AAs Come Out of Their Troll Holes

ST reader J.G. just sent me this infuriating, yet revealing, little post on PopEater. I am seriously dying of a cold right now so I can’t compose a coherent thought. I’m just going to leave it up to everyone else to debunk. Also, I know some of you all are sick of hearing about Charlie Sheen, but this article not about him as much as it’s about the response from the status quo to their worst nightmare: having that 5% figure hit the mainstream. If I could sum up the argument, it would go like this, “The truth is irrelevant. We’ve been lying for so long that people will die if they find out.”

I can’t find a good quote to pull, since it’s so short and packed with lunacy, so go read the whole thing and report back.

Charlie Sheen’s Anti-AA Comments Dangerous for Addicts

If these assholes were truly concerned about people’s lives, they wouldn’t be drawing a bright line under statements that make Sheen sound like he’s gone around the bend. Clearly, they’re trying to discredit the 5% by placing it in the context of some really nutty assertions. But, if they genuinely believe that Sheen is mentally ill, they why are they not, instead, focusing on how irresponsible it would be to send someone to AA whose problems clearly fall outside AA’s scope?

  • “Dr. Harris Stratyner, Ph.D., an addiction psychologist with Caron Treatment Centers.” is the one saying that Charlie is hurting other addicts with his Anti-AA statements. He is also:

    1.) Regional Vice President for Caron Treatment Centers’ New York Recovery Center
    2.) developed the technique “Carefrontation,”
    3.) Wrote a book the book”PDR Drug Guide to Pediatric and Adolescent Mental Health Professionals”
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/bloggers/harris-b-stratyner-phd-casac

    “Caron Counseling Services (CCS) is Caron’s outpatient treatment center located in Wyomissing, Pennsylvania. CCS provides a variety of evaluation, diagnostic, treatment and intervention services for adults, young adults, adolescents and families.
    http://www.caron.org/outpatient-services-6856.html

    Caron Counseling only uses the 12 Step Treatment and incourages you to become a contact to spread the word:
    http://www.caron.org/become-a-12step-recovery-contact.html

    So let me see … he specializes in child and young adult addiction problems…. runs a program completely based on the 12 Steps of AA……

    How old is Charlie Sheen? What makes him qualifies to diagnose him?

    Have fun !!!!

  • AndyM

    Well he’s laid down the gauntlet, hasn’t he. He’s declared his own personal recovery method in no uncertain terms. He’s already an honorary member of Shitkickers Unanimous whether he knows it or not.

  • Gunthar2000

    I’m so pissed off… I tried to comment, but it locked up on me and now it won’t allow me to post the rest.

  • DeConstructor

    August 06, 1945 Hiroshima Japan.

    The recovery world is going to be forever changed from this.

  • AndyM

  • AndyM

  • Nukefreekiwi

    @deconstructor ‘The recovery world is going to be forever changed from this.’

    I wish this were true. If history tells us anything, Sheen will relapse and give further credence to the 12 step fallacy and normal business will resume as usual once it all blows over. I hope i am wrong but i have serious doubts about Charlie Sheen being the long term, Anti 12 step advocate we have all been hoping for.

    With regards to the AA drivel in the article and the army of 12 step mullahs signing up to condemn Charlie and his DIY recovery. Wow! in spite of numerous encounters with their ilk i am still shocked by their blind obedience and promotion of a fallacious program. I think its spooky.

  • DeConstructor

    @NFkiwi-

    Perhaps I am a little too hopeful about this-
    However, with that being said, there are some very distinct differences in this, than in similar circumstances in the past.

    Society expects the same drill. They expect their PT Barnum (dr Phil) to ride in, take Charlie into treatment, and charlie to come out in 6 weeks and proclaim for the faith.

    This time may be different. Never in history has there been SO much anti AA information available to so many people. It will be impossible for them to keepp this under wraps.

    This stack of lies is sooo deep, that once people read this on their own- AA’s reputation will be forever tarnished. I personally, was in the rooms for a long time, and through traditional ‘treatment’ before I had heard of ANYTHING anti AA or even alternative to AA.

    In a few years I went from a person fighting a daily ‘disease’ to a person who no longer has any real desire to drink. Along the way I acquired one hell of an attitude towards those persons who continue to promote such damaging information marketed as medical fact.

    What will change this thing 180 degrees is if another major celeb will step up to the plate and publicly acknowledge Charlie is right.

  • sleeperhatch91

    This is truly a lynchpin moment for us. It is such a shame it has to come from a figure who is already so discredited by his other statements.

  • AndyM

    I think if he gets into trouble it’s more likely that it’s because he needs medical treatment, but he doesn’t need to hear a public sermon about it from dipshits like “Doctor” Drew. I made my own feelings known in the comments on the following:

  • AndyM

  • AndyM

    Anybody who believes in that sort of thing say a prayer for him. If you don’t, just wish him all the best.

  • AndyM

    Well fancy that. They’ve blocked the youtube diagnosis of “Dr” Drew (here at least). That’s what I was referring to.

  • Acacia H

    I did’nt know they’d blocked it. I’ve just posted a comment next to yours on there.

  • DeConstructor

    Dr. Drew should have his license yanked PERMANENTLY for that clip.

    Either he is diagnosing from afar, and authoritatively recommending that Charlie be locked up in a looney bin (which should scare the hell out of anyone living in the free world)
    Or- if he has in anyway met or counseled Charlie, he is committing untold HIPAA confidentiality violations.

    Charlie should sue the hell out him too.

  • DeConstructor

    The ‘worst nightmare’ scenario of the 5% thing being publicized has just been acknowledged.

  • DeConstructor

  • AndyM

    Acacia
    My mistake, perhaps. It cameup blocke a couple of times. these things happen.

  • AndyM

    Know who I think’s really heading for a fall? “Doctor” Drew.

  • Acacia H

    Cool, Andy.
    Is Dr Drew even a real Doctor?

  • AndyM

    Dunno. But I’ll ask Uncle Izzy:

  • AndyM

  • Nukefreekiwi

    Shit Drew, if i lost my $2 million per episode gravy train i might appear a little mainic too. Shheeesh, what a tosser.

  • Gunthar2000

    http://www.popeater.com/2011/02/28/charlie-sheens-alcoholics-anonymous/
    http://omg.yahoo.com/news/charlie-sheen-rants-against-alcoholics-anonymous-cult/57248
    http://www.examiner.com/cults-in-national/charlie-sheen-calls-alcoholics-anonymous-bootleg-cult-rant-is-he-right-v
    http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/news/article_1621918.php/Charlie-Sheen-Alcoholics-Anonymous-is-a-cult
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1360441/Charlie-Sheen-slams-Alcoholics-Anonymous-radio-rant-Cult-followed-stupid-people.html
    http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=63&f=1554&t=7247899
    http://www.businessinsider.com/charlie-sheen-cbs-nazis-radio-phone-2011-2
    http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/articles/2011/02/25/20110225charlie-sheen-aa-radio-cult-followed-by-stupid-people.html
    http://radiantgod.blogspot.com/2011/02/charlie-sheen-calls-alcoholics.html
    http://www.tmz.com/2011/02/25/dr-drew-charlie-sheen-aa-alcoholics-anonymous-video-celebrity-rehab/13/
    http://www.gossipcop.com/charlie-sheen-vatican-assassin-thomas-jefferson-chuck-lorre-trolls-radio-rant/
    http://entertainment.ca.msn.com/celebs/article.aspx?cp-documentid=27802577
    http://tv.blogs.pressdemocrat.com/16145/charlie-sheen-rants-cbs-cracks-down/
    http://tvovermind.zap2it.com/cbs/two-and-a-half-men/charlie-sheen-rants-cbs-shuts-down-two-and-a-half-men/49556
    http://www.thesuperficial.com/charlie-sheen-i-just-cured-alcoholism-right-now-with-my-mind-02-2011
    http://foreign.peacefmonline.com/entertainment/201102/138549.php
    http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/41765705/ns/today-entertainment/
    http://www.allheadlinenews.com/briefs/articles/90036371?Charlie%20Sheen%20blasts%20Alcoholic%20Anonymous%20on%20radio%20show%3B%20Dr.%20Drew%20Pinsky%20agrees
    http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/02/charlie-sheens-bizarre-new-interview-slams-alcoholic-anonymous-says-his-rate

  • Piers Morgan tweeted straight away something along the lines of ‘Am I alone in thinking he can do what he likes in his own time?’.

