Anonymous Child Molesters

Someone explain what is so sacred about anonymity. At this point, it’s just code for “unaccountable.”

AA Member Molests 5-Year Old Child

The family of a five-year-old who was inappropriately touched by his neighbour have been warned there should be no reprisals outside of court.

The man received a nine-month sentence suspended for five years for the assault which occurred in his Dublin home.

offender

Judge James McDonnell at Tallaght District Court also certified the man as a sex offender on the Sex Offenders Register.

The 50-year-old man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, and with an address in south Dublin, had pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting the five-year-old girl at his home in Tallaght on June 1, 2010.

The case was before the court for a victim impact statement and a pre-sentence report.

The young victim’s mother, who was visibly upset, was present in court, as were members of the defendant’s family.

Defence lawyer Steven Dixon said the defendant, who is married and with a family of his own, had shown “shame and remorse at this horrible crime”.

Mr Dixon said the defendant was a chronic alcoholic but was attending Alcoholics Anonymous and was trying to deal with his drink problem. He said the defendant had co-operated fully with the probation service.

The court heard the defendant had three previous convictions, including a conviction for common indecency dating from 1992.

Mr Dixon said the defendant is battling an addiction to alcohol and is attending AA meetings. He said: “He is ashamed and remorseful of this horrid crime and he wishes to deal with the issues that lead to it.”

Judge McDonnell said the appropriate way to deal with the matter was by way of a suspended sentence.

He sentenced the man to nine months jail but suspended it for five years on condition that the defendant be under the supervision of the probation services for the next three years.

therapy

The defendant was also ordered to attend for treatment, urinalysis and counselling as directed and that he attend for therapy.

The judge also imposed a fine of €1,000.

Judge McDonnell also certified the man as a sex offender under the Sex Offenders Act, 2001 for the next five years.

  • AntiDenial

    Child Protective Services needs to contacted and told that Judges are sending
    sex offenders to meetings that parents bring their children to. I feel the courts and DCF
    need to make a ruling on minors attending meetings with felons and criminals. This is a huge LOOP HOLE in child abuse that NO ONE is ADDRESSING that I know of.
    Does anyone know anyone who works in Social Services thst has an opinion or advice on how to bring this problem to the forefront? AA and NA is allowing and inflicting child abuse on children and the courts etc are part of this abuse. This part of the sickness of AA and NA makes me so sad and frustrated at the total ignorance of this taking place.
    This is a bit off topic from the post-but the mention of the 5 year girl being molested by a man being sent to AA-brings memories to mind of the children of all ages at these meetings around possible sex offenders and violent criminals. If the sex offender does
    not offend the child outside of AA-they get another chance to victimze children at the meetings.

  • Acacia H

    This is sickening!!!!!! I was often told to bring my children to meetings and told I should take the kindness of fellow AA members that would offer to babysit my kids so I could attend meetings. NO WAY!!!! They tried to guilt trip me….by saying I was’nt taking my sobriety seriously. It wasmade quite clear, that the most important thing was for me to go to meetings…not the safety of my kids. No thought was given to my children and myself knowing these nutters.
    It’s a disgrace and this has got to stop!

  • http://none violet

    i have never thought this particular thought before, and i may be overreacting, however i wonder WHY people wanted kids in meetings. gross. i hate aa. acaia i brougthmy son to aa, a lot. i feel so fucking shitty about it. still.

  • Acacia H

    Violet, you did what you thought was best at the time. I just remember rehab. No one was allowed to look after other peoples kids for the reasons in the story. No kids were allowed anywhere near meetings…so I carried that through.

  • Acacia H

    My sister use to take her kids to AA conventions. She also told me that I should take my kids. She thought she was doing the right thing at the time.

  • causeandeffect

    The part I find most chilling is: “Mr Dixon said the defendant is battling an addiction to alcohol and is attending AA meetings. He said: “He is ashamed and remorseful of this horrid crime and he wishes to deal with the issues that lead to it.”
    When courts actually believe that addiction to alcohol lead to child molestation there will never be justice for these children. Pedophilia is a completely separate issue and no amount of AA or NA will ever address it. Once again, I find myself unable to express my feelings. I’m at a lack for words…

  • SoberPJ

    I like that.. in rehab no one was allowed to look after others peoples kids… oh, but one day out of rehab it is ok? The difference is not that the idea of it being good or bad changes after rehab, it’s still a bad idea. What changes is that after rehab there is no one to sue, while during rehab, the facility is liable and there would be bad press. In AA, no liability, no bad press.. that anonymous thing you know… Everyone coming out of rehab should be counseled on the dangers of taking kids to meetings. Rehab recommends the meetings, they should counsel on the dangers.

