinced you have serious mental issues. You have been exposed for what you are and you should go away and never come back. YOU bought this one pal, go do a 4th step and examine your behavior in all its glory. Unless, of course, you are constitutionally incapable.

    Serious, just get out of here, you are pathetic and make me sick. And, I’m really glad you are outed, and I sincerely hope it exposes you in other areas – you deserve it.

    Remember, nothing happens in gawds world by mistake, so this must be a sign. And the sign says, “you suck.”

    All the best,

    SoberPJ

  56. JD, yes you did out the person you “helped talk down from the ledge.” You were speaking directly to him and used his name in the comment. I left that out of the quote. So, indeed it is something you’d do.

    As I said, you didn’t name the person with 22 years, but whoever it was would have known you were talking about them. It blows my mind that you could think that just not naming the person makes it all OK.

    You used what you knew as mondotuna to humiliate someone over here. Read that comment you made again, and tell me honestly: If you were the person JD referred to, would you have any reason to believe that JD wouldn’t out you? Does JD sound like someone you could trust to protect your identity? Would you return here after that? Would you feel comfortable confiding in anyone over at Lifering or the AA forum (wherever you pulled that quote) again, knowing that your words would be exposed here by some anonymous person named JD?

  57. causeandeffect says:

    JD, I don’t need you to explain anything to me. Cold busted is cold busted. Exposed is exposed. You’re a sick bastard. Just one question, is that really your photo up there?

  58. JR Harris says:

    “Psychopathy is a personality disorder characterized by a combination of superficial charm, manipulative and antisocial behavior, sensation-seeking and impulsivity, blunted empathy and punishment sensitivity, and shallow emotional experiences. Psychopathy is a particularly robust predictor of criminal behavior and recidivism.”

    http://www.drugabuse.gov/newsroom/10/NR3-15.html

  59. JD says:

    I do remember now using the name of the person on the ledge. You’re right, and if memory serves it was to bring a bit of reality back to how they were presenting themselves here.

    Ok, I did that and I was way wrong for doing that. I should have kept my mouth shut.

    And what do you have to say for yourself?

  60. JR Harris says:

    So manipulation of a persons emotions is OK if it ends up right? What happens when it doesn’t end up right?

    The correct thing to do would be to change your handle to the one people know to prevent this from happening again.

  61. causeandeffect says:

    There is nothing wrong with exposing the fact that you gaslight and generally abuse people who are trying to get sober on other sites. Your behavior is despicable and should be exposed.

  62. causeandeffect says:

    JRH, all of the above describe JD except for the charm. He has all the charm of a cockroach and is as hard to get rid of.

  63. DeConstructor says:

    Nice try JD-

    Like you would have mentioned you were wrong if you were not flat out busted in action.

    I keep forgetting that AA ‘suggestion’ regarding rigorous honesty.

    Try to make amends only when you are busted.

    You have been exposed///hahahhahahahahaha-

  64. We should protect someone that we know is using his trusted position on one forum to cull information about people and expose them on our forum under a different handle?

    Are you serious?

    And do you honestly believe that you didn’t violate the person you quoted? If you genuinely don’t see how you could have hurt this person, despite not revealing his or her name, then you’re unqualified to comment on my ethics.

  65. JD says:

    Boys, settle yourselves down. ftg reminded me about using the handle, which I’d forgotten about. When she reminded me of that I could see it was wrong.

    Before-couldn’t see it was wrong, after the reminder-could see. Clear enough? I’m not required to make amends for errors I don’t see, capish?

  66. causeandeffect says:

    Here’s a little song dedicated to JD for all his contributions to the sobriety of others!

  67. JR Harris says:

    You didn’t realize it before, but you realize it now. Capish?

  68. hulahoop says:

    Welcome to LifeRing Recovery: a place to empower your sober self.

    You have come to an alternative public forum for self-help recovery from alcoholism and other chemical dependency.

    Our philosophy in three words: Sobriety, Secularity, Self-Help.

    We offer information and group support for abstaining from alcohol and “drugs.”

    This is an abstinence forum; look elsewhere for moderation, substitution, or control advice.

    This is a secular place: feel free to bring your experience, strength and hope, as well as your questions, fears and concerns. Please leave your Steps, Higher Powers, praying, preaching, and proselytizing at the door.

    This is a self-help recovery workshop. We share tools and support, but only YOU can build the recovery program that keeps YOU sober. Look elsewhere for magic formulas, guaranteed cures, and instant fixes.

  69. hulahoop says:

    JD says Boys, settle yourselves down. ftg reminded me about using the handle, which I’d forgotten about. When she reminded me of that I could see it was wrong.

    Before-couldn’t see it was wrong, after the reminder-could see. Clear enough? I’m not required to make amends for errors I don’t see, capish?

    Yep. Clear enough. True stepper logic.

  70. JD says:

    ftg, then you believe you and Speedy have done the correct thing here and now, and have nothing at all to apologize to me for. Nothing I’ve mentioned here came from anyone on LR.

    Guess we’re done.

    Your ethics, such as they are, permit you to do harm and violate the trust of those who you disagree with. Interesting that you accuse me of the same thing from a position of doing the same thing. You’ve not been known for great logic, but this is a real disconnect even for you.

    That’s the main drag here, that ST members are by and large as blind as bats. I didn’t care really, but it was a constant irritation to repeat and dumb things down to the most elementary level. And the visciousness! Answering a question civilly and then getting a rabid response back from the same person was often disconcerting. Very uneven and unpredictable.

    Anyway, fare thee well.

  71. SoberPJ says:

    He is unqualified to comment on anyone’s ethics. His behavior is one more example that AA is riddled with people that have minimal ethical boundaries. He probably can’t even see he was wrong. There is something inside of him that won’t let that happen. He is sick and, now, stupid. If he keeps coming around here, all it will do is prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that he is ill, and quite frankly, out of touch with reality. If he insists on inserting himself in future discussions, it just means he is delusional. Many will never take him remotely seriously, so what is the point of coming around here? I mean really, why does any normal person go where they are not wanted ? You have to be cracked to continually go where people are clearly against you and don’t want you around. The only reason to keep returning is to be an antagonist. Period. If that were my reason for being anywhere, then I deserve what I get when people get fed up with me. A deliberate and continual antagonist is not welcome anywhere where they play that role. Eventually they leave or get thrown out. And abusive antagonists generally get thrown out before they decide to leave. IMHO, ftg and MA have been waaayyy too kind to this snake for a long time.

  72. SoberPJ says:

    He couldn’t even leave gracefully. He had to leave because he got caught being totally dishonest and he is smart enough to know any modicum of credibility he may have been able to project was shot to hell, gone. But he couldn’t leave without some self-righteous finger wagging. How truly bizarre.

  73. DeConstructor says:

    ‘Anyway, fare thee well.’

    Sounds like a goodbye, but I don’t think JD will leave.

    To quote Ron White “I had the right to remain silent, but I did not have the ability”

    Perhaps Mondotuna will start posting here.

  74. AnnaZed says:

    I take it back; this is not boring.

    I sort of forgot about Lifering. I have noted that it is often listed as a secular alternative to AA, but my own experience reading the Lifering forums was that moderators often spoke in scarcely even veiled step-speak saying things like “…People need to work their way through aspects of their drinking experiences that continue to force them to feel shame and/or guilt” (that is a quote from Mondotuna to a 2-day sober newbie over there just days ago). I quickly thought, no thanks to that, but haven’t thought about that forum since. This, this bust is just astounding.

    To not just participate, posting your thoughts and perspective but to moderate a forum with these words as a central part of its mandate: ”…Please leave your Steps, Higher Powers, praying, preaching, and proselytizing at the door.” (though the capitalization choices there are certainly odd, don’t cha’ think?) while simultaneously being a doctrinaire stepper who believes that only through AA can people deal with alcohol abuse or alcohol dependence is mind-boggling in its mendacity and manipulative nastiness. Really, truly the mind reels. This is taking AA rigorous honesty™ to a whole other level.

    What would Margit think about this?

    This post should have a different name, something like Who Is Mondotuna? because people should be able to Google it.

    What it reminds us all of but which can’t really be repeated enough is never, ever trust anyone in AA, never. That Mondotuna/JD took information gleaned from a struggling person about something as serious as thoughts of suicide and instead of telling that person to immediately seek professional help he brought that information over to this forum to mock and humiliate the poster instead really tells you all that you need to know not just about him, but about AA too.

  75. zooromeo says:

    Funny how an “outside issue” such as this blog gets such forceful and consistent attention from an AA member like JD.

    May I suggest an *edit* to this line in the Big Book:

    “we will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace…”

    “..unless our name is JD.”

  76. JR Harris says:

    AnnaZed – Google already has thoroughly indexed this link. By JD actively posting here on this link he actually did it himself by sending so much traffic here. Anyone googling mondotuna will find this exact thread for the next few years.

    What amazes me is that his actions are exactly what we are trying to uncover on this site because of the dangers they cause. You can actually thank him for the comments he made on this thread, the “Keep Coming Back” thread and almost every thread on this site.

  77. hulahoop says:

    I am not understanding if the LifeRing forum in question is actually affiliated with the LifeRing program. Is that the case? If so, wasn’t JD recently dogging the success rate of the program in a post here? I can’t remember which thread…but he was challenging the blog owners here to come up with people who were sober for like seven years (or something like that) without AA.

  78. JR Harris says:

    I don’t know. But here is a good starting place to find out:

    https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/LifeRing_Secular_Recovery

  79. hulahoop says:

    Nevermind…I see the forum is most definitely affiliated with the LifeRing program. I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know much about the program itself. Not only does this recent discovery about JD/Mondotuna reinforce what I already knew about a lot of steppers…it makes me question the LifeRing program as well.

    Oh my.

  80. AnnaZed says:

    @hulahoop, Yes, the Lifering forum that JD acts as one of the only two moderators for is the official Lifering forum that links from the Lifering page and (yes) he was here just recently essentially trashing Lifering along with any alternatives to AA. Strange and disturbing as that may be, that is the case.

    I really do think that maybe some of the fine people who give their time as board members of Lifering http://lifering.org/the-organization/ might be interested to know just how mendacious and deranged one of their moderators is. I suppose that maybe it’s within their mandate to still be an AA member and act as a Lifering guru as well; though it is obviously insane.

    It’s interesting because from the moment I read the Lifering forums I recognized stepper manipulative crap on every page. Also, they have these crazy rules about never (ever) criticizing AA on the board, even in the “leaving AA” area of the board.

    That and that JD/Mondotuna took sensitive information about posters on the Lifering board and stalked those posters over the internet to other forums badgering them and humiliating them with sensitive (even life-threatening) information. That’s some serious shit there, and I’m guessing it is in violation of whatever agreements he made with them when he attained moderator status.

    just sayin’

    Someone upthread said that the whole thing is like a recovery version of spies and sleeper cells, but maybe Lifering is just a front for AA, run by AA members to keep tabs on people until they can reel them back in. Weirder things have happened in life.

    ::I’m not entirely jesting::

  81. hulahoop says:

    On a thread called “Leaving AA” or something like that, mondotuna says,”Welcome to the forum XXXXX, glad you showed up. I applaud your decision not to attend any further AA meetings, and look forward to watching your progress here.

    Wow! Just wow! WTF?

  82. MA says:

    hulahoop, I don’t know if the Lifering forum is affiliated or not. I can guarantee you that whoever put him in charge as a moderator has no idea that he comes here to slam that program. He uses his position there to stop any negative mention of AA, which he ironically referred to as “bad form.” Anna is right. Don’t trust any of these guys.

    These people in this Lifering forum trust that he is dealing with at least a hint of integrity which he is obviously not. Let’s keep focused on why JD is angry. It’s not because we broke trust with him, but because his worlds collided yesterday. He’s like the guy you see on the news who projects a certain, moral image; and then gets caught with a side life where he trolls places and takes advantage of others out of some sick, psychopathic desire to get his jollies. He used us as his outlet. He holds himself out in his Lifering and AA forums as a helpful soul, and comes here to mock people teetering on the brink of suicide. It’s really sick stuff. He said just yesterday he comes here get his jollies and laugh at people. Well, laugh at this, big boy.

    Apparently, now he has posted his last comment. Since I don’t believe a word he says, we’ll block him, just to make sure.

  83. AnnaZed says:

    Wow is right, I think that the pure scale of this deception is what is so impressive. He’s been the moderator of that forum for years!

  84. hulahoop says:

    MA, I don’t care if you block him or not. I used to wish you would, but now I don’t care. I would really like to see a link to the thread where he bashes the plan B programs and says nobody can put together any (quality) sobriety time without AA. I think he specifically mentions how ineffective (he feels) LifeRing is in that thread, but I could be wrong.

    I have no doubt the folks over at LifeRing will receive news of this thread. I think they should be able to easily access that thread to see his opinion on the plan B programs, including theirs. I am curious to see how they will handle this situation. It will show how much accountability exists within their program. Or at least on that Delphi forum that IS affiliated with their program.

    I just do not get this. It makes me sick and angry at the same time. I’ll admit, at first I thought it wasn’t cool of y’all to expose this. I had mixed emotions about it. Two wrongs don’t make a right and all of that. But then I realized what he had done. The depth and extent of his actions. There is no way y’all could not have mentioned it. He is in a trusted position over there and he abused that trust more than once. None of this ever would have happened if not for his own words and deeds. He brought it on himself. Then tried to use some stepper logic to put the blame everywhere else but where it belongs. Kind of like when the politician who has been caught red handed blames the reporter for breaking the story.

  85. MikeAugustine says:

    I’m glad you blocked him, MA. It’s best for everyone. He was truly a sociopath.

  86. AA Escapee says:

    My two cents. JD is not the only loud voice around working to undermine LifeRing’s original intent by injecting AA into it. If the LifeRing people do get around to reading this thread, I’d like to remind them of a rather LOUD member’s post in which she accidentally posted to the group (what she thought was private) that unless someone is willing to go to AA if no LR is available they do not have a snowball’s chance in hell of getting and staying sober. She is a group moderator for LR. This woman told ME to go to AA meetings. At this point I emailed the founder of LR (I had met him previously) to express my concern that LR not turn into some watered down version of AA. If this thread does make it over there, I do hope Martin N (the founder) gets wind of it. We do not need the JDs and people like this other woman ruining what he created.

    It’s a very small world after all and I would really like to see people like JD ousted from organizations like LR permanently or anywhere alternative recovery options are used.

  87. MA says:

    AA Escapee – are you a member of that forum?

  88. mikeblamedenial says:

    Is that a legitimate photo of him, Hitler-esque in sepia?

  89. BusBozo says:

    JD was really a fine example of many old-timers in AA. Most of us encountered them in our stint in the roomz, and that was one of many reasons that I left, He truly is a sick person; flaunting his self deluded superiority, while at the same time revealing (unknown to him) his nature as a manipulative control freak, and as a miserable little man.
    Doesn’t appear that the steps worked on him for his mental problems. The old “sober horse theif” syndrome once again rises.

  90. MikeAugustine says:

    @Mikeblame,

    I think the pic up top is a joke, but I do find it interesting that JD always alluded to England/Scotland when mentioning his back and forth travels to Europe. His LR profile however pegs him as spending his time in Germany when overseas. It makes me kind of wonder why he had to omit his connection to that country while playing up his anglo affiliations.

    I’m not trying to read into this too much. Naturally I could make some snarky comment about how Buchman had very close relations with the 3rd Reich and ended up retiring and dying in a German speaking country – JD might just be following the footprints in the sand. But at some level I am a little troubled by it. JD showed all the markings of a radical: the willingness to hurt others, lie when convenient, and to use subterfuge in pursuing his goals. Goebbels would be proud.

  91. SoberPJ says:

    Ya know, this is actually worthy of a news story. It’s not big news, but it is news and controversy and drama. Somebody would pick it up and run with it… and should. It would start discussions of some really good topics.

  92. Primrose says:

    Maia Szalavitz?

  93. Jonny Quest says:

    Since that LifeRing forum is officially linked to from the LifeRing site, Perhaps a few direct links to JD’s more memorable posts on Stinkin’ Thinkin’ – preferably ones in which he mentions LifeRing – on this thread would sum it up nicely.

    Then someone could e-mail a link to this thread and an short explanation to LifeRing at service@lifering.org

  94. causeandeffect says:

    All the alternative recovery groups should be notified about him and his IP. No doubt he’s infiltrated more than LifeRing. What really creeps me out is the question, what was the significance of the end of Nov? Has he been undermining people’s efforts to get sober and that was a deadline date for some kind of failure rate? I mean, was he creating a failure rate within LifeRing so he could come here and gloat? Or even more sinister, what he trying to create a suicide rate within LifeRing? Whatever his intentions, they were certainly sinister.

    It’s still unfathomable that he’s projecting the blame onto ftg and MA. and attacking their character as well as everyone else here, when he’s so clearly has been hiding this and part of him must know it’s dead wrong, or else he would have no objections. It’s the AA, “It doesn’t matter what I’ve done, nothing wrong with me, something wrong with you if you don’t like what I’ve done, go do a step 4 and write about it” kind of bullshit. And he truly believes that he can merely claim ignorance of impropriety in his behavior and owes no amends. Unbelievable!!!!

    I have to say again that in my opinion, outing JD was the only responsible thing to do and most definitely NOT an invasion of his privacy.

  95. SoberPJ says:

    This situation is festering in me a little bit. Some of the main characterisitics of a recovery forum moderator should be empathy, followed by kindness and reinforced by professionalism and qualifications. Like a really good nurse. When I think back to some of the statements he has made, like relapsers are “common as dirt” and many others, it blows me away that he would be a substance abuse forum moderator and then it is unthinkable that he is a clandestine moderator that hides his true attitudes in a position of trust with life and death issues. He truly has a rabid pro AA agenda, and once trust is broken, people automatically try to determine the degree of behavior that equates to that broken trust. Hence, c&e’s comment above about subtly creating a LR failure rate. Given the degree of his caustic and abusive behavior here, is that an absurd proposition? Possibly not.

    I consider outing him a public service before he could do any more damage.

  96. Lucy says:

    People like JD want to be the center of the universe, and alienate anyone who doesn’t want to orbit around him. When someone doesn’t do what he wants, he dresses them down, and, when they respond, he says, “Who? Me?”

    He is like every lonely, sad oldtimer I ever met in AA. He has nothing but sober time and narcissism.

  97. Jonny Quest says:

    causeandeffect says: “All the alternative recovery groups should be notified about him and his IP. No doubt he’s infiltrated more than LifeRing.”

    He probably has infiltrated others. He is obviously also on SoberRecovery, as evidenced by this post of his:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/05/23/why-sw0rcery-left-aa/#comment-57879

    He must have logged on to SoberRecovery and done a quick search for FrothyJay’s posts after a certain date. Non-Members on SR cannot do this.

    While his methods at subversion are repugnant, and he got caught, one can’t deny that they would be effective.

  98. JR Harris says:

    Does anyone know if JD or mondotuna on Lifering has ever used the slogans, “We are only as sick as our secrets” or “Guilt is the gift that keeps on giving?”

  99. Disclosure says:

    Muckraking extraordinaire!

  100. SoberPJ says:

    If this gets the attention it deserves, the folks at LR have a real situation on their hands. JD is probably embedded in their organization, “friends” with many of the people there and he doesn’t have many choices right now –

    1. Wait and see if something happens.
    2. Be pre-emptive.

    What would pre-emptive look like… “hey guys, just want to let you know there might be a little issue with those commies over at stinkin-thinkin.com. It’s no big deal really. Could I get the admin password for the forum archives? I just want to clean up some of the bad language we have on there. It doesn’t look good to new people.”

    They can not trust him from this moment forward – with anything. But, now what do they do?

  101. Pogue Mahone says:

    His picture is no longer up at LifeRing or aamolly. He must be hiding now..will be interesting to see what he has to say over at those sites in the future.

  102. causeandeffect says:

    His personal information on LifeRing is disgusting.

    Sexual Orientation
    always points North/Northwest

    WTF!?! How creepy and gross!!!

    JQ, I had missed that part of Sw0rcery’s thread. He’s definitely obsessed!!! It makes one wonder what all he’s done and how long he’s been doing it. I still wonder what is the significance of Nov?

  103. SoberPJ says:

    Oh, he has serious damage control to do. He will be busy at that for a while. He has to cover his tracks as best he can, but it will be real difficult in this new web world he has been using as his personal gaslighting chamber. Then he can start plotting his revenge, and you can bet he will. He’s that kind of loving, self-less spiritual giant that gives back twice what he gets. He’s finished. He always runs the risk of, “hey, aren’t you the same guy that was pretending to be a secular Life Ring moderator but was really a rabid AA that was all abusive and demeaning on other forums? I can’t trust you! ” That will follow him for years and he knows it. If his AA crowd finds out, his honesty quotient will go down a few notches and there are some who will stop talking to him because they didn’t know he was doing the Life Ring thing, and they HATE Life Ring. Then what can he say… ” no, really I was a Life Ring moderator to try to steer people into AA.. I’m on your side.” He’s totally screwed. Just one of life’s little squeezes he brought on himself and my, my, look at all the other people he has affected with his little, harmless charade? Totally time for a 4th, 5th and 9th. But, if somebody died because of his nonsense, he should be put away. If people went to Life Ring looking for help and he messed them up, there may be serious problems. If I was the Life Ring founder, I’d be on the phone to my attorney trying to determine the degree of exposure from this guy, stat !

  104. AnnaZed says:

    @AA Escapee [who says] ~ “…JD is not the only loud voice around working to undermine LifeRing’s original intent by injecting AA into it. If the LifeRing people do get around to reading this thread, I’d like to remind them of a rather LOUD member’s post in which she accidentally posted to the group (what she thought was private) that unless someone is willing to go to AA if no LR is available they do not have a snowball’s chance in hell of getting and staying sober. She is a group moderator for LR. This woman told ME to go to AA meetings.”

    Is this Margit you are talking about? There are only two moderators and both of them have been guruing away there for years.

    and “… At this point I emailed the founder of LR (I had met him previously) to express my concern that LR not turn into some watered down version of AA.”

    What happened?

  105. JR Harris says:

    If JD (AKA mondotuna) is a very computer literate Stepper, November could be associated with the expiration of the domain name of lifering.org. Hackers attempt to gain control of the DNS registration of sites when they lapse. Does anyone know if he has any pull with the website administrators of Lifering?

    Domain ID:D612624-LROR
    Domain Name:LIFERING.ORG
    Created On:06-Nov-1997 05:00:00 UTC
    Last Updated On:15-Apr-2010 00:23:59 UTC
    Expiration Date:05-Nov-2012 05:00:00 UTC <————- Look Here
    Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)

  106. insane says:

    JD busted. I found it odd he didnt use AA slogans in what he said most AAs always seem to use a few. What does ” mondotuna ” mean. Big fish?

  107. AnnaZed says:

    @JR Harris, that is very interesting information.

    Here are the contact emails for the interested parties:

    LifeRing Founder and CEO 1997-2010: Marty Nicolaus: manicolaus@gmail.com

    Members of the LifeRing Inc. Board of Directors

    Dru Boyd: service@lifering.org
    Kathleen Gargan: mllechose@msn.com
    Lauretta Magill: service@lifering.org
    Joe Mott: service@lifering.org
    Tim Reith: service@lifering.org
    Steve Snyder: service@lifering.org
    Njon Weinroth: service@lifering.org
    Craig Whalley: service@lifering.org
    Carola Ziermann: carola@lifering.org

    Current officers of LifeRing Inc. are:

    Craig Whalley, Executive Director: service@lifering.org
    Tim R., Secretary: service@lifering.org
    Robert Stump, Treasurer: rstumper@gmail.com
    Kathleen Gargan, Outreach Coordinator: service@lifering.org
    Steve S., Online Region Representative: service@lifering.org
    Mona H., Northeast US Region Representative: service@lifering.org
    Njon W., San Francisco Bay Area Region Representative: service@lifering.org
    Bob O., Greater California Region Representative: service@lifering.org

  108. SoberPJ says:

    Life Ring is playing with fire if they don’t fix the JD issue right away. At their convener conference in Hawaii, they even got a guy running for Lieutenant Governer to give a talk. Politics being what it is, JD could give a black eye to more than LR. It could affect supporters as well. If I was supporting LR and knew the whole stroy around JD’s behavior, I’d question the organization itself. How could they not know this was going on? I wonder if JD is on the board too? A traitor in the midst.

    I’m done for a while on this one, but I will be notifying a few more writers in the meantime. This has to get press coverage somewhere.

  109. hulahoop says:

    JD says Lucy et al, I’ve never lied in any post I’ve made. If you believe that’s so, you’re in error.

    As far as it being a private blog, it’s pretty accessible to the public, wouldn’t you agree?

    I planned a good laugh in Nov about ST referring people to the non-AA forum I help out with, but doing it this early was a decision I was not involved in, and I take offense with those who took it on themselves to violate my privacy to this degree. That’s not something you or I or I believe most people would do.

    I’m not sure yet exactly what I’m going to do about it, but it’s a principle of min to always give better than I get.

  110. MikeAugustine says:

    LOL, so much for pissing on an anthill. Now he’s buried up to his neck, surrounded by fire ants.

  111. SoberPJ says:

    Thanks AZ, they have been notified. Now, JD will disrupt their organization because they will have to spend time listening to his side of the story and try to figure out what is true and what is bullshit. Just like we have to do when he visited here. Some people are like that. They can’t help themselves. The bb calls them tornadoes in peoples lives. Little did they know the wind doesn’t stop blowing around certain types of people even though they get “sober”.

  112. AnnaZed says:

    It does not appear that JD/Mondotuna is a LifeRing Board member, but hey you never know. The more I contemplate this then more outrageous and disturbing I find the implications of JD/Mondotuna’s years long deception and high ranking embedded position at Lifering. That’s interesting that he removed his photo. That photo was about the only thing that he had going for him because in the picture he doesn’t appear to be insane. Now that I think of it I wonder what they were thinking having a forum moderator who lives overseas and thus can not at anytime attend a LifeRing meeting and about whom they can in effect know nothing but what he says are the facts about himself.

  113. pierre13 says:

    Never in the field of human conflict was so much posted by so many to so few.

  114. SoberPJ says:

    Cute Pierre, but you have no idea how many people visit this site and what they read. None.

  115. JR Harris says:

    The big question still hasn’t been answered. What was JD (aka mondotuna and Jerry) planning to do in November on the Lifrering recovery forum that has to do with Stinkin Thinkin?

  116. AnnaZed says:

    This from a poster who actually uses the word “retard” in online postings (Hi Pierre!).

  117. 13steppierre says:

    You picked “SoberPJ” as your user name and an icon of what must be The Brown Eye of Sauron, and I’m the one without a clue?

  118. BusBozo says:

    “but it’s a principle of min to always give better than I get.”
    Spoken like one who “lets go and lets god”, who believes “resentments are the number one offender”, who has transcended into “the fourth dimension”.Ah, but “progress not perfection”, I forgot.

  119. Just in case: Please don’t post any personally identifiable information here.

    What’s relevant here is that JD is Mondotuna — a persona who spent his time here:

    Trying to discredit people like Ken Ragge, Stanton Peele, and most recently Steven Slate by spreading rumors and making insinuations based on what incomplete information he has.

    Ridiculing people for leaving AA for “plan B” programs and disparaging these programs, in threads like this:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/why-i-left-aa-stinkin-thinkin-stories/comment-page-42/#comment-48700

    Here’s a quote from this thread: http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/03/05/it-works-if-you-work-it/comment-page-1/#comment-37392 — but the whole thing is worth a read to get an idea of the contempt he holds for Lifering:

    Really? Here’s a suggestion to see how completely wrong you are…visit the plan b programs and ask for the 10-no, make it easy on them-7 year people to come forward who haven’t pilled or weeded up and have been off booze for that miniscule length of time and haven’t done AA.