  • hulahoop

    What Charlie has done is to bring the discussion to the table. There are a lot of people who will disregard what he has to say because it is, afterall, Charlie Sheen. There are a lot of others who will hear what is he saying though. There are millions of people who haven’t been helped by the twelve step method. There are people who are having doubts and what he says will resonate with them. Charlie definitely knows AA and rehab. I can tell by what he is saying.

    I do hope another person in the limelight will speak out. It would lend credibility to what Charlie is saying.

  • AntiDenial

    I watched the Pierce Morgan interview. I thought Pierce was trying to navigate away from Charlie talking about AA.That was irritating. Even though Charlie talked about the treatment in AA I dont remember him ever saying the word AA. Any comments?

  • Rick045

    Stanton Peele’s most recent blog post about Charlie.

    http://www.peele.net/blog/index.html#110227a

  • @ Sleeperhatch. Ask Gunther when you can co-host the radio show.

  • if

  • Lucy

    Andy M – You said it all. Charlie needs medical and psychiatric treatment, not bullshit rehab or a temperance lecture.

    Reading that article was like being in an AA meeting. Harris was telling everyone how dangerous Charlie was to addicts, and the little ticker tape running under him was translating it for me – “I make my money from rehab and 12 step nonsense. If people listen to this loonie and hear a grain of truth, my business might be in trouble. Quick! Must over react immediately.”

  • JD

    Interesting that Stanton neglects the 10yrs CS was doing AA before returning to drinking, making a point to say that he said to someone who wasn’t interested enough to broadcast it that in Charlie’s case ‘AA isn’t very effective.’

    How long must something work for Stanton to call it ‘somewhat effective’?

    What I see in Charlie is a guy who’s a bad drunk, gets sober for some time and becomes productive as usually happens, then can’t get over the 11 yr hump that often trips people up, goes back on the sauce and for the last 8 months has trashed his life again while drinking. Nothing unusual here.

    People here have missed the parallels between CS and the redneck killer on the other thread. The guy was a horrible screwup, got sober a while and impressed people with getting along fine, started drinking again after many years and reverted quickly back to Mr Hyde.

    Charlie and the redneck were doing great in AA, when back drinking Charlie and the redneck don’t do so well.

    The contrast between a sober alcholic and a drinking drunk are stark, like two completely different people. See it all the time with the losers that drag themselves in and get better. The ones who figure they can drink again, like Charlie return to who they were, or worse.

    CS is none of my business, things will play out there as they will. Would be a positive if he doesn’t hurt anyone beyond his family, but if he does it’s on him. Guys who get a little time (10yrs is something, Stanton) often figure they know something though the facts indicate they don’t know much about what not to do, and few can get their egos down enough to admit they screwed up royally and begin again.

    I doubt if CS will ever see 3yrs sober again, let alone 10 unless he’s heavily medicated to bear reality well enough to muddle along in a drug haze without a drink, a victim of circumstance forever.

    Too bad for him. Guys like CS are walking visual aids for those who know what they mean and are paying attention. Not uncommon, plenty around.

  • sugomom

    Ten years in any program should be sufficient time to have learned the skills to function on your own. That’s the problem with AA, it doesn’t teach you skills to be independent. It teaches you that your health and well being depends on your dependence on the group. What you’re saying JD is, for example, a Doctor cannot practice medicine unless he still attends medical school. Makes no sense.

  • Lucy

    JD _ What evidence do you have that CS was sober for 10 years in AA? Wouldn’t his being sober and still sleeping with hookers, having rages and erratic thinking, and his recent mania be more indicative of bipolar disorder than alcoholism? If so, can you see that you just proved that AA didn’t help him?

  • sugomom

    Lucy, I’m no shrink, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see mania!

  • joedrywall

    I wonder if any other celebrity “X steppers” have tried to contact Sheen?

  • sugomom

    On his morning show rants he listed quite a few friends that have called in support, as well as contract opportunities he has on the table from yet another list of supporters. If you crossreference this list with JRH’s list you may find who the sane X steppers are.

  • Martha

    I doubt that many celebrities want to be associated with Sheen right now and I can hardly blame them. The only positive thing about the whole mess called Charlie Sheen is that the 5% success rate is now more widely known. Coincidentally there is less than 5% benefit to our efforts in associating ST with Sheen.

    Orange summed it up best in this recent response to a letter about Sheen:

    “Charlie may have a point, but he is the WORST person in the world to say that.

    John M

    As always, withhold the full name if you would.

    Hello again, John,

    Yes, isn’t this whole Charlie Sheen circus just such a classic example of getting agreement from people you don’t want to be associated with?

    It reminds me of the scene in the movie “Close Encounters of the Third Kind” where the protagonist was trying to describe his experience with a UFO to Air Force authorities, and he was getting interrupted by a loud-mouthed raving nutcase who wouldn’t stop talking about alien abductions and Bigfoot, and on and on…

    Oh well, have a good day anyway.

    == Orange”

  • Martha: “Coincidentally there is less than 5% benefit to our efforts in associating ST with Sheen.”

    Speaking for myself and MA, there has been absolutely zero inclination, let alone effort, to try to associate Stinkin’ Thinkin’ with Charlie Sheen. I suspect that the immediacy of the internet gives the illusion that things are closer than they really are — and so maybe it seems to people like a real possibility that there could be some association. I don’t know. But it seems odd to me that anyone’s actually worried about it.

    We have position here that’s suddenly getting a lot of exposure in the media. We are going to talk about it. It’s going to be interesting to people here. People are excited to see the 5% number actually spoken in the mainstream, to see AA raked over the coals. And Sheen is making a spectacle of himself, which is interesting to some people here, too. There is just no way that we’re not going to talk about this here. How this translates into some kind of a relationship with this man is beyond me.

    So, let me be clear: Stinkin’ Thinkin’ is not negotiating an endorsement deal with Charlie Sheen. We’re just talking about something that’s getting media attention and is quite relevant to the topic of the blog.

  • Martha

    I don’t advocate not talking about it at all. Maybe I watch too much TV and it seems like 24/7 Charlie since last Friday. Just don’t change the name of this blog to Twelve and a half steps. : )

  • AntiDenial

    I cant gey enough of Charlie Sheen info. He is the highest paid actor in the world-HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!! This is huge-and he is dead on what he is saying about AA.
    I want to support him-if even indirectly through this site. This is one of the largest anti 12 step site out there. I would be interested in asking FTG if the site is recieving more “Hits” since this CS story popped up?

  • Yep. 🙂

  • Martha

    FTG, is there any way to find out whether or not the new hits on ST come from a Google search or from us posting links to ST on other websites? I am interested in having some figures about the traffic. Maybe a webalizer like the one on the OPs.

  • speedy0314

    @ ftg:

    “So, let me be clear: Stinkin’ Thinkin’ is not negotiating an endorsement deal with Charlie Sheen.”

    glad you clarified that. because if anything gets between you, chaiM A-vine & me concerning the contract talks for resident blog over-paid looney then i’m going on a full-out love/hate warlock media blitz.

    two & a half degrees of polarity,

    speedy

  • Gunthar2000

    Charlie Sheen will appear on a special one hour edition of 20/20 tonight.
    In some areas the show will air at 9PM… In some it will be 10PM.

    http://www.thebostonchannel.com/entertainment/27010950/detail.html

  • tintop

    “People here have missed the parallels between CS and the redneck killer on the other thread. ”

    bull shit foster

  • tintop

    “How long must something work for Stanton to call it ‘somewhat effective’?”

    wrong place to ask that question, foster.
    Ask him yourself — if you have the guts which you do not

  • JD

    Lucy if as you say, CS is a Beeper and not an alkie…then of course AA would fail him. AA contains no solution for that problem, and if you heard differently don’t believe it.

    Don’t send us Lepers, Cancer patients or nail biters who are not alcoholic, because AA will fail them too.

    The alkies who want to do a few things to stay sober can plug into our solution any time for as long as they care to. And if at some point they want to go back to what they had, thinking they’re all better now after being sober x weeks or years and can handle a little beverage alcohol, they always have the option to do that, like Charlieboy here.

    The idea you see here and other places, that AAs care if someone wants to go drink and are going to chase them around and badger them to come back and get sober again is false. People who want to drink might get a phone call to see what’s up, but if they want to drink we just forget about them.