  • http://duischooltruth.wordpress.com JR Harris

    I just realized something real scary about sex offenders in the UK. In the US you can do an online check of the Sex Offender Register and find out if they live next to you with addresses and mugshots. This happened in the UK and I can’t find any such service. How are they going to check if the people in the rooms are sex offenders or not? It would appear that the local constables are the only ones that can check.

    You guys in the UK, am I right about this?

  • AntiDenial

    SoberPJ- I think you are on to something.As I try to make sense of this. How in the WORLD does this loophole go on? I think AA/NA and the courts, DCF state that it is criminal to do so-because it is child abuse. I would like to get more info on the story of people not being allowed to watch kids in rehab or have them at meetings.
    If we could get official statements from any of them as to what there reasoning is and them show it to Judges and Social Services.

  • http://deleted Primrose

    Rehab recommends the meetings, they should counsel on the dangers.

    All rehabs should be sent a link to Massive Attack’s site and to ‘Keep Coming Back’.
    Or one day, something bad might happen. Oh.

  • AntiDenial

    @ Violet I am sorry for your pain. I did think possible when I wrote this there might be some parents on here that took there kids. But like many things in AA/NA-they make you feel bad things are actually good. it seemed normal to you in part because others were doing it and no one brought it up. You are not alone-many Moms and Dads have done this because of being forced by courts to go to 5 meetings a week-leaving many families in a bind.I am more upset with the people who run the groups and Headquarters that should have written guidelines on this being unacceptable. There are none that I know of.

  • http://deleted Primrose

    Antidenial. If you are talking about the UK, ANYONE who goes near a child or an elderly or vulnerable person needs a CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) check. This came about after a school caretaker murdered two 8 year olds and it turned out he had some sort of record. After that everyone in the UK became hyper alert to CRB check culture. So I am quite sure that no rehab would take any risk at all. (In fact, the CRB situation is being watered down soon. If children went to sing in a Carol Service, the organist who had played there for 50 years needed a check, as an example of how seriously it has been taken.)

    But at aa meetings, all the people there are genuinely nice, caring, understanding people (NO THEY ARE NOT! YOU ARE BEING LOVEBOMBED!) and they are all there for one reason (HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT? YOU ARE BEING LIED TO AND MANIPULATED) so I don’t see how anything could go wrong.

    Rehabs will make sure they avoid being sued. It is impossible to sue AA.

  • http://deleted Primrose

    I think you are right JRH, but not sure. ‘Megan’s Law’? There was a campaign for a version of that but the CRB checks have sort of taken its place. But CRB checks are only necessary for everyone who comes into contact with vulnerable people in an institution, eg school, brownies, dance class, swimming club. Not AA.

  • Acacia H

    SoberPJ, I am talking about a goverment run rehab, that was’nt 12-step. Your right that if anything happened then the press would definitely be involved. Visits were allowed after all the meetings had finished or at weekends for a couple of hours. People were taught about boundaries, responsibility. The staff were accountable and were trained therapists, nurses, doctors and psychiatrists.
    I found it a safe enviromnent to be in and learning boundaries was a must for me. Those people that left the rehab would have learnt that too. Alot of the fellow addicts had been survivors of sexual abuse and needed to learn certain boundaries.

  • AntiDenial

    I am in the USA-but sure this is a global issue. Actually I have heard AA and NA being sued. Maybe a class action suit????? I really want to hear from the pro’s there excuse for looking the other way. Or if maybe some dont realize it because no one is complaining.

  • Acacia H

    As far as I know, we dont have access to the sex offenders register here in the UK

  • Acacia H

    Prim, I think the condems are relooking at the crb checks. They want toloosen it

  • A Martin

    JR
    Yes, you are right, I’m fairly sure. There was a lot of publicity about a lady whose littlle daughter was killed campaigning to get the law changed to something similar to what you have in the States some time ago, but it hasn’t happened yet and there’s a lot of resistance to the idea from the powers that be. They take the line that if people had access to a register of sex offenders they would go into hiding and the police couldn’t keep a close watch on them and also that it would be likely to provoke vigilante attacks. A Sunday newspaper took it into their own hands at one point and started posting details in its pages. There was quite a furore about it.

  • http://duischooltruth.wordpress.com JR Harris

    Well in he UK it looks like you used to be to check the CRB for Criminals on Sex Offenders if you fill out an application and give them a good reason. I just found this on the CRB site and 9 million people will no longer have to register as of 11 February 2011 :

    “News item: Radical shake-up of Criminal Record Regime and Vetting and Barring Scheme (VBS)
    11 February 2011

    More than nine million people working or volunteering with children and vulnerable adults will no longer need to register and be monitored by the state following an overhaul of the checking regime.