    Find me just 10 of them at Smart. Find me 10 of them at SOS. Find me even 7 at LifeRing.

    There should be lots, because they wanted to quit and were ready to not drink, and since these plan bs rely on good science and will probably someday issue stats there should be a flock of them. Since these alcoholics (oh, just alcoholics please…no one cares about the toenail-biters or procrastinators who found their answer at Smart) were ready to quit they should be around somewhere there, or at least rumors about them if nothing else.

    And he used his JD persona to expose information about regulars here that he was privy to on other forums, thereby creating a power imbalance: He knows who they are, but he won’t reveal who he is. He taunted someone whom he knew to have been suicidal, and said that he had actually helped save his life, and hid behind his JD handle to do it. He quoted another regular directly — probably from the AA forum — in order to taunt him or her here. And he doesn’t see how it could have possibly hurt that particular person to come here and quote him/her while, again, shielding his own identity.

    And he did all this while holding a position as a trusted moderator at Lifering, and an upstanding AA old-timer on the AA forum, under the handle “mondotuna”.

    Who this guy is in his personal life is not relevant, and I hope we can keep that stuff out of the conversation. He wasn’t “outed” as a private person. JD was outed as “mondotuna” — a handle with a trusted reputation on Lifering and AA, which he violated here.

  120. AnnaZed says:

    pierre13 /13steppierre ~ Why do you have two log-ins? Are you posting from a castle in Scotland?

  121. JR Harris says:

    13steppierre are you pierre13? If you are, you are under a different email address because gravatar did not change your avatar on your previous posts. You are using the the same avatar on your post of May 30, 2011, 9:45 am of superman putting ketchup on something that pierre13 asked for.

  122. hulahoop says:

    Uh oh! It looks like they have one less forum host over at LifeRing.

  123. Jonny Quest says:

    JD’s farewell message to the LifeRing forum:

    LifeRing & Forum Announcements – it’s been a pleasure

    From: Mondotuna 2:03 pm
    To: ALL (1 of 1)
    MSG # 2725.1


    Hey guys, just a heads up.

    I got angry at the things being said about AA members and the AA program at an anti-AA site and for months posted things to make them feel bad and disrupt their efforts, doing my best to be caustic, ridicule them, and was sometimes very mean in my comments.

    Not my best behavior ever, and it wound up badly when I was outed as one of the moderators here. Nothing discussed by any LR member was used in my comments over there. In promoting AA to them I was several times dismissive of LifeRing, which I do feel is the very best of the alternatives to AA and the one I’d likely have chose to get sober with had it been around back then.

    So now the members of that site are beginning to show up here to give me some payback for being nasty there. That’s bad for LR and bad for you.

    To minimize that disruption, and so to not turn this forum into a angry battleground I’m resigning my post, and asking Margit to take up the slack created until another member can step in. Kind of a drag to do it this quickly but it appears needs be. If others weren’t involved I’d happily handle it differently, as I’ve always been willing to hash things out but this forum isn’t a place for conflict.

    I’ve enjoyed serving and being a part of LR getting moving in a solid and positive direction. Never did I try to convince any new person that they should instead go to AA as I did long ago, my pattern was quite the opposite as I believe you each know to be true.

    So, I regret going overboard on the anti site in that my actions place me in the position of having to leave you now. I’ve enjoyed knowing you and wish each of you the best.

    To those who wanted my blood for how I played with your feelings, you’ve now got it. No reason to bother these good people here any further.

    Take care ‘Ringers-Jerry

  124. SoberPJ says:

    Tip of the iceberg ..

  125. MikeAugustine says:

    He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day.

  126. Jonny Quest says:

    JD/Mondotuna says: “I got angry at the things being said about AA members and the AA program at an anti-AA site and for months posted things to make them feel bad and disrupt their efforts, doing my best to be caustic, ridicule them, and was sometimes very mean in my comments.”

    Here’s a few more examples:

    JD discussing how much “FUN” it is to watch people relapse over and over and self destruct:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/neverending-thread/comment-page-67/#comment-56064

    JD making fun of Jack Trimpey:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/05/17/massiveattack-live-517-at-600-pst/comment-page-1/#comment-56314

    JD trying to undermine my approach to quitting, and having a laugh at the expense of “Richard,” who was having trouble:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/05/17/massiveattack-live-517-at-600-pst/comment-page-1/#comment-56351

    JD trying to instill fear into Monica/Massiveattack so that she does not warn more people about predators in the rooms of AA:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/05/17/massiveattack-live-517-at-600-pst/comment-page-1/#comment-56369

  127. SoberPJ says:

    From a legal perspective, this has to be very interesting –

    ” To those who wanted my blood for how I played with your feelings, you’ve now got it. No reason to bother these good people here any further.”

    One little section – “for how I played with your feelings.” Let’s get one thing very, very clear. Playing with someone’s feelings in a life or death situation for your own amusement and enjoyment is absolutely psychopathic. Was he testing how far he could push people before they went over the edge, and getting jollies out of it? No wonder he wants this over so quickly, the exposure is huge. Let me summarize the departure post – “Ohp, got caught, my bad, gotta run, no need to look any further” … like hell.

  128. Primrose says:

    Is he going to post any reference on the aa thread or the SOS thread that Pogue linked?

  129. AnnaZed says:

    Bawahaaahaa hhhhaaa, nice (but not enough).

    This of course

    ”… Nothing discussed by any LR member was used in my comments over there. …”

    is a lie; in fact I think that he may well have stalked LifeRing posters over to this site and that harassing them may have been his primary motivation is posting here so abusively and so often and refusing to leave.

    This is interesting and reads like a pretty classic AA amends in that it includes no apology at all or even actual acknowledgment of serious wrong-doing and harm:

    ”… In promoting AA to them I was several times dismissive of LifeRing, which I do feel is the very best of the alternatives to AA and the one I’d likely have chose to get sober with had it been around back then.”

    And this:

    ”… To those who wanted my blood for how I played with your feelings, you’ve now got it. No reason to bother these good people here any further. “

    is very pure AA and very pure JD. He seeks to control the outcome, seeks to define the parameters of the fall-out of his actions and belittles those he has harmed all in one sentence, nice!

    Unfortunately, I don’t think that things are gonna play out that way. I would actually venture a guess that legal matters might crop-up for LifeRing when it is found that their designated representative misused participant information about suicidal ideation to belittle, harass and mock them on a public forum. At the very least it is a massive black-eye for LifeRing; not a tiny storm in a teacup. JD/Mondtuna pointed out recently that over 9,000 people had read Margit’s blog in (I think) the last year ~ ergo visited the site; that’s a lot of people to be fucking with.

  130. Mona Lisa says:

    Stunning. He doesn’t even have the grace to be embarrassed!

  131. SoberPJ says:

    One more little detail. If LR is a moderated forum, there would never have to be anything said about the issue on LR. Right? It’s fully moderated. Posts don’t show until they are cleared by someone. So, it was a LR internal thing first. People started posting comments on JD and other moderators (one?) started reading the comments and asking, “um, are you JD at Stinkin-thinkin.com? You did what?” The sparks are probably already flying at LR as possibly evidenced by the fact that no one has replied to my email to them. No, “thank you, we’ll look into it”, or “go away”, just silence from what, 20 people? They should have let legal write his departure post, because he only dug the hole deeper with his further lies and admissions of playing with people’s feelings. They had a monster among them and didn’t know it. That has to sting.

  132. AnnaZed says:

    Yeah, this is gonna leave a mark.

  133. SoberPJ says:

    Prediction – by the end of this week, LifeRing will contact ftg or MA and ask them to take this thread down. All in the interest of peace, happiness, brotherhood, solidarity and substance abuse alternatives. Or, legal action. Whichever comes first.

  134. Jonny Quest says:

    The sad thing is, from reading some of JD’s posts, and even a small number of those under Mondotuna on the LifeRing forum, you can tell that he actually does know how “the drinking game” usually works.

    He does have insight into how people with drinking problems normally behave, and what is going on in their minds. He actually could use this knowledge to help individuals, rather than use it to undermine their confidence so that they will fail.

    He took a few shots at me, but not very many, because he knows very well that once you get the hang of AVRT, it has the unexpected side effect of exposing almost everything written in AA literature or said in AA to undermine people’s confidence and get them to drink again as an institutionalized form of the “Addictive Voice,” making me immune.

    He poked fun at the “Beast” concept, but he knows very well that the addictive voice exists, as do most substance abuse counselors, and all addicted and formerly-addicted people, even ex-smokers.

    This is why AA members often refer to “my alcoholic” and why LifeRing uses the “Alcoholic” versus “Sober” self analogy, which JD did ridicule in one of his posts.

    As a side note, Trimpey chose to call the source of the Addictive Voice “The Beast” because it is likely being driven by the base brain (“reptilian brain”), which even animals/beasts have, but also in reference to “The Beast” of the Bible, as, for example in Satan’s temptation of Christ in Matthew 4:5-11.

  135. DeConstructor says:

    Could JD/Mondotuna mean that Bernie Madoff has an internet connection in prison?

  136. soberbychoice says:

    Interesting time for this exposure to occur: The LifeRing annual conference is this coming weekend in Oakland. http://lifering.org/annualmeeting2011/

  137. MikeAugustine says:

    Interesting time for this exposure to occur: The LifeRing annual conference is this coming weekend in Oakland

    Look for the guy with a German accent wearing a kilt.

  138. Lucy says:

    FTG and Jonny Quest – Don’t forget me, the slack-jawed yokel whom the evil Friendthegirl has been manipulating from her inner sanctum.

    JD doesn’t think he is lying. He thinks we are over-reacting. He reminds me of the sponsors in AA who would dress down a newcomer, and then lecture him over “having a resentment” and “refusing help.” He seems to me like a pathetic loner, who thinks we all misunderstand him.

    Did you guys see the YOUTUBE movie dedicated to his 23rd sober celebration? It was set up to look like someone else posted it, but it has been taken down.

  139. Jonny Quest says:

    He’s starting to get responses to his “farewell” – suppose it’s only a matter of time before someone responds with a link to this thread.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.2

  140. Mona Lisa says:

    I have a slightly different read on JD. I don’t think he’s a loner and I don’t think he cares to be understood as much as he desires to manipulate. I think he has a personality disorder–narcissistic and/or antisocial. To JD, people are not people: they are objects to be exploited to give him what he wants, which is attention. He doesn’t care who he hurts, or what the consequences to them may be; it’s all about him and his need for attention, and he lacks the moral center to feel guilt or remorse. That’s why he seems so blind: he’s operating on an entirely different moral and emotional platform than most people.

  141. SoberPJ says:

    He has no clue …

    Jerry, I saw you handle a difficult newcomer with admirable restraint a month or so ago and I thought, I’m glad you’re here as moderator. (both you and Margit worked well in tandem, like a Bouncer and a cooler.) Your views on AA are known to us and I don’t see the harm of taking a more combattive line in a forum dedicated to conflict on that particular subject. Anyway, I wish you would reconsider resigning and We’ll deal with any fallout as it happens.

    Michael

  142. insane says:

    What is the connection between JD/ Mondotuna and Petra at LifeRing ? Wife?

  143. JR Harris says:

    I think that the main problem here is the 1936 book originally copyrighted by Bill Wilson (aka William Griffith Wilson) as “Alcoholics Anonymous” in the original multilith manuscript published by Works Publishing Co.,17 Williams St.,Newark, N.J. The copyright has expired on that document. The current “big book” is a edited version of that book and is following the same principals. It has sent everyone who reads it on the same path of manipulating “prospects”. In Chapter 7 “WORKING WITH OTHERS” starting on page 41:

    1. ) Lets make a sport out of manipulating people. Page 41 original multilith manuscript .

    “The kick you will get is tremendous. To watch people come back to life, to see them help others, to watch loneliness vanish, to see a fellowship grow up about you, to have a host of friends — this is an experience you must not miss. We know you will not want to miss it. Frequent contact with newcomers and with each other is the bright spot of our lives.”

    2. ) Don’t listen to Doctors or Priest because they don’t know what they are talking about and be very sneaky about it. Page 41 original multilith manuscript.

    “Don’t start out an an evangelist or reformer. Unfortunately a lot of prejudice exists. You will be handicapped if you arouse it. Preachers and doctors don’t like to be told they don’t know their business. They are usually competent and you can learn much from them if you wish, but it happens that because of your own drinking experience you can be uniquely useful to other alcoholics. So cooperate; never criticise. To be helpful should be your only aim.”

    3 ) If you don’t catch a good alcoholic to play with find another one. Page 44 original multilith manuscript.

    “Do not be discouraged if your prospect does not respond at once. Search out another alcoholic and try again. You are sure to find someone desperate enough to accept with eagerness what you offer. It’s a waste of time and poor strategy to keep chasing a man who cannot or will not work with you. If you leave such a person alone, in all likelihood he will begin to run after you, for he will soon become convinced that he cannot recover alone. To spend too much time on any one situation is to deny some other alcoholic an opportunity to live and be happy. One of our fellowship failed entirely with his first half dozen prospects. He often says that if he had continued to work on them, he might have deprived many others, who have since recovered, of their chance.”

    4 ) Keep trying to get the one you let go by manipulating his friends and family. Page 44 original multilith manuscript.

    “Though an alcoholic does not respond, there is no reason why you should neglect his family. You should continue to be friendly to them in every way. The family should be offered your way of life. Should they accept, and practice spiritual principles, there is a much better chance the head of the family will recover. And even though he continues to drink, the family will find life more bearable.”

    5 ) Get the family to leave him and then play with him a while. Page 45 original multilith manuscript.

    “Let no alcoholic say he cannot recover unless he has his family back. This just isn’t so. In some cases the wife will never come back for one reason or another. Remind your prospect that his recovery is not dependent upon people. It is dependent upon his relationship with God. We have seen men get well whose families have not returned at all. We have seen others slip when the family came back too soon.”

    The current “big book” has been revised telling the followers of Bill Wilson in Chapter 7, how to get them hospitalized and arrested if they don’t start chanting Bill Wilson. Very sick.

  144. Mona Lisa says:

    Hmmmmm…..he says that JD’s views on AA are known to the LR community….but I wonder if they are aware of his views on LR (“betcha can’t show me even 7 people who’ve recovered with LR”)?

    Oh well, who really knows what his views are, anyway? I wonder if even HE knows.

  145. insane, let’s stay out of his private life… I don’t mean to land on you, I just want to make sure that we’re focused on the relevant issue. I also want to make sure it’s clear that we don’t have an issue with Lifering. We suggested it to a lot of people who have come through here and keep a link to them in our resources.

    I feel bad that JD saw us recommend Lifering to people, and perhaps even ridiculed them over here for considering it and certainly ridiculed us for suggesting that sorry “plan b” option, and at the same time he was over there waiting to welcome them to the Lifering forum.

    But we’re out for blood.

  146. Lucy says:

    MonaLisa – I agree 1000% with you. By “loner.” I meant someone who has lots of acquaintances but no one who knows who he really is.

    I know an ex con turned dependency counselor who would tell these stories in meetings about his children and how he found all these insights into his sobriety from what they said. I thought that the stories sounded familiar, and, about a week later, I realized that I had read them in the inspirational section of the Reader’s Digest at my dentist’s office.

    The ex con was later sent back to prison for practicing therapy without proper credentials. In his trial, the prosecutor showed that he had originally joined AA in prison as a way to shorten his sentence, and, in doing so, figured out how to fake his license so that he could make money as a therapist. The prosecutor could find no evidence that he ever had a drinking problem.

    When JD yacked, he sounded like that ex con. He had no depth of understanding the problems of AA, alcoholism, LR, or anything else. He just seemed to be talking to an imaginary audience whom he thought believed him.

    Just like that ex con.

    .

  147. JR Harris says:

    How can we help the members of LifeRing to get over this? They have lost a member that was highly regarded, who has been living a double life and they probably do not realize that they have been being manipulated. What would be some good answers to give them.

    My answer to that would be that since a 12 Step program is not what you want, don’t let this incident get in the way of you and the life you want to change. Continue what you are doing. You had a person giving you advice that was living a double life but he is no longer there. You still have a community and should stick with it, if it is helping you.

  148. Primrose says:

    Pogue posted this on the first page.
    http://forums.delphiforums.com/sosdiscussion/messages/?msg=249.1

    I don’t know what b and c is, Pogue. There is practically no one there, but it is another ‘aa alternative’ that JD is on.

  149. Lucy says:

    FTG – With respect to the problem of referring people to LR (and then having them potentially manipulated by a LR “authority”, have you thought about addiing a disclaimer in your FAQ about the “Addiction Recovery Resources” section? Something that says that you aren’t specifically recommending them but that some of your members have found helpful information on them? (yes, I know I sound like a lawyer…)

    The purpose of this blog is not to tell people how to stop drinking, but a portion of the posters are people looking for alternatives to AA. It would seem that those are the ones who are at risk for predatory actions by the JDs of the world, and maybe there is a way to let them know that there is risk in all internet sites where private information is displayed

  150. Jonny Quest says:

    I agree with FTG – let’s leave his private life out of it – it would be in truly bad taste.

    I am speculating here, but I can’t imagine that the LifeRing People, whose forum states “Please leave your Steps, Higher Powers, praying, preaching, and proselytizing at the door” suspected that JD/Mondotuna had a hidden agenda.

    No more than the AA group in Natrona Heights, PA knew the agenda of Mark D. Baum (aka “Dr. Bomb”) from the ARID site when they made him their treasurer.

    I would venture to guess that JD/Mondotuna/Jerry resigned as moderator of the LifeRing forum because he knew that they would remove him if he did not.

  151. Jonny Quest says:

    Lucy says: “The purpose of this blog is not to tell people how to stop drinking, but a portion of the posters are people looking for alternatives to AA. It would seem that those are the ones who are at risk for predatory actions by the JDs of the world, and maybe there is a way to let them know that there is risk in all internet sites where private information is displayed.”

    Some forum sites post this article where it is clearly visible with other main links – perhaps it could be done here on Stinkin’ Thinkin’.

    “Protecting Yourself Online: Forum Chat and Instant Messengers: Ultimate Responsibility for Your Safety or that of Your Minor Children Rests with You”

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/20345/protecting_yourself_online_forum_chat.html

    http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewArticle.asp?id=13284

  152. MA says:

    I’m going to agree with Jonny in agreeing with FTG. Please don’t post any personal information.

  153. Pogue Mahone says:

    Primrose,
    JD had referred to the “alternitives” as B&C plans or something to that effect here at ST in the past. It’s crazy how he has spread himself to these other groups like he has. I have a hunch that more Google searches will turn up other forums that he is involved in.

  154. Primrose says:

    (@JQ; I am dying to know the reception that Mark Baum got when he read his goodbye speech. Can anyone put me out of my misery? Cheers)

  155. Primrose says:

    Thanks Pogue.

  156. Lucy, Thanks, I was just mulling this over… How to handle the resources list. I think the disclaimer is a good idea.

    This all is making me feel a little sick, and I would absolutely remove Lifering from our resources if I knew that JD was going to stay on there as a moderator.

    He claims that he never exploited the people over there, but every time he disparaged LR or ridiculed the community over there, as a whole — as a bunch of people who can’t cobble together any sober time — with information he couldn’t have been privy to without being trusted by the community, reading people’s private blogs and message board comments, chats, mailing lists, etc, he was exploiting them.

  157. Jonny Quest says:

    Primrose says: (@JQ; I am dying to know the reception that Mark Baum got when he read his goodbye speech. Can anyone put me out of my misery? Cheers)

    He posted a small description of their reaction on his main site. I don’t think he ever put up an entire article as promised.

    Scroll down to “2008/10/25 – Five-Year Coin Acceptance Speech”

    http://thearidsite.tripod.com/ARIDNEWS.HTM

  158. Rick045 says:

    Mona Lisa wrote – “Oh well, who really knows what his views are, anyway? I wonder if even HE knows.”

    I wondered that on several occasions. He may not even know who “JD” is apart from the identity that AA has given him. I met plenty of people in the rooms like that. He knew that many here had spent years in AA and weren’t going to be convinced of anything, but he never stopped trying. The more he tried, the more it seemed like he was trying to convince himself.

  159. JR Harris says:

    Here is the Mark D. Baum (a.k.a. dr.bomb) Five-Year Coin Acceptance Speech” (Available on PDF format and HTML)

    http://thearidsite.tripod.com/AR081025.HTM

    Good example of the documentation you should gather if you are Leaving AA here:

    http://thearidsite.tripod.com/ARTICLES.HTM

  160. Primrose says:

    (thanks for the Mark Baum update; has been bugging me for ages)

  161. DeConstructor says:

    Why do I feel like I am in the middle of a revolution.

    Should I bring a pitchfork or a torch????

  162. JR Harris says:

    “There was none among the myriads of men that existed who would pity or assist me; and should I feel kindness towards my enemies? No: from that moment I declared everlasting war against the species, and, more than all, against him who had formed me and sent me forth to this insupportable misery.” – Frankenstein 1818 (novelist Mary Shelley)

  163. Pogue Mahone says:

    I’ll try not to flood but here is another. How very sneaky of him.
    http://forums.delphiforums.com/sosdiscussion/messages/?msg=256.1

  164. Primrose says:

    You have done a great job, PM.
    WE read this whole thread today and it reminded us both of this pastiche of the apology that a children’s tv presenter nearly made after he was pictured snorting coke.

  165. Lucy says:

    FTG & MA – Years ago, I was in an online AA group which started as a private e mail group. I knew most of the people in it, and the only controversy in it was about what day the topic should be posted. I didn’t agree with everything that was said, but I never fought with any one.

    The group decided to put up a link on the OIAA, and everything immediately changed. The combination of the anonymity of the internet and the personalities of people like JD tended to make every e mail a screaming flame. It was as if certain people had just been looking for a forum to bully people, and it got so ugly that everyone from the original group quit.

    The interesting thing was that the controversy just made the group get bigger. There were, to my surprise, people that like AA because it gives them a chance to be the center of attention.

    I have to imagine that online Life Ring, SOS, SMART, and all of those groups are occasionally subject to a similar dynamic, just as this blog was during the melodrama over the community pages. I just think it’s a function of the subject matter and the open forum.

    To me, the most important thing is that FTG and MA make sure that they protect themselves as owners of the blog from maliicious tampering. After that, it might be appropriate to post both a disclaimer about putting up personal information and that the resource links are suggestions, not endorsements.

    Honestly, right now there is a lot of emotion, but anyone who got to know JD on this site saw through him. The hope is that the people on Life Ring do the same thing. And, if they don’t, well, aren’t experiences like that in AA the way we all got here?

    I just don’t know that you can ever fully protect yourself from nut jobs in a public forum.

  166. Pogue Mahone says:

    Primrose,
    It looks like you posted a video however I can not see it on this computer I’m on. I don’t even see the avatars here so I will look at it when I get to the comp lab at school tommorow. I notice there is a search engin at those Delphi forums but I cant seem to get it to work.

  167. JR Harris says:

    Could it be that AA was designed to be a few people talking around a coffee table, and not the HUGE corporate run conglomerate it is today with the courts, rehabs and individual members actively recruiting new recruits? I can see where a family and friends could use it as a self help book and not cause too many new problems. It is when people with “outside issues” get involved that causes the majority of the problems.

    I think AA has just grown too big and everyone is trying to force it on everyone else. It all boils down to the money being made by Rehabs, sober houses, 12 Step addiction specialists and members trying to make a quick profit. Has anyone ever looked at thier own community and figured out how many resources make thier money off of just one intergroup?

  168. violet says:

    i agree with Mike Augustine. I adore so much about this site; however, I do not like how it almost seems like some people get off on shitting on the trolls. Let it go, and let’s talk amongst ourselves. I see no reason to let negative mean people speak so that we only get pist at them. It seems a waste of energy. It really does…

  169. violet says:

    The ARid site is mentioned above. I am not ok with the Arid site’s ideas on Harm Reduction, not ok at all. In fact, I believe that Harm Reduction, for many people–particularly opiate addicts, is the absolute ONLY way.

  170. JR Harris says:

    I agree with you agreeing with Mike. I think we have already discussed this enough.

  171. Primrose says:

    @ Violet;, would you give me, off the top of your head, the top six ‘altenatives to aa’ that you woud recommend? I have just read some of Mark Baus’s stuff and he seems to regard SMART(tm) as in need of some investigation. I am not sure what to believe. I tend to think that just giving options gives the concept of options.

    I suppose we will have schisms on st. It is inevitable. But there is no way that aa will survive unless they can uninvent the internet.

  172. Jonny Quest says:

    Primrose says: “I suppose we will have schisms on st. It is inevitable. But there is no way that aa will survive unless they can uninvent the internet.”

    I think AA will survive, it just may not have the clout it has now. There will always be true believers, and those who like the program for some reason.

    It can always reinvent itself with an updated “Big Book” if things get really painful and that cash flow is interrupted from all that “court slip” traffic.

    The problem they would have with re-writing the “Big Book” is that it would create an instant schism in AA, particularly since the copyright to the first and second edition is invalid, so they are very reluctant to do it.

    AAWS made a big mistake taking some people to court for publishing their own “Big Books” – all it did was establish that they let the copyright on it expire, and that people can get their copies elsewhere.

  173. Disclosure says:

    FTG, MA, All,
    I think the disclosure should state that any recovery resource weather recommended here or elsewhere should be thoroughly investigated by the person considering it. Many alternatives may contain objectionable characteristics or be subject to human manipulation. Under no circumstances should anyone blindly turn their will over to another or expect any other human being to exercise due diligence on their behalf.

    PS. I love it Lucy, it is after all…
    Disclosure!

  174. Disclosure says:

    CRAP! whether

  175. mikeblamedenial says:

    I mentioned on another blog that these characters are not representative of AA, but are rather just anti-anti-AA trolls. The genuine grievances against the 12-step movement, its methods, dogma, doctrine, quack psychology, outcomes, coercion, religiosity, and self-contradictions can and do fill volumes. These strokes come along and take the focus entirely off the program and the damage done, and put that focus squarely on their flames, taunts, insults and back-channel manipulations, all under the guise of prototypical AA behaviours. JD, Diablo, Andie, Amerikasend, quickcap, rimshot and the multitude of other trolls who have come and gone these past few years on this and other boards are about as representative of AA thought and practice as I am. They take up bandwidth and attention and at the end of it all, leave a much more quiet, less active board. If you don’t believe me, look at the message count history here:
    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/
    The large volume months were typically flame fests involving the JD types (who was actually there several times), with the end result being the near extinction of a board which eventually turned upon itself.

  176. JR Harris says:

    Look at this pro-AA group that started in 2002 and the numbers on it. They have 2344 members, but lately only get about 50 messages a month. Only in 9 months did they make 100 or more posts………just barely.

    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

  177. causeandeffect says:

    Violet, with all due respect, I disagree. This subject should not be dropped. JD should not be allowed to get away with this. We here have all seen his true nature–the ugly side. He’s fully exposed himself here, but at LifeRing he’s putting on a false persona in order to gain trust so he can con people and take advantage of their vulnerabilities. For this reason, it should be fully documented here how vile a person he truly is. It may sting for them now, but they can begin to deprogram and heal from whatever damage was done to them.

    While I’ve been offended by the malice he’s shown towards others, I’ve been unaffected by his shots at me personally, but only because I could see through him so clearly. That won’t be the case for those in Lifering who he’s apparently been able to gain trust in.

    I came back into this discussion late and have been unable to read all the links. Did anybody post a link to JD’s comment regarding Lifering members getting drunk and disorderly in a hospital, which caused a split off into SOS. I don’t know if this is common knowledge or even true, but LifeRing needs to know JD has said this.

