Another AA Sexual Assault

Here is a story out of Winnipeg about an AA whose character flaws include raping and beating women. His first victim was his ex-wife, who he met at an AA meeting. Naturally, AA welcomed him back with open arms. The second victim was another woman he had 13th stepped in AA and started dating, and though they had stopped dating, she remained his friend, and drove to his home to help him when he phoned her in a drunker stupor. She was met with this:

The man put duct tape over her face, bound her hands and legs together and then sodomized her. He also demanded she call her 18-year-old daughter to come over so he could sexually assault her while she watched. She was repeatedly beaten when she refused. The man also threatened to hit her with a lead pipe.

I wonder why this woman’s higher power™, an all-knowing AA god who was kind  enough to take away her shortcomings and keep her sober, would not keep her out of harms way by advising her not to show up at this guy’s home to help him in the first place.

Ask a true AA believer, and you will be told this guy was obviously not working the program correctly, or he would not have been drunk in the first place. Or, maybe he was not a real alcoholic, as the steps only work for real alcoholics. What I wonder is why his higher power™, who was standing idly by, waiting for him to really start working those steps properly, would not step in and intervene in this situation. It seems like if He (the higher power) were going to allow this guy to victimize a person, He would have forced this AA to grab a bat or a baton and sodomize himself. Now that would be a higher power™ I could believe in.

72 Responses to 'Another AA Sexual Assault'

  1. Donald Quinn says:

    Ask a true AA believer, and you will be told that AA is not responsible for the actions of individual AA members.

    AA is completely unregulated.

    The courts have loaded up the halls with toothless criminals.

    Mind control freaks… Sex offenders… AA is just not a safe place.

  2. mikeblamedenial says:

    Examples like the one here are endless. We did a vid on this exact topic awhile ago. There is a sure cure for most of these cases, described near the end of it.

  3. Dan says:

    I’m trying not to be cynical or unfairly demonize AA for the actions of a few, yet this incident reminds me that AA all too frequently tolerates obvious sociopaths, and in some cases the behavior of sexual predators. Coed meetings, it should be obvious, must be preceded by an announcement by the leader that any complaint of 13th stepping or of salacious remarks will result in a group consciousness meeting to consider immediate expulsion from the group.

    • Donald Quinn says:

      Great idea Dan.

      That would require AA (as an organization) to admit there is a problem.

      I'm not sure that will ever happen, but it was a great idea anyway.

    • AnnaZed says:

      Thanks for my morning laugh. Believe me, I feel bad laughing at your touching naiveté, but you can't have been in AA very long if you think that there is a chance in hell of such a thing occurring.

      • groovecat says:

        way back in 2001, i use to attend a co-ed aa meeting in los gatos (at the urging of my sponsor, who claimed that folks in los gatos were of a better caliber). i only attended four of them, and at the beginning of all of them, the chairperson would make a statement such as "
        if any of you men are thinking of acting inappropriately towards the younger girls, and you know what i mean, you will be dealt with harshly."

        WTF??? why would there even be the need for such a warning if aa were a safe place? the chairperson himself, i found out later, was a convicted child molester, and seemed to think that all the other men in the room had the same sick perversion that he had.

        • Anonymous says:

          only in aa…. this is actually an amazing idea for a meeting format. but the more of this site i read, and the more i realize that aa is made up of sociopaths who are there to back each other up, the more i realize that this is naive,as the predatory behavior happening is what is bringing people back. they WANT it to happen. i talked to a counselor at a local battered woman's shelter about this issue. she explained that it was like an orchard for abusers,.

  4. frunobulax57 says:

    I know the reverence for “PROVE IT” is strong when it comes to these things. Since it is such a favorite topic here and with all the reverence paid to scientific ‘data’ with regard to alcoholism, there must be some statistics/data indicating that within the AA society there are incidents of antisocial sexual human behaviors in greater numbers than other communities. Can some please cite the data used to formulate and support this seemingly popular “AA is a den of sexual deviants” much more so than other communities like, the Elks Club, Microsoft, Lutherans, NYPD, square-dancers? Or is the opinion rampant merely a guess of some kind? I know the reverence for “PROVE IT” is strong when it comes to these things.