    The government today unveiled plans to scale back the VBS and Criminal Records Regime to common sense levels while ensuring vulnerable groups are appropriately protected.”

    Source: http://www.crb.homeoffice.gov.uk/

  • A Martin

    And here’s a link to what i was on about:
    http://www.forsarah.com/html/sarahslaw.html

  • Vera

    The reason I ran out of AA more than six years ago was because I did a 4th & 5th with my sponsor. I was told I needed to disclose my resentments, I shared that I held resentment towards the teenage boy that repeatedly molested me for several years when I was between the ages of 8-11, the boy was 6 years older than me. This jack-hole of a sponsor told me that I needed to own my part in the molestation if I wanted to be sober. Exactly what part should an 8 year old boy own by having a 14 year old hold you down and anally rape you? I realized then and there these people are sick and they should not be allowed to have disturbed people labeling themselves “sponsors” masquerading as some sort of knowledgeable therapists. Reading these new articles of what is going on in AA, I now realize the clubhouse is a some sort of dry speakeasy for sociopaths. And thinking back on it, that sponsor wanted to know all the gory details of my molestation, sick fuck was probably getting turned on….sorry if my post is TMI.

  • causeandeffect

    Parents everywhere should be able to go to a sex offender registry and enter their zip code or city and see all the registered offenders in their area so they know who to protect their children from. I’m surprised you can’t do that in the UK. This offender was the neighbor!

  • http://duischooltruth.wordpress.com JR Harris

    In the UK they are scaling the reporting and following of offenders way back. They are making it even harder to track them. The entire new plan can be read here:

    http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime/vetting-barring-scheme/

  • Acacia H

    On Question Time BBC1 Thursday just gone, the government said that it was closing the loop hole where, the paedophile that killed them two friends, was’nt caught before because he changed his name by deed poll

  • tintop

    pretty raw.
    Damnable shame

  • http://deleted Primrose

    Vera. I am sorry. That is why we need to do what we are doing here.

  • http://deleted Primrose

    The point about the UK situation is not the changing CRB legislation. It is that in AA no one is CRB checked or checked in any way whatsoever. Their only qualification is their willingness to join a cult, accept an illogical dogma, deceptively recruit and peddle dangerous lies (disease theory).

  • http://duischooltruth.wordpress.com JR Harris

    Vera, are you in the UK or US? It is shocking and I am very sorry also.

  • Vera

    JR, I’m in the US.

  • Acacia H

    Vera, that’s way outta order! Says it all when a person puts part blame on sexual abuse and rape of a child on that child! This is part of the secondary damage that these sick sponsors perpertrate on others. Sorry to hear that you went through that.

  • causeandeffect

    Vera, I’m so sorry to hear this happened to you! And this is certainly not an isolated incident by any means. It’s absolutely atrocious for the victim to be blamed! Makes me want to knock that sponsor’s head off with a baseball bat! And I’m not a violent person, I just have strong protective tendencies…

  • Ben Franklin

    Looks like JD needs to get on a plane and do a 12 step call! The defendant seems like a pedophile-er-Future AA allstar that is in some need of assistance.

  • Pingback: Anonymous Child Molesters « Stop13stepinaa's Blog

  • http://stop13stepinaa@wordpress.com massiveattack

    Vera says
    JR, I’m in the US.
    Im so sorry this jack ass said this to you. this happened to a woman I know IN LA, where when she was grabbed they told her she should have a better sense of humor about it.
    so sick.
    I am collecting stories to address situations like yours inside AA. If you want to write me please do.
    I am working seriously to out all the bad, hideous behavior.
    You can see on my blog http://www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com

  • http://stop13stepinaa@wordpress.com massiveattack

    what the hell is going on in our culture to use the excuse that one is a drunk and so that is makes someone a pedophile. This is ridiculous!!!!!.

    This makes me so mad.
    I drank. I got drank but good God, I never did this crap. Being a drunk does not make a sex offender!
    WE need to do more.
    Like the letters we wrote to the LA times.
    Let’s pick a social service office, something proactive to warn those in charge.

  • AndyM

    This is such a hard subject, isn’t it? I’m 56 years old and still coming to terms with something which happened to me when I was very young. I always thought it happened when I was about five, but according to my brother I was very young indeed, little more than a toddler. I was playing in the front garden when I was abducted or somehow enticed away by a teenage boy with a very unpleasant reputation who lived in the same street and his little gang. I don’t remember the event in explicit detail beyond the fact that I was systematically terrorised by them in his back garden and that it involved being partially undressed, poked, prodded, tied up and jeered at and threatened with fireworks. They must have let me go eventually and I ran back home so distraught that my parents couldn’t get any coherent account out of me for a long time. My brother, who was a few years older than me was able to clarify certain details a few years ago before he sadly died of alcohol-related liver failure at aboutthe age I am now. He told me that this was a regular “sport” that these kids engaged in and they had done it to others locally. I suspect they did it to him. He intervened on an occasion a couple of years later when they tried to do it again and he saw it happen. The ringleader grew up to be anotorious local criminal and heroin pusher. When I was about 20 my mother showed me an article saying that he had been stabbed to death through the heart. I just said “Good”.
    Understandably this left me with trust, relationship and intimacy problems, to put it mildly, as well as quite a serious “anger management” problem.
    I’m glad I never let anyone persuade me to do a fourth and fifth step. The idea of “finding my part” in what happens is just effing absurd, insulting and abusive.