    But Violet, I do agree, harm reduction and moderation, while not for everyone, is a viable option for many and is one that should be available to them. Nobody that I know of, including Peele, is forcing those who need to abstain into trying to moderate, as has been suggested here. Everyone needs to look at all the options and realistically decide what is right for them. If you can moderate, fine. If you can’t, don’t continue destructive behavior and blame it on someone who is merely presenting the facts.

  178. Disclosure says:

    I only took JD seriously for a couple of posts, in my view he completely lacked credibility.

  179. @disclosurel: I’m making note of these ideas. I’m thinking now about creating a separate page for links so that I can put disclaimers. I have also been meaning to put together a list of mental health resources, which was AndyM’s excellent idea. I just have to find the time to pull that together.

    @mikeblame, I’m definitely taking this episode to heart.

    @c&e, I agree with you. I think violet (sorry to talk about you like you’re not here, v!) maybe didn’t read the whole thread to get an idea of the depth and meaning of the betrayal. That’s our fault though (I mean it’s MA’s fault, which is why I keep trying to ban that @#$%&!) We should really unpack the whole thing upfront and might update the post to do that.

  180. Jonny Quest says:

    mikeblamedenial says
    “These strokes come along and take the focus entirely off the program and the damage done, and put that focus squarely on their flames, taunts, insults and back-channel manipulations, all under the guise of prototypical AA behaviours…They take up bandwidth and attention and at the end of it all, leave a much more quiet, less active board… the end result being the near extinction of a board which eventually turned upon itself.”

    My thoughts were similar, but I wouldn’t be so sure that they are just trolls. Some, perhaps, but others are true believers, and they know what they are doing, as I explained here:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/keep-coming-back/comment-page-5/#comment-58707

    I could go on a general 12-Step forum and wreak similar havoc on morale by pretending to be a fundamentalist Big Book thumper.

    Destroying morale – subversion – was JD’s intention, and he admits as much in his farewell post:

    Mondotuna: “I got angry at the things being said about AA members and the AA program at an anti-AA site and for months posted things to make them feel bad and disrupt their efforts, doing my best to be caustic, ridicule them, and was sometimes very mean in my comments.

    That said, given the stated purpose of this blog, I think that it would be foolish not to expect them to try and do this.

  181. Sally says:

    I personally got the impression that JD initially underestimated all of you (us – if I can boldly consider myself a regular after only a month or so). There is a lot of knowledge and dedication here, not just a bunch of drunks with nothing better to do than try to discredit and undermine such an admirable program that we didn’t/couldn’t “work”. I never thought efforts concerning him deserved more than a kick in the pants – but I can be quite dismissive just on principle (arguing with the regular troll normally is just a waste of time, nothing gets accomplished).

    That being said, I agree entirely with Jonny’s quote (above) of mikeblamedenial. I remember watching Stalag 17 (b&w world war II film – a must see) and couldn’t quite understand why pow’s would spend such efforts on a seemingly fruitless efforts of escaping considering the risks involved. I learned the following however:

    Code of conduct rule: #3. “If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.”
    A POW’s escape or escape attempt(s) causes the enemy to divert forces and use resources that might otherwise be engaging in battle, deterring them from their primary goal.

    I think JD was diverting attention, however I don’t think it was his intention. He’s just too greedy and self centered, and never would have risked his own exposure if he really thought it was a possibility. I firmly believe that JD is reading every post in this thread diligently. He’s probably even trying to convince himself that he was doing it for some “cause” and deserves a medal for his efforts.

    In the end I’m glad he was exposed (and is now gone). He really is a bad person for trying to get his jollies at the expense of others, tsk tsk. That deserves more than a spanking….Good job peeps.

    Sally

  182. Primrose says:

    Is anyone going to the LifeRing conference in California this weekend?

  183. mikeblamedenial says:

    JR Harris said “Look at this pro-AA group that started in 2002 and the numbers on it. They have 2344 members, but lately only get about 50 messages a month. Only in 9 months did they make 100 or more posts………just barely.

    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

    That board is one of the most heavily-moderated on the net, with each and every post closely scrutinized prior to publication. If a post doesn’t satisfy AA doctrine and dogma, it doesn’t make it on the board. They are genuinely unconcerned with traffic volume.
    Awhile ago, I goaded them into posting a couple rebuttals to attacks some “respected AA researchers” had made against Orange, only to have them all removed a short time later after a couple resident revisionists protested. Art Sheehan was one who went absolutely bonkers, with comments which would have made JD stare in awe. Since then, none of my several posts have made it up.
    If you are looking for a pro AA board which is as hard on its own members as any anti-AA critic could be, check this one out.
    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/GSOwatch/?yguid=273237158

  184. mikeblamedenial says:

    “I could go on a general 12-Step forum and wreak similar havoc on morale by pretending to be a fundamentalist Big Book thumper.”
    No, the fundie moderators would block you after about the third or fourth questionable post. Been there, done that.

  185. AllyB says:

    Wow, I’ve just read through this thread and I’m absolutely sickened. It will be interesting to see how LifeRing react to this. While my initial problems with AA were all based on their philosophy in the last year I’ve discovered that how they work, specifically their utter lack of accountability, is just as problematic.

    While I don’t know a huge amount about LifeRing I respected their philosophy. But if they aren’t going to take charge when manipulative, dangerous creeps have taken and abused the privileged position they have gained over others through their organisation, then they aren’t an awful lot better than AA.

    How they react to JD’s actions will be the making or breaking of them. Do they take a stand in order to protect the vulnerable or do they refuse to take accountability and let the rot set in?

  186. mikeblamedenial says:

    Straight up questions, Ally. How is JD’s behaviour and treatment of members of Lifering any more reprehensible than the way he carried on with the vulnerable, impressionable and healing ex-AA members on this board? How can Lifering be held any more accountable for his carryings-on than we are?

  187. JR Harris says:

    mikeblamedenial – You are very right about the AA History Lovers Yahoo Group being extremely moderated. They even fight among themselves heavily. At the current time Dick B. is in a battle with Glenn F. Chesnut who is the author of “One of The Higher Power of the Twelve-Step Program: For Believers & Non-believers” a moderator of that group who has banned him. It is a very open battle where Dick B. claims that the reason he is banned is because Glenn Chesnut has no morals and says, “Where are your morals Glenn C??”. I believe that Dick B. is a fundamental Christian and well known author on AA related history materials. Here is where they openly fight his banning currently on the front page:

    http://www.aabibliography.com/

  188. ez says:

    Back when I was in middle school JD stood for juvenile delinquent. Seems it still does.

    What a tool.

  189. Jonny Quest says:

    It would seem he did have his fans on LifeRing, though…

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.5


    From: marylouise50 1:11 am
    To: Mondotuna
    2725.5 in reply to 2725.1

    Hi Jerry

    Resigning seems a bit hasty — I’m sure anyone turning up here will realise this is a different kind of forum. Trolling does rely on forum members taking the bait.

    Curious your need for online conflict. As you know there is no ‘need’ to defend AA (just another flawed, human and often useful self-help movement) and I doubt that was the reason. Reactive projections are very tempting online and it is easy to forget there may be angry, hurt or delusional men and women sitting alone somewhere at a keyboard being triggered by your games. The point is to help one another sober up but you know that too —

    I hope you stay.

    Mary in Africa

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.6


    From: Chionodoxia 5:45 am
    To: marylouise50
    2725.6 in reply to 2725.5

    I do not understand your need for online conflict either. Those people on st***** th***** are positively salivating. I have read the whole thread and I see that you have left that site.

    Why did you go there to discredit all other methods than AA? Including Lifering? It doesn’t make sense to me. You are a mainstay here to so many people. Why cause conflict elsewhere?

    Stick to what you are best at, Jerry, and leave the anti-aas to themselves.

  190. mikeblamedenial says:

    Little does she realize that Jerry IS sticking to what he is best at.

  191. AllyB says:

    @mikeblamedenial “Straight up questions, Ally. How is JD’s behaviour and treatment of members of Lifering any more reprehensible than the way he carried on with the vulnerable, impressionable and healing ex-AA members on this board? How can Lifering be held any more accountable for his carryings-on than we are?”

    What he did here is the polar opposite of what he did on the LifeRing forums. On here he was a straight up troll, which was clear for anybody to see. On the LifeRing forum he was gaining people’s trust and when the opportunity arose, he was using that trust against them.

    Part of the reason he gained that trust was because he was a forum moderator and as such had a position of authority and trust which was given to him by other people in a position of authority and trust. The people who gave him that trust need to take it away, denounce how he used it and take measures to try and stop similar abuses.

    Because LifeRing is somewhere people go to when they need help, it isn’t like ST, this isn’t a support group, this isn’t where vulnerable people are advised to go in order to develop the tools to help themselves. Nobody here ever gave JD any authority and he was regularly denounced.

    When it was discovered just how much JD was using his voice here to abuse power he had gained elsewhere it was exposed, both here and to LifeRing, and truly denounced. FtG and MA took steps to stop him abusing power that they never gave him. Will LifeRing, who gave him that power do the same?

  192. mikeblamedenial says:

    Interesting take, Ally. If this board is not a support group for those critical of, damaged by or leaving AA, I have been mistaken and should take my leave, as well.

  193. mikeblamedenial says:

    JD and his cronies here are given power by those who continually respond to their taunts, flames, insults and endless circular arguments.

    “Internet troll – Definition
    An internet troll is a person who sends duplicitous messages hoping to get angry responses, or a message sent by such a person. The term derives from the phrase “trolling for newbies” and ultimately from trolling for fish; it first appeared on Usenet. The term is frequently abused to slander opponents in heated debates and is frequently misapplied to those who are ignorant of etiquette.

    Trolling is often described as an online version of the breaching experiment, where social boundaries and rules of etiquette are broken. Self-proclaimed trolls often style themselves as Devil’s Advocates or gadflies or culture jammers, challenging the dominant discourse and assumptions of the forum they are trolling in an attempt to subvert and introduce different ways of thinking. Detractors who value etiquette claim that true Devil’s Advocates generally identify themselves as such for the sake of etiquette, whereas trolls often consider etiquette to be something worth trolling in order to fight groupthink.

    Trolls are sometimes caricatured as socially inept. This is often due to the fundamental attribution error, as it is impossible to know the real traits of an individual solely from their online discourse. Indeed, since intentional trolls are alleged to knowingly flout social boundaries, it is difficult to typecast them as socially inept since they have arguably proven adept at their goal.”

    A bit later in the article, an example straight out of Jerry’s playbook:

    “The first reference to trolling in the Google Usenet archive was by Mark Miller of another user named Tad, (1990, February 8) [1]
    “You are so far beyond being able to understand anything anyone here says that this is just converging on uselessness. The really sad part is that you really believe that you’re winning. You are a shocking waste of natural resources – kindly re-integrate yourself into the food-chain…you mindless flatulent troll.”

    The entire article can be viewed here;
    http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Internet_troll

  194. xyz says:

    JD played with people’s emotions and undermined attempts at sobriety at LifeRing as well.
    It is a good thing that he is gone as a moderator.
    He was a poor representative of the LifeRing philosophy.

  195. mikeblamedenial says:

    And AA enthusiasts will counter that he is an equally-poor representative of 12-step philosophy.

  196. SoberPJ says:

    I can’t imagine for a moment that Life Ring would endorse JD’s behavior. How can it ever be ok for a person in a trusted position to go anywhere, physically or virtually, and publicly demean, abuse, slander and manipulate people and bash non-AA recovery methods, including the one he represents? Add to it that he has publicly stated he does it “for yucks” and it is like “pissing on ants” and it becomes pathological.

    Like for many of us here, the extent of the severity of this situation had to ferment a little while to sink in. On the surface, it is a guy behaving badly, yawn, on further examination, it is much more complex than that. It becomes sick, twisted and somewhat incomprehensible why someone would act like that. Even his supporters question his desire to create conflict. But it is only from this thread. If they have seen the entire picture, they may not be so forgiving. If they were on the receiving end of his abuse, they would surely see things differently

    Over the next few days, the severity and seriousness of the situation will sink in. Then they will realize it has the potential to somewhat taint the feelgood session they have coming up. If a reporter or two shows up asking questions about the recent debacle and wants to know who the guy really is ( they can’t hide behind anonymity) the proverbial fan will be set to high. If he has a criminal history or a history of mental problems(which I strongly suspect), what was he doing as a trusted moderator on a Life Ring forum ? What is their criteria for a moderator and do they perform background checks? Standard stuff for reporters. Who, what, where, when and why.

    I don’t care how much good he did, and I am confident there is some. I am concerned with the harm he may have done with his bizarre antics. The degree of that harm is only in the initial phases of being discovered. Supporters in his community will speak first, then people will look back on what he said with suspicion and probably uncover some lunacy and manipulation. They will always wonder if he was playing with them or being for real. Not a good place to be. If Life Ring doesn’t drop him like a hot rock and run away, yes, there is something wrong with that org too. But, they never say “principles before personalities”, so ya just never know.

  197. mikeblamedenial says:

    Engaging trolls like JD is an endorsement of their BS. Exposing trolls like JD is an entirely different matter. Now the cards will fall where they may. My experience convinces me that the timbre of this board, for example has been irrevocably altered. For better or for worse remains to be seen, and is in the eyes of the viewer.

  198. hulahoop says:

    I found the remarks JD made about LifeRing and the people who participate in the program to be the most stunning and saddest. It was like he was mocking their sobriety and their method under the guise of providing help to them. He most definitely holds a superior attitude based on the fact he has twenty plus years of sobriety. It doesn’t appear to be quality sobriety to me based on the example he set. Respect in the rooms is gained by sober time.

    Too bad preaching and working those steps don’t automatically make you a better person by working a good program. Being a better person comes from within, not from some silly program that doesn’t work for most who try it. I repeatedly heard I would not want to drink if I worked the steps…that I would be a better person and my desire to drink would magically fade away over time if I really worked a good program. I see by the example JD set what I heard is not always true. Yeah, he doesn’t drink…but he doesn’t seem like a serenity filled person to me. I don’t want anything he has.

  199. SoberPJ says:

    I agree Mike, we are in new territory for sure.

  200. mikeblamedenial says:

    Hulahoop, We have no idea whether JD drinks or not, has ever worked the steps, genuinely endorses the approach, or is even a member. We have only his on-board say-so, which has been shown to be unreliable at best. I have an easy guage in my dealings with my fellow human beings, which is this: If I cannot believe everything you say, I will cannot believe anything you say. Again, JD is demonstrative of a manipulative internet troll, and little else.

  201. MikeAugustine says:

    JD’s profile on LR read more like a dating profile than a recovery one. I mean, height-weight stats and sexual orientation? C’mon. Why was he really there?

  202. hulahoop says:

    @mikeblamedenial – First, I love your videos. They helped me a lot.

    No doubt JD is a troll looking for attention. He received more than enough of that here. I do feel this site and certain individuals on this site threatened him or his AA religion. I think it is a mix of both. He mentioned his November surprise for us on more than one occasion. He thought it would a fun joke. I almost would go as far to say he is more upset about his little surprise being ruined than he is being outed because he had the outcome planned. I do not disagree he has some serious issues that AA nor LifeRing is able to help him with. I think a good, non twelve step mental health professional might be of service.

    Say what you will about trolls, there is something very wrong with them to behave the way they do. I do wonder if maybe JD has issues with AA himself, feels guilty about it, and behaves the way he does because of his inner conflict.

    I have no sympathy for him. His actions led to the final result. He is one fucked up unit. I do have sympathy for the people at LifeRing who trusted him. It was all a lie. They might want to coddle and pet him, but the fact is he mocked the very people who placed their trust in him. The boy definitely has issues.

  203. JR Harris says:

    What is happening in November? Are there any major conferences going on?

  204. Jonny Quest says:

    For someone who belongs to or endorses another program, I can see how this site could be a “gold mine” (to borrow JD’s own words). If one is trying to create an alternative program, this site is a “HOW-NOT-TO” guide.

    If one is a true believer trying to undermine those who question your beloved program, this site is a window into the opposition, and into its psychology, much as some other forums, like Sober Recovery, are a window into the 12-Step and the “alternative” recovery world.

    I think that JD is, or was, an AA member, even though he did not use the usual slogans, which, as an aside, the “solution-based” groups try not to use.

    He did have some keen insight into how people think/feel, and which buttons to push, which is often the case with those who have sociopathic tendencies. He would know not to use the slogans or quote the Big Book on here.

  205. Lucy says:

    Personally, I am glad this is over as it was too close a reminder of the melodrama of AA meetings. I just want to thank FTG and MA, whom I think handled it the best they could without getting into it with JD. I also want to see if I can use another part of my life to help protect them in case something more malign happens with this kind of personality in the future.

    My professional life sometimes causes me to swim with sharks. When I have to transmit information from one source to another, I need to be careful that I am not endorsing the information as truthful and let the recipient know that he ought to make his own investigation of the facts. If I were to apply that kind of disclosure to this site, I would –

    1) Remind the blog readers that the opinions posted hereon are solely those of the independent posters and are not meant as legal, personal, or professional advice to the reader and should not be taken as such.
    2) Remind the blog readers that the site owners want it to be an open forum and are not inclined to censor individual comments. However, the site owners will not tolerate harrassment, deceptive practices, and personal attacks and will block any poster whom they deem inappropriate.
    3) State that this blog is willing to post links to sites that support alternatives to AA, but that the site owners do no endorse those programs and receive no remunerative benefit from the link.
    4) State that the blog has been considered controversial by many who do not agree with the content of the posts and comments. Some of those who considered it controversial have been deceptive in trying to discredit the blog owners. It is the obligation of the individual readers and posters to keep and open and critical mind when reading the opinions of all who post here.
    5) Remind the posters that the public has access to anything published on this site, and that it is incumbent on the poster to hide any personal information to protect himself from those who do not have his best interests at heart.
    6) Remind the readers that ST wants each poster and reader to make up his own mind about drinking, about AA , and about AA participation. The blog is about muckraking and critical inquiry, not about telling people how to handle a drinking problem. Comments about how to handle a drinking problem are solely the opinion of the posters, and not intended as an endorsement of fact.

  206. Jonny Quest says:

    If you read closely this comment he posted, it indicates that the work being done here was troubling to him. It certainly does not sound like he wanted the “continued fun” to come to an end.

    JD: “ST was a gold mine for me of course and I’ve had a lot of fun with the back and forth stuff. I expected to be banned, but since things have taken this course and we’re all still buddys I see no reason to change things at all. You and others can keep spouting nonsense drivel, and I’ll occasionally keep correcting your errors. Sounds like continued fun to be had for all.”

  207. violet says:

    primrose: i do not even have one off the top of my head, really. :) i am not sure i would call harm reduction an alternative to aa? but i believe in it; however, though I AM NOT A LIBERTARIAN AT ALL, i worry about stuff like needle exchanges costing people too much money and thus making drug addicts look worse than they already do. I really believe that addiction is, or should be a choice. If I want to be fucked up on heroin, for example, i should not have to worry about losing my job or my child unless I am arriving at work fucked up or am leaving dirty needles around my kid, whatever. i believe that nixon, in a kinda weird way, is a sort of christ figure for so many junkies, bringing the methadone solution to this country. i dunno… i think using stems from so many maladies and/or mental illness/whatever and the solution is to fix that, not the addiction itself. i believe in doing nothing, really.

  208. Lucy says:

    MIkeAugustine – CLEARLY JD was trolling in LR for more than attention. He mentioned a recent divorce in his first or second post. And then he went on to talk about helping people, his fine job raising his son, etc.

    I don’t know Life Ring speak, but I am fluent in AA. He sounded straightaway to me like someone who was letting us know he was available, a great dad of a doctor son, and a great _____ member.

    That would be the online middle-aged AA equivalent to a college boy who shows up at a park with a small dog to get girls to come and pet it. It works to get attention and spark conversation.

    But after testing the waters, this group was good for nothing but arguments with him. No hot Northen California, England, Germany, etc. divorcees.

  209. mikeblamedenial says:

    Don’t confuse my dismissal of JD as an all-too-typical internet troll as a minimization of the harm they do. Some of them are every bit as psychotic and maladjusted in their real lives as they appear to be on-line.

  210. flannigan says:

    @all at ST
    I think it is high time to return to the originally stated “mission” of ST- muckraking the 12 step industry. Just my opinion. I do not know who or what JD is/was, but his lack of compassion and self-absorbtion as related in his comments told me all I needed to know.
    @JD
    Good luck, my friend, I hope you find what you are looking for.

  211. mikeblamedenial says:

    An alternative to AA? Easy one for me. I don’t drink alcohol, ever, no matter what.

  212. Primrose says:

    @Violet; I agree. I asked because the first question aas ask is, ‘What would you suggest?’ and I have a list in my head that includes LR and SOS and I am doubting both now.

  213. Thank you, Lucy! We will implement your excellent suggestions and language. I might add this to the “About” page.

  214. Lucy says:

    You are welcome, FTG. Wherever you put it, you might include a banner on the “start” page (whatever comes up as a first page for “Stinkinthinkin” in a Google search, for example) suggesting that new readers review that section, AND the FAQ or About. (like the “READ ME FIRST” stuff you see on other internet forums and in assembly instructions.)

    I’m too old to know how to web design but I’m sure there is some way to edit the blog to make it work the way you want it to work.

    Anyway, glad to help when you guys do so much for the rest of us.

  215. AnnaZed says:

    falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus

  216. Lucy says:

    non impediti ratione cogitationis

  217. causeandeffect says:

    Oh gawd, I’ve forgotten almost all of my Latin.

  218. Sally says:

    As flannigan put it, I too “think it is high time to return to the originally stated ‘mission’ of ST”, but I’m also a little paranoid about this JD thing. I’ve in the past thought of myself as an unsuspecting fool when it came to getting brainwashed by AA, and as a result I now get a little jumpy about everything I run into – including (and not limited to) any other “recovery” options.

    I can’t stop thinking about what “fun” he has planned for November. Has he had, or is he still using, another sign name to post at ST? I really can’t help but wonder what payback he was and most surely is planning now.

  219. Disclosure says:

    Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
    May faulty logic undermine your entire philosophy!

  220. I just updated the original post. Check it out (you nerds).

  221. mikeblamedenial says:

    Sally, another troll tactic is to instill fear of reprisal and paranoia in those he seeks to victimize. If he had any real hammers, he would be swinging them. I would, however, caution one and all not to engage this, or any troll backchannel via email or Instant Messenger. Hacking takes many forms, and there are a multitude of sites out there dedicated to sharing expertise.

  222. Primrose says:

    Someone on the lr forum has posted that the ‘big cheese’ in Oakland have heard of this episode.

  223. Jonny Quest says:

    It would seem that Lifering Headquarters in Oakland got your message, MA and FTG.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.10


    From: bobomohundro 1:17 pm
    To: mkh106 (Margit)
    2725.10 in reply to 2725.7

    Hi Boss

    Just so you know it has already hit the “Big Cheese” in Oakland. It diverts stuff from Chat, so I’m kind of smiling. I would like to give u my opinion on this but I know opinions are like ass-holes, everyone has one. :). Its why we pay u the big bucks.

    Take Care

    Bob O.

  224. Here’s his reference to November. Who the hell knows what it means. Obviously it’s something he’s privy to, but not at liberty to divulge. I wonder if whoever confided in him knows that — whatever it is — he’s using his privilege to taunt people:

    JD sez:


    “Cute stuff, eh? Later this year around the end of November I’ll point out something far funnier than the Coach and the hypocricy of ST’s reccomendation if I still feel the same about it as I do now. It’s like 10 times as funny, but for some good reasons I’ll be the only one laughing about it until then.”

    Here’s the “context”: http://stinkin-thinkin.com/keep-coming-back/comment-page-4/#comment-58473

  225. Primrose says:

    I hope it is another rapture.

  226. That’s October.

  227. JR Harris says:

    “On June 3, 4 and 5 LifeRing will hold its Annual Meeting in Oakland, California. This year, we’ve moved the Saturday and Sunday events to a meeting room on the 12th floor of the Kaiser Hospital Tower in Oakland (on Howe St. near MacArthur). The exact schedule has not been finalized yet, but an exciting array of speakers and workshops is planned to mark our ten year anniversary.

    This year we’ve added a full day of workshops on Friday aimed at those who want to probe deeply into how to strengthen the LifeRing organization. Sessions will include Planning, Resources, Community 0utreach and National Recovery Month. These meetings will be held at the LifeRing Service Center conference room in downtown Oakland (1440 Broadway, Suite 312). Our traditional reception will be held at the Service Center from 4:30 to 7:00 PM. ”

    http://lifering.org/annualmeeting2011/

  228. Jonny Quest says:

    I still can’t believe that there even is a National Recovery Month, now in its 22nd year.

    It was called “Treatment Works!” Month for years… insane.

    http://www.recoverymonth.gov/About-Recovery-Month.aspx

  229. AntiDenial says:

    Does all this mean we do not have to deal with JD anymore? Or will it be more of the same? I dont think we need him mind f*&^^%#@! everyone on this board.
    As George Bush used to say-he is an “evil do’er”

  230. AnnaZed says:

    First of all (waving, hi JD!), the idea that JD/Mondotuna hurt my feelings is absurd (really don’t make me laugh), but it is curious that he frames his insidious behavior in terms of his object’s emotions and the school-yard arena of hurt feelings; it’s very AA.

    Having had a day to ponder the whole JD/Mondotuna debacle I have come to think of it more as an AA/Lifering/SOS debacle.

    Yes, of course poor JD/Mondotuna is a profoundly disturbed person (someone to be pitied really, and I sincerely hope that he seeks real medical help for his mental health), but what I am interested in is the implications of this calamity for two of the lions of the so-called secular recovery world. The online recovery resource world is actually quite small, and the forums where alternatives to AA are discussed are even smaller. One encounters the same people over and over again. JD/Mondotuna seems in fact to participate in every single one that exists or ever has existed (at least until he gets himself banned) from MentalHelp to this blog and all stops in between. Leaving aside the question of how on earth he has time for flower arranging, royal audiences and world travel; one wonders how on earth the powers that be of LifeRing could have missed the defining feature of JD/Mondotuna’s online presence, his near-omnipresence which he himself seems to mistake for omnipotence.

    JD was (is?) not only a senior mucky-muck for LifeRing (acting literally as their voice and online presence and functioning as many participant’s first and only interaction with the organization) but as Mondotuna he was also a dominant and domineering voice on the SOS board. I don’t know if he had or has moderation privileges there, but that board is completely dead. Was that JD/Mondotuna’s first success in his campaign? I wonder how much of the near complete stagnation on the SOS board and the alienation that many people have told me of when they visit the LifeRing board has to do with this one significant, duplicitous and loquacious person.

    I for one never participated in the LifeRing board though I have had an RSS of posts from there for ages most of which I never bother to read. I immediately smelled AA all over the advice there and moved on, but what if someone actually needed that interaction there? What of them? On the SOS board the only vaguely recent post is from someone angry and struggling with AA and the only response is from JD/Mondotuna suggesting that he start his own AA meeting. What about the poster who posted about suicidal ideation? Participant suicide is a real and significant problem in AA that AA members deride and deny. You would think that members of the so called secular alternative organizations would be particularly aware of that and particularly sensitive to people in the throes of despair and confusion as they try to navigate the conflicting messages of steppism and seek information that will nurture their path rather than threaten their very lives. Instead, what the LifeRing board offered (and I think still offers because his hammer symbol and thus his administration privileges are still intact as of this writing) was a sophisticated mechanism for an online emotional predator to use his administration tools to stalk and mock participants across the net at their most vulnerable time, laughing at their relapses and reveling in their pain and fear. It’s astounding, really.

    Obviously, it is shocking and abhorrent that people struggling with alcohol abuse and dependence looking into LifeRing found a disturbed individual as the welcoming party. What does that say about the organization? I can recall being persistently irked by LifeRing moderators shutting down posters who even breathed a word of criticism for 12-step theology. It is not only as if the steppers have them scared (which they clearly have) but that they are too stupid to understand how manipulative and duplicitous steppers often are. That they clasped this snake to their breast says something very important about LifeRing as an organization.