    So many flakes don’t want to take our steps and get drunk again, we’d be doing nothing else if we were chasing them around. Members just want to do what it takes to stay sober ourselves and care less if others don’t. So few do the stuff we’d be in constant turmoil over an almost infinite number of drunks if we cared about them getting drunk again. Nice to observe the changes when the few desperate ones actually do the stuff, though.

  • tintop

    “CS is none of my business,”

    That is the only thing that you wrote in that asinine post that approaches intelligent.
    Sheen is, most certainly none of you business, foster. I am glad you admit it.
    You know that means that you should have kept quiet.

  • tintop

    Foster, bullshit.

  • Gunthar2000

    That’s classic JD…

    So you’re saying that only desperate “real alcoholics” actually work the 12 steps, and that anyone who doesn’t work the steps is either in denial, or was never a “real alcoholic” to begin with?

    If I’m reading this correctly, you’re also saying that AA doesn’t give a shit about anyone who won’t submit to the program… Did I get that right?

  • tintop

    Gunthar — you did get it right.

  • speedy0314

    @ ftg again:

    are you in negotiations with JD for resident blog insufferable a**hole? if you are, i want a piece of that action as well.

    doing nothing [else],

    speedy

  • Sugomom

    TinTop, JD failed to address my comments regarding skills that should/could be taught in a program, rather than the dependency on AA. He did, however, in every single word of his response to Lucy, point out that he is incredibly selfish and the program really doesn’t give a care about the people in it. Here’s the deal, in real life, in the workplace, a family, a bunko club, if most people saw signs of a mental disorder they might compassionately direct the person to seek help of a different nature, not be told that coming back to Bunko was the answer to their problem.
    I for one am tired of Alcoholism being compared to cancer. For two, I am tired of JD.

  • Martha

    I love the “real alcoholic” line, but I guess when AA fails for 95% of those who try it you will grasp at straws. 12 steps = epic failure.

  • tintop

    sugomom, foster is a coward and a fool and a liar.

    as speedy asked, is foster being auditioned for the role of official/resident/a**hole?
    If he is I nominate “mr Bill”. Mr Bill is much more intelligent.

  • @Speedy, He has been negotiating for the position of Sanctimonious Hall Monitor, but we couldn’t meet his demand for alum suppositories. Let’s talk.

  • Well it is obvious that the 5% success rate (or retention rate, what ever you want to call it) did not work for Charlie Sheen. Given that if you ever leave AA you are destined to jails, institutions, or death means that if you join AA there is a 19 out of 20 chance that you will end up in a deplorable situation.

    That means that when you go to a meeting, 19 out of 20 people in the rooms are members of the “Walking Dead”, “Jailhouse Blues”, or “Loonie Bin”. Why are they smiling? Could it be that AA is becoming the new “Opiate of the Masses” that has been touted throughout history?

    It should also be noted that the “Opiate of the Masses” in history is always linked to religious indoctrination. Something that AA vehemently denies. If it walks, talks and acts like ………

    I think I’d rather join the chess club instead, my chances are better.

  • Gunthar2000

    @Martha…

    But according to AA literature “Only you can decide whether you want to give A.A.a try —
    whether you think it can help you.”
    Then they go on to describe how it was AA members who convinced them that they were sick, “Then we heard from other A.A. members that we were sick.”

    Then they go on to ask a series of leading questions that are obviously designed to bring about certain thoughts and emotions.

    http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=71

    It really looks to me like AA tries to convince anyone who has ever had a problem with alcohol that AA is right for them, but according to JD’s testimony, AA is just casting as wide a net as possible, and AA members don’t really give a shit about the 95% who’ve been recklessly recruited and left to die in the dust of “real alcoholics” like JD.

    And here were only looking at a small slice of AA literature.
    AA literature also suggests that any AA member who doesn’t work the steps almost certainly signs his own death warrant. Maybe AA was just talking about those “real” AA members and not the 95% of fake alcoholics that AA shamelessly recruits and later abandons.

    An old AA slogan says, “Some of us must die so that the rest of us may live.”

    It’s all so confusing.

    Maybe JD can clarify AA’s position for us.

  • Hey Martha, I do have stats… I have google analytics and there’s a whole pile of stats on the webhost’s control panel. And what drives me crazy is that the two don’t jibe. Maybe ST tech support can analyze the stats and give you an answer.

  • GK2 ‘Some must die..’ that is the only bit of the cult that makes sense. They need the deaths to scare people into staying.

  • Mike

    Real alcoholic, heh. My experience is that the need to be one in order to fit in with the group has led to more lies at the podium than all other factors combined.

  • Lucy

    JD – You again hit the nail on the head.

    AA claims to be the go to treatment for alcoholism. To that end, it sponsors outreach programs in jails, schools, courts and hospitals to educate the public on how to deal with the alcoholic.

    In AA, the word “alcoholic” means a “person who cannot stay away from the first drink because he has a mental defect” and “when he takes the drink, it sets off a compulsion to drink more.” The alcohol is but a symptom of his problem.

    To treat “alcoholism,” AA prescribes soul-surgery using the tools of the steps, service work and fellowship. The result of the soul surgery is a spiritual awakening which takes away, at least a day at a time, the desire to drink.

    Well, guess what, JD? Alcohol can be a symptom of bipolar disorder too. In fact, alcohol can be a symptom of ANY kind of self-medication.

    And since AA has now told the world (and as you yourself pointed out, placed AA members in various places of authority) how to diagnose and treat “alcoholism,” the first choice of courts, families, doctors, jails, etc. in treating drinking is to send the drinker to AA.

    But soul-surgery doesn’t treat brain chemistry, depression over childhood molestation, dementia, grief or any of the thousands of reasons that people self-medicate. In fact, it tends, as is evidenced by Charlie, my husband, any of the six bipolars I sponsored, or my dead mother, to make them worse.

    And whose fault is that? The mentally ill person stuck in AA by a therapist, a family member, the courts, the jails, etc. in response to AA’s recruiting efforts. or AA itself?

    Drinking is a habit, not a disease. It is a sign that something isn’t right, and it can only be suspended by soul-surgery. Suspension just makes the problem worse until it explodes in a fit of crazy or suicide like we are seeing with Charlie.

  • AndyM

    When you discount all the “flakes”, “losers” and “lunatics” in aa are there any members left to call “real alcoholics”. That, I would suggest, is the $64, OOO question. See you later. It’s my medication time and I’m off to my local for a swift pint of Guiness. Bye for now:)

  • joedrywall

    5% thing will continue to be beaten to death. Thats all AA ever really had. I am pretty sure Wilson was quoted as saying as much also.
    The 75% success rate that is claimed in the second edition of the big book is of those who really tried. By really trying I think they meant that members needed to : work the steps, read the book, get a sponsor, go to meetings, and carry the message. Oh yeah and to have attended at least 10 meetings.
    By not doing one of the things mentioned on the list you could “weed out” people from the program pretty quickly. (maybe that is a good thing).

  • Gunthar2000

    Oh yeah Mike… AA rewrites your history if ya stick around long enough. Members are rewarded with applause and fellowship for regurgitating the hopeless helpless bit.

    If you don’t spout slogans and tell everyone how miserable and sick you are one minute, and how happy joyous and free you are because of AA the next the group will turn on you, just like JD is doing here. I honestly believe they would rather see you die that say you were able to recover in any other way.

    Just look at the latest Dr. Drew business with Charlie Sheen… Dr. Drew has suddenly made it his business to discredit Charlie Sheen in any way he can, including diagnosing Sheen in the media and suggesting that he should be locked up. Why??? Because Charlie Sheen has rejected AA and is claiming he’s able to stay sober without AA.

    AA members like the world to assume that when they say something it must be true. So Dr. Drew and a million other AA shills are out there suggesting that Charlie is in danger because he’s a classic case of denial… and why??? Because Charlie doesn’t like AA.

    Drew will continue to use the media as a bully pulpit to beat Sheen down in any way he can… and if Drew sayeth… it must be so.

    The public doesn’t realize that they’re being subjected to a self perpetuating con-game that has been going on for over 70 years.

    Thank God someone has the balls to stand up to these creeps.

  • tintop

    Pinsky really has no option other than try to discredit CS. CS has rejected AA and Pinsky cannot let that pass.

  • Lucy

    Gunthar – I actually was on Dr. Drew’s side for the first minute of his interview. I was glad to see someone talking about the mania as mania, an involuntary state rather than the voluntary act of using.

    But when he started yapping about what Charlie ought to do, he lost me. Charlie isn’t his patient.