  • AndyM

    I mean “happened”. My thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I’m not doing so rashly, but after literally many years of processing it.

  • AndyM

    And Vera. Don’t apologise for your post. Your brave. You’v survived what happened AND the bullshit from the sponsor. I’m not joking when I say it’s the first sponsor that does the damage. Seeing the harm that step 4 thing did to others was a warning to me not to go down that road.

  • AntiDenial

    @massive Attack I think picketing is a great idea? Does anyone know any
    resrictions on this? We could picket Courthouses and even some AA and NA offices.
    Social workers need to take a stand on this.

  • hulahoop

    Welcome to AA where the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. Hopefully all those other nasty, perverted, sick, twisted desires will go away as well if you get a sponsor and work the steps. Please remember, quality sobriety is the main goal of AA and AA will not be held responsible if you do something unspeakable and unimaginable to another member or their family. AA would rather see sober criminals than drunk ones.

  • DeConstructor

    I would think there would be some liability for judges and other sentencing authorites should we forward cases like this to them.

    A person sentenced to AA must be warned of the grave dangers. If they were raped, injured, assaulted, murdered etc, with the judge being certifiably aware these things REGULARLY happen in AA, we could kill the organization by making judges afraid to send fresh meat.

  • Mona Lisa

    Vera, I am so sorry about what happened to you and your experience with your sponsor. The notion that a child needs to “look at his part” in his own molestation is bizarre beyond words and incredibly abusive. In my opinion any clinician who sends a molestation survivor to a 12 step group without at least a warning that this might occur is guilty of malpractice.

  • hulahoop

    @ Decon – A person sentenced to AA must be warned of the grave dangers. If they were raped, injured, assaulted, murdered etc, with the judge being certifiably aware these things REGULARLY happen in AA, we could kill the organization by making judges afraid to send fresh meat.

    Rehabs too? Rehabs do not warn people about the possible dangers of AA while they are doing recruiting for them. Follow up care is usually voluntary AA meetings. How voluntary is AA (NA…whatever) once you have been in a rehab for at least 28 days? People learn the AA dogma in rehabs.

  • DeConstructor

  • DeConstructor

    @HulaHoop-

    Absolutely- Rehabs, Social Services, and anyone with sentencing authority such as judges or parole/probation officers. All should be aware of the grave dangers they are sentencing people to, and being aware of the danger, should be held responsible should a crime occur.

    We only need to have one or two judges or municipalities to get sued for the word to get out. A couple of multi million dollar judgements (and they would be with the Inouye ruling) and the rehabs and courts would be forced to stop this insanity.

  • hulahoop

    @ Vera and Andy – It took a lot of courage for you disclose the horrible things that happened to you. I am sorry those things happened. Thank you both for coming forward to speak about them. I know it was beyond difficult.

    It’s baffling to me how anyone could be serious when they ask someone who has been abused in that way what their part of it was. I heard some lame excuse about the real meaning of asking someone what their part in it means they are holding on to it and using as an excuse for whatever is wrong in their lives. That is just bullshit. It really is. There is no allotted timeframe to get over something like that.

    From my own personal experience, it took me years to get over it. I will say be very careful about who you entrust your children to. The people who tried with me were “family members” by marriage. It took me a very long time to realize they were the one with the problem, not me. Are all of my problems due to them? No. But they damn sure did not help in the scheme of things.

  • Rick045

    I know when I went through treatment, there were no warnings given about anything, yet the importance of getting a sponsor was heavily emphasized. The closest thing to a warning was a reminder that the sponsor should have at least two years sobriety.

  • http://www.stinkin-thinkin.com friendthegirl

    Vera and AndyM, I think of my own little boy when I read your stories and it devastates me that this happened to you. I’m so sorry. Of course, of course! a child with not even a conception that such depravity is even possible could have no “part” in it. These people are right — they’re not a religion; they’re a caricature of a religion.