  231. Jonny Quest says:

    AnnaZed: “…what I am interested in is the implications of this calamity for two of the lions of the so-called secular recovery world. The online recovery resource world is actually quite small, and the forums where alternatives to AA are discussed are even smaller. One encounters the same people over and over again.”

    As I learned from my stint at Sober Recovery, there are no secular recovery alternatives – it is a farce.

    Anything that relies on group “support” ends up being the same, with the same common pitfalls as any other support group, and online forums are often as bad as “the rooms.”

    Frank Buchman was right – Groupism is a phenomenon – and addictoids LOVE IT.

    Best to stay away entirely, IMO.

  232. Lucy says:

    Why would any of us suppose that what goes on in AA does not go on in secular recovery groups? AA is just a bigger and more institutionalized, which makes the problems and hypocrisy easier to spot .

    But AA members don’t have the market cornered on either muddy ethics and deception or the habit of looking away from an individual’s problem for the good of the organization.

  233. Lucy says:

    JonnyQuest – I ditto what you said. Same problems. Same personalities. Same dynamics. Same tactics.

    One runs on being the True Religion, and the others run on trying to improve it. But personalities are personalities, and there is always someone looking for power, even if it comes in the form of 15 minutes of fame.

  234. MA says:

    I think you make a good point, Lucy. I think a lot of what happens in AA would happen in any support group. I also think that a lot of crazy shit happens there and is tolerated that wouldn’t happen in other groups. Not just recovery groups, but any group or organization.

  235. Mona Lisa says:

    People are people and all groups have their problems, but I think groups that tell you you’ll die if you leave are a whole lot more likely to foster abuse than groups that encourage people to learn some new life skills and then move on.

  236. JR Harris says:

    The courts don’t send criminals to the YMCA. That is a group that they say does great for families and communities. Of course they advertise they have Christian values. Do they have the same problems?

    If the courts started to mandate people to go to the YMCA, they would have these same problems.

  237. Primrose says:

    In a proper group therapy situation there would be a trained facilitator. In aa there are just cult members.

  238. mikeblamedenial says:

    The 12-step approach’s one-solution-for-every-problem, lack of oversight, lack of qualification, and lack of moral imperative makes it unusually prone to incompetence, ineffectiveness, and abuses by both its practitioners and its potential indoctrinees.

  239. Lucy says:

    Any self-help group, whether secular or AA, is going to attract prey and predator.

    And, yes, proper mental health management would include a trained facilitator. But, if you are new and come to Lifering online, wouldn’t you assume the MONDOTUNA is a trained facilitator, just as a newcomer to AA assumes that the person leading the group is the “leader of the AA group?”

    All self help groups are subject to lack of oversight, lack of qualification, lack of moral imperative and incompetence. That is why you don’t pay for them.

    Part of the argument I read here is that people get sentenced to AA, Take AA out of it. We still have overcrowded facilities and a need to get drunk drivers off the road. What makes you think they won’t end up in Lifering or SoS or SMART? Did Lifering have the oversight to manage JD’s behavior?

    The problem is WHO ends up in these groups, not just the groups themselves. Make them free and self-run, and this is what happens.

  240. Rick045 says:

    One thing that AA has in its favor is that twelfth step-recruiting ploy. I don’t think any other group will try to teach people that their own sobriety has anything to do with their ability to “carry the message” (recruit & indoctrinate) others. That may be a deceptive tactic, but it’s one that has served AA quite well. Maybe one reason that Mondotuna/JD was able to infiltrate those other boards was simply because he was so willing to do it.

  241. Primrose says:

    Book groups don’t tell you that you will die if you leave.

  242. mikeblamedenial says:

    “All self help groups are subject to lack of oversight, lack of qualification, lack of moral imperative and incompetence. That is why you don’t pay for them.”

    Actually, SMART does require the successful completion of a facilitator training program, and has specified standards of participant and facilitator behavior.

    http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/library/Tools_and_Homework/Facilitators_Handout/Code_of_Conduct.pdf

  243. JR Harris says:

    The “WHO ends up in these groups” is the criminal element. Originally the prophet Bill Wilson instructed his followers to go to doctors and hospitals to find “prospects” to increase the size of his fellowship. The first 164 pages do not tell anyone to go to jails and prisons looking for “prospects.” I haven’t seen many people being sent by the courts to any other group. Has anyone else? Do these groups have the same degree of issues?

    In Texas and California and many other states it is considered a “punishment” to be sent to AA, of course they use various other politically correct phrases such as
    “aftercare”, “rehab”,”support group”,”therapy”, etc…..

    Corporate AA is responsible for this, they send the missionaries of AA to jails and prisons looking for prospects. The program is supposed to be based on “attraction rather than promotion” in Tradition 11. Tradition 11 is part of the 12X12, not the “Big Book”. Even though they won’t admit it we all know that about 50-60 percent of the people go to AA because of some kind of court involvement, whether it be by probation or trying to get a lighter sentence.

    Because of court involvement, AA has become the dumping ground for criminals in the US. If somebody wanted to join them (which I hope they don’t) you would have much less problems in these groups if they stopped this practice. If the individual groups were to vote down signing court cards (which some have) and not go to Jails and Prisons in thier Hospital and Institution programs (I don’t believe any have done this…YET) then the people who wanted to be in AA would be much safer. It would also allow the growth of alternate groups.

    Unfortunately 12 Steppers want it both ways. They will claim that “my group doesn’t do that” in relation to signing court cards, and then they knock down the programs that they could be sent to as an alternative. I am sure that we can come up with many examples of this all over the place. It makes no sense.

  244. Jonny Quest says:

    JR:

    “Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions” lays out the real agenda.

    Under Tradition Six in “Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions” :

    Here are some of the things we dreamed. Hospitals didn’t like alcoholics, so we thought we’d build a hospital chain of our own. People needed to be told what alcoholism was, so we’d educate the public, even rewrite school and medical textbooks. We’d gather up derelicts from skid rows, sort out those who could get well, and make it possible for the rest to earn their livelihood in a kind of quarantined confinement. Maybe these places would make large sums of money to carry on our other good works. We seriously thought of rewriting the laws of the land, and having it declared that alcoholics are sick people. No more would they be jailed; judges would parole them in our custody. We’d spill A.A. into the dark regions of dope addiction and criminality. We’d form groups of depressive and paranoid folks;
    the deeper the neurosis, the better we’d like it. It stood to reason that if alcoholism could be licked, so could any problem.

    It occurred to us that we could take what we had into the factories and cause laborers and capitalists to love each other. Our uncompromising honesty might soon clean up politics. With one arm around the shoulder of religion and the other around the shoulder of medicine, we’d resolve their differences. Having learned to live so happily, we’d show everybody else how. Why, we thought, our Society of Alcoholics Anonymous might prove to be the spearhead of
    a new spiritual advance! We might transform the world.

    I’d say most of their dreams have come true, wouldn’t you?

  245. Jonny Quest says:

    JR: Some people who object to AA are given the option of going to SMART, but this seems to happen more inside prison facilities that have SMART meetings as an alternative.

    Of course, some people object to both AA and SMART.

    Personally, the whole deal is rotten. It should go like this:

    Judge:

    “So, Ted, I see here you have your 5th DUI violation. What are we going to do with you? We can either lock you up right now, or we can offer you a deal. You can agree to a plea agreement. You will be on parole for five years, and you will rescind your drinking license. You will provide us with your plan to stay abstinent – how you do this is up to you, but we can provide some alternatives if you don’t know of any.

    Know that if you agree to this arrangement, there will be no tolerance for relapses. If you are again caught violating the law under the influence and putting the public at risk, you will serve your full sentence, plus an additional year, on top of any additional charges you may incur.”

    Who do you think would be more motivated to stay sober? Ted, or someone sentenced to four meetings a week for four years?

  246. causeandeffect says:

    JQ, that reads like something straight out of The Twilight Zone. But here’s a link relating to the above post and highlights bill’s greed

    http://silkworth.net/chs/chs04.html

  247. JR Harris says:

    JQ – This is the conundrum. You have about 40% of the people who go AA that do it because they want help with thier drinking. They may not have been around a “rough” crowd and all of a sudden 60% are from a rough crowd. They are encouraged to change phone numbers and become friends. They are also encouraged to hug everyone. I believe and correct me if I am wrong, but Rational Recovery does not encourage because of this problem.

    The teenager who has been experimenting with drugs and alcohol with thier peers may not be hanging around the “rough” crowd until they go to AA at the insistence of parents or an older Stepper.

    Someone in thier mid 20’s may be going to a frat party and get a DUI, and a large percentage of the people on thier 1st DUI get sent to AA during the plea deal. Now you have college students that may or may not be hardcore.

    Then you have the rapists, child molesters and violent criminals who because of a parole or plea bargain are sent to AA.. These are usually “hardcore” criminals being sent by the court system to mingle and become friends with the two other groups I have just identified.

    People’s values and actions are directly influenced by the people they hang around. This is a recipe for disaster. The system is set up wrong by sending these groups together. This blog is full of examples of the this exact problem. This is because the courts and corporate AA are allowing it to happen and promoting it. I don’t know the answer, but people need to start looking at at this for it to change. If we don’t change this policy, it will continue to happen. Does anyone have any suggestions on how this can be done?

    (hint: Look to well respected leaders who have made policy changes such as Ghandi with non violent means.)

  248. JR Harris says:

    Ooops… exchange, not change phone numbers.

  249. Jonny Quest says:

    @JR Harris:

    You are correct, this is indeed a large part of the problem. Mixing hardened criminals with “softer” types, who, frankly are not very street-wise.

    I disagree with mandated recovery meetings entirely, and a strictly voluntary AA might have its uses, but it would have to be booted out of the social service system. It certainly won’t release this grasp on its own – too much money and power at stake.

    If it must continue, though, the answer is to *force* violent and/or predatory offenders on parole to attend *only certain* meetings, where they will be with like company, and where everyone knows what’s up.

    DUIs with no other criminal records could go to regular meetings.

    You are correct about Rational Recovery telling participants not to make friends at their seminars. The assumption is that addicted people are not helped at all by having even more addicted friends, and thus any friends made at a recovery group are bad company.

    They can’t control things entirely before or after their seminars, but I suppose if you want to go get drunk or high with another participant even after spending $2600 on it, nobody is going to stop you.

    They will quickly put an end to this if they see people “sharing” or getting too friendly on the RR support forum by exchanging personal information, though.

  250. Jonny Quest says:

    @FTG: Not entirely surprising, but WOW.

    I stand by my prior conclusion – there are no “alternatives” – all recovery groups are an alternative to quitting, a way to “sit on the fence” and spin one’s wheels while doing nothing, as Steven Slate put it.

    It goes without saying that I am not here on ST for “support” with “issues” :-)

  251. Jonny Quest says:

    @FTG:

    If LifeRing likes to keep that sort of information for its problem children, they probably have some on their moderators.

    You guys really put JD between a rock and a hard place. I’m sure he is familiar with LifeRing’s policies, and this is probably why he resigned preemptively.

  252. Jonny Quest says:

    BTW, it seems someone posted a link to Stinkin’ Thinkin’ on LifeRing…

  253. JR Harris says:

    I can’t believe the agreement that LifeRing sends you to sign to get back in if you want to get help:

    **************************
    AGREEMENT RE: Ban of CHATNAME, Reinstatement Date:

    I agree that the following is my name, current postal address, telephone number, primary email, and ISP, and that LifeRing Staff or the Chat Coordinator may use these to contact me regarding any future chat related incidents. (All information is required for reinstatement).

    Full Legal Name:
    Current Postal Address:
    Current Telephone Number(s):
    Current Primary Email:
    My current internet service provider is:

    I understand that the purpose of the LifeRing Chat Room is to be supportive of efforts regarding sobriety and to respect the diversity of LifeRing membership.

    I agree to read and review the currently posted guidelines on the LifeRing Website prior to reentering the chat rooms.

    I agree to abide by and fully support the most current rules and guidelines whenever I enter a LifeRing Chat Room.
    I will not contribute to any controversy concerning the rules and guidelines, nor will discuss or debate the “kick”, “boot” or “ban” of myself or others.will not attempt to explain the guidelines to others.

    I agree to respect the authority and follow the direction of the Chat Coordinator, Moderators and Convenors while in LifeRing Chat.

    I hereby relinquish any privilege in commenting on future changes to LifeRing’s Chat Guidelines, Policies or Procedures.

    I understand that any subsequent violation of this agreement is likely to result in a permanent ban and a letter to my Internet Service Provider.

    Signed:
    **************************

    What can LifeRing ban you for anyway?

  254. Jonny Quest says:

    “JR Harris: What can LifeRing ban you for anyway?”

    It is right there in the agreement:

    “I will not contribute to any controversy concerning the rules and guidelines…”

    Translation: Rocking the boat.

    I suppose if people want a real “alternative recovery” forum, they will have to create it themselves, independently of any recovery organization or addiction treatment industry conglomerate.

  255. JR Harris says:

    So let me see if I get this right. If mondotuna or any moderator bans you, you can only get back into LifeRing if you give them all of your personal information and not talk to anyone about being banned? Then if the moderator decides to ban you again they threaten you with your ISP?

  256. AnnaZed says:

    Just for the record, JD may have resigned as long-time moderator (with full administrative privileges) of the LifeRing Form but the gavel is still attached to his log-in and he is still there. All information about LifeRing participants gathered by LifeRing is still available to him to use to continue to abuse and stalk participants if he is so inclined.

  257. Jonny Quest says:

    @JR Harris:

    You got it. It also means they would have proof positive, with a signature, that someone is a member of their forums.

    It would be quite interesting if LSR sent an e-mail to FTG/MA regarding this thread.

  258. Primrose says:

    When my daughter was banned from Club Penguin (FOR LIFE, for saying Bugger), we didn’t have any of this. We just wrote grovelling emails and she got reinstated.

  259. Primrose says:

    But ClubPenguin is not ‘for life’.

  260. SoberPJ says:

    The more I understand about LR’s online ecosystem, the more I realize the level of access and control provided for a guy like JD. This makes me wonder how deep the whole thing really is. I mean, if this is only about being outed as a liar and a fake, does that require running away? Not necessarily. But, if there is other activity that is worse than what was figured out, well, that might require getting out of dodge before its discovered. What else is out there lurking to be exposed? Did he really stop at simply criticizing LR and being nasty over here? Is that the real extent of it? Or, how might Mr North by Northwest have used personal information for his continued jollies? Can you say side chat and personal “counseling” ? Some are sicker than others, so I have to wonder exactly how sick this puppy is. To be safe, LR has to ask themselves if he could be a predator. They have to ask that. There is no choice. If he is and they never ask and something like that comes out, they are in much deeper than they already are. I can’t be the only person thinking like this. It is CYA 101.

  261. JR Harris says:

    I have to wonder if LifeRing will be discussing the problems of possible predators in the online forums that could be caused by people living double lives such as JD and mondotuna at thier Annual Meeting in Oakland, California in 2011? They are open the festivities up with:

    FRIDAY, JUNE 3 (2011)

    “8:30 TO 9:00 | Coffee and Sign-In [Service Center]
    Join us for coffee and friendly conversation while we set up for our first workshop.

    9:00 TO 11:00 | Planning
    What distinguishes LifeRing from other self-help recovery organizations? What do we aim to accomplish? What do we bring to the task? Where are we now and where to we want to go? How do we get there? What is the plan? Are we on the right track? Participants will consider the future of LifeRing and how we might form strategies to grow.”

    http://lifering.org/annualmeeting2011/schedule/

  262. Rick045 says:

    SoberPJ, those are good questions. I find this whole episode interesting partly because I haven’t paid much attention to any of these online recovery forums. The only time I ever look at them is if a link is posted from here. I still relate things to what I experienced when I was in the rooms. I can easily think of people I met there that were much like JD, but very few that might be crazy enough to do what he did. I hope the powers that be at LifeRing will take the time to look up some of his posts here to see just how nasty he actually was.

  263. AllyB says:

    @JohnnyQuest “I suppose if people want a real “alternative recovery” forum, they will have to create it themselves, independently of any recovery organization or addiction treatment industry conglomerate.”

    Have you ever looked at the MyWayOut forums? I don’t post on there much now, and when I did it was usually in the Meds forum and the Family forum, but they seem pretty unmoderated. It can sometimes get very weird over there but people seem to be able to say pretty much whatever, with the board emphasis being to work out your own solutions.

  264. xyz says:

    Could someone please post a list of recovery sites that JD is on and his various usernames? It would be a very useful reference in helping those who have been hurt by him. Thank you

  265. SoberPJ says:

    JR … if they don’t bring up such a critical issue at their meeting, there is something terribly wrong. However, I am quite confident there are LR participants and conveners that are very concerned about the recent situation with JD/Mondotuna. LR contains many professional-level people with varied backgrounds. Some of them probably see this situation with excellent clarity and know that something must be done to keep it from happening again. At the end of the day, this is not about ST, it is about LR and their ability to screen people in positions of trust and authority. Their policies and screening did not work and the organization was put in some degree of jeopardy by one person’s actions. Further, the prospect that there may be more to uncover is probably unnerving to many. If I was on the Board of Directors, and aware of this situation, I would ensure it gets on the BOD meeting agenda. This is not a prank. It is not a joke. It could erode the confidence in the entire organization. The first thing I would do is remove him from any online activity and change all admin account passwords. In cases like this, it is much better to be safe than sorry. What’s probably sad, is the online ecosystem is probably not well managed from an access and authentication perspective. With non-profits, it rarely is. That takes governance and policies and people and that takes money. If he gets his jollies by online impersonation, the sky’s the limit. To do this right, LR would have to look at all their accounts… ALL their accounts .. and match user id’s with real people and possibly IP addresses to make sure he isn’t embedded in the system in multiple places. It’s an expensive, time consuming nightmare to get a devious electronic pro out of your system. Just ask Sony.

  266. Primrose says:

    @xyz; yes; it was suggested upthread; SOS, LR, and which others?

    Is anyone going to Oaklands this weekend?

    I have a number of questions about this but I will wait until November or later and it (this particular barney) will have gone long before them.

    I assume there will be a new thread around the response of the LifeRing Owners?

  267. JR Harris says:

    SoberPJ – Very interesting and LifeRing does have various time slots at its Annual meeting at LifeRing Service Center, 1440 Broadway Suite 312, Oakland CA 94612 to discuss this issue between June 3rd and 4th 2011. The thing is, will LifeRing discuss the problems of moderators going out and using personal information they have gathered and posting it on other sites?

    June 3, 2011:

    9:00 TO 11:00 | Planning
    11:15 TO 12:15 | Resources
    1:00 TO 3:00 | Community Outreach

    June 4, 2011:
    11:30 TO 12:15 | The Psychology of Decision Making | John Monterosso

    LifeRing only has 6 hours scheduled where the issue of security of the members at the hands of a rogue moderator can be addressed.

  268. Primrose says:

    Has someone emailed the people in charge of LifeRing and told them to read this thread?

  269. Primrose says:

    Please may I have a gavel?

  270. SoberPJ says:

    One classic way sick online impersonators in helping positions can create a false persona is to have two pc’s side by side. One is connected to the forum via a proxy so it has a different ip address than the other, normal, machine. He is logged in as moderator on the normal machine and logged in as a distressed person on the other. Essentially, he uses the two machines to post messages and talks himself back from the ledge and looks like a hero to all that are viewing the event. Even a co-moderator that isn’t in the room would never know – oh, and my, wouldn’t it be just a load of yucks! He can even manufacture thank you’s and congratulations in the future – “you changed my life that day and I will be forever grateful”. Just use a German ip address, or a Scottish or English one and you can say it wasn’t you. That general type of process is employed in the online world to promote products and create the appearance of product “momentum” so it has significant precedence. It is not new. So, why not on use it on online recovery forums? Why not JD? Enquiring minds …..

  271. SoberPJ says:

    Prim..I am quite confident that has been done..

  272. MikeAugustine says:

    I’m beginning to think that jd’s primary motive in playing moderator over there was to pick up women. His profile stats and the way he referred to his girlfriend as ‘my lady’ have a predatory/swinger feel to them. I can just hear him muttering schwiiiing! every time he thought he was honing in on a new prospect. What a loser.

  273. Rick045 says:

    I thought it was interesting that massiveattack triggered such hostility from JD. The last thing that predators and their protectors want is someone busting up their playhouse.

  274. Disclosure says:

    I have enjoyed this thread and JD’s participation here immensely. After 15 years in AA I have been betrayed by several members and badly hurt, particularly by my JD like sponsor. Betrayal, dishonesty, and abuse are rampant in AA. Why I couldn’t immediately realize that JD was using ST to be abusive for his own enjoyment is beyond me. I think this experience provides good information. Many AA’s can be cunning and emotionally abusive. Like JD, they like to attract victims with emotional bait. My days of wondering what I did wrong or what is wrong with me in AA are gone.

    Here is a current example:
    A friend in AA recently announced to others in the group that I had wronged him. He read a letter that I wrote to another member about financial responsibility and claimed that it was about him even though he was not mentioned. Later, I asked him if I could borrow $20 at a restaurant till we got to my house where I would pay him back. He claimed that this was mocking and that I was making fun of him because he did not have $20. This same fellow continually receives monetary gifts and sympathy for his depression. He drives a new car and works as an instructor at a prestigious university. Perhaps he does have depression and mental illness, who cares I no longer need to participate in his antics. Be mad or disagree with me all you want, I don’t need to make it all better for you so that you can control me.

    To the experienced AA it’s all a game. They don’t care who they hurt as long as they retain their perceived power and benefit. AA is the fox guarding the hen house.

  275. AnnaZed says:

    @Rick045, I have pondered this as well. What was it about massiveattack and her campaign to warn participants of the real dangers of predation within AA, originally conceived as a change from within type thing, that so set-off JD/Mondotuna, so incensed him and and so incurred his especial wrath?

  276. Lucy says:

    Well, for one thing, she was likely talking about people who do the same things he did /does.

  277. I also made note of that. Massiveattack never addressed him, and if she responded to any of his attacks it was usually a dismissive variation on “Whatever, asshole.” But his attacks on her were cruel and relentless: mocking, hectoring, concern-trolling (as if he had her best interests at heart). He could not get over her. He’d listen to her radio shows and then berate her about them. And she wouldn’t give him the time of day in response.

    He even followed her into the “Why I Left AA” thread.

    My impression was that, since massive was still in AA at the time, and had been for 30+ years, he was attempting to gaslight her using the tactics that work in AA that she might still be vulnerable to — trying to undermine her confidence in herself; trying to get her to question our support of her, etc.

  278. That, too, Lucy.

  279. AnnaZed says:

    I still think that there is a problem with the header of this story. The people at LifeRing have no idea who JD even is. The link that some brave soul posted at their site just takes you to ST’s top page. People are stupid. Those poor sheep are still posting messages of support for him and he still has all administrative access to their forum. As of now, they don’t get it. Damn, this is just like being in AA!

  280. Jonny Quest says:

    @FTG: He did seem to have a fondness for listening to her broadcasts…

    Also, I agree with what AnnaZed says – this thread might benefit from a cleaner introduction.

    Your blog, though.

  281. SoberPJ says:

    Yep AZ .. just like being in AA .. maybe the whole flippin “recovery” industry is just plain nuts. Maybe Trimpey has something right. Just stop doing it and get on with your life. I am starting to have images of walking away from this nonsense…. like walking away from a circus.. as you move farther away, the noise becomes a din and then very faint, then it is gone. The only way to remove this noise from my life is to get far enough away where I can’t hear it.

  282. Jonny Quest says:

    Some people on LR grasp what went on, though:

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.16

    From: emitman 3:22 am
    To: Mondotuna
    2725.16 in reply to 2725.1

    Well i’m glad you’ve come to your senses, i can never understand why steppers feel the need to infiltrate groups that are set up as alternatives to A/A, maybe it’s the brainwashing you’ve had in step meetings, let’s hope that this group can get back to how it used to be.

    How do i apply to be moderator on here? i want the power to ban anyone who spouts step dogma, haha.

    Well that’s my venting over, i wish you all the best in your life and that you remain sober till the day you die.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.18

    From: Karma0697 8:22 am
    To: marylouise50
    2725.18 in reply to 2725.17


    We have been self regulating here and all the new rules were introduced when modotuna was given a gavel. I think many of us struggled with his confrontational “style”, so a change would serve us well, and perhaps bring back some members we have lost.

    To be perfectly frank, I often did not come here in my most difficult and vulnerable moments because I did not feel safe and diid not want to expose my vulnerability to mondotuna’s comments. It is also why I deleted all my replies on my original journal. I did not want Mondo to have access to my history to use against me to publically shame me as had happened in the past.

    That said, I do hope we can now quickly put all this behind us, and move on to make this a safe and supportive site once again.

    Karma

  283. Jonny Quest says:

    Also, it seems that Margit has sent “Marty N” – which I presume refers to LifeRing Founder and CEO Martin Nicolaus – a message regarding this incident.

    Nicolaus is an attorney, if I am not mistaken, so I would imagine that at some point they might contact FTG/MA when they sort things out and come up with a proper public response.

    I have trouble believing that LifeRing Secular Recovery is the type of organization that would knowingly condone this type of behavior, but I suspect that at present, they know that any response from them will be posted on here, so they are going to be very careful in handling this.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.20

    From: mkh106 10:39 am
    To: ALL (20 of 21)
    2725.20 in reply to 2725.19
    … i sent Marty N a message asking for some input, as he is the host of this forum, but haven’t had a reply yet.

    on a personal level, i have benefited tremendously from Mondo’s posts, his view and take on alcoholism and its challenges, and have come to a very different understanding of my struggles as a result of so frequently seeing myself in his “stories”, an understanding i would not have without his input.

    as far as i know, there is no talk of banning. nor would i be in favour of that. but i do see a considerable issue revolving around trust, as well as damage done and this program seemingly mis-used. (i have not have time to read/find all the posts).

    oops, running out of time this morning….

    margit

  284. I agree with everyone about this post. I don’t think the real impact becomes evident until about halfway through the comments thread. It took a little simmering before the impact sunk in.

    I’d like to see other alternative recovery sites pull their links until LifeRing addresses the breach of trust.

  285. I also made note of that. Massiveattack never addressed him, and if she responded to any of his attacks it was usually a dismissive variation on “Whatever, asshole.” But his attacks on her were cruel and relentless: mocking, hectoring, concern-trolling (as if he had her best interests at heart). ftg-

    was he on anther board talking about bashing me? I guess I missed this drama.
    Thank God! Im sick of that kind of AA drama. Last night another new person contacted from my blog. Unbelievable horror stories. I hope she posts her story on Why I left AA.

  286. No, massive, he was doing it here! You had your lunatic-filter on and missed it :)

  287. SoberPJ says:

    So, JD was driving members away from Life Ring and stifling free expression. I find that very interesting. Just like he admittedly was trying to do on ST.

    (whisper) Wake up Life Ring, its not just us, there’s a trend here.

  288. mikeblamedenial says:

    “What was it about massiveattack and her campaign to warn participants of the real dangers of predation within AA, originally conceived as a change from within type thing, that so set-off JD/Mondotuna, so incensed him and and so incurred his especial wrath?”

    A couple years ago he took a great interest in one of our female posters at blamethenile after she had left AA feeling used, abused and taken advantage of. Those attentions were very similar to his fixation with massiveattack here. Predators need victims, and are attracted by whatever characteristics they are attracted by.

  289. JR Harris says:

    I didn’t even realize the extent of the damage that could have been done by mondotuna until I saw the post from margit talking about … “have come to a very different understanding of my struggles as a result of so frequently seeing myself in his “stories”. We saw right through those stories and realized they were BS and called him on it. If anyone called him on one of his stories at LifeRing they would be automatically banned and to get back in then he would have to give him all kinds of personal information.