    It’s one thing for the people on a blog board to talk about what Charlie ought to do, and quite another for a mental health professional to talk about it with TMZ. It just sets Charlie up again, like the forced AA attendance did.

  • Gunthar2000

    Lucy… The way I see it, early sobriety is usually a bumpy road. I was frickin crazy as hell for probably the first year or two. It took a long time for my brain to settle down.

    Today I can look back and see that not every thought I had was delusional at that point in my life.. I was actually making some pretty sound and rational decisions, leaving AA was one of them.

    What amazes me is the suggestion that because someone suffers from mental illness they are incapable of making any decisions for themselves, and they need these fruitcakes to run their lives.

  • Joey, George Valiant, the pro-aa doctor described the 5% figure as appalling.

  • Alex007

    Hi i just came by to vent. You know the church i talked about before Northland well I called there counseling center to help with some recent loss issues I am going through. Well when I told her a little about my background and she found out I used to drink. (even though its not a problem now) She said to get into our counseling I had to go to Celebrate Recovery. I told her what i though with AA 12 step that I felt it is a shame-based deal and CR was just putting Jesus in front of an already false relgion. So screw it I am not going to be force into any 12 step anything. I will just figure something else out.

  • JD

    If someone pushed your ‘real alcoholic’ button today G, don’t confuse them with me.

    No one stands at the door and blocks people. People who are or are not alcoholic often come in and leave shortly. The list of reasons is long for that and you can probably self-generate some.

    So our ‘care quotient’ is insufficient in your estimation? That shows some serious ignorance of the realities in AA. The things we do for certain newcomers would astound you.

    The guideline is we care as much or as little as the new person does. They want to do a few things, we do a lot to help. If they want to scowl from the back row and just get a card signed, that’s cool. Most flake off and are forgotten. We pay attention to those in front of us who are making some kind of effort and don’t fret those who prefer to go drink or seek help elsewhere, because (here’s where to listen closely) we’ve found it a waste of our time.

    I’ve yet to meet anyone who was nastier about AA or to AAs than I was new, including the crowd here, which falls far short of the level I could be disagreeable at the end of my drinking. Despite my words, attitude, threats, and actions the sober people made a spot for me and gave me their time and help because I wanted to learn from them how I could live without drinking again. My distain, prejudice and ignorance was irrelevant.

    Those who haven’t died sober are still continuously sober almost 3 decades later. Their path was very worthwhile for me to take.

    Do I think of the many thousands I’ve spoken to in AA since who had a plan b they wanted to go try, and mourn them? Not at all, it’s their call and none of my business or concern. The ones who did the stuff are sober and still involved, or have died sober. I do think about them.

    Your comments show stereotyping and fantasy. Reality is we stay up all night watching drunk idiots puke and shake it out and then go to work the next day, maybe down the road some months we buy christmas for their kids, or loan them money for an old car that they never ever pay back, or set them up in business, or move their funiture, or help them build additions to their houses, or help them get a job, or give them furniture, or drive them around free for years, or take them with us on trips, or visit them in hospitals, or sell them a home cheap, or blow afternoons in court with them…an endless variety of actions, not the cheap and easy sentiment you see as missing.

  • Gunthar2000

    @JD…

    By what standard do you measure how much a new AA member cares?

  • tintop

    “So our ‘care quotient’ is insufficient in your estimation? ”

    yes it is, foster.

    you have no care quotient. and you know that you do not

  • tintop

    “My distain, prejudice and ignorance was irrelevant.”

    They remain irrelevant, foster. deal with it

  • tintop

    “Not at all, it’s their call and none of my business or concern. ”

    keep that in mind.
    It is none of your business, foster

  • Gunthar2000

    JD… I must have missed this AA gravy train that you are describing… Is it too late to get on board. I mean, if you’re going to buy me a car and a house and all of the things you’ve just described, maybe it’s worth it to play along.

    The fact is though… You don’t really do those things… You AA nut jobs call that kind of stuff enabling.

    Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.

  • tintop

    “Your comments show stereotyping and fantasy.”

    bullshit foster.
    prove it

  • tintop

    gunthar, you did miss the ‘aa gravy train” AA has no ‘gravy train’

    foster is just talking trash for the attention that he gets

  • Thumb66

    I dont belong to a cult that tells me i have disease that tells me I dont have a disease and that if I want what they have I should listen to what say and follow good orderly direction somehow and then wait for a miracle to happen and read the promises on 83-84 and that somehow even if I feel good about myself that I am being dishonest and someway somehow that has never been explained I will become a drydrunk who is not happy and will make poor choices and eventually get drunk…just sayin.

    http://lydiacharlotte.wordpress.com/2009/04/19/meeting-makers-make-it/

  • flannigan

    @Primrose
    Actually Dr. Vailliant described 3% death rate as appalling in his study as related in “The Natural History of Alcoholism”.

  • It is amazing how AA has set themselves up to have everyone fight for them, and then stay out of it to protect the program. They can stand back and enjoy the antics and let other people fight for them. They do this through the 12 Traditions, specifically number 10:

    10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

    Any AA buffs out there know when the 12 Traditions was added?

  • Thinking Guy

    I am going to just come out and say what everyone is tap dancing around but hasn’t said. AA is just a veiled attempt at religous indoctrination. Folks, it is real simple. These people, along with the Christ-ies and other religous wackos actually believe that the Great Pumpkin Santa Jesus that lives in the clouds is real and can help them. I am tired of the bullshit and just can’t take it any more. Higher power my ass. There is no higher power. Grow up and stop hoping that the magic Daddy Deity loves you and will help you. That is why AA is bullshit. It is based on a myth that just isn’t real. Not a good basis for curing a so called disease. I work at a hospital. I wonder what all these nuts would think if, right before their surgeon was about to start cutting, he squinted real hard and mumbled some higher power nonsense. Let’s call this what it is. Whew, I feel better.

  • Martha

    Which one is crazier? Chuck Lorre responds to CS

    “I understand that I’m under a lot of pressure to respond to certain statements made about me recently. The following are my uncensored thoughts. I hope this will put an end to any further speculation. I believe that consciousness creates the illusion of individuation, the false feeling of being separate. In other words, I am aware, ergo I am alone. I further believe that this existential misunderstanding is the prime motivating force for the neurotic compulsion to blot out consciousness. This explains the paradox of our culture, which celebrates the ego while simultaneously promoting its evisceration with drugs and alcohol. It also clarifies our deep-seated fear of monolithic, one-minded systems like communism, religious fundamentalism, zombies and invaders from Mars. Each one is a dark echo of an oceanic state of unifying transcendence from which consciousness must, by nature, flee. The Fall from Grace is, in fact, a Sprint from Grace. Or perhaps more accurately, “Screw Grace, I am so outta here!” Questions?”

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/blogs/live-feed/chuck-lorre-addresses-charlie-sheen-162692

  • Alex007 Good for you. Keep away from anyone with ideas that a shame based religion will not harm you.
    Thanks, Flannigan.

  • DeConstructor

    @Martha-

    Once again, I do not want what this individual has.

    Perhaps an illusion to portray superior intelligenge, I read Chuck Lorre’s comments as a mangled bunch of goobly gook, and more incoherant than had he drank a fifth of tequila.

    I desparately hope that Charlie will keep to his word, and will not give the AA faith another excuse to transfer their failings as Charlie’s fault.

    Hang in there Charlie, many people want to see you successfully expose this madness, and do it with credibility.

  • tintop

    I would not be at all surprised if CS turns out to be fine. That is something people the likes of Lorre or Pinsky would have a real problem accepting.

  • Martha

    The last thing that AA wants is for Charlie Sheen to remain abstinent (sober). If he does stay clean and sober on his own they use the old dry drunk line or say that he is lying. I would not put it past some stepper to plant drugs on him and then try to have a judge order him to 12 step treatment center. He is in California where the 9th Circuit Court’s decision has jurisdiction with their ruling that AA is religious. BTW I posted some comments on the Hollywood Reporter article about this along with a link here.

  • Lucy

    JD _ I would be one of those AA members with nearly three decades of sobriety for them.
    Why is is that I am never included in the Gods and Goddesses of AA that you quote? I have the same amount of sobriety and I have done the same amount of service work. I never call you names or say hateful things to you.

    Gunthar, I live with bipolar disorder and I totally agree with you. Just because CS is manic does not mean he isn’t right. In fact, it’s proof that AA doesn’t treat drinking problems for people who are mentally ill. And how would someone know whether he has a mental illness or not when he goes to AA? As you said, the newcomer is jittery and vulnerable.