  • AndyM

    Thanks ftg
    In my case if Iremember right (and I think I do) it was a case of casual sadism which was their idea of fun. If they hadn’t spotted me and seen their chance they might have tortured somebody’s pet cat.. They probably did that too. I went to the cemetery where he (the ringleader) was buried a few years ago to piss on his grave. It was a cathartic and uplifting spiritual experience. Seriously!

  • AndyM

    Anyway. I dedicate this masterwork to the miserable memory of one David Pugh, unsadly no longer with us (andI promise you that’s theonly religious mania I’mgoing to indulge in today::

  • AndyM

  • AnnaZed

    Not to belabor this with another account from personal history, but both of my AA sponsors strongly felt that I needed to look at my part in having been attacked when I was a small child. In will say that I must have retained some vestiges of sanity while in AA because in both cases I answered (with an appropriate amount of incredulity mingled with outrage), “What the fuck are you talking about? I was just a child.”

    In one case the woman needled and prodded and got me to describe the attack and questioned whether I was someplace that my mother had told me not to go or if I had lied to her that day or if I had misbehaved. Seriously, what the hell? I went through enough years of therapy to get it finally driven into my head by professional psychotherapists that it was not my fault to have some half cracked AA lunatic try to convince me that I had a part in being attacked by a perfect stranger in my parents’ back driveway when I was 7 years old? Yet here I am even now making sure that I frame the narrative exactly right so that readers understand that it was not my fault. Like, would it have been my fault if I was someplace that my mother told me not to go? Would it have been my fault if I had misbehaved that day? (I don’t remember, though odds certainly are that I had misbehaved in any given span of time or thought that I had) Would it have been my fault if I had lied to my mother? Of course not, yet AA planted this niggling little seed of doubt in my mind, makes me defensive even now and sends out a siren call to this day that says that maybe what I really need is a spiritual awakening in AA, not a sane fulfilled life.

    In AA this is a real central conceit of 12-step theology “It might not be your fault, but you had a part in it,” whatever the fuck, seriously whatever the hell ~ I just can’t curse enough to satisfy myself on this ~ that is even supposed to mean.

    On of my sponsors, an absolutely lovely, kind and profoundly deluded person told me of her own rape by several man in a car in her late teens. She claimed to have been liberated by looking at my own part in that crime (she wouldn’t even call it a crime). She felt that her way of dressing, her behavior and her having smoked a joint with these men constituted her part in having been sexually violated, beaten, robbed and left by the side of the road without her shoes. Amazing isn’t it?

    The more amazing thing is that I actually gave all of this coercive craziness a fair amount of consideration at the time.

  • AntiDenial

    I dont understand which step is it that has AA look into “ones part” in these matters?

    It is so sad hearing these stories. Let’s do what we can to get the word out so more children dont have to suffer.

  • AnnaZed

    @AntiDenial [who asks] ~ “…I don’t understand which step is it that has AA look into “ones part” in these matters?”

    Well, it’s hard to tell with these pug-ignorant rubes what they actually mean by anything at any given time, but the short answer is that during an AA 4th Step the participant either makes up a list from scratch or uses a template to list entities and events that have caused resentments in their lives because these closely held feelings of having been wronged are thought to cause the disease of alcoholism so it is up to the practitioner himself to do the steps. These searching and fearless moral inventories can include anything and I have heard AAs express resentments centered around elementary school classmates, parents (of course), political entities, retail stores, old boy-friends etc. The template of AA also insists that devastating life events like having been victimized must be part of this list.

    Here is a 12-step online workbook with a 4th-step worksheet as it is described in the Big Book of AA in the chapter entitled How It Works
    http://www.step12.com/aa-files/4th-step-resentments-x.pdf

    I particularly liked the headings :

    Freighened [sic]
    Dishones [sic]

    Really, I could not have fabricated this or made something up to make AA appear more laughable if I tried. I wouldn’t dare create characters in fiction so deluded and plain stupid that they would create a web-site and create a PDF template for people to use to pursue a genuine spiritual experience® and not even deploy a spell-check function for the vitally life-saving important column headings. It’s amazing. The galling thing is that we live in a culture where people who haven’t bothered to even peruse this garbage somehow think that pretty much anyone who has any kind of drinking problem of any level of severity from closet tippling to multiple DUIs would benefit from filling out this form and slogging through every entry with some completely unqualified and almost certainly certifiably insane stepper.

  • Vera

    I really believe that when an AAer/sponsor blabs that one “shoud look at their part…” in x, y or z they are just mindlessly prattling off an AA lingoism, much like “let go, let God” and they have no idea the implications of what they are saying and how devistating such inane platitudes have on someone who is truly suffering, especially if the person being told to look at their part honestly reached out in trust hoping to find help with something that has caused a lot of pain.