    • tintop says:

      I do not understand how comparing assault rates is relevant. Every crime stands on its'own. Elks Club is responsible for Elk's Club, Microsoft is responsible for Microsoft, AA is responsible for AA.

    • mikeblamedenial says:

      Who needs studies, data, and reports when we have film at eleven? When judges start ordering sociopaths into the Elks Club, and the secretaries sign their slips, we will talk about the Elks Club. Till then, let's talk about how AA.

    • friendthegirl says:

      It confuses the holyhell out of me when you get the back of MOTR AA.

    • AnnaZed says:

      Given that to my certain knowledge the US Courts (that is to say institutions of the United States Government) do no mandate attendance at an Elks lodge or a Lutheran church (or say a Catholic Church) as a condition of avoiding incarceration and that secretaries, ministers or others in charge at these institutions do not sign documents that are filed with the courts attesting to that attendance I feel that the relative presence or non-presence of predatory individuals in those institutions to be separate matter.

      That said, the continued use of the institution of Alcoholics Anonymous as a dumping ground for all manner of perpetrators of crimes by the United States Government as evidenced by the provided links and attested to by my own considerable experience does in fact demonstrate a substantial higher likelihood of encountering said perpetrators when attending Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. They are required to be there. It is literally built into AA as an institution.

  5. murray says:

    I went to a meeting today first time in three months.
    Some old oldtimer was prattling on about how he had been in two car crashes and was squashed by a tractor.

    His reasoning for his survival was that God was looking out for him.

    This I have realised offended me.

    What makes this old fart so special.

    Ya Dig.

  6. AndyM says:

    Prove that there are more sexual predators in AA than in the Elks ? Is that the best response you can manage?
    By the way, what was described in the article was violent rape. "Antisocial sexual human behavior" is a pretty inadequate term for that.

  7. violet says:

    what "MOTR" AA?

    Also what is ETOH (am i getting this right? danny refers to is here and in his blog).

    I think Danny makes a goof point when he says prove it and well, there is not a lot of in print proof. not because it is not there, but because people are aware enough to do this sort of study. there is the recent study i read with the nurse who interviews aa women about thirteen steeping… i think there is a link from this site, but this is a rarity. i wish there was more proof. heck, if i were not at work, being as ingle mom, or in my post bac program i would try to convince somebody at the nearest state u to me to do a study or at least write a paper..so at least you could get some hits while doing an ebsco search. really, there is very little written on this. but sites like these, with skeptics/scoffers like danny (not to be mean, but how hard is it to say prove it?), are a decided start.

    • friendthegirl says:

      hi violet: MOTR, I think, means "middle of the road" but I thought it meant "millions of tiny robots." In either case, it means mainstream AA, or, as Danny puts it, Pop AA — the AA that you will most certainly land in if you choose an AA meeting at random in any city in the world, or if you are sentenced to AA, or if some 12 step rehab prescribes AA as aftercare.

      Danny — he will clear me up if I misrepresent — is a strictly by the Big Book AA member, which means that if it's not in the 12 Steps or in the Alcoholics Anonymous book, it's not AA. So, when an AA member says, for instance, "take what you want and leave the rest," he will call balls on that because that is Pop AA, or MOTR AA — it's not in the Big Book.

      That's why it confuses the hell out of me when he seems to defend the general AA miasma that's taken over the treatment industry. On one hand, he will say it's not AA, and on the other, he'll deny that horrible shit happens as a matter of course it what he believes should not legitimately pass for AA.

      [Edited to add: etoh is alcohol]

  8. groovecat says:

    i know anecdotal evidence is the worst kind, tantamount to a testimonial. that being said, my personal experience is this: when i was popped for a dui (2nd) i got into a program called RCP, which reduces one's sentence and allows one to go home at night instead of staying in jail. i reported daily, mon-fri, 7am-3pm, to a classroom instead of a jail sentence. it was for 6 weeks, then afterwards, i had to attend 3 meetings a week for another 6 weeks, with proof via court slip. to get into RCP, as long as you were not charged with a violent felony, you qualified. again, no violent FELONIES. violent misdemeanors, however, qualified for the program of aa meetings instead of jail time. out of the 100 people in the class, only 3 of us were drinkers. the rest were all crystal meth users, and the vast majority of the men (it was a co-ed type thing) had a history of beating up girlfriends, wives, sisters and mothers. over half of the men had to take a class called "anger management", because they were charged with domestic violence, while the rest of us learned about the physical, psychological and sociological effects of drug use. we had a daily aa meeting at noon that the wife-beaters had to attend as well. they also had to attend the 3 aa meetings a week afterwards like i did. i ran into many of them at meetings. so yeah, there are convicted wife-beaters, rapists, cons and thiefs in aa. i am not one. i was stupid and decided to drive while under the influence. and on the advice of my attorney, i ended up in an aa-centric program with those people. one guy (a real meat-head) told me how he beat up his "old lady" because she didn't like him playing his sony playstation. so he beat her up so bad she had internal bleeding. did i mention that he raped her after he beat her, and laid on top of her afterwards so that she couldn't escape? and she pee'd the bed, and it was bloody? he told me this, describing it with a grin, as he showed me how he throttled her, then punched her in the kidneys. yup. those guys are in aa. court ordered. and that was just one story i was told by the perpetrator. women told me stories of stealing from dept. stores, breaking into tool sheds, stealing cars, prostituting…dealing ("slanging dope"), and NONE of them had ANY desire to stop. they just wanted to make sure they reduced their sentences to get out of jail quiker to get back out on the street.

  9. Lucky13 says:

    I don't see what the big deal is. I mean, the average Elk can talk a hooker deaf — ladies, you have nothing to worry about if you seek safety at one of their lodges. WTF are you people talking about?

    I'm sick of crybaby, butthurt women in my group whining that I'm such a jerk because I helped them work their third step. In the backseat of my car. BIG DEAL. They and I each made a decision to turn our wills and lives over for an hour or two to seek Divine Guidance through acts that are ancient and sacred. I'm sorry, OK? — sorry if some of them didn't get as much out of the experience as I did, and that most of them seem to expect that it will be an ongoing process instead of an event that I freely share with all the newbie girlmeats, and that I sometimes can't always immediately pull together enough money to pay my half of her dry-cleaning bill when she really should have been looking at her part. Of course, to be forgiven we must forgive, so I strive to forgive these women for making me pay a bit for them not knowing that they should already have their mind in gear about what they're doing down there before they engage their mouths. At least the men in group can grasp the idea of forgiveness!

    But really, ladies, enough with this babe-in-the-woods crap — I'm a human being too, you know. I'm just as vulnerable and needing love, and if a lady is up with making hammerlove on the first hangout to a man who — duh? — keeps lube and rubbers in his glove compartment, then you lose your right to use the Soiled Dove Plea when your case is tried in SHITTY-REPUTATION COURT. That I've had a dozens of these spiritual sessions/first dates that don't work out doesn't mean I'm a predator, it just means that I still have a ways to go on my journey and should NOT be judged by some dusty-snatch Harpies with 20-year coins and peeled lemons up their tightasses. The good Lord invented Azithromycin for a reason!

    Yours in Christ,
    — pierre

  10. Lucky13 says:

    By the way and for the record: that Winnipeg drunk was totally out of line, unless the woman forgot their safeword/phrase [mine is "I thirst," just like Jesus's] in the middle of some rough trade — or since she was gagged, maybe the guy didn't notice she dropped a ball or a handful of 24-hour coins or whatever BDSM Canadians do to signal a "time owwut" during gagged play. Still, that dude is an asshole.

  11. Susan says:

    If you're trying to be funny, it's not working. It is highly fucking offensive. Piss off.

  12. AndyM says:

    I think we all know that it is a practical impossibility to obtain accurate figures, given the anonymous and unaccountable way in which Alcoholics Anonymous is set up, which in itself creates an obvious potential for abuse that sets it apart from responsible organisations that have established procedures for complaints and accountability for abuses and encourage constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement.
    This pretty much leaves us with our own personal experience of AA and the public record in the press and mass media.
    The case mentioned above is far from unique, so it really should be a matter of concern to all that the rooms of AA can't be assumed to be safe places, to say the least.
    In the UK, Alcoholics Anonymous explicitly admitted this in a memo distributed to meetings warning of widespread sexual abuse of members in 2000, which was leaked to the press:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/jul/05/gerardse

  13. DeConstructor says:

    This reminds me of the Midtown Q Group.