  • Sugomom

    At least CS came out with some truth. Recently, Daniel Baldwin said to lay off Lindsay Lohan because she can’t help herself, she has a disease. He further stated that she should be court ordered to rehab….wait Daniel, didn’t you leave the first season of Celeb Rehab early because it was a crock?
    Lucy, I am hoping that one of the REAL rehab centers that treat the underlying condition (mental disorder) and then the symptom (substance abuse) gets hold of CS. That would be a Triple Crown. Celeb comes out against AA but isn’t using/ Real problem begins to surface when he acts all crazy/Someone treats the real problem and the substance abuse vanishes.

  • Sugomom

    By the way, aren’t all these stars making rehab the new “IN” place to be actually breaking the 11th tradition by telling the world about it?

  • Sugomom

    This has been posted before but it’s worthy of another look

  • Rick045

    @J R Harris, The traditions first appeared in the Grapevine in 1946. They were officially adopted at the 1950 convention. The 12&12 was published in 1953. I find it very interesting to consider other things that were happening during that same period, particularly the things Marty Mann was involved in and that Bill Wilson would have been well aware of.

  • AntiDenial

    People- Why are we encouraging JD by debating him?
    His annoying comments(I am being generous here)
    is giving me a headache.

  • Gunthar2000

    @AntiDenial…

    JD’s annoying comments provide a live example of 12 step lunacy in action.

  • Martha

    Anyone who has been around AA will realize that JD is not an aberration, but is very typical of the attitude you get when you question AA dogma. They generally turn into vicious attack dogs when they realize they are powerless to stop our efforts. For every JD out there you can bet that there are scores of others who have found this site just since the CS news broke and it is my fondest hope that we have played a role in keeping people out of the grip of AA and perhaps encourage others to quit the 12 steps and then find an effective way to deal with their addiction issues.

  • The topic of this thread is “AAs Come Out of Their Troll Holes”. Normally a staunch AA member would never discuss this in an open forum because of tradition 10. I commend him because he is giving us a deeper look in to the motives and actions of those deeply entrenched in the 12 Step movement.

    If you notice the major AA Thumpers on this topic are staying totally away from thie Charlie Sheen subject. If they have ex-communication in AA, anyone going on national (or even local) TV or newspapers on this matter would be shunned by the group. This is only an open website that is viewed by hundreds of people a day.

  • I hadn’t seen that, sugomom. Who is she?
    So many people go to aa with depression. aa is depressing beyond measure.

  • AnnaZed

    The guideline is we care as much or as little as the new person does.

    Ha, ha , ha … that is hilarious.

    @JR Harris [who asks] ~ “… Any AA buffs out there know when the 12 Traditions was added?”

    Depending on who you find credible the 12 Traditions book was created:

    (1.) At the urging of an AA membership in need of more wisdom from Saint Bill in the form of literature.

    http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/12_Traditions_Unity/History_of_the_12_Traditions.pdf
    http://www.barefootsworld.net/aatraditions-gv1946.html
    or

    (2.) Cobbled together from bullshit by Bill Wilson and man named Robert Thompson, who not incidentally was not compensated and did not have authorship on the book and later quit AA, horrified by Wilson’s sexual predation.

    http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-traditions.html

    Wilson had found that he really liked deriving income from intellectual property (cashing book royalties) so he was naturally enthusiastic about creating a second income stream y issuing another book.

  • Rick045

    “(2.) Cobbled together from bullshit by Bill Wilson and man named Robert Thompson, who not incidentally was not compensated and did not have authorship on the book and later quit AA, horrified by Wilson’s sexual predation.”

    @AnnaZed , Did you mean Tom Powers? He was the co-author of the 12&12 book, and also went on to become a cult leader himself, founding All Addicts Anonymous and the East Ridge recovery center.
    http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-otherwomen.html#TomP
    http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/

  • Gunthar2000

    Has anyone else ever heard of the Patient Bill of Rights?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Patients%27_Bill_of_Rights

    To be treated confidentially, with access to their records limited to those involved in their care or designated by the patient;

    According to the bill patients have the right to…

    “To refuse medical treatment even if it is recommended by their physician(s).”
    Except if Dr. Drew is able to convince a judge to lock you up, and he’ll stop at nothing, including planting false evidence, to get his way.

    “To refuse third-party interference in their medical care, and to be confident that their actions in seeking or declining medical care will not result in third-party-imposed penalties for patients or physicians. Except when Dr. Drew decides he want’s to be on Oprah or Entertainment tonight, and smears your name all over the media even though he was never your doctor in the first place.

    “To receive full disclosure of their insurance plan in plain language.” Except the parts about how the only available addiction treatment consists of unsolicited religious indoctrination, learned helplessness, and denial of self.

  • joedrywall
  • Actually the Patient Bill of Rights does not apply to Alcoholics and Drug Addicts per the government if you are on probation. They can and do get the information under this loophole by forcing you sign a waiver to prove that you have gone through a Substance Abuse Assessment and completed any recommended treatment. If you do not sign a waiver, the medical authority can neither confirm or deny that you have completed the assessment or the treatment and you violate your probation. It states that they can have access to this information to assure that you finish your treatment, they just can not use it to charge you with a crime. Note that this laws covers “disclosures to elements of the criminal justice system that have referred patients, medical emergencies, research activities, audit and evaluation activities.”

    Source: http://www.samhsa.gov/legislate/Sept01/01907_42cfr_part2.htm

    See the following at the address below for the actual laws:

    2.1 Statutory authority for confidentiality of drug abuse patient records.
    2.2 Statutory authority for confidentiality of alcohol abuse patient records.

    http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_00/42cfr2_00.html

    Catch 22………..

  • AndyM

    Slightly off-topic, but, as an unrepentant flake and loser who has hid his light under a bushel for too long, I now find some of the following stuff more appropriate to my needs than deliberately disorganised and unaccountable aa ever was.
    JD has a point. My real friends in aa (there were a few of them) were very kind and caring as well as brave. They came to see me when I was hospitalised (under police escort and sectioned under the Mental Health Act) in 2000 when I had my first major manic episode, brought on by the stress of worrying about my brother and living underneath a flat which had become a crack house in a high-rise near London’s King’s Cross. Concerns about real issues snowballed into full-blown paranoid psychosis in which I was convinced I was being targeted by gangsters. This did admittedly have its comical side. When they visited me in the locked ward I kept ducking under the barred windows because I thought they had high-powered rifles with telescopic sights trained on me.
    So I remember (some of ) the Kings X and surrounding area members with affection and gratitude, as I do (some of) the members of the Metropolitan Police, who were also kind and understanding.
    My issue is with the ideology and constitution of aa, not with the majority of its membership.

  • AndyM

    http://www.ctono.freeserve.co.uk/

    http://www.zyra.org.uk/madpride.htm

    I’m not very up to date on this but I think there are American chapters of this too.

  • ez

    “Martha says The last thing that AA wants is for Charlie Sheen to remain abstinent (sober). If he does stay clean and sober on his own they use the old dry drunk line or say that he is lying.”

    Yup, that and the old wasn’t a ‘real’ alkie/druggie anyway.

  • @Sugomom, per the video:
    I’m wary of Genita Petralli. Back in december I wrote a sort of expose about a book I felt was designed to get people into Narconon. The author (a former ceo of a narconon center) recently found the post and left an angry comment. He went on to recommend Genita Petralli – so I looked her up. The first thing I found was that she was offering detox services extremely similar to the “biophysical program” aka purification rundown offered by narconon. Now watching this video and hearing her talk about “metabolites”, it’s sounding even more identical.

    After I replied to the author, an ex-scientologist who’s been lurking on my blog (because they think I’m one) confirmed that I was correct, and posted some info that she had been working for some centers licensing a detox program from ABLE intl, which is a scientology owned outfit, and a way that they spread narconon under different names.

    Also, she’s been working with CCHR, another branch of scientology. The thing about CCHR though, is that they court psychiatrists and other doctors who are skeptical of overmedication or pharmaceuticals in general, and they get them to appear in videos and other media to promote the CCHR message. Many of these professionals have been tricked, and have no idea that they are even involved with scientology when they do this. So, I don’t want to jump to calling her a scientologist based on this alone, but it’s one more piece of the puzzle.