    That said, I’m not in pain any more over the abused from childhood or the mental abuse from AA. I worked through the childhood abuse with a real, licensed counselor and freed my mind of the clutches of AA with rational thought and with a solid recovery program in SMART. But, these AA freaks need to have their dangerous recovery malpractice exposed for what it is…snake oil and cultism religion.

  • AndyM

    Annazed
    In one single sentence i’d say:
    They fucking well get off on it!

  • AndyM

    That’s it, in a nutshell IMHO.

  • sugomom

    I would first like to express my condolences to the members that have been the victims of such heinous abuse. My story pales by comparison and I don’t have any experience with this “what’s your part” in AA. But I do in Alanon. I will talk in more detail about this when I cohost with Gunthar in March, but as a “condition” of being able to talk about my husband’s rehab with his, and I use the term loosely “counselor” I had to submit myself to Alanon. The first meeting, I was pretty much a deer in the headlights. Until this woman stood up and whined and whined about her chronic relapsing junkie husband who had just emptied their bank account for the third time, she was in bad shape financially. Yet she had made the decision to stay with her husband. She had been the only employed person in the household. So silly me, politely and diplomatically asked, thinking we were having a “discussion”, why his name was still on the account. I suggested that since it was her income alone that fed the account, and that she was the financially responsible one, that she simply open an account in her own name and pay the household expenses from it. (Thinking in my head, you ignorant woman, fool me once…but three times?) You are all chuckling by now because you know what I was hit with.
    Second meeting, they singled me out to “SHARE”. Well, since I figured you could complain and people would just say “thank you for sharing”, I told my story about how my husband walked out the door one day into a three week binge, ended up in rehab, became a full fledged member of AA, was now chairing meetings and had moved in with a woman from AA and all of this within the first 60 days of his “sobriety”. This cranky old lady asked me what my part in the demise of my marriage was. Before I could answer I was verbally assaulted by a creepy guy in the corner who asked me why I enabled my husband to do this. Needless to say, I never returned to an alanon meeting. But I did spend a good bit of time getting beat up over on Sober Recovery for questioning the “Program”. I wish I had a buck for every time I was kicked to my side of the street.

  • http://none violet

    I do think social services is sorta aware of this. i have mentioned this before, buti i know it was finally a chick who volunteered @ a woman’s shelter who told me, you uneed to stop going to open aa. not that a grass roots women’s shelter and state funded social services are buddies, but still. it would be a smart use of my time to sit down and write some thoughtful letters to social services and other state funded/run entities. i think the germ of our ideas are well known by at least several people in each entitiy, but the more info. prolly, the better.

    btw, does anyone else have to constanly rewrite their sentence like I do due to constantly constructing their sentences in passive voice. god!

  • http://none violet

    after reading annazed’s post, i keep thinkin gof that SICKFUCKLAME mantr that was in my head for so effing long, “WHERE WAS *IIIIII* WRONG.”

    Actually Violet, you were not wrong.

    ^

    I think maybe one or two women said this to me *very* quietly and so very parenthetically, as if they were afraid to hear themselves utter this decided truth right outloud. This is the only part where I feel like a shit, where I wanna be more like MassiveAttack, and be there for the new woman. I want to be there to break the crazy hold that AA will get over her.

    But really, hopefully, she can do this for herself. Nobody did it for me. The people who truly helped me are right here, on this blog. And the crazy Jesus sponsor who told me that if I needed to leave AA she would still be there for me (though she does talk about my disease when I talk to her… But she cannot help it… She is there and believes our disease is killing us all!)

    Also, if I am there for the new woman, she won’t get the VERY obvious clue that most emotionally healthy women LEAVE. It is like saying, I need to join the KKK to let the new member get that it is a lunatic operation.. OK, maybe that is a stretch…

  • Lucy

    In answer to your question, Violet, I too am a slave to the God of Grammar, who rules by the transitive verb.

  • http://none violet

    Sorrty to overpost (you guys know I cannot really help it!!!), but I am so excited to here Sugamom! Who is is on the agenda in our own radio days?

  • http://none violet

    VERA, holy fuck. I am SOOOO sorry. I am kicking your ex sponsor in her mouth, in my mind for you right now.

  • http://none violet

    also, i noticed annazed had a link to one way to do a 4th step. there are so, so many. hers was a super example.

    here is one example that one of my dumbest sponsors gave me. luckily another aa sort of had this woman’s number and told me to throw the qs out. she knew how creepy and invasive they were. i do now… these sorta qs are the kind you’d do with a therapist, one with experience (not with a community college certification). http://www.cyberrecovery.net/4thStepInventoryGuide.html

  • seeingred

    Hate na/aa. I was sexually abused and my property destroyed by a fellow “member” who let me know they were there only under court order.