    The silence of corporate AA on this issue is deafening. It is their alleged "good name" involved and they should have made very strong statements against these actions and behaviors.

    To think that people are incarcerated, have lost custody of children, have lost employment, and have been denied organ transplants for failing to participate and convert to this fanatical, fundamentalist, evangelical religion is itself, insanity.

  14. AndyM says:

    PS. Re a couple of the above posts, a very strange idea of what passed for "humour" was one of the reasons I found the AA experience so unpleasant.

  15. friendthegirl says:

    This wasn't the right day to skip coffee.

  16. ImaHeathenThankGod says:

    Fuck AA, and De Fund It!

  17. HB says:

    Fuck AA and stay away!  There's better ways to live a subastance free life! 

  18. violet says:

    so, i am missing something. mikeblamethenile (youtube)and mikeblamedenial (blog) are one in the same? is this blamedeial (here on stinkin thinkin) the same guy who has the blog that argues with not agent orange, but agent green. MAN, how is a girl to keep up with all of this?!!!!

  19. Mikeblamedenial says:

    <blockquote cite="comment-4898">violet:

    so, i am missing something. mikeblamethenile (youtube)and mikeblamedenial (blog) are one in the same? is this blamedeial (here on stinkin thinkin) the same guy who has the blog that argues with not agent orange, but agent green. MAN, how is a girl to keep up with all of this?!!!!  <a title="Click here or select text to quote comment" href="void(null)" rel="nofollow">(Quote)

     

     

    Hey, Violet. Mikeblamedenial and Mike of the Blamethenile Youtube channel are, indeed, one and the same person. I have never had any arguments with Agent Orange, and quite possibly did go around with Agent Green at some point.  I also post on some of the Yahoo sites:

    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/blamedenial/

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Wa

    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/EFTCoaa/

    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/without_aa/

    I have also posted extensively along with Ray on a couple of the VH1 boards, prior to them being rendered virtually useless by management. I also post on public forums, such as newspapers, whenever practical. Speedy, Ray, Tintop, and a few others here have known me on-line for several years.  Many of us spent time on 12-step-free during its heyday, as well.

  20. Murray says:

    what happened to 12 step free? I noticed their post numbers dropped astronomically over the last few years.

    I hope these people didnt pick up or go back to AA.

  21. Mikeblamedenial says:

    <blockquote cite="comment-4902">Murray:

    what happened to 12 step free? I noticed their post numbers dropped astronomically over the last few years.

    I hope these people didnt pick up or go back to AA.  <a title="Click here or select text to quote comment" href="void(null)" rel="nofollow">(Quote)

     

     Many of the regulars either got kicked off, or moved on.  I left around a year ago, and haven't lurked since, so I don't know what is up with it now.

  22. Panther4u says:

    That guy is obviously a criminal who needs to be locked up and all I hope is that his victim will find solace and (unlikely) sympathy in the rooms..the AA culture tends to blame the victim and throw back to their faces that they "don t work a good program" or to put it plainly, you had it coming…

    That said, I saw some real sluttish behavior from women too..guys who pass around a  girl like a blown up doll are male sluts and dogs but women who allow themselves to be passed around are brain dead morons with no back bones. (thinking of it, reminds me a bit of the fraternity culture).

    What do you expect when you put some screwed up males with some screwed up females together and brainwash them with some nonsense about helplessness?

    As in:

    I am an alcoholic and a sex addict and I am powerless over picking up dumb bimbos and passing on to them my STDs along with my garbage sobriety talk (after all I m godlike, I got time)

    or as in: I am a dumb chick, I am a female and I am weak but I got tits…that dude 's got "time…he'll rescue me if  I give him some….ok he used me and did not want me but maybe his friend is better…

    Just hoping I won t get barred from this site for telling it as I saw it LOL

  23. Mike says:

    The sexual predator discussion has also been taken up on http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=d….  There's a hardcore true-believer over there named Tony J who has an uncanny ability to change lemons into lemonade where AA is concerned.

  24. Susan says:

    oh, bless. good old tony j.  I especially like it when he starts to argue that it is somehow anti woman to point out that women were preyed upon in AA by Bill W. (because this takes away their agency).  Classic.

  25. MA says:

    I thought Tony was a parody when he first showed up here. No joke.