    Man – talk about a power trip. I thought he was just giving those BS stories like the Egyptian Pilot one that could never be true on the “Keep Coming Back” thread to pollute it with nonsense. He was just learning how to be in denial and lie when talking to people who he couldn’t moderate and delete thier posts and threaten them with thier ISP’s.

  290. SoberPJ says:

    JR … I’ve been tellin y’all this could be really serious. They need to completely shut him out of their system stat and apologize later if they have to. If there is serious abuse of authority lurking out there and people start to come forward, they are going to look really, really bad. It takes a while for word to get out in any community, people have an inital reaction and then think about it further and start connecting dots. With this thing, the dots they are a connectin, and its only the beginning.

  291. mikeblamedenial says:

    Bottom line here, there and everywhere. On the web, everybody can be anybody at any time.

  292. Sally says:

    Sober PJ

    I have had enough of recovery groups and have been figuring it out over a period of time, months I’d say. I get satisfaction out of having my feelings and thoughts confirmed here and other sites when I read about AA. It really helps me!

    On a personal note my brother just hitchhiked into town from far away FL, drunk as a skunk as usual and calling my Mom’s home and mine wanting us to baby him and give him money. I’ve never stood up to him because of his “disease” and it being so bad, poor guy can’t work – blah blah blah – he’s always either in jail, a hospital, or in a church basement on a cot handling snakes in the Florida swamps. Literally. I’m serious that it how they work the AA program down there near the pits of hell. After 30 years trying AA he’s still a complete mess. Well, today he called from a local hospital (no worries, the hundredth time this year) he needs money, a place to stay. Well, I put him in his place once and for all and I feel so much better. I told him if he keeps bothering my Mother (makes her cry) I’d never speak to him again (I barely do anyway). I also told him to stay far away until he gets completely sober – and that I didn’t care how he accomplishes that. 6 months ago I wouldn’t have have the strength to say these things because I really thought he was just a sick guy and couldn’t help himself. So anyway, whew, I feel better now! :)

  293. AnnaZed says:

    @SoberPJ, I know, I am amazed that these morons are still dithering away. Margit has been totally gas-lighted and there’s JD/Mondotuna with his admin gavel hovering. These people have Stockholm syndrome or something.

  294. Jonny Quest says:

    Looks like people over at the LifeRing forum are starting to take a closer look. Someone asks for examples. I posted a few links to some of his recent memorable posts, but I haven’t been here too long.

    Sounds like beating a dead horse, in a way, but perhaps someone else might want to help them out with additional examples, so to speak.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.23

    From: Rob (PiperPayer) 2:59 pm
    To: ALL (23 of 24)
    2725.23 in reply to 2725.21

    I went over to the StinkinThinkin site and read some of the posts from Jerry (known over there by the intials J.D.). My conclusion is that he was right to leave this forum.

    For those of you who don’t want to spend the time, the ST site is not a recovery site, per se. It is devoted to exposing what they consider to be the abuses of AA. But there appear to be quite a few posts from folks who are using non-AA approaches for sobriety, so there is some personal stuff mixed in with the anti-AA stuff.

    The site makes a big deal about being a place where there is no censorship and where people need to take whatever heat comes their way. So Jerry’s posting over there is not particularly surprising or inappropriate. But there was a tone of ridicule in his messages about non-AA approaches which is pretty offensive, at least to me. And I think he is right that he could not remain a moderator here while attacking programs like our own.

    Ultimately it is a matter of trust, I guess. Jerry has lost mine, I am sorry to say.

    Rob

  295. A member on the LifeRing forum posted a question that I’d like to answer here:

    I think an examination of the facts might be useful, such as they may be. This claim is made

    “#### was using his position as a moderator at LifeRing to gather information about people who know and trust him as “mondotuna”. #### quoted and revealed painful information about people in order to mock them” on the ST site.

    He apparently “talked about how fun it was to watch people continually relapse.”

    Here http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/05/29/####-other-gig/comment-page-6/#comment-59481

    This prospect is not really pleasant to say the least and not that easy to take in initially. But is it true? I am trying to find posts from #### there that back up these claims. If anyone else can be bothered I would certainly like to see them just so as we know. I don’t think I’ll be wasteing too much time on it though so some help would be nice.

    As for the first question, about whether he was gathering information about people on LifeRing in order to mock them: I have one incidence in which he quoted someone from another forum who also posts here. Whoever it was, JD was ridiculing this person for being an AA member with 22 years and hiding his or her membership over here. He didn’t reveal the name, but he quoted this person verbatim — and unprovoked — with the sole purpose of mocking them, and making them feel uncomfortable both here and wherever JD culled this:


    Well here’s a secret for inquiring minds…

    ” I’ve been an AA member for over 22 years now.” Any guesses which rabid ST claimed that? You won’t read it here, because he prefers you believe otherwise.

    Does that make him a liar here, or a liar there? My guess is any of you who isn’t bleeding from the eyes on hangover mornings is also a secret AA member, just like our friend here.

    If you’re whining about AA here and still slinking into the back rows of meetings hoping you’ll magically stay sober like the real AAs do, then you’re as hypocritical as this bozo’s example. Just do everyone concerned a favor and stay away until you hurt enough to take 12 steps. No reason until then to waste the air you take up in meetings, hoping.

    It’s not going to ever happen for you.

    Funny to see all the postings here about the silly things drunks do, written for silly drunks who think they’re immune to doing silly things while drunk.

    “I’ve been an AA member for over 22 years now.” HA!

    In another instance, he revealed that he knew another regular here had been suicidal. I do know that this person had been a member of LifeRing at some point, but JD might have gathered this information elsewhere. He continually ridiculed this person who is a veteran with PTSD:


    Glad to hear you’re in a good space this month. I remember not long ago when you were firmly bent on suicide for being such an abysmal failure in life, and I’ll take some of the minor and dubious credit for being among those who successfully talked you down off that ledge.

    JD also actively ridiculed people for participating in “Plan B” programs, among which he counted LifeRing. We maintain a thread here called “Why I Left AA” which is the only thread here we moderate, in order to keep it a safe place for people who are newly leaving AA. JD had no business in there, but snuck in occasionally to berate a new poster, as he does here:


    Good for you Raze, you should be able to hand over the keys now to someone (treasurer, literature person), or anyone who cares about the meeting, and not go back. Even if you find yourself tempted, resist the impulse and find some new or old activity that you prefer doing instead. Only a flakey group would give the keys to 6 month person anyway so you’re not losing anything of quality.

    Much better for all concerned.

    And there’s always SOS, RR, Smart, Lifering, WFS, MM, WTF, ect. if you feel you want to do an ABC on your CBA, or do a Trike, or identify your A and S, or name your Beast. If you can cough up $2750 Steven Slate will sell/coach you on what the Scientology/Narconon wannabee treatment program told him when he was a patient. Just a ton of quality options to choose from.

    (You can find the whole exchange here: http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/05/29/jds-other-gig/#comment-58802 )

    While denigrating the “Plan B” options, JD indeed culled information he was privy to about the membership of LifeRing. For instance, when he challenged us to find any sober people in AA. He asked us to find people with quality sobriety, and placed the bar even lower for LifeRing than he did for the other options. As a moderator there, he’d know how many people would qualify. That, to me, seems like a breach of the LR communities’ trust:


    Really? Here’s a suggestion to see how completely wrong you are…visit the plan b programs and ask for the 10-no, make it easy on them-7 year people to come forward who haven’t pilled or weeded up and have been off booze for that miniscule length of time and haven’t done AA.

    Find me just 10 of them at Smart. Find me 10 of them at SOS. Find me even 7 at LifeRing.

    There should be lots, because they wanted to quit and were ready to not drink, and since these plan bs rely on good science and will probably someday issue stats there should be a flock of them. Since these alcoholics (oh, just alcoholics please…no one cares about the toenail-biters or procrastinators who found their answer at Smart) were ready to quit they should be around somewhere there, or at least rumors about them if nothing else.

    And here he is talking about watching “total losers” try other methods, relapse, and drag their sorry asses back to AA:


    Nicely done Tom. No benefit to mentioning here the reality you observe week after week. Keep hanging out with those who have an answer that works well to allow sobriety to continue comfortably for the longterm, the one’s that these folk assure you can’t possibly exist.

    There are plenty of examples too of those who choose to follow another course, one of their own choosing rooted in logic and self-will. We see enough of those dragging their sorry butts back into meetings after the latest results of their choices, sick and pilled up. Nothing unusual about it, and they can enjoy that kind of fun as long as they care to do so.

    No pity for self-inflicted injuries.

    Fun to watch them tracing the same tired and brainless route for years, believing they are simply too special to need to do the things that work. Effort followed by results, followed by complacency, followed by idle stagnation, followed by drinking, followed by some variety of drinking awfulness, followed by self-loathing, followed by new efforts…repeat for sometimes many tiresome years and often to the end. Total losers, blaming anyone or anything close at hand but their own stupidity.

    Nice when people get worn down enough to understand their alcoholism requires a little more of an answer than what they think they need on a given day. Eventually the reality of what they continue to experience is hard to ignore, and going back yet again to shake it out among people who stay connected and sober as they flop around gets old, and hard to assign the blame for our failures to any culprits not present in our mirror.

    Enjoy continuing to grow in your sobriety Tom, it will always reflect what you do or do not do, and you’ll never run out of visual aids for the results of continuing or discontinuing your participation in AA.

    Checking in here occasionally is fun if you’ve a few minutes to kill now and then. Occasionally people who are fracturing show up to assign the blame to others for their actions, anguish, and lives.

    They are firm believers in the AA Boogieman and His evil minions. They are either His eternal victims or dedicated opponents of His wide-ranging power. Yeah Tom, I know that’s way nuts, but they’re almost always good for a chuckle or two.

  296. @Jonny, I posted a response here because I’m not sure what they’re their moderation policy is over there, and I see that JD still has his hammer.

  297. AnnaZed says:

    I know for a fact from reading the exchanges as they unfolded at the time that the poster here on Stinkin’ Thinkin’ who was outed by JD/Mondotuna as having had at one time struggled with suicidal ideation had the dubious experience of having been helped by JD/Mondotuna on the LifeRing forum not some other forum.

    I still contend that JD/Mondotuna stalked him here, but I can’t prove that. Even if he just somehow drifted over here to Stinkin’ Thinkin’ as you can see from the above post (one of many, many scathing, abusive and insulting posts addressed to this person by JD/Mondotuna) JD/Mondotuna used the sensitive information revealed on the LifeRing forum by a hurting and struggling person who sincerely posted to that forum seeking help to badger and humiliate this person here on this blog as an attempt to undermine his credibility as a leading AA critical voice. The information was very old (over a year)*** so JD/Mondotuna would have been able to utilize his administrative access to get into the archives of the LifeRing forum to access these exchanges and make sure that his attacks were as hurtful and degrading as possible.

    That the powers that be at LifeRing, or Margit, or the other posters there don’t comprehend just how destructive and deranged this person is and how profound and far-reaching this betrayal is of their trust and good will just boggles my mind. That they can’t comprehend the ramifications for their organization is equally amazing.

    ***a note: The person in question who at one time was hampered by thoughts of self-harm is now just fine and doing great, no thanks to JD/Mondotuna or AA, in fact in spite of the best efforts of both to undermine him.

  298. causeandeffect says:

    ftg where is the post where JD likened us and “plan bs” to decaying flesh?

  299. Lucy says:

    I feel like this blog is deprogramming from the toxicity of JD the same way that the members had to deprogram from the toxicity of AA.

    Sociopaths are disruptive little things.

  300. Disinfecting with sunlight?

  301. c&e, I’ll look for it. Was that the exact phrase he used? If you can remember, that would be helpful.

  302. Got it, c&e.

    JD sez:


    PJ, I’m tickled you’re out too. AA is not for the likes of any here, and if only the crowd herewould stay completely away and chew each other up as seem to happen often when going on about Bad Bill gets a little stale instead of slinking around the fringes of AA and scowling from the back benches, the people who count will be more effective in helping the willing save their lives.

    ST and the plan b programs perform an important service to AA, and I fully support and appreciate the efforts made by all concerned. It reminds me of how physicians used to remove decaying flesh to enable wounds to heal faster.

    Heard today one of my AA friends is meeting a royal (one of the Princes) this eve, which isn’t a huge deal to us in the states, but a biggie to some UK folk. That wouldn’t be happening without AA. And probably not without folk like yourself, drawing off the dregs.

    So, on behalf of my friend I thank each and all of you for performing this somewhat distateful cleaning service, leaving the AA body pink and healthier.

    from the neverending thread, which is impossible to link to for some reason, but: http://stinkin-thinkin.com/why-i-left-aa-stinkin-thinkin-stories/comment-page-42/#comment-48711

    The timestamp for me is April 13, 2011 6:05 am. It might be different for you.

  303. Jonny Quest says:

    I hate to say it, but I kind of thought JD was “good practice” for me, but I do understand that others are more vulnerable, and the fact that he was not just a user over at the LifeRing forum, but a moderator, is troublesome.

    I won’t venture to guess as to what else he may or may not have done or said over there, or what he may or may not fear will be discovered, but I imagine that he resigned with good reason.

    He wouldn’t have resigned so suddenly if he thought that what he did do was in keeping with LifeRing’s policies and his position over there.

    Anyway, it would seem that it is sinking in, and they are aware that we are reading their posts, and vice versa.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.27

    From: mkh106 5:01 pm

    yes, i read those comments you quoted, and tried to find the ones from Jerry that actually said these things.

    as the ST site doesn’t have a search function that works in any convenient way, i found some of his comments, but not those specific ones that the ST posters mention.

    i do not deem it necessary to pull this all apart in detail on this public forum, nor do i think that’s appropriate. in the end, i can simply accept Jerry’s own words about his behaviour and being dismissive of LR while being an assistant host here.

    i agree there was a need to resign, and am glad it was done quickly, thereby keeping possible disruptions here hopefully to a minimum.

    while this leaves a bad taste, it certainly need not distract us from our main purpose here of supporting each other in achieving and maintaining sobriety.

    good to see you around, Stu.

    margit

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.29

    From: emitman 5:10 pm

    The link doesn’t seem to show the dialogue,but i’ve read it all, the stepper has been outed, surely some of you must have read between the lines on some of his posts on here?

    The stepper sarcasm and lack of empathy for non steppers stood out a mile.

    Thank god the truth allways comes out.

  304. SoberPJ says:

    I think the one who should feel the most betrayed is Margit. I don’t know her, but she will get splattered by all this. People will eventually turn to her and give an investigative examination. I mean, they did work side by side and she seemed to agree with his approach. Was she in on the deception? People are gonna ask. It’s only human nature.

  305. Jonny Quest says:

    JD: “….ST and the plan b programs perform an important service to AA, and I fully support and appreciate the efforts made by all concerned. It reminds me of how physicians used to remove decaying flesh to enable wounds to heal faster… I thank each and all of you for performing this somewhat distateful cleaning service, leaving the AA body pink and healthier.”

    This statement, to me, confirms my impression that JD was more philosophically aligned with the “solution-based” / “primary purpose” movements within AA than with what is commonly referred to as “Pop AA” (Open Discussion) groups.

    Having had discussions with these types before, many do not want every tom, dick and harry with a drunken marital spat or a DUI in AA. They also tend not to use the slogans, which I didn’t see JD use.

    I generally don’t have much problems with them, since their typical view is that only “real alcoholics” should be in AA and that “AA is for those who want to work the program” – which, to me, means they don’t want people in AA who don’t want to be there discussing issues.

    Then again, they don’t usually do what JD did – some have referred “not-real-alcoholics” to me before – since they know I sometimes get people out of there.

  306. SoberPJ says:

    emitman’s post made me a little happy. If all those people had to endure the subtle version of what we experienced here, and now they don’t, that is a huge win for LifeRing. Maybe they can get another kind and compassionate moderator like Margit and heal themselves out of this situation. Their community will have that moderator under a microscope for awhile, but that is to be expected. It has to be someone respected in that community as being a true Life Ringer with demonstrated wisdom and as far from stepdom as possible.

  307. I hope Margit isn’t “splattered” by this. She’s in the tough position of being on the frontline right now — actually, she is the frontline, because none of the LR administration has said anything yet.

    Even we — who knew JD to be an asshole — didn’t suspect that he was this much of an asshole, so I imagine this comes as an even bigger surprise to the people he was on his best behavior around.

  308. Jonny Quest says:

    I have a hard time believing that LifeRing would condone this type of behavior, and this sounds encouraging. Have to at least give her credit for this, no?

    She has notified LifeRing and is waiting on an official response from them.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.32

    From: mkh106 5:33 pm

    i’m not advocating leaving it alone.

    i question the usefulness of dissecting it detail by detail over here.

    and still would like an “official LR statement” from Marty, who is the host, or Craig, the exec. director.

  309. Lucy says:

    My guess is that, no matter what the outcome, JD will no longer wield the power or influence he had in LR before this happened.

    I promise you this – JD has more secrets than pretending to be someone else on ST. His behavior speaks of a compartmentalized life, where one part of it knows not what the other does. He has done something like this before, and he will at least try to spin it out again. Otherwise he would not have volunteered to step down without giving up the gavel.

  310. SoberPJ says:

    I wonder if good’ol Mondotuna was a financial backer? That would hold up a final determination a bit. I also think LR upper management does not know the intricacies of this online world they’ve embraced. The post from “Michael” kind of shows he had no idea how extensive this could be. Margit knows. She’s a pro and will try to handle the best way she knows how. Now, if LR screws this up, she’ll leave too. 5 bucks says she doesn’t last another 6 months. Unfortunate, but somewhat predictable. How would you like to second guess everything you write so that you don’t seem too much like JD? They have problems.

  311. JR Harris says:

    Has anyone ever noticed the advertising on the LifeRing site? The very first advertiser in the 1st (most high profile) spot is:

    Christian Drug Rehab
    Christian Drug Rehab & Christian Drug Recovery! Call: (888) 53X-XXXX

  312. AntiDenial says:

    @JR You have got to be kidding-right?
    What do they have to say for themselves?

  313. MA says:

    I don’t know Margit or anyone at Lifering, although I have perused their forum and found it to be full of people simply wanting to help one another. These folks had nothing to do with Mondo, and were simply victims of his duplicity. I even found a comment by Margit when it was announced that Mondo was becoming a mod, questioning the decision to make Mondo a moderator in the first place. I hope nobody tries to tie her to JD. I’m guessing moderating a forum like that can be difficult task, anyway.

    Mondo’s most disgusting, hateful remarks had nothing to do with Lifering or his denigration of that program or the people in it, although there were plenty of those remarks. He made plenty vile, hateful comments that were timestamped within minutes of his “normal” posts on the lifering forum. The guy is just major-league psychopathic. I doubt anyone, seeing all of his comments, would come remotely close to defending him.

  314. If you run a forum on Delphi or anywhere else that accepts google ads, you don’t get to choose what shows up.

  315. Jonny Quest says:

    I wouldn’t put too much stock in advertising. As long as it is legitimate, it might apply to LifeRing members.

    That is not the same as endorsing or recommending that provider. They have a list of “Preferred Providers” for that, and I didn’t see that provider listed.

    http://lifering.org/preferred-providers/

  316. SoberPJ says:

    Those are probably revolving Google ads. They have no real control over them and get money everytime someone clicks on the ad. The ads may be based on sites you personally have visited. They are getting sophisticated. If you keep seeing the same type of ads – I get icontact ads because I posted mass email sites on here a while back. Everybody may get different ads when they go to the forum. JR, my guess is you visited some Christian rehab sites in the last 30 days or so. If you don’t delete cookies and history, they know where you have been and base the ads off that info. Tricky, huh?

  317. If we accepted google ads, we’d probably get ads for all kinds of 12-step rehab. If you visit any political blogs, you’ll notice that there are ads for things that go completely against the position of the blog. It’s just how it works, if you want to support your blog or make some spare change.

  318. SoberPJ says:

    FYI – it is possible to run your own ad server and only post ads from people that pay you to do so.

    Now, back to or regularly scheduled deprogramming ..

  319. Yes, We could accept ads, and just put them in a widget in the sidebar. I have had a couple of offers — one from a pharma company that sells some version of baclofen. They didn’t even want a front page ad, just a square on the post page. And one for something else — can’t remember.

  320. Jonny Quest says:

    This is certainly interesting…

    From: Karma0697 6:23 pm
    To: mkh106 unread
    2725.33 in reply to 2725.25
    Thanks for clarifying that the new rules were not adopted.

    I just remember a very sudden authoritarian aire and lots of crazy rules being considered and Jerry was invovled and I got so disgusted that I didn’t log on for awhile.

    And as to Marty N being the host – I think that may be part of the problem as Marty is rarely here and does not routinely contribute. This is nothing more than observation. But I do think Online LR is the red headed step child of LR and we are not given much attention. If we were, I don’t think we’d be having this issue right now.

    My impression when I joined was that Don pretty much ran this forum and it was he who asked/appointed Jerry to moderate. Both have strong AA affiliation and I always wondered why an “AA alternative” often seemed so similiar to the AA philosophy and pomposity I was trying to escape.

    I have seen Jerry insult and demean many people on this site. It always bothered me. For all the good , there was also much bad.

    And Rob – Jerry lost my trust a long time ago.

    I tried to go to the LR Safe site at that time, but he is there as well, and I was just as uncomfortable.

    I only came back here because I needed the support and Jerry was not posting on my threads. When he began to do so, I just mostly ignored him.

    Jerry, I really do not understand why you would make fun of and belittle the very organization and people you proposed to “help”. I don’t get you.

    Karma

  321. AnnaZed says:

    Yes, I rather feel for Margit. Why hasn’t Marty spoken up about this or backer her up somehow? I am afraid that I can’t quite endorse MA remarks about the integrity of LifeRing itself in that I feel that this does reflect on LifeRing in a very profound way. I wonder if Margit and the participants on the LifeRing forum just over time became inured to being constantly fed what was essentially stepper advice from the Mondotuna personae. In fact with or without JD LifeRing has sort of positioned itself as 12-step-lite and this event could maybe give them some sort of idea of just exactly what is most hazardous about taking that position.

  322. Jonny Quest says:

    I have to give “Jerry” credit for pulling off that stunt as an administrator for so long. You have to admit, it is almost like a spy novel.

    Infiltrate and sabotage “the enemy” from within.

  323. AnnaZed says:

    The other thing that they aren’t addressing is that JD/Mondotuna still retains all administrative privileges over there. He can still delete posts, contact people through their private email addresses, everything. What are they doing, just taking his word that he has resigned the debating society?

    Why?

  324. Rick045 says:

    “Do I think of the many thousands I’ve spoken to in AA since who had a plan b they wanted to go try, and mourn them? Not at all, it’s their call and none of my business or concern. The ones who did the stuff are sober and still involved, or have died sober. I do think about them.” – JD.
    March 1, 2011 11:50am
    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/category/assholes/

    “I have no use at all for liars.” – JD.
    March 16, 2011 11:36am
    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/03/15/addiction-and-mental-illness/

  325. AnnaZed says:

    @JQ: He’s the John le Carré of recovery forums.

  326. Jonny Quest says:

    AnnaZed says: “…with or without JD LifeRing has sort of positioned itself as 12-step-lite and this event could maybe give them some sort of idea of just exactly what is most hazardous about taking that position.”

    LifeRing always struck me as very odd. In reading “Empowering Your Sober Self,” you can see that they almost ripped off Trimpey’s AVRT paradigm, complete with the ambivalence concept, and the idea that drugs “hijack” the brain.

    Chapter One is even titled “A PERSON ADDICTED IS A PERSON IN CONFLICT”

    AVRT “IT – The Beast” = LifeRing “Alcoholic Self”
    AVRT “I” = LifeRing “Sober self”

    A very good, though not very original start, but as you point out, they then adopted quite a bit from AA.

  327. JR Harris says:

    After careful research, LifeRing isn’t making any money off of this and is working on a shoe string. They only had 34,947 worth of revenue and 27,369 in expenses and no paid employees in 2009. Their annual 3 day meeting is at one small suite and actually ends up going to someones house 1 day for dinner. Since they have no face to face contact it does not appear that they are in it for the money. Their revenue and expenses are much smaller than the 30 or so AA Intergroups that I have researched.

    LifeRing doesn’t appear to be in this for the money. It may be that some of the principals are medical professionals who have set this up to be an aftercare for people who do not want to go to AA, but I’m not going to look. Even with this indiscretion the organization still seems much safer than anything that is based specifically on corporate AA ideology. I think we have explored every possible area of corruption in advertising , affiliation with other programs, personal financial gain, personal sexual gratification and I haven’t found anything. In my experience this is extremely rare when I research an AA Intergroup and they should be commended.

    I believe that this was an incident that could be avoided by making it extremely clear to moderators that they should not post on other forums. It is OK for them to look as research what is going on, but not posting. As for JD, I think he got caught up in the game and I believe he was coming here to hone his skills and it got way out of hand, but the honing of his skills caused undue stress here that it shouldn’t have. The only way to prevent this in the future is to forbid this behavior and hope that it will be enough of an incentive not to do anything wrong. But that still gives no guarantees.

  328. AnnaZed says:

    I don’t think the LifeRing people are in it for the money at all, but I do think that they vastly underestimate the enthusiasm that steppers have for sabotaging people that they feel threatened by. It’s right there in the book with the challenge to try some experimental drinking but many people do not see stepper callousness and effrontery for what it is.

  329. causeandeffect says:

    When he entitled that thread “it’s been a pleasure” they have no idea just what kind of sick pleasure he’s been deriving from it. I still wonder what was the significance of November was.
    I hope the people at LifeRing realize that we are concerned about their welfare but it all seems to be just starting to sink in for some.

  330. Jonny Quest says:

    LifeRing is an organization like any other, and I am sure that they have their bureaucracy to deal with.

    I’ve seen this type of behavior in the corporate world – people who on the one hand project a caring persona in order to gain unsuspecting people’s trust, but are absolutely heinous in trying to sabotage those same people without their knowledge.

    This does show that AA is not the only support group that is susceptible to abuse, although the untrained sponsor/sponsee relationship, ego-deflation, and group-think are hard to top.

    It think it is interesting that JD has neither posted on the LifeRing forum again nor sent any messages to FTG or MA.

    It doesn’t seem like his style.

  331. AnnaZed says:

    I think that he’s banned from here (finally). He’s got plenty of other forums and blogs that he participates in, plenty.

  332. Jonny Quest says:

    What’s really eerie is that if you read some of his posts on the LifeRing forum, he does actually give some sound advice many times, and it appears that he actually is trying to help people.

    Then, if you compare that to the ones here, it is completely different, almost like peering into the inner world of a sociopath.

    The disconnect is astounding. It makes you wonder just how many people in real life would try and do the same thing if they thought they could create a completely different persona and get away with it.

  333. Mona Lisa says:

    JQ, I don’t think what we’ve seen from JD is “almost” like peering into the inner world of a sociopath: I think it’s EXACTLY like peering into the inner world of a sociopath.

    But sociopathy is rare. I don’t think very many people would emulate JD even if they could get away with it. I am not naive about human nature–it can be awful–but this level of duplicity, with deliberate intent to cause harm to vulnerable people, is not common.

  334. Lucy says:

    MonaLisa – At the risk of repeating myself until my eyes bleed, JD is exactly like all the ex cons I met in AA. Sociopaths. On the money.Sometimes sober. Sometimes not. Always claiming this or that with no proof of anything.

    You can’t control them, if you catch them it just makes them change the venue, you are the latest in a long line of marks and your crime was being there. Everything else is senseless.