    Bottom line, whether she is or isn’t a scientologist, she’s still offering something eerily similar to the narconon detox regimen (which itself has been known to be dangerous and sometimes fatal). Here’s a story about one of the programs she was heavily involved in: http://missionlocal.org/2009/04/nutritional-detox-facility-gets-walloped/

    Also, personally, I don’t buy the nutrition stuff. No doubt it can help you to live a better life physically and eventually help the brain function better too, but I don’t think it’s a cause or cure of addiction. I’ve consistently had a diet most would consider horrible, and it’s never caused me to relapse.

  • AnnaZed

    @Rick045 [who points out] ~ “…Did you mean Tom Powers?”

    Yes, sorry brain blip there. Thompson was another early AAer. You are right Powers was the co-author of the 12×12 (and given how insane Wilson was by then, maybe the sole author. though I do hear Wilson’s pseudo-intellectual grandiose pontificating voice in there).

  • AndyM

    Joking aside, I had one and a half pints of draught Guiness yesterday evening, had a laugh with my favourite barmaid Sharon and said hello to one or two people and watched the sport. I felt better for it. Had an early night because I’m going for my first classical guitar lesson today and want to be as compos mentis as possible.
    My guess is that self-medication of underlying disorders plays a major part in most people’s drinking problems, including many whose drinking history would qualify them in spades to be accepted in the rooms as “real alcoholics”. I have to ask myself whether the occasional pint of Guiness will do me more or less harm than 1000mg of lithium and antipsychotic medication. Don’t try this experiment at home kids, but I don’t make this judgement lightly or ignorantly. Meanwhile:

  • AndyM

  • AllyB

    Don’t know if this has been posted already, but Sheen has joined Twitter.
    http://www.rte.ie/ten/2011/0302/sheenc.html

    This is his validated account.
    http://twitter.com/charliesheen

  • DeConstructor

    He might have his hands full now. I just saw they yanked his kids this morning.

  • AntiDenial

    I missed the 20/20 interview last night. Anybody watch it or have a link?

    That was really poor judgement to go on camera with his kids and porn stars-
    In a different interview.

  • Gunthar2000

    I watched it AntiDenail…

    There was no mention of AA. As usual, they kept all references to recovery pretty generic.
    They had a representative from Hazelden on who suggested that Charlie is in danger because Charlie isn’t really in recovery.

    Overall the show was a big waste of time.

    It seems that Charlie’s rants have cost him his kids now. His ex went to a judge and requested a restraining order claiming that he had threatened to cut off her head and send it to her mother in a box. The timing says it all though… I believe she’s using the current situation to gain leverage, otherwise she would have brought this up earlier.

  • Sugomom
  • Sugomom

    Steven Slate, after I posted that video I saw that she has started a spa called Green mental health. Do you think she left AA and joined Hubbard? Green cash might be her motive.

  • DeConstructor

    There is another aspect to this whole thing, that I thought during the ABC 20/20 interview during the portion with the Hazelden dude.

    He was very restrained, as was Drew Pinskys burned out side kick on Piers Morgans show. I think we may have seen a major shift from people representing the recovery industry, as they seem to be choosing their words very carefully.

    The dogma that would recieve applause in the rooms, would sound somewhere between kooky and batshit crazy in the real world. I think the recovery world is aware of this and also may understand they could lose a lot of crediblity (like the 5% thing made public) if they do not tread lightly here.

    The last thing the recovery world wants (other than Charlie Sheen to remain drug free) is for people to actually google the credibility of the industry.

  • “Green cash might be her motive.” – Hilarious Sugomom!

    But personally, with most of these people who have what I judge to be questionable or horrible methods, I don’t think cash is the main motivation. I think they sincerely believe in what they do. I think some of it, as long as it isn’t dangerous (like simply following some sort of special diet or thinking that yoga or acupuncture will cure you of addiction), may make a fine placebo and give people the belief that they’re being cured or whatever. Heck, I even think AA can have this effect. I have a few friends in AA who really have took what they wanted from AA and left the rest – or at least that’s the best way I can explain their success and relative mental stability – I think they thought they were doing something effective, and this belief allowed them to change their behavior.

    But back to this Genita Petrali figure – if she’s using the same detox methods as Narconon, then she is dangerous. That method has been known to land many people in the hospital, and has resulted in several deaths as well. I don’t know if she’s a scientologist, but the fact is that she’s done a lot of work with them/their offshoots, and she seems to agree with their detox plan.

  • Sugomom

    Steven, someone got to her though. Her first series was all about the ineffective nature of AA and that addiction was not caused by disease. Now she is saying the Dis-ease can be “cured” with natural supplements and detox. I smell cash….and confusion.

  • That Hazelden guy really pissed me off. So did the interviewer – she was so smug and condescending the whole time. Knowing his history with women, I’m surprised Charlie didn’t smack her.

    The Hazelden guy said something like “it’s dangerous for addicts to think that they can control themselves”. That’s it, in nutshell. That’s the whole problem summed up. They’re against any sort of independence of mind. They wanna drag everybody into their collectivist hellhole. The problem is that a group can be no more than the individuals that make it up – so a bunch of people who are stripped of any individuality/independence of mind is useless and dangerous. Who does the thinking? Who makes the choices? What determines the behavior of the group and the individuals of which it’s constituted? When you renounce thinking for yourself, then you really lose control, and it ain’t pretty. This leads to chaos – the bad kind.

    The destruction of the individual in AA is really sad. Nevertheless, there’s something inside screaming to get out – you can see signs of it. It manifests itself as fake/superficial individuality, as seen in the tattoo and piercing fetishes so many people take on once they get into recovery (no offense to anyone with tattoos). They’re dying to be and think for themselves, but they deny it, so it comes out in these distorted ways.

  • Gunthar2000

    Genita Petrali is into orthomolecular medicine, which is basically nutrition and vitamin therapies. She is pretty extreme about her approach, but I’ve never seen anything in either her videos or her book that shows a concrete link to NARCONON.

    Most of the detox formulas and vitamins that she recommends can be purchased at your local pharmacy or General Nutrition Centers. While I think her approach is extreme, to the point that it almost seems like macrobiotics, I do think that some people may find some of her ideas useful and helpful in recovering from alcoholism.

    If you are into vitamin and nutrition therapies Genita Petrali and Joan Mathews Larson have written extensively on the approach.

  • Rick045

    I saw the 20/20 segment with the guy from Hazelden. DeCon says it just right, he was very careful in his choice of words. No direct mention of steppism at all. This highlights the dilemma facing the treatment industry. They want to claim some expertise in treating mental illness, but in order to do that, they have to avoid talking about the very thing the industry is built on.

  • Sugomom

    I think we have an opportunity here. Charlie Sheen just opened a twitter account in the last 12 or so hours and he, PDiddy, others are tweeting him and he is answering. Last night he was on Access Hollywood asking for his supporters to come out. Well, I don’t twitter or tweet or know anything about it. But I know we can help Charlie by educating him that he is not the ONLY one that is angry about AA. If we could expose him to our group, the yahoo groups, orange, etc, he may just say in his next interview that LOTS of support is coming from the groups who want to expose the treatment industry for the scam that it is. Other places we could post are any of the radio and tv shows that he has been on. Get busy people, they aren’t going to find us unless we go out and find them.
    Here is Charlie’s latest twitter or tweet or whatever
    http://twitter.com/CharlieSheen

  • Sugomom
  • Scroll to the bottom of the main page on her website. http://www.the101program.com/
    There are 3 links, the first goes to a link exchange site, the second goes to soberrecovery.com, the third goes to Narconon.

  • Sugomom

    Steven Slate, that gave me the UGH feeling.

  • speedy0314

    @ DeCon:

    “The dogma that would recieve applause in the rooms, would sound somewhere between kooky and batshit crazy in the real world. I think the recovery world is aware of this and also may understand they could lose a lot of crediblity (like the 5% thing made public) if they do not tread lightly here.