  26. Mona Lisa says:

    I wonder if ol' Tony J realizes that he is a one-man object lesson on what's wrong with AA.  Wherever he shows up, I just stand back and let him do my work for me.

  27. tintop says:

    Well, the man is a perpetrator who deserves prison time.  He can, then, go to AA from prison.  And, do other things to rehabilitate himself.  He should not be released into the general population until he has served his sentence.

  28. anonymous of course says:

    I am a member of AA and I can tell you that AA is far from being a fellowship of perfect people.  I do not at all like court mandated attendance to aa meetings.  I welcome anyone to a meeting that I maybe at without trying to figure out the reason a person is there.  In any gathering of people you have predators and  you also have people that are natural victims.  In AA you could very well find a very high concentration of both.  There are people there that have just come out prison and some there that may need to be in prison now.  There are people there that  have done unspeakable things in their life and are honestly trying to turn that around.  There are people there that have made big changes in their lives and are good people that are willing and able to help the alcoholic that stills suffers.  There are people there also that will take advantage of people that are in a vunerable state.  The same fact is true in churches, schools, shopping malls and public parks.  You have to be aware of your surroundings and the true motivations of people.  to completely put trust in someone you have just met is insane, especially in a group where there are people gathered mainly because of the problems that they have had with their substance abuse.

    There are  no security people at aa.  There are no authorities except for the group conscience.  Rarely is someone barred from a meeting unless they have proven to be disruptive or dangerous.  When we admit powerlessness, it's not powerlessness over everybody and everything, it's powerlessness over alcohol.  I have often heard people say "i'm powerless over everything" in meetings.  Well that's their choice and more than likely they may become someone's victim.  I remember a story a couple of years ago about a young man that came into an AA meeting and attempted to rob all these powerless people at gunpoint.  Well, one of these powerless people had his own pistol and blew the young man away.

    While there maybe predators in AA meetings, there are far more good people there for the sole purpose of staying sober and they accomplish this by helping others to stay sober.  I'm not much on statistics as far as the recovery rate, hell I  haven't counted them, but I know that this has worked for me.  And It has worked for others.  I've also seen people come in and out of the rooms that don't get it.  I also know that AA is not the only answer for sobriety. There are also problem drinkers that learn how to moderate their drinking and are able to stay out of trouble.  AA may not be for you.  If your drinking has become a problem and you  have a desire to stop, AA may work for you, just remember though, AA ain't a room full of saints and lord knows I'm not a saint either and have no intentions of becoming one.  I still have some charactor defects that I'm still quite fond of.

    Thanks for letting me rant on this forum that mostly has a different view than I.

  29. Hi anonymous of course,

    Thanks for bringing your perspective to the conversation. I wanted to give you a couple of things to think about:

    There are people there also that will take advantage of people that are in a vunerable state.  The same fact is true in churches, schools, shopping malls and public parks.  You have to be aware of your surroundings and the true motivations of people.  to completely put trust in someone you have just met is insane, especially in a group where there are people gathered mainly because of the problems that they have had with their substance abuse.

     

    People who go to the mall or to a bar or to the park are not showing up to these places vulnerable and broken, and while in this condition, instructed that they shouldn't trust their own thought processes (i.e. – "Your best thinking got you here." or "GOD = Group of Drunks" or "Don't think, don't drink and go to meetings." or "No one's too dumb for AA, but plenty are too smart."  – you see the pattern here?)

    Not only that, but, when someone is broken and vulnerable, willing to open themselves to whatever AA has to offer, having been told by their Doctor, for instance, or Ann Landers, that they will get HELP in AA, no one ever, ever, tells them — as a matter of course — that there may be a higher concentration of predators in AA meetings and that they should keep their guard up, just as they would in a barroom or a back alley. This is not a part of Conventional Wisdom, which has it that AA members are a benevolent and curmudgeonly bunch of wise old Wilford Brimleys.

    Rather, their first lesson is in powerlessness. It's in not trusting their own alcoholic brain to correctly interpret things. Turning over their will. It's in avoiding "stinking thinking" and letting go, and in the dangers of self-will, ego, anger and resentment. They are told to look at their own part when they have been violated or taken advantage of.

    What I'm getting at here is that AA cannot have this both ways. If you court vulnerable people, and instruct them in this way, there has got to be some oversight. The inmates can't continue to run the asylum.