  • seeingred

    I have had many years of therapy and I have spent years working on myself. I was thrown into treatment at the age of 17 into an adult treatment program for drug addicts by an abusive psychologically volatile father that had just gotten sober in aa. At 22 I was almost four years clean and married a man twice my age in aa. I was a victim of serious domestic violence. He stayed sober and I lost in a 2 year trial custody of my daughter to him. Then at the age of 37 I started using drugs again while pursuing a college degree. I quit on my own at 39 and got another college degree. At 40 years old I decided to get reinvolved in the program. Huge mistake. I was so severly abused the state pressed charges against the offender. AA/NA is loaded with predatory males, creeps, freaks, criminals and yes! people much too young to be thrown into the rooms like I was at 17. I can honestly say looking back that the 4 star exclusive treatment center I was forced to attend at 17 was horribly abuseive. My father is 25-26 years clean and just as evil, narcissistic and battering as he was before getting sober. Except he has a platform to carry out his sick depraved emotional needs in AA. They all just love him.

  • seeingred

    After I was assaulted in Spetember 2011 (bitten over thirteen times and my new car crashed twice by the perpatrator) I decided I could not go back to na/aa again. The state had pressed charges against him. In therapy at the Rape Crisis Center my therapist suggested I go back to meetings. I went. This afternoon was my last meeting ever. I was so thoroughly creeped out by the people in there. Sick of being blamed for things that are not my fault. What a sick place…. a catch all really for people that are not addicts as well. Homeless, pedophiles, mentally ill, you name it they are going to meetings because they are society rejects. Plain and simple.

  • seeingred

    I mean Sept. 2010. 00ps!

  • AndyM

    Just a thought here that I think might be quite important to consider. A couple of us have described very frankly some very personal issues of an extremely sensitive nature. People with such issues are obviously prone to develop serious psychological difficulties and badly damaged self-esteem. I for one know that this is so in my own case. Bearing this in mind, I would like to suggest that we consider the possibility of either having a more confidential members only section in which such issues could be discussed, if only in fairly general terms, on a rather more confidential basis than is realistically possible in this more open and fast-paced settng, and/or have a section posting links to such websites and organisations that could help with such issues.
    I would like to hear what people think about this. I am not myself a good person (at present, at least) to organise this, given that I have rapid cycling bipolar disorder and OCD and can be very changeable and volatile at times. I also have very limited computer skills. I would, though, of couse, be very happy to share what I know of help that is available, although of course my own experience is limited to the UK. I have a background, long prior to my own eventual bipolar diagnosis, of working in the occupational therapy department of a psychiatric hospital as a teacher of handicrafts.
    By the way, I don’t regret having made a very personal disclosure here, I’m just aware of the obvious dangers of lack of confidentiality and the possibility (likelihood, in fact) that there might be malicious lurkers and trolls here of a worse stripe than those we sometimes engage in lighter-hearted argy-bargy with.

  • AndyM

    PS
    I think another point to consider is that, as in the rooms, one person’s intimate disclosure can spark off another’s and they might sometimes come to regret it. It could have adverse effects even if everyone was kind and understanding.

  • AndyM

    PPS
    I should have said a few, rather than a couple. Quite a few, in fact.

  • AndyM

    PPS
    I still believe most people in the roomzzz… mean well and their hearts are in the right place, but sometimes they are juggling with chainsaws. Please don’t let us make the same mistake here.

  • AndyM

    I’m off to get my ears syringed so bye for now, I’ll give you a break from this speight of muliple posting thanks all. I’ll leave you with this:

  • AndyM

  • http://www.stinkin-thinkin.com friendthegirl

    Welcome, seeingred. Recently, another member here talked about a respected AA oldtimer, like your dad, being revealed to be a domestic abuser during a meeting. I wish I could remember who/where so I could link you (it’s probably in this very thread).

    You’ll find you’re in good company here and that others can relate to your story. I hope you stick around, and visit the community pages, too, where you can find more support.

  • http://www.stinkin-thinkin.com friendthegirl

    AndyM, On the community pages, you can start closed mailing lists. That might be a good place to create a private discussion on sensitive subjects. I’m not sure if you can create a private (readable only by members or invite-only) groups, but I think so.

  • sugomom

    I was going to suggest the same thing FTG. Since Andy said he’s not particularly adept with computers, I am offering to set it up for you Andy. Yes it is possible to set up a group by invitation only and it can only be read and posted to by group members, not the entire community and certainly not the general public. Now, you might want to do some screening, because there are always trolls.
    Welcome seeingred. I have plans to write a blog post about abusive behaviors and alcohol, as I have just finished a series of books and articles by Lundy Bancroft. Stay tuned.

  • AndyM

    Hey Thanks very much Sugamom!