    The last thing the recovery world wants (other than Charlie Sheen to remain drug free) is for people to actually google the credibility of the industry.”

    not much of a ‘conspiracy’ guy myself & i think you’re totally on-point here.

    there’s no way the 12-Step/Recovery industry walks away from the Charlie Sheen … thing … with anything but egg on their faces. when he was parroting their talking points then he was a treasured member of the tribe — a valued ‘Face of Recovery’ as evidenced by the CLARE Foundation literature posted by mikeblamedenial; now that he’s slamming AA & all things ‘Recovery’, they’re bound by their Traditions not to formally answer him. the pro-Step advocates initially came on with their usual “do the steps or die”-like ‘medical’ advice (Pinsky’s call for ‘locking up’ Sheen being probably the most egregious — even if quaintly Victorian), but the tenor of that advice has taken a far more subdued turn in recent days.

    that’s probably because — however nuts he may be — Sheen still maintains ENORMOUS popularity AND (as G2K very astutely pointed out) ‘nuts’ isn’t always synonymous with ‘wrong’.

    so, if he maintains his “rock star from Mars” lifestyle AND finds work AND continues to make people money he becomes a living rebuke to the AA ‘jails, institutions, or death’ sentence. if he cracks & goes back to 12-Step with his tail between his legs (highly doubtful at this point), it’s hard to imagine any scenario where he’d become a shining example of “working a good program”. if he voluntarily gets successful treatment for what looks to be (from this arm-chair doctor’s professional vantage point) a pretty acute case of malady which falls within the extraordinarily wide ‘bi-polar spectrum’ of disease then the public gets to see the fallacy of the “one size fits all” mumbo-jumbo that is 12-Step.

    pardon the [admittedly sexist] aside here, but i wouldn’t mind a few weeks/months/years of huffing ‘Charlie Sheen’ if it got me the enormity of the guy’s success in show business & in the sack … among other ‘wins’ for my new favorite warlock.

    the curtain was slowly but surely being thrown back on AA & 12X12 in general over the past few years. Charlie Sheen’s very public criticisms (however ‘manic’ they may be colored) have just about torn that curtain off its rods.

    this is not to say that those church basements are going to go empty overnight or the s**tbirds at the InterFaith Building are going to try to stop hawking beeg bucks, but no one will look at AA in the same way again. AA & the industry it’s spawned has just never faced this level of unrepentant criticism — whether it be from Sheen or Bankole Johnson or even this blog.

    the question’s begging to be answered (“If it’s ‘a solution’ or ‘the solution’, why doesn’t it seem to be solving anything to a degree greater than 5 – 7%?”). not only does 12X12 not have an answer, it’s bound by tradition not to even try to formulate an answer.

    that’s bi-winning in my book.

    l’chaim [levine]!

    speedy

  • I think that the Hazalden guy who was commenting on Charlie Sheen was an interesting choice. From what I can gather, their program is extremely expensive, 12 Step based and believes heavily in verbal abuse and demeaning the self worth of the individual. They have targeted Charlie. I think that every Rehab in the world has targeted him now. I’d even be bet they show the interviews on Charlie during their sessions and comment on them.

  • AnnaZed

    I missed this assertion before:

    @JD [who asserts] ~ “….People here have missed the parallels between CS and the redneck killer on the other thread. The guy was a horrible screwup, got sober a while and impressed people with getting along fine, started drinking again after many years and reverted quickly back to Mr Hyde.

    Charlie and the redneck were doing great in AA, when back drinking Charlie and the redneck don’t do so well”

    but I think it needs a little closer look:

    1990, Sheen accidentally shot his then-fiancee, Kelly Preston. He went to 12-step rehab then as part of his probation deal.

    1995, Sheen is named in a court case as a consistent client of Heidi Fleiss’ brothels. He checked into a step-based rehab (again) that year.

    1998, Sheen is hospitalized after an overdose of injected cocaine. He was in violation of his parole and sent to 12-step based rehab (again).

    2005 Denise Richards divorces Sheen citing his continuous drug and alcohol abuse during their 3 year marriage which commenced in 2002. Sheen heads back to 12-step based rehab (again).

    2009 Sheen is arrested on domestic violence charges. It is well known that both Sheen and his then wife Brooke Mueller were serious drug abusers (and had been for years). They both went to 12-step based rehab (again).

    2010 In May Sheen takes a break from his show to go back to 12-step rehab (again).

    2010 In October Sheen is removed from his suite at the Plaza Hotel after a drunken and drug filled disastrous and destructive night with a prostitute. He was checked into 12-step based rehab (again).

    2011 January, Sheen is hospitalized with abdominal pains widely believed to be connected to drug and alcohol abuse. First he went to yet another 12-step based rehab (again) then he went home.

    These are just the 12-step rehab stops for Charlie that are public record.

    So, I’m not seeing ten years of happy healthy Charlie in AA in this narrative. I anyone else?

    Am I missing something?

    as for the Redneck killer:

    The narrative that I read revealed that though he was perceived as being a model citizen by the collective loons in AA his family members feared him and he acted in sexually inappropriate and menacing ways to the younger female members of his family the entire time he was an upstanding AA member.

    Am I missing something?

  • Martha

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
    That revolving door that Sheen kept going through was the direct result him buying into the powerless bs.

    AA is worthless and destroys more lives than it saves. Nobody in their right mind would want what they have.

  • No wonder he is so high on being Charlie Sheen if he has finally managed to step out of the revolving door. And knows that he is not powerless. I wonder how long he has had his doubts about aa. He should do an aa sitcom. He must have been miserable in the rooms, looking at Annazed’s list.

  • When I found the orange papers I was high on the sheer relief. From the letters to orange and posts here, this is a not uncommon reaction.

    The posts on here that make me most angry are the ones where very very young people are introduced to the cult. At an age when they are impressionable. Even if they leave, I think they carry with them the learned powerlessness and lowly ambition.

  • causeandeffect

    AnnaZed, thanks for your post. I had no idea how many times he’d been to rehab. His rage is making so much more sense to me now. I don’t get the feeling that he has a very deep awareness of the destructive nature of the *sum* of all the negativity he’s been brainwashed to believe and how those things can continue to effect him. I think he’s just scratching the surface of awareness and may still be behaving according to erroneous beliefs. I always worry about people who leave without doing intensive deprogramming.

  • Exactly, cause and effect. I think that people who leave without deprogramming keep some of the powerlessness.

  • AntiDenial

    I think having such a hit show and being the highest paid actor ever-has gotten
    to his head. He is for sure manic. But some mental issues you can turn into positives-
    like Charlie being paid so much. But the mania has gotten the best of him.
    His manic high is classic. I hope in all of this he wises up for his kids and helps us expose the industry.

    I am so mad that the Interviewers are treading so lightly on AA.
    It is like Scientology. Except AA is not sue happy like Scientology.
    What is the stronghold?

  • Martha

    There are some interesting exchanges going on about the article in yesterday’s Hollywood Reporter regarding CS.

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/blogs/live-feed/chuck-lorre-addresses-charlie-sheen-162692?page=2#comments

  • Sugomom

    Stanton Peele just posted a blog on HuffPo, basically the same blog that he posted on his own site about what really was said in the footage left on the cutting room floor. So, maybe we should post over there and sign with the stinkin-thinkin.com link.

  • Sugomom
  • Sugomom

    Martha, that was a very interesting exchange. Until the troll came in.

  • Sugomom

    I am soooo angry right now. This is the first time one of my comments was censored on HuffPo. I replied to Stanton Peele that I thought he did a GREAT job of standing up to the resident addiction specialist Ms. Carise. I said it wasn’t fair that most of what he said ended up on the cutting room floor and that I was disappointed that Carise has been on every day since Saturday and he hasn’t. I wanted both views presented and suggested that GOOD reporting would have been looking into Charlie’s 5% claim. I suggested that perhaps Charlie was MAD in the angry sort of way when people find out they have been involved in a program for decades that actually did more harm than good, and although they remained sober they were not necessarily better off for it. I pointed out the plethora of people that had websites and blogs dedicated to the harm people felt in “the program” and the anger they feel after being subjected to the program. I mentioned ST without providing a link. I would suggest that LoveableLoser is actually a moderator on this site. Could the Martha that challenged her be our own Martha? If so, thank you. If AA doesn’t out itself, choosing screen names like “Loveableloser” should speak volumes.

  • Martha

    Sugomom, yes I posted and replied to an AA apologist. You should check back at Huffpo because there is usually a short delay in putting up a post. Yours may be there in a few minutes.

  • Sugomom

    Thanks Martha, your presentation was great. I’m on Peele’s feed so I saw the post immediately when he posted it. I posted my comment within a minute of reading it, MANY hours before yours. I was stifled. Thanks for carrying on!

  • Sugomom

    Martha, I am going to try the same response I made without reference to the thousands that are speaking out against their experience with AA. We will see.