  30. Well, they can and do have it both ways, I guess… Which is why this blog exists. :)

  31. anonymous of course says:

    Dear friendthegirl,

    Thank  you so much for your gracious reply to my post.  Some of the times in a blog like this when you post a different view, responses can be nasty, filled with name calling and such.  Your response is well stated and polite that triggers thought instead of rage.  I wish the debate in forums like this would stay civil and thought provoking.  I appreciated the way you presented your point of view and allowing me to post mine.

    In my close to twenty years of attending AA meetings, I have seen some awfully sick people and have heard some outrageous bull crap.  I have also met and became friends with some really good people there.  If I had followed everything I heard in a meeting, I would be a real basket case today.  I have found some truths there that have help me stay sober after weeding out a bunch of the BS that is said in meetings.

    AA is not for everybody.  I really think that it is wrong to force someone to attend AA or any other self help group through the court system.  Especially people that have real strong objections because of religous reasons.  This is something that should be fought in the supreme court.  Somewhere in AA traditions it states our public relations policy should be attraction rather than promotion and when the Judge tells you  that you have to go, well that ain't very attractive. 

    I certainly see the points in warning people about the fact that there are some control freaks, nuts, predators and plain out stupid advice that is often offered in aa meetings.  I once again thank you for allowing me to post some of my insights and treating me respectfully in responding to my post.

  32. Thanks Dan and Donald for your post. Glad to see there are others out there who agree!

    Predators abound in AA/

  33. Lucy says:

    I was in AA for decades,and I know there are nice people in it. I used to be one of them, and I was a true believer.

    However, I also know that there are a growing number of sexual and violent people who arrive through sentencing and because they know it is easy pickings. I know because I have seen the aftermath and gone to a hospital with a rape victim.

    Here is the real problem – AA goes on evangelical missions to jails and prisons and mental health centers by holding meetings in those facilities as a way to "help" people., GSO has even got pamphlets about how to conduct institutional meetings.

    But when the people from institutional meetings hurt someone (and all of the women in the group can tell you they do it all the time), AA and the members then say that AA isn't responsible for the predators who are in the meetings.

  34. SoberPJ says:

    The bottom line is you can't recruit violent and predatory people into your club without eventual problems. It is simply NOT possible to avoid issues with some people. Many turn their lives around and many do not. The notion that "we can protect our own" or "god will protect us" is simply naive. As judges, jails and prisons dump more people into AA, the number of problems will increase. Period. That is not being cynical or negative, it is being realistic.

  35. Hogwashed says:

    LOL, I see most of the negative comments people are leaving are from those who have never been to an AA meeting, or went to a few and quit going. Sounds like to me you are fear mongering over something you have no clue about, or are soured by something in your personal life, and taking it out on AA as a whole, If you're going to speak about something, get your facts straight before you comment, and stop being ignorant.

    AA doesn't recruit first of all. If somebody wants to beat their addiction on will power, then go for it and see how far you'll make it, because no one shows up at an AA meeting for coffee and conversation, so something must be seriously wrong with you if you're there in the first place.

    Secondly, AA cannot be held responsible for some deranged people that should be in jail to begin with, so why don't you take it up with the judge or jury that released these convicts. AA is a non profit organization that wants nothing but to help other suffering alcoholics, in order to help themselves.

    Thirdly, if anyone is a DR. or scientist here and has the cure for alcoholism, why are you keeping it a secret?? If not then close your lips, and get off your soap box.

    AA has been the only thing that has been closest to a "cure" for addiction since 70 years ago when it started. And was started in part by 2 doctors in addition to Bill W..

    Fourthly..Convicts are sent mandatory to AA and such programs by the judge.

    People who voluntarily go to AA have an 90 % success rate since Bill W and DR Bob started the program. It wasn't until the 60's and 70's that rehabs got their hands into the money pit that the AA message became washed and weak, and the courts starting sending convicts to it.

    AA is not really a religious program, the only thing is you believe in something greater then yourself. weather its the fellowship, the meetings, God etc. Because like I said before, If you're in an AA meeting to begin with, you obviously have some problems, and haven't been able to deal with them by yourself.