  335. This whole episode is like the Bermuda Triangle of Irony:

    Here’s JD (The Neverending Airhorn of Righteousness) again — hiding his identity from the person he is taunting, trying to make this person feel unsafe both here and wherever it is JD culled this information from:


    Oh FTG, certainly people are interested in which rabit ST is claiming elsewhere to be an AA member for 22 years. Pretending otherwise makes you look foolish. That serves only to further indicate a level of dishonesty that rattles people. That a member here would pretend one thing in one place and something else in another indicates a lot about them, and how could you place your trust in anyone here when among all the braindead sheep is such a big bad wolf?

    Interesting to me the person has not stepped forward for these past days and given some lame excuse that you’d surely buy immediately, because it’s what you’d like to believe is so, and you couldn’t possibly be so entirely foolish as to put your trust in them as a fellow traveler…that’s not possible at all.

    I’m not sure why something like this is not seen as such a big deal. Let me lay this out really quickly:

    1. On another forum, whether LifeRing, or maybe Daily Strength (where someone named “cabledude” signs his name “Jerry”, often alludes to the “sexy” moderator at LifeRing, and seems to be known there for his belittling, sarcastic comments) he sees someone who posts here claiming to be an AA member there.

    2. He might even have welcomed this person under one of his other handles — or tough loved them.

    3. Then he ran over here, disguised himself, and started taunting this person, harping about dishonesty and misrepresentation — while he was the one in the position to uphold certain standards, not this random commenter.

    4. If this person read JD’s comments, s/he would probably never again feel comfortable posting here or there, for fear of being “outed” by someone who would not reveal his identity.

    5. When JD was busted for this, he claimed no harm no foul because he never revealed this person’s name. He never acknowledged the personal harm he may have done to this person (see #4).

    6. The guy who cannot see how messed up this is has long held a position of trust among vulnerable people on LifeRing. He cannot see how wrong this is, and he sees himself as the victim here, and has been granted a voice of authority among people who are desperately looking for help.

    I think it’s a big deal.

  336. Disclosure says:

    I would hope that the blog could remain ad free. Ad’s cloud the discussion and slow the equipment. I think the real value here is in the generation of sound intellectual property. If you need money just ask, I for one am willing to contribute to the hat to keep the discussion the way it is.

  337. JR Harris says:

    I have mixed emotions about the whole thing. I don’t want this to disrupt an alternative to AA, but I also think that it needs to be addressed. JD didn’t bother me much, but he did always want to find out if I’m an alcoholic or not and use it against me. It made me very critical of anyone trying to do that and I did jump on a few people because of it. This whole AA thing and the trolling made me extremely critical of anyone who even tried to label me and use it to discredit what I said, I’m sure everyone has noticed it lately.

    Hopefully this experience will help everyone in relation to online security and confidentiality in Substance Abuse support groups. Hopefully it will also change LifeRing for the good. On Sunday June 5, 2011 they are voting on thier by-laws. Hopefully this will help them in some of thier decisions and they can put this behind them.

    “On Sunday, we’ll(sic) hold our annual LifeRing Congress, also at the Kaiser Hospital Tower. Delegates (each meeting is entitled to send a voting delegate) will briefly share their experiences over the past year and elections will be held for Bylaw changes and Board seats.”

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages/?msg=2725.1

  338. Lucy says:

    Me too,FTG and you all know how I feel about lay run alternatives. Enough from me, except to sat that you all did a good job hanling the drama

  339. Jonny Quest says:

    FTG: On another forum, whether LifeRing, or maybe Daily Strength (where someone named “cabledude” signs his name “Jerry”, often alludes to the “sexy” moderator at LifeRing, and seems to be known there for his belittling, sarcastic comments) he sees someone who posts here claiming to be an AA member there.

    OMG – I remember a “cabledude” from SoberRecovery that sounds eerily like JD, now that I think about it. If that is him, it would certainly explain why he hopped on me so quickly.

    He posted on both the 12-Step forum, the Secular forum, inquired about Jack Trimpey’s names for the “Beast” and said he was in Germany at one point, I believe.

    “cabledude” asking me about the Sex and Nicotine Beast” – notice the “I love hard science like this” remark – he used the same line with me here !!!

    http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/secular-connections/222500-art-avrt-has-anyone-read.html#post2906119

    “cabledude” talking about failed attempts at controlled drinking, same language as mondotuna, plus bragging about 29 years of “sobriety”:

    http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/alcoholism/220461-whats-longest-youve-stayed-sober.html#post2870709

    “cabledude” questioning someone’s tenure in AA as being genuine – asking if they were really sober those 2.5 years – sound familiar? Think “sitting in the bleacher seats at meetings”

    http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/alcoholism-12-step-support/217250-sponsorship.html#post2827555

    “cabledude” talking about working in Spain and Germany for SMART Recovery:

    http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/secular-connections/215062-giving-another-try-2.html#post2827559

    Son of a bitch !!!

  340. Jonny Quest says:

    JD asking me what I named “my Beast” and using the “No one can argue with science like that” line:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/05/17/massiveattack-live-517-at-600-pst/#comment-56351

    JD: JQ, great that RR is working well for you. Out of curiousity, what name did you give your Beast? I’ve always liked the name Monty Fernfeathers. If I were to follow the scientifically based RR program I would notice when Monty Fernfeathers began to bark “Drink! Drink!”, in his Beastly way and I would simply ignore his barking and thereby stay sober as Jack guarantees. If I were to get drunk again RR teaches it was because I didn’t ignore my barking Beast well enough, but Jack would issue a further ironclad guarantee that if I would in the future ignore my Beast I would stay sober, unless I didn’t.

    No one can argue with science like that…

  341. Jonny Quest says:

    Quite a guy… may very well be the John le Carré of recovery… Stinkin’ Thinkin’, SoberRecovery, LifeRing, and now, it turns out, SMART Recovery.

  342. AnnaZed says:

    I also think that the John le Carré of recovery may either be bedridden or institutionalized. How else could he have that much time on his hands?

  343. Anonymous to the Nth power says:

    I don’t think Lifering is “AA lite.” Despite some potential for problems, lay-lead groups have advantages as well as disadvantages. (I don’t know if SMART is being referenced obliquely as a “professional” group or not.)

    Other than Jack Trimpey wanting to charge obscene money for his materials, I think there’s room for cooperation among the various non-step groups.

    And, if people need in-person sobriety contacts and nothing else is available, while not supporting AA’s tenets, I don’t have a problem with suggesting that that person may find what he or she needs by going to AA.

    Finally, as for an “industry”? I think there are legitimate counselors doing legitimate work, and not in it to get rich. Most of them are the ones who are the most honest about their frustrations, and realizing that their powers to help people to change themselves are often rather limited.

    Other than that, as a former member of the 12-step-free Yahoo group, I know that people will find problems with organizations if they want to find problems, and will use these alleged problems as rationalizations.

  344. SoberPJ says:

    I just have to…. a comment from Michael to set things straight. Notice the last couple lines. I did not make them up, that is how they read. He must be tired or something, it can’t be that he doesn’t know what he’s doing. I mean, that was an important post and he certainly wouldn’t trail off in incoherence if he knew what he was doing, right?

    ” I read a few of the comment threads on the ST site, including #### has a new gig, looking for specific references to individuals here and didn’t find any. There are derogatory references to LR, and a dare to anyone to find mor than seven people here who were not into booze, weed or pills. I know Jerry kept track of what people said. But, hey, we knew Jerry was AA and that he could be caustic and sardonic. It was always the same message: that AA is the only tried and true method to sobriety. But there were flashes of brilliance in some of his posts and he was always supportive of newcomers. He didn’t abuse his power as moderator because he had very little. And we would have noticed. The folks at ST are convinced we were victimized by a stepper, as perhaps some of them were, but that is just not the case. Most of us pay no attention at all to AA, Smart, cbt, and myriad other programs out there, because in the end they have little to do with our thing, which is writing about anything and everything even remotely related to alcoholism, as we wish.

    At any rate, I agree that Jerry’s resignation was appropriate. I hope you stay on Margit, and I suggest that the new co-moderator, if we have one, should be elected.

    Michael

    observations were original some original thoughts on alcoholism hat he had

    All I’m all, I think Jerry ”

    hooo boy ! That’s some fancy proof readin right thar …. The fearless leader has spoken… we think … well kinda …. is he done? Not sure … maybe there’s more …. nope… I guess he’s done then. What’s it all mean ?

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages/?msg=2725.1

  345. SoberPJ says:

    Doh !

  346. PJ, I do that sometimes… Write some notes so I don’t forget what I want to say and then accidentally paste them in. That’s what it looks like to me. Also, it’s been edited out.

    What I find more interesting is what Michael meant to say.

  347. PJ, do you want a do-over? :)

  348. SoberPJ says:

    no.. on my Doh post it should have been

    Michael says … “Doh!”

    I know exactly what I wrote, does he know what he wrote? Between quotes, it’s verbatim from the thread, serious.

  349. AnnaZed says:

    PJ, those were just his notes.

  350. Jonny Quest says:

    I hope you guys have screenshots – they seem to want to sweep this under the rug.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.36

    From: mkh106 Jun-1 11:40 pm
    To: Karma0697
    2725.36 in reply to 2725.33

    re hearing from Marty: i have heard from him and he has informed me that he has retired (which we knew, of course) and that any statements are Craig’s to make.

    i pointed out that he is listed as the official host, and i don’t think he was aware of that.

    maybe Craig will join the thread for a post or two.

    margit

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.37

    From: steverino63 12:14 am
    To: mkh106 unread
    2725.37 in reply to 2725.36

    Margit, I’ve also emailed you, via what Craig forwarded to me.

    I’m using my “personal” account, not my “Lifering Online Representative” account, but I’m speaking as the latter.

    Boy, boy, boy.

    I hope you do stay on as coordinator here. If you need help, lean on whomever has volunteered, in the short term. If you need to contact Coach Don for feedback or thoughts, please do.

    Feel free to respond offsite to the email I sent if you need to talk more.

    Oh, and one final thought?

    Now that we know people from that other site are reading and reposting what’s here, shut this particular thread down ASAP, perhaps.

    After a new comoderator has been appointed, etc., we might even want to delete the thread and move on as best we can.

    Steve

  351. SoberPJ says:

    Even though this is not my blog, I will take the liberty of being the party meister or cruise director, if you will.

    I extend an invitation to all Life Ringers that want to talk this over to go ahead and post here on Stinkin-thinkin. We only bark and druel when rapid steppers enter the yard ( well, most of us, some seem to bark at compliments) and we probably have a lot in common, especially since an AA imposter has been affecting all of us lately. Seriously, I think Rob and Karma could add important color to the situation. If you don’t want to, that’s ok too. But, you have to ask yourself, what am I afraid of ? It is a free country and you can post here if you want and there is no moderator and we answer questions you may have. Just don’t expect to be cuddled if you come in here with guns blazin, but you can come in here with guns blazin if you want. It’s that kind of place. C’mon, it’ll be fun ! :-)

  352. SoberPJ says:

    Right, I realize those were his notes. My point is, this is the most serious situation he has probably had to deal with outside of lining up speakers and financing. The forum was going to dissect his every word – he is the head dude and head dudes are expected to have their shit together. Does a guy with his shit together screw up an important post by leaving his flippin dumb ass notes in the post? I mean, c’mon. That old write, review, copy, paste, proof thing is really difficult, eh? Especially when your online world is waiting for your word from on high and you end up looking like a dumbass that can’t compose a simple post? I can guarantee you there were people in Life Ring that read that and put their hand up to their face and shook their head ( or the equivalent ). It just prolonged the lunacy.

  353. Jonny Quest says:

    Anonymous to the Nth power says:

    “Other than Jack Trimpey wanting to charge obscene money for his materials, I think there’s room for cooperation among the various non-step groups.”

    Obscene money? Nice try. Let’s see here…

    Internet Crash Course on AVRT – FREE

    RR Book on AVRT – $17 retail, $11.55 on Amazon New, less than half that used, free at public or university library.

    This is all you really need to quit, but if you need some additional questions answered, often by Trimpey himself, or need some recovery group deprogramming, the RR online forums can be useful.

    One month subscription to RR forum for support on AVRT – $29
    Three-month subscription if you are *really* brainwashed – $75

    Includes full access to “Advanced Crash Course on AVRT” plus all articles.

    So, on the cheap, you can get the book brand new for under $12, or used for about $5, and recover for good, not just one-day-at-a-time, without endless meetings, meetings, meetings, or therapy sessions.

    But, even assuming $18 for the book, and a three month subscription for $75 to recover from extensive brainwashing at recovery group meetings, that comes to $93 total.

    I was paying $110 for 50-minute private “counseling sessions” – many of them – all of which were COMPLETELY USELESS for quitting drinking – plus whatever went into “the hat” at meetings.

    I got Trimpey’s book for $12 on Amazon, and I was able to quit for good, and then pass the book along to someone else after I finished and get them out of the recovery ghetto also.

    Best $12 I ever spent. I hope Jack enjoys the royalties…

  354. SoberPJ says:

    I might as well continue … from Michael’s post –

    “He didn’t abuse his power as moderator because he had very little.” Having little power is the reason he didn’t abuse it ? Uh oh. Does not compute.

    ” And we would have noticed. ” Right. How? Were all of his machines tracked? Life Ring key stroke loggers? Does LR have access to his machines in Germany?

    ” The folks at ST are convinced we were victimized by a stepper, as perhaps some of them were, but that is just not the case. ” Oh really? What about those people that dropped off the forum because they felt abused? Aren’t they victims of a stepper in charge of the Life Ring hen house?

    “Most of us pay no attention at all to AA, Smart, cbt, and myriad other programs out there, because in the end they have little to do with our thing, which is writing about anything and everything even remotely related to alcoholism, as we wish.” WTF? First, all of those programs can have something to do with alcoholism and can be written about. The second thing is the forum IS MODERATED and people CAN’T WRITE ABOUT ANYTHING THEY WANT ! They get banned if they write the wrong things and they don’t even have to be anywhere near as abusive as JD/Mondotuna.

    Sheez, what planet is this guy on?

    ” At any rate, I agree that Jerry’s resignation was appropriate.” Went from ” I wish you would stay on Jerry” to get the hell out. Right direction anyway.

  355. Jonny Quest says:

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.40

    From: BartowWing 1:44 am
    To: marylouise50
    2725.40 in reply to 2725.39

    Have I missed something? I ask because I might have.

    The moderator of this group has been not only promoting non-secular “recovery” but actively disparaging and ridiculing other models. INCLUDING LIFERING.

    Secular recovery? The issue is credibility for LR.

    This should not be acceptable.

    But maybe I missed it as to how this is favorable to LR.

  356. Jonny Quest says:

    Just my opinion here, but perhaps it should be added to the “introduction” to this thread that any comments from a “LifeRing Online Representative” – such as Steve – the one that wants to delete the thread – to clarify things would be welcome.

  357. AnnaZed says:

    I think that the reason that the LifeRing camp is so slow to react is that their tent is so small that they essentially will let anybody join their circus. I’m not sure how I feel about re-posting people’s posts from there, but it’s a public forum so they can hash that out on their own.

    I will say (again) for the record that the Mondotuna persona still retains all of the prerogatives of being a forum moderator along with his gavel which is still attached to his name. So, at the very least they should promptly strip him of those tools, but they don’t seem to have figured out that they have a dangerous and seriously undermining presence in their midst at all. A few have, maybe one or two.

    I will not post on this thread the name of the person with the suicidal ideation in his past who was harassed and threatened and demeaned by JD/Mondotuna/Cabledude/le Carré on this blog with information gleaned from his prior participation on the LifeRing forum (sorry). The LifeRing camp should just take it as fact that this occurred.

    If LifeRing is concerned about their tiny hold on their tiny percentage of people seeking help with their alcohol abuse or alcohol dependence problems maybe they should take a very close look at who is guarding their doors and what message they are sending such petitioners.

    I had no idea that LifeRing was just such small beans; nor did I know that when JD/Mondotuna/Cabledude/le Carré was mocking them here that he was speaking from certain knowledge (has he infiltrated all of these groups?). Anyway, here’s what he had to say about LifeRing numbers:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/keep-coming-back/comment-page-1/#comment-52093
    “…HH, perhaps the other groups slipped her mind because all the plan b groups in the world number less than the AA meetings in a decent sized town, and when taken as a whole are not the landscape changing force you might hope them to be.

    61 weekly SOS meetings nationwide are listed. And because it’s a big wide world out there we have 2 weekly meetings in other countries because as you know, SOS is an international organization. The funny thing was back when JC was making up meetings and got caught at it, so probably most of the currently listed meetings such as they are, are more than likely real.

    LifeRing has 141 weekly meetings worldwide, and is growing by 5 or 6 meetings with each passing year.

    WFS says they’ve grown to literally hundreds of meetings since ’76 but won’t say where they are.

    MM has 13 conveniently located weekly meetings nationwide. And 3 in the rest of the world.

    Because there are alcoholics all over the world, Smart has 1 in India, and 1 in New Zealand, and 1 in Brazil (no that closed, sorry), and a few other countries.

    So, the Doctor can perhaps be forgiven for disappointing you so gravely. Some of these plan bs have been around 30 years now, several are hitting the 20yr mark. It would seem they should have more activity, but they do not.

    Examining the reality within them in some detail is fun, and makes it obvious why they remain on the far, far outside fringe of recovery. Would you really expect the Dr to mention some program that has 3 people meeting up each week 5 states away from her?”

    That said Michael’s post reads like one of those “take what you need and leave the rest” suggestions from AA. That is to say slightly baffled bull-shit. Their top page says that people seeking help have finally found a place where they can post and leave your Steps, Higher Powers, praying, preaching, and proselytizing at the door. Yet they knowingly had a rabid stepper guiding the discussions. It’s bizarre. I’m not the only person who went there and immediately left without posting because of the insidious stepper message that permeates every thread. Here’s the way it works guys; no Steps, Higher Powers, praying, preaching (and what’s with the weird capitalization there guys?) = not AA; ergo: if you have a person who believes that these things are necessary to any approach to alcohol abuse or alcohol dependence problems then you are undermining your own message. You can’t have it both ways. If you have someone who represents your organization that undermines every single thing that you stand for then what the hell are you doing?

  358. AnnaZed says:

  359. AnnaZed says:

    It’s something like having this guy as your forum greeter.

  360. SoberPJ says:

    I think they don’t know what they are doing. Look at the upcoming convention agenda. The first day agenda makes it seem like there will be all of 20 people there. You can’t conduct a planning meeting with 1,000 people. It’s a joke. No wonder somebody like JD can get in there, the “leadership” has no clue. There, I said it. And you know what? Some people from Life Ring are going to read that and agree with me.

  361. Jonny Quest says:

    “m2 (1074michael1): The folks at ST are convinced we were victimized by a stepper, as perhaps some of them were, but that is just not the case.”

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.38

    I hate to say it, but something is VERY WRONG with the logic here. Supposing for a moment that “perhaps” *only* the folks at ST were victimized, that still is not right.

    You have a MODERATOR of an online LifeRing support forum – and therefore an online representative of LifeRing – who held that position for years – go on many other forums and FOR MONTHS tried to victimize people.

    Not that he could deny it, but he even admitted it:

    “Mondotuna: I got angry at the things being said about AA members and the AA program at an anti-AA site and for months posted things to make them feel bad and disrupt their efforts, doing my best to be caustic, ridicule them, and was sometimes very mean in my comments.”

    We’ll set aside for the moment that he also admits having been “SEVERAL TIMES dismissive of LifeRing”:

    Mondotuna: Not my best behavior ever, and it wound up badly when I was outed as one of the moderators here. Nothing discussed by any LR member was used in my comments over there. In promoting AA to them I was several times dismissive of LifeRing, which I do feel is the very best of the alternatives to AA and the one I’d likely have chose to get sober with had it been around back then.

    I think we’re all mindful here that this caught people at LifeRing by surprise, and we don’t expect them to get to the bottom of it immediately, but come on, now.

    Add to this the suggestion by a real “LifeRing Online Representative” (Steve) that this should all be swept under the rug,as opposed to, say, posting some sort of message on here that the matter is being looked in to, and it sounds like the old “that’s not AA – that doesn’t happen in MY home group” defense.

  362. Primrose says:

    I didn’t pick up his attacks on Massive (I tended to skip his posts), but I did notice his questionning of JRH. I think it is interesting that it was yet another attack on someone who espoused a method (Steven Slate) that led to him being exposed. And fitting.

  363. JR Harris says:

    You have to LOVE Google and it’s ability to determine what is going on. If you look at the LifeRing “it’s been a pleasure” thread it is now advertising a Treatment Center that blazenly says:

    “Get Instant Answers on Admissions, Cost & Insurance Via Secure and Confidential Chat.”

    With a nice big “CONFIDENTIAL CHAT +” button on it.

  364. Sally says:

    JR, for me that quote just about summed up why this JD debacle is so important: Re Lifering “Get Instant Answers on Admissions, Cost & Insurance Via Secure and Confidential Chat.” NOTHING is confidential and secure and although they may not be making money now it certainly appears that that is the goal – by lies, ommission, it doesn’t matter how they occomplish this. It is obvious too that although good/caring people may “work” for them, the company doesn’t seem to care a lick. IMO. BTW, in the future this JD/Montuna situation will be the first thing I think of when Lifering comes to mind.

  365. Primrose says:

    Why is (is it?) the mollys forum down? JD/Carre was/has been prolific there for years?

  366. JR Harris says:

    LifeRing isn’t advertising with a nice big “CONFIDENTIAL CHAT +” button on it, that is from an Ad that google has placed at the top of the chat from a different company. Sorry, I should have made it a little clearer in my post.

  367. Jonny Quest says:

    I like this Karma person – she thinks like me.

    That said, if what she says is true, that’s not good. Both this “Don” moderator and “Mondotuna” doing side “coaching” for women.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.43

    From: Karma0697 7:48 am
    To: steverino63 unread (43 of 43)
    2725.43 in reply to 2725.37

    Steve,

    As a an On Line LifeRing Representive, I question your advice to Magit to seek advice from “Coach” Don.

    Life Ring has no coaches, and it was Don who appointed like minded Jerry to the moderation post in the first place.

    I am also confused about Michael’s post, defending a caustic, sardonic 12 stepping moderator. THIS is what LifeRing thinks is appropriate for a supprtive recovery environment? Then why are we here in the first place? Why don’t we just got to an AA on line site?

    And as moderator Jerry did have access to info others did not.

    With Don and Jerry, people ( usually women) were asked to take publc pledges, and Don was doing “personal” coaching with women, in private, by phone and email and asking them not to mention it publically on the site. He sent them pages and pages of a massive 4th step.

    Yes Don, I know all about it. And I have persmission from one woman to mention it , if it would help others not get caught up in it. I know more Don But given that ST is copying everything I won’t. At least not yet. However, I am going to conatctg Crag with an offical email of complant. It is long overdo.

    I agree with Mary we need to get back to supporting one another’s sobriety and freedom from addiction.

    I jsut want it be LifeRing. And I want it properly hosted by a LifeRing representative.

    Karma

    ETA And I see no reason to close this thread down. There is valuable information here and it will fade away to the archives ONCE the issue is dealt with responsibly.

    LR needs to step up and face the problem. Not sweep it under the rug.

  368. Rick045 says:

    @Primrose, I got to where I skipped most of his posts too. I thought he had value here for a while because he made such a good foil. His ignorance of that role is what determined that value. He tried to change his style over time, but it only became a different kind of nasty. I had to learn my lessons about steppers the hard way, and his supporters elsewhere may just have to experience the same thing.
    I thought AnnaZed summed it up best early in this thread when she wrote: “What it reminds us all of but which can’t really be repeated enough is never, ever trust anyone in AA, never.”

  369. Jonny Quest says:

    Since I have no moral or ethical problems with copying and pasting posts that are already publicly accessible to anyone – I am not changing things – I provide a link to the original, I like this emitman person too.

    One thing to keep in mind here:

    Only this “Steve” (steverino63) is acting as an Online LifeRing Representative.

    Everyone else, save Margit, is just a regular member of LifeRing or the forum.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.41

    From: emitman 4:51 am
    To: mkh106
    2725.41 in reply to 2725.35

    “nor is it funny to read that we’re mostly thought of as slightly slow over here….:)”

    margit

    Well it’s no wonder!, a stepper (jerry mondotuna) was handed the reins of the forum by another stepper (don s) and you couldn’t see what was happening?

    By the way margit do you have any involvement with 12 step groups? or to put it bluntly, are you a supporter of the 12 step cult?

    I think that anyone who becomes moderator of this forum should make it clear if they are involved with those groups,I often wonder how many people have lost faith in lifering due to the sarcastic responses from mondotuna.

    I first came here looking for an alternative to a/a and i found it here, i vented about the a/a cult, it done me good and has helped me to get sober, let’s try to make this a safe place for people who want nothing to do with a/a (steppers).

    There are 100’s of step groups online, why come here if not to undermine it?

  370. Sally says:

    Wow!!! It seems that Lifering has another problem on there hands with Coach Don. The JD/Mondotuna debacle doesn’t appear to be an isolated incident.

    Taken from Jonny’s quote of Karma from Lifering “Don was doing “personal” coaching with women, in private, by phone and email and asking them not to mention it publically on the site. He sent them pages and pages of a massive 4th”. That’s so similar to 13th stepping it’s eery and scary!!!! It seems to me that it is all trying to be swept under the carpet by LR too (AA all over again) with them wanting to remove the thread.

    I do not have any account with LR but whomever suggested that their members be given the opportunity to come over to ST to talk about this had a good idea! It may be helpful for them to know some people are willing to listen. Chatting about it in their forum is like discussing 13th stepping within an AA meeting.

    Sally

  371. SoberPJ says:

    It’s heating up over at Life Ring and some truths are coming out… There are some smart people over at Life Ring and they need to be heard about their concerns. They should come here and let it all hang out. I like this Karma person. He/She groks it and isn’t afraid to speak out. I think JD/Mondotuna counted on the meekness of recovering people so they wouldn’t speak up. Pay back’s a bitch and he deserves way more than he’s getting.

    ” Steve,

    As a an On Line LifeRing Representive, I question your advice to Magit to seek advice from “Coach” Don.

    Life Ring has no coaches, and it was Don who appointed like minded Jerry to the moderation post in the first place.

    I am also confused about Michael’s post, defending a caustic, sardonic 12 stepping moderator. THIS is what LifeRing thinks is appropriate for a supprtive recovery environment? Then why are we here in the first place? Why don’t we just got to an AA on line site?

    And as moderator Jerry did have access to info others did not.

    With Don and Jerry, people ( usually women) were asked to take publc pledges, and Don was doing “personal” coaching with women, in private, by phone and email and asking them not to mention it publically on the site. He sent them pages and pages of a massive 4th step.

    Yes Don, I know all about it. And I have persmission from one woman to mention it , if it would help others not get caught up in it. I know more Don But given that ST is copying everything I won’t. At least not yet. However, I am going to conatctg Crag with an offical email of complant. It is long overdo.

    I agree with Mary we need to get back to supporting one another’s sobriety and freedom from addiction.

    I jsut want it be LifeRing. And I want it properly hosted by a LifeRing representative.

    Karma

    ETA And I see no reason to close this thread down. There is valuable information here and it will fade away to the archives ONCE the issue is dealt with responsibly.

    LR needs to step up and face the problem. Not sweep it under the rug. ”

    I knew there was an offline component to this and in time it would surface. Don S probably showed Mondotuna all the ropes. What to say, how not to get caught, make sure the women agree to keep it confidential, cover your tracks, maybe even as somebody else – ” hey, since I am the moderator here, I’m going to have a friend send you a fourth step and maybe you and him can get together to stay sober. He’s a really nice guy and he has helped a lot of people just like you.” Don’t laugh, stranger things happen.

    My guess is more people than Karma know the dirty laundry and it is time for them to come forward and stop being abused sheep ! They should know that they can come here and anonymously lay it all out and if they’ve been abused we will be supportive – it’s what we do. They will find genuine and non-manipulative support here.