  • speedy0314

    @ Sugomom:

    when AOL bought the Huff Po they bought Arianna Huffington along with it. Ms. Huff is stridently pro 12X12 — among all other things woo-based. the ‘Comments’ section on every piece is heavily moderated, even the ones authored by Peele or Szalavitz.

    for a supposedly ‘liberal’ site, the Huff Po has probably the most locked-down ‘Comments’ policy on the Inter-Tubez.

    long story short: if your post isn’t up in 30 minutes it’s in the bit-bucket.

    hooray for open discourse,

    speedy

  • Gunthar2000

    @sugomom… Your posts are up at Huffy Post.
    I’m not so sure they’ll allow mine though.

  • Gunthar2000

    You’re right sugomom… Huffy Post has quashed more than half of my comments… They only allow opinions that suit their purpose… It’s an AA Nazi camp over there.

  • tintop

    HuffPost is weak. It tends to very woo orientated and the politcal side is not much better. It is not a place for logical discourse.

  • Sugomom

    Thanks Speedy for the explanation, and Gunthar for the fact that my post made it through. I guess instead of going to the bit-bucket I went into a “wait a bit bucket”.

  • Gunthar2000

    Lovebleloser is responding to posts that haven’t even made it onto the blog yet through my email. That ought to tell you something.

  • Sugomom

    TinTop, what I like about HuffPost is it does cover a whole bunch of topics. I like to be open minded about many topics and they do allow some controversial topics to be posted. All in the name of profit. There is no doubt in my mind that comment’s drive hits and they let mine through to boost the comments on a blog they let posted. I follow some bloggers there for laughs and giggles, they post such ridiculousness but get tons of comments so they always get their posts through, even though they are drivel. I love to laugh at ridiculous posts that get hundreds of comments. Why bother?

  • Sugomom

    Yup, Gunthar, she is DEF a moderator!

  • tintop

    sugomom, I do not think that it is a good source for actual news. Comment and opinion is fine, but I prefer news. Finding news is diffucult today.

  • Public opinion does make the news. Unfortunately the news also makes public opinion. I am wondering if when they interview Charlie, if they only show the worse parts they can to influence public opinion.

  • Sugomom

    I agree Tintop, the news I saw when I was growing up millions of years ago was more informative and less opinionated. I am mad as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore!
    Whatever happened to journalism with lack of personal opinion? Not that HuffPo is jounalism….but I see it on CNN, CBS, NBC. Why didn’t anyone look into the 5% rate? Why wasn’t 20/20 abbout that? It’s exhausting! Time for a “Mad as Hell” vidio. You go!

  • Sugomom

    JR, given that the executives of today’s “news” agencies were part of the 80’s it’s a foregone conclusion that they were probably out of control with their self indulgence, and AA saved them. So if many of the execs of the news and media have spontaeously grown up, but attribute it to “being saved”..well you see where I am going! Instant exoneration.

  • causeandeffect

    I’m trying to post but it’s taking me through a mindless circle of futility. Hey, that reminds me of something else…

  • I’m feeling really old if they did their self indulgence in the 80’s

  • Sugomom

    C&A, the only way I could get through was by registering directly with Huff. But I get your point.

    Gunthar, you made it through! Good post!

  • Sugomom

    Well, JR, it’s all relative…HA!

  • Primrose

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-olmsted/explaining-charlie-sheen_b_829737.html

    You may have seen this. Mark Olmsted talks about disease, he asserts that AA is not religious in the comments. He is commenting below the line. (I do not disagree with all he says).

  • Gunthar2000
  • JD

    ‘Sugomom says JR, given that the executives of today’s “news” agencies were part of the 80′s it’s a foregone conclusion that they were probably out of control with their self indulgence, and AA saved them’

    That’s a given, huh? But I thought I heard here AA doesn’t work and it’s useless to go there and try to stay sober…how could they or any AAs be sober since the ’80s? Aren’t all members sober only 22 minutes and ready to commit suicide at any moment?

    Saying that it’s a given that some people in any profession are longtime sober AAs is dangerously close to stating the true reality of things Sug, and we can’t have slips like this happening…be more careful.

  • Gunthar2000

    18 years of AA relapse here.
    I got sober after I rejected AA and it’s religious program.
    In all my years as an AA member I watched as people whirled in and out of that revolving door. The core group of true believers were people who had resigned themselves to lives of self-doubt and groupspeak. AA is a miserable place to try to sober up… Those who do succeed lose themselves in the process.

  • tintop

    “be more careful.”

    Take your own advice, mister

    If you do that, it is possible that you will be taken seriously

  • Sugomom

    JD, I’m on terra firma. First, you took part of my response to support your point, but it was out of context. Read the second sentence of my comment JD, regarding spontaneous maturation and exoneration.
    Lorre’s response to Sheen was typical of many of your responses, neither adressing the question or the issues presented….just in case you missed it I am posting it below. Huh? No, JD, I do not GET IT!
    “I understand that I’m under a lot of pressure to respond to certain statements made about me recently. The following are my uncensored thoughts. I hope this will put an end to any further speculation.

    I believe that consciousness creates the illusion of individuation, the false feeling of being separate. In other words, I am aware, ergo I am alone. I further believe that this existential misunderstanding is the prime motivating force for the neurotic compulsion to blot out consciousness.

    This explains the paradox of our culture, which celebrates the ego while simultaneously promoting its evisceration with drugs and alcohol. It also clarifies our deep-seated fear of monolithic, one-minded systems like communism, religious fundamentalism, zombies and invaders from Mars. Each one is a dark echo of an oceanic state of unifying transcendence from which consciousness must, by nature, flee.

    The Fall from Grace is, in fact, a Sprint from Grace. Or perhaps more accurately, ‘Screw Grace, I am so outta here!'”

  • Sugomom

    FTG, please push my response to JD through the hanger, thanks.

  • Vera

    When I was in AA every waking moment and half my dreams were plagued by fear and obsession over the demon John Barleycorn. My years in AA were a miserable roller coaster ride of guilt and shame and a revolving door of relapses. Since I freed myself of the mind-trapping cult of AA, I have found true recovery in SMART and rarely if ever think about drinking again, let alone fear alcohol or feel powerless. Talk about being happy, joyous and free…I am on my way to being fully recovered thanks to SMART Recovery. My life will not be a constant obsession of alcohol and daily meetings.

  • Martha

    Vera, I really appreciate that you know there is such a thing as being fully recovered. The “in recovery” for the rest of your life meme is another way to undercut your self confidence and makes you believe you can never be in control of your behavior. A stepper once got in my face when I refused to say I was still in recovery and that I take credit for having recovered. Language can be a powerful thing and that is why I challenge AA speak when I hear it. Try telling a stepper that since you stopped drinking you are no longer an alcoholic and they will drop all pretense of serenity.

  • tintop

    There is such a thing as ‘fully recovered’.
    Fully recovered is a commonplace.

  • Gunthar2000

    I was never an alcoholic by AA’s definition.
    I no longer have an obsession with alcohol… The desire to drink is a thing of the past.

  • Vera

    Alcoholic is an AA term and I discourage the use of that word. According to the DSM and AMA there is no diagnosis of alcoholism or alcoholic. I was alcohol dependent, but that ended shortly after I detoxed for the last time. I continued to have maladaptive beliefs and behaviors concerning alcohol but I am working through those beliefs and behaviors via SMART. Once I have fully rectified and corrected those maladaptive beliefs and behaviors I will be fully recovered and at that point attendance at SMART meetings will no longer be necessary. I do believe that life-long abstinence will be necessary for me to avoid falling back into those maladaptive beliefs and behaviors, but I don’t necessarily believe that is a requirement for everyone who is ever diagnosed as alcohol dependent.

  • Vera

    Correction, the AMA does have a definition of alcoholism but the diagnosis is alcohol dependent.

  • AndyM

    Re earlier points about $cientology infiltration of campaigns and areas of interest that may be close to our hearts, I would caution against their rather clever use of front groups (the Citizens’ Commission for Human Rights has already been mentioned) to hijack legitimate concerns, especially about abuses in the name of psychiatry and the conduct of the pharmaceutical industry. They are really getting quite subtle and plausible in some of their online propaganda. I must confess I’ve been caught out myself once or twice. If you listen closely they sometimes give themselves away by using insider cult words and phrases. Watch out particularly for anything labelled “psychetruth” on youtube.

  • AndyM

    PS
    I actually think the presentation of the narconon crazy recovery program is more plausible at face value than aa’s crazy recovery program, and that’s a bit scary.