    I'd be interested in hearing rebuttals, but obviously a majority of people here are too fat headed and ignorant, to change their minds. Which I could care less, because I understand, "Ignorance is Bliss" Have a miserable day. : )

    Oh and by the way, If anyone wants to call me a big book thumper or such, I'm not necessarily in any program or belief, I just research things and experience them before i start spouting off ignorant spittle at people or about people.

    I'd take on anyone in a conversation like wise about politics, current events, or religion.

  36. Hogwashed says:

    Another AA Sexual Assault:

    Let's ADD that to a hypothetical list of :

    Another Neo Nazi crime against blacks or hispanics.

    Another Black crime against a white person.

    Another congressman crime on a woman or prostitute, then hides the body and evidence.

    Another pot smokers crime against a working class person.

    Another presidents crime against a country that didn't have nuclear weapons.

    Another cops crime against an unarmed person.

    Anyone see where I'm going with this…?

    You shouldn't be prejudice against any group as a whole, because when it comes down to it, we are all individuals, some are sicker than others. I deplore when people are that ignorant. They dont belong in the 21st century.

  37. hulahoop says:

    So Hogwashed, how many meetings did you attend for the "experience?" What kind of research did you do? Have you ever been to an AA meeting? What is your religion or are you an Athiest?

  38. Mike says:

    Uh, hogwash, did almost 2 decades in the cult and can tell you this stuff is real and has been getting worse over the years.

  39. Hogwashed says:

    Studies- College degree in criminal justice and psychology.

    Location of study- irrelevant

    Research- I research everything about everything.

    Literature- History/Psychology/Law

    Religion/Atheism- irrelevant.

    AA Attendance- irrelevant.

    Source of information- Common Sense

    HAHA@Mike- Another intelligent statement. How can you make an assumption I did 2 decades in ANYTHING if you don't know my age? Oh wait that was an attempt at humor. Gotcha!

    So I've now given you facts and sources..What's are the sources of the propaganda you're attempting to spread??

  40. Mike says:

    Hog, I obviously meant that I did almost two decades in program….

  41. @Mike: heh :)

    Hogwashed, You might not have realized this, but you made the front page today: http://stinkin-thinkin.com/

  42. Martha says:

    Some very well researched propaganda:

    http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-not_good.html

    http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

    http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness

    Common sense should tell you that a volitional behavior like drinking is not a disease, that nobody is powerless over that behavior and that a program where more than half of the steps mention God or a higher power is a religion. Common sense should tell you that a program with only a 5% success rate is an utter failure. AA does not work. It does more harm than good and our efforts and that of the Orange Papers are influencing a lot of people to quit AA or not to bother with them. Yes we are proud of that.

  43. Hogwashed says:

    Sorry never heard of "orange paper" Do you have a more reliable source then a biased anti AA website?

    Current research per the genetics of alcoholism.
    http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/genetics/a/bluwa04

    http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-10-scientists-ge

    LOL per the headline I apparently made.

    Here's the other end of the spectrum.
    http://www.green-papers.org/

  44. causeandeffect says:

    I would like to dissect all of hogwashed's previous comments, but that would require disputing each sentence of his previous rant and I'm just not in the mood today. I'm sure someone here will do an excellent job at it. I will say that hogwash most certainly doesn't research everything or he's know that those who post here have been to AA, many have double digit years in AA, as much as 35 years. And if he did any research, he's know that personal anecdotes are not enough to base any kind of conclusion that AA works. Nope, not buying that he even has any formal education or he would know the difference between anecdote and research.

  45. Martha says:

    Stanton Peele on why alcoholism is not a disease:

    http://www.peele.net/faq/disease.html

    "More critically, treating alcoholism as a disease has a negative impact. Those cultures that most regard alcoholism as a disease have the highest alcoholism rates (see my article "A moral vision of addiction"). Treatments geared towards alcoholism as a disease have uniformly the worst success (see my article, "Recovering from an all-or-nothing approach to alcohol").

    This is because they ignore individual differences and motivations and sell patients a bill of goods (based primarily on the treatment staff's personal experiences). That we continue to sell this failed product as a modern scientific advance is a tribute to long-standing American attitudes that grew up during temperance, which laid the groundwork for the American view that alcoholism is inbred and uncontrollable and that abstinence is the only answer to alcohol problems."

    http://www.peele.net/faq/disease.html

  46. Hogwashed says:

    I'd still like to hear someone with the cure for it. Is anyone funding/working a solution or know of one? I don't. Let me know when that magic pill is invented.