    Their convention is going to be a doosy. They have every right to demand answers to the inconsistencies and bizarre nature of the operation. These people are effectively placing their mental health and well being into the hands of the LR organization and this is what they get ? Oh, I’d be pissed too !

  372. AllyB says:

    This is just so bloody sad. I feel really awful for the people who wanted/needed the option of the type of group LifeRing is meant to be and ended up with steppisms, predatory behaviour and now, when it comes out, attempts to hide it and pretend it’s not happening. :(

  373. SoberPJ says:

    An Open Message To Online Life Ringers –

    Hi, I want to say I understand your confusion around this Mondotuna/JD debacle. It must be difficult to deal with being betrayed in such a visible and blatant manner. If you have information about further abuses, it is your right and duty to bring them forward to cleanse the Life Ring organization of corruption and subversive activity. It is now obvious that Life Ring management is not going to act in your best interest until there is pressure to do so. That pressure may have to come from publicly exposing the errant behavior of others in the organization. Unfortunately, sometimes, that is the only way change is made.

    Now is the time to bring these issues to the forefront. People are watching and there is beginning to be frank dialog of the issues. Add your voice to the chorus, because it will be a lone voice that can be easily ignored or dismissed in the future. The time to speak is now.

    We have been criticized for copying and pasting posts from your forum. This is the brave new world of the internet and copying and pasting works both ways. Copy things from this site and paste them in your forum posts to make a point or ask a question. It is not bad form or “stealing”, they are simply words on your computer screen to be used as you see fit. Public forums are pretty much wide open and you should assume anything that is written can be used in any manner, unless there is some sort of prior agreement on use rights. I give you direct permission to use my words from this blog if you want to. There, any hesitation to use my words should be gone.

    I will say it again, feel free to post your opinions here. Don’t be bashful, speak out ! I can tell you from personal experience , as I’m sure others here can, stepping up and speaking out here about things that bother you and need to be said is very therapeutic. It does a body good to speak your piece even if it is anonymous. Speak it, be heard ! Don’t be a sheep, they rely on you to be sheep so they can continue with their bizarre conduct. You deserve better and the only way to get it is to speak out, now !

  374. Jonny Quest says:

    @SoberPJ:

    Therapeutic – that’s an interesting way to describe Stinkin’ Thinkin’…

    I don’t know about others, but the only way that I will ever go back to “the rooms” is to personally escort someone there for their first meeting if they have to go and have never gone before, or to personally escort someone out.

    As for online “recovery” forums – most of which are WIDE OPEN – I am now convinced they are bad news as well.

    Initially, I thought that some of Jack Trimpey’s advice with regard to recovery groups and counselors was perhaps a bit paranoid, but having seen it first hand from the inside now, I see that his is the only “alternative” organization telling it how it is and properly warning people – all the others are passively complicit.

  375. Primrose says:

    @Rick045; I used to skip his posts because I am using st as a deprograming tool. I amm now not skipping them becausm they illustrate the mania of a cult member.

    Is Mollys still offline? Mondo had a great presence there. I have known him from there for many years which is why I linked immediately to that site.

  376. Primrose says:

    I agree with every extreme of Jack Trimpey’s view of the cult.
    I would like to just stop people going at all, unless they sign a disclaimer, letting their families know that joining the cult means they will be morally absent and very very smug.

  377. Primrose says:

    @Sally; the only person from the cult that I have contact with is my very own 13 stepper. He ‘admits that ‘When I was younger, it was a good place to pick up a shag’. I think he is fairly typical. If the cult was only full of old men, I would be ok with it. He is also computer illiterate and when I showed him print outs from the ops he thought that I had written it all. I think that he also thinks that I have invented the internet. He agrees with all of it and agrees that it is a pathetic cult. Yet when he goes to meetings (he hasn’t been for 3 months and none of his decades-long friends at the cult have bothered with him) he does the full ‘AA/this fellowship (puke) has saved my life’ rubbish.

  378. Primrose says:

    Although I missed the ‘British man’ who mike refers to; on mollys by a few weeks, I think that he also would remember Mondotuna. It is a memorable name and it was a memorable personality.

  379. flannigan says:

    Groups in general can be fraught with danger. “Recovery” groups even more so. Group dynamics exert a tremendous pressure on the individual to conform to the group norm, regardless of the consequences to the individual. Be forewarned and informed as to what you are getting into and examine if this is the best scenario for what you wish to accomplish. And please remember, the group is supposed to exist for the betterment of the individual, not the other way around.

  380. Sally says:

    @ Sally, I’m responding to your comment in the neverending thread.

  381. Sally says:

    I mean primrose ;)

  382. Sally says:

    Oh shoot I meant in “why I left AA”. I was trying to be considerate to others (in the JD thread and LR) and not confuse them but got confused myself, lol.

  383. Primrose says:

    @Flannigan; agree about groups. And with Steven Slate about ‘recovery’.

  384. Jonny Quest says:

    FTG:

    I sent this entire thread, and the one on the LifeRing forum, to the e-mail addresses at LifeRing and copied you on it.

    All 167 Pages in Adobe PDF format for easy viewing and printing.

    Just in case you want to respond and add something.

  385. SoberPJ says:

    Is this an example of Mondotuna driving someone off the Life Ring forum? The guy was having problems with AA and needed some perspective .. It’s in the left naviagation area under “Migrating from AA or RR” ..”Anger at AA members”

    http://tinyurl.com/6f2daq6

    The OP stopped viewing after a little exchange with our buddy.

  386. AnnaZed says:

    PJ, I don’t think that’s the right link. I highlighted that conversation earlier. What on earth are the LifeRing people thinking having this person barking and biting and sniping at anyone who criticizes AA? In fact their position that people can “be in both fellowships” is ridiculous; let alone have a stepper man their boards. It shows a complete lack of understanding of even the basics of AA, or what AA really is.

  387. Jonny Quest says:

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.46

    From: Paul17761 12:47 pm
    To: ALL (46 of 46)
    2725.46 in reply to 2725.45

    Let me break it down for you all:

    Something is VERY WRONG with the logic here. Supposing for a moment that “perhaps” *only* the folks at ST were victimized, that still is not right.

    You have a MODERATOR of an online LifeRing support forum – and therefore an online representative of LifeRing – who held that position for years – go on many other forums and FOR MONTHS tried to victimize people.

    Not that he could deny it, since the messages are available, but he even admitted it:

    “Mondotuna: I got angry at the things being said about AA members and the AA program at an anti-AA site and for months posted things to make them feel bad and disrupt their efforts, doing my best to be caustic, ridicule them, and was sometimes very mean in my comments.”

    We’ll set aside for the moment that he also admits having been “SEVERAL TIMES dismissive of LifeRing”:

    “Mondotuna: Not my best behavior ever, and it wound up badly when I was outed as one of the moderators here. Nothing discussed by any LR member was used in my comments over there. In promoting AA to them I was several times dismissive of LifeRing, which I do feel is the very best of the alternatives to AA and the one I’d likely have chose to get sober with had it been around back then.”

    Jerry/Mondotuna also posted several thinly-veiled threats against MassiveAttack, who is trying to get the word out that people in AA are being RAPED – Yes – RAPED, in order to get her to stop doing so.

    Now it seems that Jerry/Mondotuna was not only stalking people across multiple forums, including Sober Recovery, like he did with some, but was also giving private “coaching” to vulnerable women here.

    Everyone is mindful that this must have taken everyone by surprise, and we don’t expect you to get to the bottom of it immediately, but come on, now.

    Add to this the suggestion by a real “LifeRing Online Representative” (Steve) that this should all be swept under the rug, as opposed to, say, doing the proper thing and posting some sort of message on Stinkin’ Thinkin’ that the matter is being looked in to, and one must conclude that something is VERY WRONG here, in the moral and ethical sense.

  388. Jonny Quest says:

    Migrating from AA to RR – Anger at AA members:

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=lifering&msg=2368.1&maxT=15

  389. AnnaZed says:

    The more I read of that LifeRing board, the more that I realize that it isn’t even stepper-lite ~ it’s just more step junk with a lying manipulative public self-declaration (in fact pretty much the same as AA with it’s spiritual not religious disclaimer bull-shit). They spout a bit about leaving their faith at the door but practically every single thread devolves to a stepper bromide of some sort. They really are pretty pathetic.

    I don’t know now if it was JD/Mondotuna/Cabledude/le Carré that screwed up their thing or if they just did it to themselves. For people spouting stepper mantras they seem to have a lot of problems with being honest with themselves (just like people in AA! funny thing) yet be unable to comprehend that 12-step theology is pretty much a prescription for self doubt, recriminations, misery, fear and vulnerability to manipulation and that pretending that you are going to leave “God” out of it is just more stepism with an added layer of mendacity.

    No wonder JD/Mondotuna/Cabledude/le Carré thrived there. Maybe they are right, he shouldn’t leave them. Maybe they would be lost without him. What they should do promptly though is change their intro page, it’s really dishonest.

  390. AnnaZed says:

    JQ, that thread is hilarious, it starts with someone stating that they are pissed off about being manipulated in AA and the LifeRing coach manipulates him with the “let go of your anger” crap straight from the AA playbook. No wonder these poor people are such a mess.

  391. JR Harris says:

    I think we should all remember that this is not a fight between the hosts of LifeRing or this blog.

    Nobody can hurt me without my permission. A man is but the product of his thoughts. What he thinks, he becomes. We must be the change we wish to see. – Mahatma Ghandi

  392. SoberPJ says:

    Thanks AZ and JQ .. for some reason I couldn’t go directly to the message link and my link was really long so I used tinyurl .. It looks like the JD rage is spreading..from the SOS forum.

    “JD, aka “mondotuna”

    get off this forum and stay off.”

    JD gotta be some kind of spinningly mad serenity hornet right about now. In between bouts of weeping, no doubt. I wonder if he has told his AA sponsor about all this ? Sponsor would say, “well, you brought all this on yourself. You gonna make amends? It’s the right thing to do.” then JD says, ” well, let’s wait and see if they find out everything. I’m not going to make amends for the things they don’t discover.”

  393. AnnaZed says:

    @JR, I’m not fighting with the hosts (or members) of LifeRing, but I am deconstructing their public face for them, their public actions and their stated goals and from where I sit it really needs some work.

    [oh, and in the future don’t even dream in your sleep of playing nanny to me]

  394. MikeAugustine says:

    maybe LR is a more sophisticated bait that is intended for the AA switch? Just thinking out loud.

  395. Jonny Quest says:

    JR Harris says: “I think we should all remember that this is not a fight between the hosts of LifeRing or this blog.”

    I have to agree with JR. I say wait to see how the actual people in charge of LifeRing choose to respond to this incident.

    They will have to now.

  396. SoberPJ says:

    In that thread from Vis, now that we know JD, we can see the direct mocking that he was doing. It could be taken as concurring advice, but it’s really that smarmy keep AA pure shit he spouts. This is helpful?

    ” 2368.7 in reply to 2368.5

    FWIW, I completely back you up in this, Vis. Your plan sounds excellent, and I hope you implement it immediately and never succumb to any future temptation to turn back. We each need to find the best possible place to grow in our sobriety, and I’m certain your choice here will result in an improved environment.

    Great decision, Vis.”

    He left out, ” and when it doesn’t work and you come crawling back to AA maybe then you will be ready to humble yourself and do the only thing that works for real alcoholics. Until then, I’ll enjoy watching you relapse…over and over again”

    Really sick dude.

  397. Jonny Quest says:

    AnnaZed says: “The more I read of that LifeRing board, the more that I realize that it isn’t even stepper-lite…They spout a bit about leaving their faith at the door but practically every single thread devolves to a stepper bromide of some sort.”

    Sadly, I have to agree with Anna as well, here. This seems to happen with all forums that want to be “inclusive” though.

    The 12-Step true believers have a divine mission of sorts, and they have no interest in being inclusive, though they may pay lip service to the idea.

    They truly believe that they must try to carry the message in order to not drink again (and die).

  398. AnnaZed says:

    Am I getting beffuddled or was that post that starts “…Let me break it down for you all:…” originally posted here?

  399. SoberPJ says:

    For the Life Ring people, my last post was an example of connecting the dots. He was mocking someone in need while trying to keep the not real alcoholic out of AA to create an “improved environment”.

    Also, I totally agree this is not a LR vs ST deal.

    In the end, this entire situation will be the best thing for Life Ring. If they survive, and they probably will, it will make them more focused and driven by more highly refined ideals than they have been to date. That is a very good thing and I would welcome a shout out thank you from them to ST for helping them in their development as an organization. We’re very helpful here don’tchaknow.

  400. Jonny Quest says:

    AnnaZed says: Am I getting beffuddled or was that post that starts “…Let me break it down for you all:…” originally posted here?

    Yes, it was, mostly.

  401. Doreen says:

    I am just getting wind of this. Having been a LifeRing safe group member for several years (not the same as the delphi forum), I gotta say that I am absolutely shocked by all this. Sometimes I am far too trusting, I guess. I expect people, for the most part, to be who they say they are.

    The reason I left LifeRing last year was that I was becoming irritated at all of the AA speak–not so much slogans as just the whole attitude of some of the members. I was viciously attacked in a private email after I made a comment about my concerns on the list. I “talked” to a few people about it but it was pretty much just hushed.

  402. Jonny Quest says:

    A post from Karma. I have to say that I agree that messages directed at LifeRing members in general are in bad form. They do not help.

    I can’t imagine that LifeRing as an organization would condone the sort of behavior that JD/Mondotuna engaged in, and most LifeRing members are probably taken back by the whole thing.

    If you read back, you’ll recall that many of us, who have seen the “caustic, derisive” behavior on here didn’t even believe it at first.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.48

    From: Karma0697 1:36 pm
    To: Paul17761 unread (48 of 50)
    2725.48 in reply to 2725.46
    Paul, please re-read my thread.

    I did not say Jerry was doing private coaching. It was the former moderator Coach Don.

    ————–

    And to all at ST who are now reading and copying these threads:

    I understand your anger at J.D./Monotuna. His actions are unexcuseable.

    But I do take issue with some posters referring to us at LR as losers and the like. This is just as demeaning and abusive as the J.D./Mondotuna you are targeting.

    LR is really just a support group for those of us with alcoholism and various addictions. There are very few rules and no dogma of any kind. We share our struggles and urges in the hopes of not succumbing to them and we exchange ideas of what is helpful in maintaing sobriety. Everyone puts together a program or set of beliefs and actions that are helpful for them personally.

    We are a group of friends who connect both on and off line and have little to do with how the site is run.

    I respectfully request that you honor our space and purpose.

    Also, I have been informed that the Admin at LR is currently gathering information and looking into this issue. I ask your patience unitl decisions are made and actions taken. I have evey confidence LR administrators will act in a responsible manner. If not, then I too will be very angry and sorely disappointed.

    Thank you,

    Karma

  403. Pogue Mahone says:

    My 2 cents..I had joined LifeRing about a year ago when I found ST however ST has hogged most of my my interest in reading about “recovery.” Interesting thing is I had heard complaints by some online friends about some steppers in the LR community but never paid much attention it. Well it’s all starting to make alot of sense now as the conspiracy unfolds.

  404. SoberPJ says:

    Thank you Doreen.. like the monkey :-)

    LR has to know how deep this runs and how many people have been affected and how. There are bodies in the wake of this guy and they need to know how many. One of the quickest ways for an organization to grow today is via online means. If they had someone deliberately sabatoging that portion of their efforts and driving people away, they can pivot and improve. There should be a “l left Life Ring because of online practices” counter on the right side on this thread so we could keep track. You and the Vis person are the tip of the iceberg. And thanks again for speaking out.

  405. Those LifeRing members who don’t find this to be a big deal for LR in general should factor in the fact that JD and cabledude spent a lot of time denigrating LR around the internet. Those posts are in the major recovery forums, where they will be seen by thousands of people looking for help. One of his mantras is that “plan b” options are for people who aren’t ready for AA. They’re good for trying out sobriety, but when you’re sick of relapsing and are ready to finally get real, AA will be there.

    In other words, anyone who uses a “plan b” isn’t serious about getting well… yet. But it’s an OK way to diddle around with sobriety until you really mean it.

    A message like that, of course, will scare a lot of people away from LR, and the result is decreased membership for LifeRing, which hurts the organization as a whole.

    Of course, he is entitled to express his opinion on that, but it’s beyond inappropriate for the main moderator of their online forum to be working at cross purposes to the very survival of the organization he represents.

    For instance, here’s cableguy from Daily Strength http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Alcoholism/forum/11727946-fell-off :


    For support groups you can choose from SOS, The Hamsters, WFS, MM abs’ers, LifeRing, Smart, WTF, ect. There are some church sponsored groups too out there.

    I recommend trying them each for 6 months at a time to get a good feel. Then afterwards, like in about 5 years you can try AA.

    No rush, take it easy and savor the experience of doing each group, one after the other. Getting to AA too soon doesn’t make sense, as people who aren’t desperate just figure they only need to show up and not do anything, which is a waste of everybody’s time.

    Think how much more open minded you’ll be after 5 more years of living like this. You may not pay much attention at all then to your thoughts of what you don’t feel like doing. Works best that way.

    And again:


    Welcome LG, I for one fully endorse your not attending f2f AA at this time. There are lots of paths to explore and AA is always there if you find down the road you have no other choice. Going too early is almost always a mistake.

    LifeRing (unhooked.com) would be a great place to try just not drinking. They have a wonderful, understanding and very sexy moderator there.

    Rational Recovery materials and forum participation is a little pricey, but the owner will love you forever for being his customer.

    SMART will keep you busy for a while, for sure. You can expect the same good results you see others getting.

    Moderation Management also supports those who chose abstinence, more than ever after the past 8yrs.

    Harm Reduction group on Yahoo.com is one you just gotta check out, and they will support abstinence or anything at all and even support you in actively destroying your life with booze.

    SOS is mostly confined to Southern Calif, since the founder was busted lying his butt off, and the SoCal crowd doesn’t seem to care. Hurry if you want to try this, it’s shinking away fast.

    Hold off from doing AA until you get to the point that you’d stand on your head naked at the largest intersection of your town to stop drinking. When you hit that point, you know you’re finally marinated enough and it’s time to get well.

    oh, all of the above is my opinion, and others may have different opinions, which they believe are valuable and true and are often proven out in some strange universe inaccessible to the rest of humanity.

    Cabledude repeats this message too many times to paste them all here, but it’s clear that he’s presenting LR as an option for people who aren’t yet willing to do what it takes to get well. This is not an endorsement of LifeRing, it’s a complete dismissal… it’s a place to dick around until you’re ready for the real deal. When you put it like that, who in their right mind would choose LifeRing? And when he presents himself as someone in a position to know, his opinion of LifeRing’s efficacy holds more weight. And anyone who reads his comments and tries LifeRing anyway will enter with the seed of doubt that just might result in their failure in LifeRing.

  406. Pogue Mahone says:

    Heres a repost of jerry’s STEP work AT SOS.

    ‘” Well done on your 16 months, but the truth is you have no authority to speak from that has the slightest credibility or credentials until you’re over 3 yrs. No one is listening to you or cares at all about how you see things.”

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/sosdiscussion/messages/?msg=249.1

  407. AntiDenial says:

    Lifering and others to to erase all of his posts-this is disgusting.
    What patronizing crap. Makes me sick.

  408. Jonny Quest says:

    @FTG:

    You are right. He was definitely trying to subvert “the enemy” – any program that is not AA. I have to hand it to him, though, it was effective.

    I used to read cabledude’s posts on Sober Recovery, some in response to mine, and I used to wonder about the disconnect between even his own posts.

    He would post on the secular forums, but on the 12-Step forum he would act like an Über- Sponsor, a true AA guru.

    He knew how to work the program properly, and others did not, and he would let them know.

  409. SoberPJ says:

    I still like Karma and he/she is trying but they have to understand the valuable service we have been providing to their organization. That service comes with a little grit but our observations are mostly extremely valuable to them. Without ST, Mondotuna could be driving off another person in need right this moment and they would have no clue, just like it was last week. Don’t they want to know if their organizations leadership is viewed as inept and bungling? Don’t they want to know the intricacies of this deception so they can figure out how deep it goes and create policies and procedures and the intellectual accumen to keep it from happening again? I hope I’m not being mean, but simply making sense. Why would I want to belong to an organization that has an amorphous charter that isn’t upheld and has been infiltrated by someone with a completely different agenda, and that person is in a position of trust and authority? That’ s the kind of club I want to belong to(sarcasm). Our company pays good money for consultants to come in and tell us this kind of stuff.. and we’re doing it for free and they don’t see the value of our efforts.

    Life Ring members, you may not realize it, but Stinkin-Thinkin.com is the single most valuable asset you have for getting to the bottom of the mess you find yourself in. Use it.

  410. AnnaZed says:

    I wonder if JD/Mondotuna actually is personally responsible for the death of the SOS board, I think that he might be.

    This tidbit from his Cabledude persona on Daily Stength is particularly disturbing:
    LifeRing (unhooked.com) would be a great place to try just not drinking. They have a wonderful, understanding and very sexy moderator there.
    I don’t think that he’s talking about Margit; I think that he means himself.
    That combined with his answer under “sexual orientation” on his Delphi Forums page:
    Sexual Orientation ~ always points North/Northwest (ick, not funny!) and his rabid frothing, constant baiting and attacking of massive attack and her campaign to rid the AA program of sexual predation really makes one go … ah … then, ewwww.

  411. Primrose says:

    ‘Craig’ has commented on LR. AZ; don’t be hard on jrh. I think he is speaking to people other than you. I have made a great cock up in my time. And I also thought that orange had invented links. My aa mate thought that I invented the internet. I think that some people, and I would include myself, need that nudge.

  412. Jonny Quest says:

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.53

    From: CWhalley 2:27 pm
    To: ALL
    2725.53 in reply to 2725.1

    Well, you got my attention! I’m Craig, LifeRing’s Executive Director. I’m not a regular visitor to the Forum and have taken it for granted, I’m afraid.

    Like all LifeRing groups, the Forum is autonomous and self-governing, so the organizational leadership keeps hands off until it becomes clear that some sort of intervention is needed. We don’t “sweep things under the rug;” we allow members of a group to find solutions to problems that arise.

    On the other hand, we do bear responsibility to see that our groups are functioning within the general philosophy of LifeRing, and that they are following our basic principals of offering Sober, Secular Self-help. To that end, we try to backstop some of the administrative matters and we try to ensure that groups function reasonably smoothly and they nothing happens that besmirches our name.

    I read through Jerry’s post and all the replies, and I visited the Stinkin’ Thinkin’ blog and read as many of those comments as I could stand. The latter site was typical of the tone I find in the comments to partisan political blogs I read — very hyperbolic, conspiracy-minded and playing extremely fast and loose with things like truth and facts. That’s okay — it’s the nature of internet commenting — but it’s not a place to look for real information.

    Here’s what I’m going to be talking to Steve (the LifeRing Online coordinator) about: finding a new ‘host’ to replace Marty — it’s obviously not a demanding job, since he’s been inactive for a year; seeing if we can replace the gavel (“hammer”) symbol and finding someone to help Margit in her duties — I promise we won’t leave her alone!

    When I say finding a new host or finding a new assistant host, I mostly mean asking YOU to find new leaders. You wouldn’t want someone I or the organization picked — the Forum counts as an autonomous LifeRing meeting and as such is perfectly entitled to generate its own leadership. I suggest a thread aimed at exactly that. If you, working together, can’t find leaders, we’ll try to do so.

    As for the details of the current controversy, it’s not clear to me what the actual facts are — there are accusations and denials of violations of privacy. The Forum is internet based and all posts are available to the world, so I’m not clear on what is being complained about. Attaching real names and/or email addresses, gleaned directly from the writer through off-list contacts, to such quotes would indeed be a gross violation. But accusations are not facts. It’s clear that many people believe that bad things were done, but while I’m sympathetic to the distress, it’s a poor basis for action.

    We’ll keep you posted on our progress.

    Craig

  413. Primrose says:

    If anyone from LifeRing is reading this then I would like to reiterate that Mondotuna’s attacks on Massive related to her attempts to highlight the rapes, YES RAPES, that go on within the fellowship. Stop13stepinaa

  414. AnnaZed says:

    Yeah OK Craig, we’re just lying conspiracy nuts. If that attitude is working out for you by all means just keep it right up.

  415. Jonny Quest says:

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.54

    From: Paul17761 2:43 pm
    To: CWhalley (54 of 54)
    2725.54 in reply to 2725.53

    Craig,
    It is good to see that someone is paying attention.

    You do realize that LifeRing’s official online forum has been, in effect, infiltrated by a twisted individual who appears to have been working to undermine LifeRing, though, no?

    LifeRing is not as established in the real world as, say, AA or SMART Recovery, so your online presence does matter, particularly in this day and age.

    Mondotuna was not only #### on Stinkin’ Thinkin’, but also “Cabledude” on the Sober Recovery and Daily Strength forums. He trashed LifeRing and EVERY SINGLE OTHER NON-AA program too many times to count.

    This, of course, is in addition to his psychological predatory behavior.

    [FTG Post highlighting CableDude’s antics appended]

  416. Jonny Quest says:

    This would seem to indicate that the LifeRing forum was indeed being sabotaged:

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.52

    From: emitman 2:10 pm
    To: steverino63 (52 of 54)
    2725.52 in reply to 2725.49

    This thread should be left open for all to see, too much is hidden in this world today, when things like this are open for the world to see it hopefully deters other sickos from preying on the weak and vulnerable.

    I saw first hand in London step groups what these people are capable of, the 13th stepping (rape) that went on was disgusting,and yes it is rape when so called “old timers” prey on newcomers.

    I’m sober 3.5 years, mainly using AVRT from jack trimpey’s site, but i got a lot of support from people in the chat room here,not the chat room as it is today, but in the days when steppers weren’t tolerated.

  417. mikeblamedenial says:

    Here you go, Craig, since you like political comparisons:

  418. Jonny Quest says:

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.49

    From: steverino63 1:45 pm
    To: Karma0697 (49 of 54)
    2725.49 in reply to 2725.48

    Karma … probably it was a bit of overstatement to say delete this thread; I was trying to “stop the bleeding” to over there.

    I don’t know if Delphi has adjustable privacy settings for its forum bulletin boards. On Ning, I have it set so that only the front page is visible to nonmembers, and I’ve suggested Margit see if something similar is doable here, and ASAP.

    I have made some other suggestions directly to her, and have offered to backstop, in an administrative role here, her and any new co-administrators she names.

    Steve

  419. JR Harris says:

    Craig – If you want real information, just ask me. I can point you in the right direction:

    Code of Federal Regulations

    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/cfr/index.html

    (Search under whatever topic you want – This is the Federal Laws providing a baseline that all States have to follow)

  420. Primrose says:

    He has also been a mainstay of mollys, the ‘unofficial uk aa site’ for many years. Many years.

  421. AnnaZed says:

    @Primrose, interestingly, today and yesterday the UK Molly’s forum is and has been down.

  422. Primrose says:

    @Doreen; thanks for posting. I think that a lot of people on this site are fairly flabbergasted at the turn of events; I know I am. Please check out Massive’s site. stop12stepinaa. Have you had a look at the list of resources on the right of this page?

    I didn’t really read jd’s posts because I have always been more interested in other people’s stories and ideas as to how the aa cult can be exposed. I don’t really know what to think. I tend to think that he thought that he was doing the right thing. Which is fairly disturbing.

  423. Primrose says:

    @AZ; I know. And names from that site have been on lr. I keep telling y’all; he is a mainstay on mollys and has been for YEARS.

  424. Primrose says:

    Someone else from this site has heard of him from another site but my experience is of him as a Walter Brimley presence on mollys (where is molly?) for years. That is why I posted immediately after reading the name Mondotuna. Unforgettable.