  • sugomom

    Andy What do you want to call it? Join the community pages if you have not already. I can’t do that for you but it’s pretty easy, just hit the link at the top of this page. Give me the title and once I create it over there you can tell me who you want to invite. Anybody that want’s to talk about sensitive subjects, make sure you are a community member. I can assure you, this topic, whatever Andy decides to call it, will be monitored for rudeness and/or critical comments or suggestions! You can also request to join and seek approval. I think we all have a real good handle on who is straight up and who isn’t.

  • humanspirit

    @AndyM

    I think this would be good. I’m interested in the subject of OCD, for example, and how it relates to alcoholism and addiction in general, but there’s no way in a million years I would discuss it on a public forum in relation to my own personal experience or that of people I know. I often feel restricted (and frustrated) about what I can and cannot say, even when I know that it is hugely relevant, for exactly those reasons of confidentiality. I just will not do this on any thread that is open to any passing person to read and comment on. An ‘invitation-only’ group would be very welcome.

  • AndyM

    Sugamom and humanspirit
    How about calling it Outside issues of a sensive natur (heads, hearts and medicine)?

  • AndyM

    But I know I get long winded. If u can make it punchier and more apposie, feel free!

  • http://deleted Primrose

    hs, I am very interested in the OCD connection. People with OCD have been advised to go to al-anon in spite of the fact the there is no alcohol connection whatsover. I was told that people in al-anon suffer from OCD and that there are twice as many suicides in al-anon as there are in aa. I looked into this (ie google and asking on st) and it would appear that the suicide ‘fact’ is spurious but the OCD connection has legs. I am glad I am not the only one to find it difficult to find old threads. I find that shouting on the neverending thread finds the right person.

  • sugomom

    How about naming it after the old snail mail line “Personal and Confidential” or maybe it was “Private and Confidential”? I have had an extremely busy week, feeling very uncreative today. I do like Heads Hearts and Medicine, but I just don’t know if it beckons to the person that really needs help dealing with an abuse issue, it’s sounds like a great topic for the rest of what we are talking about. Let’s get it started Andy! I just friend requested you over there and we can talk more through private message.
    Title suggestions welcome.

  • sugomom

    Prim, my ex had horrible OCD. I’m interested too!

  • AndyM

    Sugamom
    Yes, that would be great! Either of those names would do, but maybe private and confidential has the better ring to it.

  • sugomom

    Andy and all, I have created the private group in the community section titled Personal and Confidential. I have invited those people that I have identified as being respectful members with an interest in discussing delicate and private issues such as abuse and mental illness. Thing is, you have to be my friend to get an invite. Andy, Seeingred, accept my friend request. Anyone else can send me a friend request. But if you haven’t regularly respectfully posted with a CONCERN and interest in these topics, you might be placed on the back burner. I will carry a big stick and have little tolerance for anything other than compassionate responses to very private issues.

  • AndyM

    Sugamom
    Great! Thanks ever so much. I did join the community thingy and I re-familiarised myself with it yesterday. I’m taking a break now for a stroll down the prom and to the pier, but I’ll soon be ready to be back in the fray!

  • http://profacero.wordpress.com Z

    Thanks Sugomom.

    That whole cant about “what was your part in [abuse]” is SO harmful. Abuse can happen to anyone: the idea that you “attracted” it because there was something wrong with you is not what the experts in these matters say … this is sort of like saying you got raped because you were good looking.

  • http://stop13stepinaa@wordpress.com massiveattack

    Andy,
    I am so sorry , childhood stuff about abuse is one I did deal with in good therapy.

    AA ‘s can be really nuts! When I did deal with it at 15 years sober, I realized AA people were now making shit up out of context from the book and that Bill W adn Bob were never talking about stuff that happened to children , when they mentioned looking at what was my part in it.

    I made this a crusade of mine if I heard some idiot in a meeting talking about ANY KIND of child abuse or sexual molestation, I would clearly let them get an ear ful of what I understood. And how ridiculous that statement is.

  • http://stop13stepinaa@wordpress.com massiveattack

    seeing red,
    HI. I hope you contact me. I am making a ful llength Documentary to expose the abuses and criminal behavior going on in AA.

    makeaasafer@gmail.com

    AA has become a horrible place. I am sober 35 years, got 13 stepped many times when I was new ages 18/19 Horrible stuff. I survived but I am out to let the world know the truth about AA.

    PLease please I would like to speak to you. If you want.

  • Longshot

    Jesus fucking Christ

    6 months ago I was in the AA, and I live near Tallaght.

    I was probably in a meeting with this cunt!

    And thank god I never made it to the fourth step with AA, blaming myself for being violated by a 55 year old man.

    I’d have killed myself over that

  • yahoo

    words fail me…