  47. johnny crash says:

    Poor hogwash … I used to rant like that all the time … it,s really an awakening he found this site and has a chance at free thinking and I look forward to hearing from him or her again… you can break free hogwash and find a real life away from cult life and be free to think for yourself … thats what I think this site is about … a place to think for ones self …. rigourous honesty hog on one hand you say you havnt heard about orange but on the other you have heard about green there are better ways to get attention

  48. johnny crash says:

    The cure is to grow up and be responsible … when society allows a sociopath or vagabond an out by saying your "sick" it does society no good … when they let him die they are actually doing what nature has always wanted allowing the sick to perish and the strong to survive drinking is a choice a behavior along with drugs … its up to the individual to carry themself thats the cure … all religions are based on altruism they are also all cash generators and control mechanisms … they guilt you into submission AA is guilty of it … looking for a magic pill is a stereo typical dope fiend response … an easier softer way out (you will notice hog I know all the banter think about it) I wish you well

  49. Hogwashed says:

    I never heard of either site until now actually. green nor orange. They both seem irrelevant to me. I could care less what anyone does, I don't have a problem drinking. So if you want to drink go for it, if you don't want to, go for that instead.

  50. Martha says:

    Hogwashed said: "So if you want to drink go for it, if you don’t want to, go for that instead."

    It seems you acknowledge that drinking is a choice. That is a step forward from saying it is a disease over which we have no power. Now the next step for you is to apply your above stated advice and conclude that AA is totally wrong, not needed and is in fact a hindrance to people making a decision to stop. In the end it is a choice. You stop and you have achieved sobriety.

    Abstinence is sobriety.

  51. Ben Franklin says:

    If you don't know Agent Orange or green then you have not done any research. Even Tony J isn't that ignorant.

  52. Gunthar2000 says:

    @Hogwashed… The magic pill has been invented.

    It's called naltrexone, and it's working for a lot of people.

  53. tintop says:

    hogwash, I do not need or want any advice from you. You impeached what little credibilty you have with "I could care less".

    Ben is right, not knowing about "Orange or "Green" shows your willed ignorance.

  54. causeandeffect says:

    About.com is not any authority on anything. Steppers really hate this link, dare you to read it Hogwashed!

    http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/447/1/Alcoh

  55. tintop says:

    sorry hogwash, there is no “magic pill”. Life is hard and deserve has nothing to do with it. Hate to break it tou: You quit on your own. No one does it for you. Sorrreee

  56. Martha says:

    The Sinclair Method is a treatment for alcoholism that involves the use of opiate antagonists such as naltrexone or nalmefene while continuing normal drinking habits in order to decrease the craving for alcohol over time. It relies upon a mechanism called pharmacological extinction, which works by blocking the positive reinforcement effects of ethanol-triggered endorphin in the brain.[1][2] Proponents claim that thousands of patients have been cured by the Sinclair Method since the early 1990s.[3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_Method

    Yes there is research and there are medicines being used to develop a cure. What this is adding up to is a scientific repudiation of Billy W’s superstitions. More people in the medical professions are recommending non 12 step ways of dealing with addictions. The fact that many people stop drinking because their depression is treated with medications is also becoming another nail in the coffin of AA.

  57. Mike says:

    So hogwarts manages to find this site without knowing about orange, please excuse my skepticism….

  58. TheListener says:

    Orange Papers is/was well researched and some very on tyopic quates and research studies. You can find much of the information in books written by AA Members, oldtimers and of course Bill W. He always had someone around him when meeting new attractive females, so they could make sure he didn’t end up in the sack with him. If the steps are followed, then what are the reasons that need to have any steps past three, THiNK ABOUT. The literature tells people that are suffering from mam disease to go out and try some mcontrolled drinking, makes sense to me!!!!! He was a pig, same as anyone male or female that end up sleeping with a realitive new comer. Well just invite them to your house to talk about or read the “book” a hot tub is a nice touch, you can read now about sex to them and diiscuss it and screw up another person even more. I really don’t understand the coincept of making a door know your higher power, thats like picking charlie sheen as your sponsor. Havce a good day all

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