  425. AnnaZed says:

    Oh I believe you Primrose, I believe you.

  426. SoberPJ says:

    Ok, so Craig HAS to minimize the whole thing – it’s part of his job. He can’t come on and say OMFG this is really bad and it’s a terrible mess. No, first, admit an issue, second discredit the messenger, third,suggest some remedies, fourth, commit to get to the bottom of it, fifth, we’re great, stiff upper lip and all that. He did most of them. Behind the scenes he is totally freaked. He has a board level issue to deal with to determine the legal exposure and he has a conference coming up tomorrow where he will have to know as much as he can about this and it isn’t an area he pays much attention to so there is a steep learning curve of the real damage JD has done to his org. Wouldn’t want to be him right now… and I can almost guarantee it’s gonna get worse. All that it is going to take is a woman from Life Ring who was duped into unwanted sex with Mr North by Northwest to come forward. They may not call it 13 Stepping in Life Ring, but it is sure to be just as unfunny. And uh oh, they don’t have that wonderful anonymity thing to hide behind.

  427. Jonny Quest says:

    FYI, I received a response from Craig Whalley, the Executive Director at LifeRing, in response to my sending him the entire threads. I don’t want to post his e-mail, but he said they are working on how to respond.

    I think they get it, at least mostly. I think people should back off on any criticism of LifeRing for the moment, and give them a couple days to absorb it all and figure out what to do.

    Remember, many of us couldn’t even believe this at first, and we had already seen his charming comments.

  428. AnnaZed says:

    Yes well, thank you so much for your share.

  429. Jonny Quest says:

    AnnaZed says: “Yes well, thank you so much for your share.”

    Your remarks do have a certain zing to them – I have to give you that. :-)

  430. SoberPJ says:

    Thanks Jonny, but service providers must do what they do.. we don’t want Craig making decisions with incomplete information. He doesn’t really want that either.

  431. Jonny Quest says:

    @SoberPJ:

    Yeah, I know. You guys will keep doing what you do best. That’s certainly understandable.

    I myself have become disillusioned and don’t advocate any addiction recovery groups or “programs” anymore, but LifeRing seems to be small potatoes compared to the real menace.

  432. SoberPJ says:

    To Craig at Life Ring –

    Dear Craig,

    I see you find yourself in a bit of a “situation”. You have many options in front of you and let me offer some possibly unique perspective. Yes, you have been dumped on with a load of lemons. But you know how the lemon saying goes. I won’t quote it now. The truth is you have been presented with a unique and unprecedented opportunity. Yes, that is correct. You can deal with this debacle in a mundane, traditional way – get new people in place, hide the forum from public view, etc. – or, you can seize the day to explore how your organization can be at the forefront of online recovery support mechanisms. Now THAT would be an announcement for the convention. People would forget Mondotuna/JD/whatever because they would be blinded by the light of your online vision and overwhelmed by your business strategy. Too bad you don’t have a bit more time. Imagine the glory of being in the press with a strategic relationship with Google or Microsoft or Oracle for how you are going to integrate secure forums, Instant Messaging, telecom, multi-stream video, document sharing, and recovery education and training all under the LifeRing banner. Everyone who wants help could come to Life Ring and get it in various formats, 24/7, 365 days a year. You would launch into the future and make it happen today. And, I’m serious. Do you have what it takes to get to the next level? Or, are you going to simply get new moderators and hide from view? You don’t come across this perfect storm of opportunity often, but you probably know that. In one swoop, the JD noise goes away and you expand the organization outward into the latest electronic frontier. Sounds exciting.

    I’d help ya, but, alas, I’m anonymous. However, I think there are people on your forum that may have some really great ideas on how to take the plunge. Ask them.

    With warm and sincerest regards,

    SoberPJ

  433. Here’s one more comment from cableguy — for anyone interested in an example of how LR member’s personal details were exploited in the interest of promoting AA to the wide world:

    http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Alcoholism/forum/8494589-there-better-paths/page-2

    here and there on the west coast are Lifering meetings which are imho the best of the alternative self-help programs.

    if the unwilling and coerced have a place to go other than AA, everyone wins.

    we get to help those who want what we have, and we’ll see some of the survivors later.

    I stay fairly active in the LR program to accomplish exactly that, and to help where I can. out of many hundreds, 3 I’m in contact with have put together 3 yrs.

    one fellow I really liked drank Sunday after 2 yrs, their webmaster drank yesterday. doesn’t work for shit, really. It does however, keep them from scowling in the backs of AA meetings, and forever whining about their misinterpretations of our program between drinking bouts, so all to the good.

  434. Bartow Riggs says:

    Hi,
    I’ve posted a few things here in the past but apparently my username has expired or something.

    Until a couple of years ago I was very active in Lifering. I was the moderator of their “Ning” website (a social site, sorta like FB or myspace) and active in their chat room. I also attended their ftf meetings in my town. At about the same time Doreen left I resigned as moderator and stopped participating in LR because I could not abide the increased tolerance of AA as a LifeRing policy and because they performed a purge of the “undesirables” in their chat room. The “undesirables” of course being those who were the most vocal and very critical of AA.

    I am of the opinion that you can’t have secular “recovery” while condoning a religious cult such as AA. And there is no doubt at all in my mind that the chat coordinator and especially the assistant chat coordinator (at that time) were – very AA tolerant. And that is putting it nicely. There were other things too that were just a little too close to AA’s model for me (like “book study” and validation of the disease model, for instance.)

    However I will mention that I have been in contact with the executive director (Craig) from time-to-time via email (including this week) and I do _not_ think he is an “AA’er” because I remember him stating categorically that he had never participated in AA or been to an AA meeting. He is much more tolerant of AA than me though, for certain.

    It seems to me though that this recent expose’ with the Delphi moderator (JD/Mondo) is something that goes directly to the credibility of LR as an organization and I posted to that effect there last night:

    2725.40 in reply to 2725.39

    Have I missed something? I ask because I might have.

    The moderator of this group has been not only promoting non-secular “recovery” but actively disparaging and ridiculing other models. INCLUDING LIFERING.

    Secular recovery? The issue is credibility for LR.

    This should not be acceptable.

  435. AnnaZed says:

    ftg, the coal-fired effrontery of that post is astounding; what an arrogant duplicitous ass.

    If the directors of LifeRing can’t comprehend how undermining of their mission this is:

    “…I stay fairly active in the LR program to accomplish exactly that, and to help where I can. out of many hundreds, 3 I’m in contact with have put together 3 yrs.

    one fellow I really liked drank Sunday after 2 yrs, their webmaster drank yesterday. doesn’t work for shit, really. It does however, keep them from scowling in the backs of AA meetings, and forever whining about their misinterpretations of our program between drinking bouts, so all to the good.” ;

    Then at least they can understand that posting about members sobriety status is a huge thing. Is he saying that Steve S. was drunk yesterday and was fool enough to turn to him?

    I still contend that these LifeRing folk just have no idea what they are dealing with here, no idea at all. Witness Bartow’s post above; if Craig knows nothing about AA then he knows nothing about the so-called recovery world at all. To set yourself up as an alternative to something you need to understand what that something is. He seems to have no idea the lengths these people are willing to go to, the fervor of their sense of righteousness and entitlement and the ways in which steppism is designed to accommodate pathology, no idea.

  436. Jonny Quest says:

    @AnnaZed: ” To set yourself up as an alternative to something you need to understand what that something is. He seems to have no idea the lengths these people are willing to go to, the fervor of their sense of righteousness and entitlement and the ways in which steppism is designed to accommodate pathology, no idea.”

    You are probably quite correct there. You must know what you are dealing with, and most people have no idea.

    Ever try to explain why you don’t like 12-Steppism to someone who hasn’t seen it, though?

    “Why do you not like it? How can you say it is bad? It helps so many people….”

  437. Jonny Quest says:

    I don’t think they liked my posts.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.58

    From: mkh106 4:55 pm
    To: ALL (58 of 60)
    2725.58 in reply to 2725.57
    hi all,

    after some reflection, this is where i’m at with this:

    i’m not willing to ban or censor or delete anyone/anything that is not a personal attack, as stated on the starting page.

    i’m asking everyone to keep this discussion confined to this thread only, and thank you all for doing that. if it spills over into other threads and disrupts anything there, i will delete posts and put the poster on moderated status, regardless of what flack i get. i do hope nobody feels the dire need to test this, as it is not meant as a provocation but to keep the rest of the forum going for its intended purpose: sobriety support.

    in that vein, this is specifically directed to those who are here not for sobriety support but seemingly to “educate” us on how badly unaware we are of the damage. thank you, we’re aware. we do not need your help, but do feel free to hang out and give sobriety support if you’re so inclined.

    to everyone here a huge “thank you” for staying cool and being helpful. Karma’s reminder that we all can choose what bait to take is excellent to keep in mind.

    on a personal note: i’m very grateful for all the support from the regular LR people here, and for the restraint you’re all showing. thank you, it makes things so much easier. i am looking forward to having a clearly identified host. when i was offered the volunteer position of assistant host and accepted, it was to be “assisting” the “real host”. i have neither the desire nor the aptitude to be a sole host, and frankly do not wish the responsibility, either.

    as some of you are aware, there is a LR Congress coming up, and so the LR officials will be extraordinarily busy.

    i’m sorry i don’t have the time right now to respond to posts individually.

    thanks to all for keeping calm under stressful circumstances,

    margit

  438. AllyB says:

    Re Karma’s comment on the LR forum;

    Did anyone here call the people at LifeRing losers? I don’t have time to read back over this entire thread but the only references I remember to the people using LR being losers were direct quotes from JD (aka Mondotuna). He regularly called them losers, along with people at SMART, RR, etc. Pretty much everyone but hard-working steppers are losers in Jerry’s world, probably the same goes for the never addicted.

  439. Lucy says:

    Allyb – I never heard anyone EXCEPT JD trash LR

  440. AllyB says:

    I’ve always had a lot of time for LR, my husband never went there because, ultimately, he’s not a “group” type of guy. But they were part of his back-up plan, if he hadn’t recovered when he did. They have 5 meetings a week in my city and I have ALWAYS recommended them to people who ask for an “AA alternative.”

    I think their philosophy is sound but this incident has me worried. I know just how vulnerable my husband was when he lost control of himself. I saw first hand how AA was hurting him and I saw it clearer than he did at the time. I know exactly how much damage actions like JD’s would have done to him at that point. The way he “outed” someone who trusted him and has made it clear that he was using they organisation to funnel people into AA.

    LifeRing needs to step up and take care of this. I’m all for self-regulating, I believe that 99% of the time people will rise up to the responsibilities they are given. But people who are looking for help with their addictions are often incredibly vulnerable and that means that if someone creates a space for them, they need to be looking out for them. Because vulnerable people attract predators.

  441. MA says:

    I know next to nothing about Lifering’s program, but what I have read doesn’t seem to be earth shattering or new, and there are some similarities to AA. Of course, I think all of these recovery programs are basically worthless.

    Group support isn’t a bad thing if it’s done right, but I wouldn’t touch Lifering with a ten foot pole after seeing how they run their show. I’m sure there are some good people there, but the place is run a bit like a gong show. Plus, once these steppers poison the well, it’s next to impossible to clean it up again.

  442. Jonny Quest says:

    OK, that is it for me.

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/messages?msg=2725.62

    From: Paul17761 6:16 pm
    To: mkh106 unread (62 of 62)
    2725.62 in reply to 2725.58

    Margit: …in that vein, this is specifically directed to those who are here not for sobriety support but seemingly to “educate” us on how badly unaware we are of the damage. thank you, we’re aware. we do not need your help, but do feel free to hang out and give sobriety support if you’re so inclined.

    I’m sorry if you feel I am here to seemingly educate, but this thread has been going on over on Stinkin’ Thinkin’ for DAYS, and Mondotuna posted his resignation here days ago as well.

    You didn’t find it peculiar in the least that he resigned one day after the Stinkin’ Thinkin’ thread was posted? That he notified you guys before anyone else could do it?

    Why do you think he did that? Because he is such a nice, wholesome boy with nothing to hide?

    It was your choice not to send the moderators on Stinkin’ Thinkin’ ANY response at all, not even a token “someone is looking into this.”

    The threads had already been posted on other sites around the Internet, and things were heating up even more when I first posted here.

    I am mindful that this must not be easy, but I was actually trying to get you people to do something before some other, more reactionary types started spreading the word even faster.

    This is my last post, though – feel free to disable the account.

  443. Lucy says:

    I tried without success to switch my AA habit for one which was more scientific and less religious. What I found in my visits to the various AA alternatives was a dynamic exactly like AA, but with people who had less practice not drinking and the same kind of issues with getting that practice. I just didn’t talk about it until the last few days because I did not want to discourage ANYONE from stopping or modifying in ANY program.

    JD is very busy trying to divert Life Ring’s attention from the liabilities he has created for it. He has nothing to lose by lying, and he has decided to make it a matter of “he said – she said” with ST.

    “He said” is a liar who will go to any lengths to maintain his lie. He knows the LifeRing members and can spin it the way he wants.

    “She said” forces LifeRing to acknowledge some uncomfortable truths which create liability for those involved and a hole in the organization that has to be filled. It brings up that maybe it isn’t the miracle replacement for AA, and now we have to deal with a bunch of crap.

    Which of these two would you want to believe if you were a LifeRing administrator?
    Add to that the reposts of information which I assume was password protected by someone in the “She said “ camp, and, well, we are helping JD win his argument that this is a just a big misunderstanding, me culpa.

    Folks, I beg of you, let LifeRing work this out for themselves. It’s out of our control, and the more grousing there is and lifting of content, the more credibility we lose.

    He’s been blocked. Lesson learned. It’s their problem now.

    Or at least that’s my 2 cents for right now.

  444. AllyB says:

    @Lucy; “Add to that the reposts of information which I assume was password protected by someone in the “She said “ camp,”

    The stuff that was reposted here isn’t password protected. Anyone with a computer and an internet connection can read it. The links were provided in the reposts as they are completely publicly accessible.

  445. Lucy says:

    AllyB _ I think that LifeRing doesn’t see it that way. I think that continuing to do it makes us an easy target for JD’s spin.

  446. Jonny Quest says:

    I don’t really care anymore, to be honest. I’m fairly certain that Craig is quite aware of what is going on now.

    Margit was waiting for a response from Craig, according to her post, but Craig responded very quickly – in under two hours – after the PDF file of the thread was sent.

  447. Let’s not paste their comments over here. I realize that it’s a free internet and nothing’s private, but I’d feel less likely to comment in my online community if I knew my comments were immediately going to be pasted somewhere else to be scrutinized and preserved for all time. People over there have the ability to edit their posts, and even delete them, which they can’t do here. We’ve got no reason to make average members of the LR community feel scrutinized over here.

  448. causeandeffect says:

    Wow, just wow. I suppose they would prefer to have never known that JD/mondotuna was undermining them everywhere on the web and was admitting to trying to undermine the sobriety of their own members. Perhaps it would be better for them if they had never known. Wow. I was soooo feeling bad for them but I’m starting to lose sympathy with them as an organization (if this Rob is actually part to the organization itself) as they really seem to resent knowing the truth about the traitor in their ranks. What we have been saying is most certainly not hyperbole. They are only seeing the portion of JD’s abuse that is relevant to them. Just shoot the messenger, I guess. Seems to me that they were the ones who welcomed JD and allowed him to moderate, while we were hoping he’d eventually go away. So who is it really that deserves JD? Us or those who welcomed him with open arms? It’s only because of this site exposing JD, that they are able to oust him. Also, I don’t recall any post that called anyone at LR a loser (except for maybe JD). We’ve been expressing concern over what’s happened, but just shoot the messenger.

    Still, I do have sympathy for those in LifeRing who were harmed by JD and the other guy, (what was his name?) who it would appear was doing the equivalent of 13 stepping. I agree with SoberPJ that anyone who needs to vent can safely come here for support. This blog has helped make me stronger, so very much stronger, after the damage I was subjected to in AA.

  449. Jonny Quest says:

    I don’t think posts from LR members should be interpreted as authoritative, any more than they should interpret comments posted here by members as speaking on behalf of FTG/MA.

    The people who need to know have been made aware of this, and they acknowledged it.

    Unless they respond directly, we should probably interpret anything else as commentary.

  450. AnnaZed says:

    Nobody but JD has called the LifeRing participants losers. I don’t think they totally grok this interwebs thingumy.

  451. AnnaZed says:

    JQ, you have done nothing all day but post as if you were the voice of ST, so that’s rich.

  452. Jonny Quest says:

    @AnnaZed:

    I probably took old cabledude’s duplicity too seriously when I realize he had been following me across boards to amuse himself.

    mikeblamedenial is right about the disruptive nature of trolls – probably not worth it.

  453. causeandeffect says:

    Jonny, I don’t know Rob’s position in LR. He may just be a member, perhaps one of their stepper members,so I won’t judge the whole organization on just what he’s said. What I really, really, really can’t wrap my head around is the fact that their traitor was exposed by the admin of this site and yet they keep attacking US. It would just be common decency for them to offer some kind of thanks instead of attacks.

  454. MikeAugustine says:

    I think the unearthing of JD comes at a real bad time for LR, seeing that they have a shindig right around the corner. So it’s likely going to be a circle-the-wagons mentality for the short term. Long term, who knows? They are pretty small anyway and this is apt to shrink them further, or at least stunt their potential for growth. Good or bad, right or wrong? Who knows. I personally don’t care. I’m just glad JD has been exposed in a material way for what we know him to be.

    Maybe he can move to Bavaria now and spend his evenings in beer gardens and legalized brothels. Leb wohl, du krankes Arschloch. (-;

  455. Jonny Quest says:

    It is the nature of groups – particularly those who have a shared experience – in this case, recovery – to close rank, so to speak.

    I suspect they’ll come around once they sort through all this and the dust settles.

  456. AnnaZed says:

    I know Johnny, it’s a crazy thing. It’s a real shoot-the-messenger kind of reaction that we are getting. Let’s not forget that JD/Mondutuna/Cabledude (le Carré style) has been embedded in their organization for a long time. Add to that (with all due respect and categorically not calling them morons) the reality that they just don’t seem to be the most internet savvy crowd. Indeed, why should they have to be. The reality of a manipulative person with multiple log-ins and many conflicting personae is a hard thing to take in. I would have thought the recent post by ftg demonstrating his Cabledude persona actually talking about what in their terms they call relapse of fellow members (identifying one by his job) would have twigged their attention, but I think that they are getting lost in our 400+ comments. Nothing can be done about that. I imagine JD/Mondutuna/Cabledude will be right back up in their organization soon like a rat up a drain, le Carré style.

  457. AnnaZed says:

    Wow, never mind, I take that back. Someone over there named Rob caught that post.

    Sorry to be slow on the uptake, carry on.

  458. causeandeffect says:

    Yeah AZ, after saying f-em about us twice.

  459. AnnaZed says:

    Well, imagine the process. He must be gob-smacked.

  460. JR Harris says:

    Do you think this thread having 467 comments and many direct links to the manipulation that a rogue AA member can cause, will tend to hinder steppers from coming here and preaching AA Bill Wilson gospel? Be it in disguise or not.

  461. m2 on LR asks what this all has to do with us. A couple of things, m2:

    1. We have been over here recommending LR to people who found our site because they are looking for alternatives to AA. LR has been on our blogroll for 2 years. I never, ever would have had you listed on the front page of my blog as a “resource” if I thought that someone like JD were waiting over there to funnel them back into AA when they failed. People are here because people like JD gaslit them for years in AA. It makes me sick to think about it.

    2. The mission of this blog is to reveal the abuses in 12-Step culture. This qualifies as an enormous abuse and it’s our thing, if you will, to call abusive AAs out and shine a light on the impact these people have. Part of the reason we do that is that so many people have been abused — in the very ways that JD is adept at abusing people — that it’s empowering for people to see the behavior revealed and confronted — diffused.

    Our interest in this is not the same as LR’s interest, obviously. We don’t have a stake in what happens to your program or how you handle this, but we do have an interest.

    Also, we hope LR survives and thrives. Of course. And I hope that I can get LR back on the blogroll, not that that’s some kind of grand honor for you or anything, but still, it’d be nice.

  462. DeConstructor says:

    @FTG

    Damn right. You are doing a good thing here.

  463. causeandeffect says:

    What the LR people are quite understanding is that JD was planning to come out about this in the first place and laugh about it as per his comments on pg 1 of this thread

    JD says

    “Lucy et al, I’ve never lied in any post I’ve made. If you believe that’s so, you’re in error.

    As far as it being a private blog, it’s pretty accessible to the public, wouldn’t you agree?

    I planned a good laugh in Nov about ST referring people to the non-AA forum I help out with, but doing it this early was a decision I was not involved in, and I take offense with those who took it on themselves to violate my privacy to this degree. That’s not something you or I or I believe most people would do.

    I’m not sure yet exactly what I’m going to do about it, but it’s a principle of min to always give better than I get.”

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/05/29/jds-other-gig/comment-page-1/#comments

    Just one day prior he had, for the second time since he’s been posting here, promised/threatened to have something to laugh in November:

    “Cute stuff, eh? Later this year around the end of November I’ll point out something far funnier than the Coach and the hypocricy of ST’s reccomendation if I still feel the same about it as I do now. It’s like 10 times as funny, but for some good reasons I’ll be the only one laughing about it until then.”

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/keep-coming-back/comment-page-4/#comments

    So he was planning to expose this all along, his first threat being a few months ago. So criticize all you want, JD/mondotuna was going to burn you anyway.

    And if you’re wondering what ftg was referring to above when she said people we were gaslit by people in AA:

    http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2010/03/01/more-gaslighting/

  464. JR Harris says:

    Do you think we uncovered someone planning to taker down LR in November?

    Do you think we are helping in protecting them?

    Do you think they are shooting the messenger?

  465. JR Harris says:

    Ooops….. take not taker…..

  466. causeandeffect says:

    Michael, it’s because we know and respect the person your beloved JD was trying to humiliate. No fact finding is needed. We simply won’t drag that person’s name through the mud again, or any of the others he’s mocked as it would not be fair to them. That person also happens to be a very good friend of mine. Considering the huge body of evidence you’ve been presented with, you’re splitting some really irrelevant hairs. You can refuse to believe it if you wish.

  467. Jonny Quest says:

    If anything, I’m sure that this is giving JD lots and lots of F-U-N !

    *** FREE ENTERTAINMENT ***

    He’s probably sitting at his laptop, enjoying the show.

    He has people on here in disagreement over this, and he has people on LifeRing in disagreement over this.

    Two disruptions of “the opposition” for the price of one.

    Lots of FUN !

  468. AntiDenial says:

    I would lihave good alternativeske to see Life Ring learn from this. Take it seriously,and please dont handle it in the way AA/NA does by downplaying anything bad that happens on their watch.

    Man up so to speak and become stronger because of this incident. We want and need good secular options. People on ST are upset in part because many on the blog mention and suggest LR among other secular options-including the site itself.To think we might have unintentionally sent them to JD personally makes me sick and hope nobody died or committed suicide because of his destructive and sick mind.

  469. AntiDenial says:

    I would like to have good alternatives and to see Life Ring learn from this……….

  470. Jonny, I think this is exactly what you’d call a Pyrrhic victory.

  471. JR Harris says:

    I see very few new posts on the LR website today. I believe they know that there is a major problem because of this incident. There are more than enough posts and links to this thread. Google has already totally indexed both sites because of the traffic and I don’t think anyone needs to post over there anymore. The information we have compiled is more than sufficient for any reasonable person to make a decision. They had many followers, who need support now more than ever.

    As for mondotuna planning a big event in November, I can only surmise that he was planning to convert “prospects” to the Bill Wilson faith. The biggest way someone could do that in November is if they was planning on hijacking the Domain name in a coup and changing the Mission Statement of LR. If a long time moderator of the organization become extremely friendly with the person that registered the Domain Name this could happen. Since the organization is loosely knit they may not have realized this, but it is and has been done to organizations that are much larger.

    Domain ID:D612624-LROR
    Domain Name:LIFERING.ORG
    Expiration Date:05-Nov-2012 05:00:00 UTC <————- Look Here
    Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)

  472. mikeblamedenial says:

    I’m with Jonny. Team Troll won this one straight down the line.

  473. causeandeffect says:

    JR that expires in 2012. It must be something else. Maybe it will make sense to the LR members.

  474. mikeblamedenial says:

    Or just maybe, it is more smoke.

  475. mikeblamedenial says:

    I’m with Lucy. LifeRing management wants this board’s help about as much as AAWSGSO in New York wants it. 500 posts into it, we are probably coming off as a bit obsessive.

  476. JR Harris says:

    You have to pay a YEARLY very nominal fee to maintain the registration which would be in 2011 or it lapses. Google it to see what happens if you lapse in paying your yearly fee, the name can also be sold by the registrar if I am not mistaken.

  477. I think we should go for an even 500, then lock it down with a montage of JD’s greatest hits, set to All By Myself.

    http://www.jango.com/guests/593fc94bcea0e87ad24fb6bffbb778a1?l=0

  478. Or Afternoon Delight, maybe?

  479. JR Harris says:

    I’m comment 487. Who will be comment 500?

  480. mikeblamedenial says:

    “Sympathy For The Devil”, perhaps.

  481. And we could put in all my favorite pix of JD:

    Oh, and how about this:

  482. Doreen says:

    Have the earliest comments totally disappeared from this post?

  483. mikeblamedenial says:

    Doreen, unless something is weird with your browser, there should be red page numbers from 1-10 right below the post you are reading right now. Failing that, at the end of the original story, there should be a red icon saying 491 posts, which should bring them all up when you click it.

  484. Primrose says:

    @ Doreen; the earliest comments are all there. The only one that was removed (afaik) was my post of his profile on LR, which contained a photograph, which I asked to be removed. I think all of the other posts over 10 pages are still there. Unlike ‘Mollys’.

    If any one from LifeRing is reading this, there is a list of ‘recovery resources’ on the right of this page.

    Leaving this now to avoid going over the 500. My favourite comment was from Disclosure, ‘Muckraking Extraordinaire’.

  485. SoberPJ says:

    I think congratulations are in order for this entire blog, mainly the owners, but also to those who participated with their comments and opinions to keep the thing alive until it got the attention it deserves. Think of all the people that won’t be negatively affected in the future by a nasty, demeaning, manipulative and psycho stepper. That’s a high-five moment right there. Life Ring will be able to get back to aligning with their original charter in their online venue and I predict that venue will be even more successful in the future. Which means this event is a turning point in their ability to help more people and become more focused on who they really want to be. I can understand how some Life Ring members may be upset by us pointing out the wolf in their midst, but the more moderate, considerate and adult members see this for what it really is – another online community helping them to create a better environment for their members. That is the end result, so that is what we helped them do. Maybe the approach isn’t palatable to everyone, but, per the evidence in the outcome, it was effective.

    To those on Life Ring that thought this blog provided you with a free and effective service, for my small part in it, you are welcome and best of luck in the future. I hope you end up helping millions of people find sobriety and a better life through secular and non-AA means.

  486. xyz says:

    Thank you SoberPJ
    And thank you ST.

    Keep an eye on him for us.

    A LifeRinger

  487. flannigan says:

    I think JD’s value as a glimpse into the mind (or lack thereof) of a true-believing 12 stepper far outweighs any harm he may have done. If anyone had doubts as to the nature and motivations of the 12 step industry, JD’s behaviour has put them to rest. JD turned out to be the most effective muckraker of them all, even if he was never aware of it.

  488. Lucy says:

    I think JD’s value is to show that wherever there are vulnerable people there are predators.

  489. MA says:

    I’m going to go ahead and close the comments here so we can allow the good folks at Lifering forum get past this distraction, and on with their real purpose of helping one another. This horse has been beaten to death.